The Housing Bubble

Try instituting social programs and tax systems that widely benefit the middle and lower classes, help our economy grow, and make us the envy of the world? And that soften the rough edges of capitalism, thus warding off an expropriating, head-severing, uprising of the proletariat?

We did try it, and it worked spectacularly.

We’ve been moving away from it- and towards a plutocratic crony capitalist state- for a while now. With predictably disastrous results.

“With predictably disastrous results.”

Not for the 1%ers. Their world is wonderful, full of Bentleys, Buggattis, giant yachts, mansions, private islands, beauty queen mistresses, etc.

And they don’t back off until its too late and the guillotines get set up.

And they don’t back off until its too late and the guillotines get set up.

Exactly. Their disaster comes later.

‘Experience runs a dear school, but some will learn in no other.’

Unfortunately, in the chaos, some Lavoisier’s will go down while some Tallyrand’s will remain. Ever thus…

lol,…“It was a pretty well accepted concept before he even could speak, out of his ra$h limpbaugh$ ar$e”

exactly.

I’ve been hearing this from my Die-Hard Ohio Republican relatives since I was a kid.

They still think Roosevelt was a closet commie, who stole from them to support worthless freeloaders…………

.as they cash their Social Security checks, and have Medicare pay their doctor bills.

I bet Rush continues on about how we need to get rid of that commie New Deal program called the Federal Crop Insurance Corporation (FCIC).

I bet you won’t find a single Republican running for president that is in favor of dismantling the FCIC. Except for Ron Paul, that is.

The FDIC is another communist New Deal program you won’t find any Republican candidates in favor of dismantling. Except for Ron Paul.

as they cash their Social Security checks, and have Medicare pay their doctor bills.

Funny how it’s not socialism when they benefit from it.

One man’s “government parasite” is another man’s “I EARNED this check…..”

Comment by In Colorado
2011-06-22 13:14:13
as they cash their Social Security checks, and have Medicare pay their doctor bills.

Funny how it’s not socialism when they benefit from it.
———————

What’s really crazy is that the most right-wing/economic libertarian relatives are the ones who are receiving the greatest benefits from this “socialism.” Almost all of them are on SS and Medicare, with some who got the last of the full public sector pensions and *healthcare for life* (which most public servants do NOT get these days).

It’s truly incredible.

FWIW I recall when Rush wore a little ribbon that was a dollar bill, to raise “deficit awareness”. Funny thing though is that none of his approved presidents and congresses ever reduced the deficit. In fact they said that deficits didn’t matter while they continued to spend borrowed money.

Locally a couple of nifty laws are going through showcasing the real aim of the GOP

1. Law preventing small brewers from distributing their own beer or that of other small brewers. The law brought to our state with the support of Miller and Coors. Please boycot coors miller Leinenkugel’s Molson adn Blue Moon.

2. Law preventing farmers from putting windmills within 1800 feet of property line, ie killing or shrinking 80% of planned wind projects. The reason they give is people don’t like looking at windmills. OK but he also passed a low rolling back rules preventing the the pollution of our lakes ie affecting everyone that lives on or swims in or fishes or lives near a lake. The real purpose of the law is to prevent competition in power generation.

The GOP is not about small gov it’s about consolidation of power and wealth. Unfortunately there are a lot of corporatist Dem’s out there as well.

The reason they give is people don’t like looking at windmills.

I don’t believe that.

The real purpose of the law is to prevent competition in power generation.

I do believe that.

Regulations favor big business.

“The reason they give is people don’t like looking at windmills.”

You got a bunch of quixotic folks out there…

Regulations favor big business.

Well that’s pretty funny. Every day the usual suspects tell me that “insane” regulations are impeding business.

The problem isn’t that the government is getting bigger.

It’s that (thanks to various policies, bought and paid for by the oligarchs/banksters/Wall Streeters/1%ers) the Main Street economy is getting a lot smaller.

So, die-hard Republicans, exactly when is the “pie going to get bigger?”

Oxide, what’s so hard to understand about it? Regulations impede business. Big business has more capital and resources to more efficiently deal with regulation, small business doesn’t. Hence, more regulation impedes small business as a higher percentage of their earnings. This is without even a hint of saying regulation is “bad”, just simple fact.

I do in fact believe “regulation” is good in many respects. Fraud should be illegal. Is that a regulation or a just law…? Not sure where it falls on the debate scale. IMHO what we need now *may be* more regulation, but we definitely can use more prosecution of Fraud. Again, IMHO, it would be best if libs/conservs and dems/repubs agreed to disagree on regulation for a while, temporarily drop the issue, then prosecute the crap out of all the fraudsters since we can all agree on that. I think this “keep them bickering over the non-issues” mindset is trying to describe both parties being two sides of the same coin.

mathguy:

I think the diff between reg and law — reg is monitored. Law comes in after the fact (prosecution)

Regulations impede business.

I like your idea of the prosecute fraud thing but the “regulation impede business” is much too simplistic in a world that is not.

For examples:
Who’s business is being impeded by anti-trust regulations? The smaller businesses that could not exist without them? No. Small businesses have historically created more jobs than monopolies therefore weakening the anti-trust laws impedes net job creation and impeding net job creation impedes even existing businesses’ ability to grow.

Does anti-trust regulation impede wealth creation? History says no. Anti-trust regs impede concentrated wealth creation but that they support the greater creation of wealth and a wider dispersement of wealth proven by the jobs creating history of small businesses vs monopolies.

Financial de-regulation caused the mess we’re in, thus impeding many businesses that have gone out of business which would not have gone out of business if the financial industry had been impeded by the prior banking regulations that were scrapped.

The financial deregulation has in fact impeded even the big banks in that they would have gone BK without the BS bailouts.

Millions of Chinese are dying from lack of environmental regulations. Dying, sickness, disease are an impediment to good health which is an necessary component for healthy businesses and sustained economic growth.

So you see, in a complicated world, regulations do not necessarily translate to a net impediment to business. Proper regulation actually enables more businesses to compete more fairly, grow more and spread the benefits of thus to parties most deserving.

So, die-hard Republicans, exactly when is the “pie going to get bigger?”

The 1%ers have all the pie they can eat.

Big business has more capital and resources to more efficiently deal with regulation.

Translation: more money to bribe Congress.

small business doesn’t.

Blue Skye said “big business.” Point not relevant.

Big business LOVES prosecutions! Rake in billions in fraud profit, make a sham show at a defense, then just pay a few hundred million dollar fee to the SEC and “do not admit wrongdoing.” JP Morgan did that yesterday. Just another business expense, like pencils. Only with a better ROI.

The GOP is not about small gov it’s about consolidation of power and wealth. Unfortunately there are a lot of corporatist Dem’s out there as well.
——————–

Too true, unfortunately.

Social Security was PUSHED as an “insurance” pool that would be capped at 1% of ONLY tax rich Americans.

Show me the Republican vote count on the major change laws making Soc Sec what it is today. It is not a Democratic “plot”.

Like every other government - it grows and grows and grows - to buy the votes of those that are on the receiving end of the re-distribution of wealth.

Redistribution? Get real….Fact: For the past 40 years the wealth has been “redistributed” from the poor and middle class to the rich. Google “Mother Jones wealth inequality” and don’t whine about “sources” because their sources are rock solid. Mother Jones is the conduit not the source.

And we are quickly approaching that brick wall.

In Soc Security? Wrong. We are not. And tax the rich more for it and your grand kids won’t hit that “brick wall”.

“Yawn - and Social Security was PUSHED as an “insurance” pool that would be capped at 1% of ONLY tax rich Americans.”

I’ll assume you meant that the payroll tax that funds SS was supposed to be imposed only on the wealthiest 1% of Americans. Not sure if that is what you meant, as the sentence doesn’t really hold together.

In any event, if that is what you meant it is FALSE. Social Security was always funded by a payroll tax.

The income tax was originally only imposed on the wealthiest Americans.

+1

Who knows? Maybe the banksters global demands for austerity while they continue to fatten their coffers might give rise to our generation’s Mao or Lenin.

They always wonder how a Chavez comes to power in a democratic state.

A quick look at history should tell them.

I would point out though that technology does allow those in power to stay in power even when the vast majority oppose or even hate them. Imagine Sadam on a much larger scale.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-06-22 08:15:58
Who knows? Maybe the banksters global demands for austerity while they continue to fatten their coffers might give rise to our generation’s Mao or Lenin.
——————-

Absolutely. Witness what’s going on all around the world with the protests and riots. People are getting pissed, and they are beginning to understand how the “capitalists” have royally screwed them over. The war is on, we’ve simply managed to placate the masses over here in the U.S. Not sure how long they will remain ignorant of what’s going on around them, and the intention of those capitalists to privatize all public assets. This is the real danger, and if we don’t wake up soon, things are going to get really ugly.

The Government must be restrained, or it will be an unbearable evil. We are too far into the unrestrained territory.

I submitted an opposition vote for restraint, did you?

Cheney-Shrub Legacy Gov’t Fiscal Reduction Act #6: “He’s obtained yellow-cake, the end is near, we must act today!”…”Hurry!, hurry!, hurry!, or this whole sucker could go down!”

“There you go. Patriotism is bad. Religious faith is bad. These bad things stand in the way of true good which is Government.”

You can stop now.

Theology cloaked as religion and nationalism(syphlitic 1st cousin of fascism) cloaked as patriotism when co-opted by moneyed elite is bad. It is the moneyed elite and their corrupt distortion of religion and patriotism that stands in the way of the greater good of average people like me and you.

The religion of choice and positive sentiment for their home land by the average person is good.

Get it yet? Get it?

You are not disagreeing with me at all.

Government is the counter-balance to religion and corporations. The latter two also used to be counter-balances to each other, but have of late almost morphed into one, both attacking the government’s power, while seeking to increase their own.

I think he meant “socialism is to communism as measles is to cancer…”

Correct, Montana. That’s how I should have worded it. Thanks.

In a healthy world, religion would counterbalance corporations and government. Belief in an authority above man takes ultimate power away from tyrants.

The catch is that religion plays out as an institution of man, which seems to require its own tyrants. One of life’s great mysteries IME.

“Belief in an authority above man takes ultimate power away from tyrants.”

Or it gets them to pipe down about their lot here on Earth in the hopes that they’ll get their just desserts in the afterlife.

Blue Sky,

Have you never heard the term “religion is the opiate of the masses” ? I was amazed to learn when I was a bit younger that it was accepted by religious historians (and the churches including Rome) that the old testament has 4 distinctly identifiable editors(J,E,D,P), that the book of Genesis is not a single manuscript by Moses, but two distinct and often differing “creation stories”, and the two of them being based on other individual works in cuneiform. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh, then genesis 1-2 and see if you can spot the similarities (and separate stories) yourself.

Not only do church leaders and clergy accept and acknowledge this, they are happy to discuss it with the laypeople. This and this alone is what most amazes me about the majority of religious zealots. So many of them have the belief that the hand of Moses guided directly from God above laid down the words of the Bible that are now our direction on earth. In years of Bible study this simple, established, agreed upon fact by their own churches never enters their realm of possibility. In fact, it was a breakthrough for me at a young age when I heard it, as oral tradition had always dictated to me that the Bible (old testament) *was* in fact the direct word of God through Moses.

Some people don’t want information, they want comfort from the harshness of this world. Their belief is their soothing comfort, that although life in this world is nasty, brutish, and short, there is something better after. The simpler and more straightforward their belief that they have a personal salvation awaiting them to take away the pain, the better. I am in no way deriding belief in a higher power. I in fact also believe in one. However, I have learned to beware of any man directing me or others to do things or believe in particulars at the direction of the word of god as written in a book, spoken by them, or interpreted by another.

I have learned that the Bible *IS* a great book, full of numerous parables of morality, and discussing complex social, political, and cultural issue. It is also full of duplication, hypocrisy, conflicting moral values, intolerance, and hate; however, even in it’s faults we can learn from it.

Anyway, sorry to rant on about this, but I always feel the need to clarify my respect for and distrust of religion, religious texts, and religious people. There is so much to learn from our history and culture, but we have to be *SO* careful that we don’t become like a majority of people currently are: lulled by religion as their moral opiate.

References (wikipedia cites further):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative#Biblical_creation_narratives_outside_of_Genesis_1-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Eli%C5%A1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atra-Hasis

mathguy,

Yes, I am familiar with that stuff. I had two majors in college, theology and engineering.

There are a few important questions that everyone must answer for themselves. A lot of stuff is largely unknowable, yet some folks want everything set neatly in concrete for them. I have yet to find someone who is fanatical about the detail of their books and laws actually practice these things themselves. LOL, religion is an opiate that can be systhesized by the consumer!

Blue Skye, it is not religion and patriotism that are bad. It is that religion and patriotism are used as a hook by bad politicians to gain control of the public dialog to their twisted ends.

Actually, the closest parallel to the Bible from the Epic of Gilgamesh is the flood story. As Gilgamesh is wandering around looking for immortality (he is really bummed out when his buddy Enkidu dies), he meets Utnapishtim and Mrs. Utnapishtim who are the Babylonian Noah and his wife. In the Epic they are immortal and tell Gilgamesh the story of the flood.

And the biblical editor hypothesis has been modified a little bit. They used to think you could use fairly hard and fast rules to divide the entire thing into one of the 4 threads including splitting certain sentences. I think that the scholars have acknowledged a little less certainty about the number of editors, etc.

Exactly Happy.

I went back and re-read. Yes, Bill is correct.

To answer Blue Skye: I said just yesterday that all government is as bad as all corporatism, so don’t take the pendulum all the way and blame it on me. And we don’t have totalitarian government yet. As for “self-appointed elitist maniacs,” I see more of them on Fox News than in the White House or Congress, since we still elect our officials.

And don’t tell me that TARP and the bailouts were government acting in “unrestrained territory.” What really happened is that banks were acting in unrestrained territory in the first place, not to mention our loophole-luvvin’ friends in the private sector. Our Great Recession was not caused by regulation. It was caused by paid-for lapses in it.

What I said was in response to what you wrote today, not yesterday, so don’t shadow box. No comment on what’s on TV, I have no idea. If you cannot see the influence of the monied interests on the actions of our “elected” officials, then of course you would not think these officials need to be restrained. We agree that corruption is problematic but not on how far it extends.

That’s exactly what my millionaire “tax expert” Big Bro’ says at least 8 times a day!

And everyone is a street hustler, looking to be a pimp.

Americathon!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078766/

If you’ve never seen this movie, you must. You would be very shocked at how this 30 yo movie is still relevant.

There are thousands of Oil City, PA’s in this country. I only chose that town because former HBB-er ‘ByeFl’ wanted to move there, with her beanie babies.

Yes, I know. Hence, the inside HBB joke.

(sorry… I know you know. I was putting that out for the lurkers.)

Funny how things like that and the Joshua Tree still provide cheap fodder for many a joke here.

Funny how things like that and the Joshua Tree still provide cheap fodder for many a joke here.

All right, who just tossed the 20-pound trout in here? Darn thing’s flopping all over the place and wants to hit someone.

And wait a minute. Geoducks! Who let those things in? Can’t you people keep the danged door shut?

I’ve always wondered about security when all our financial information is spread around “developing nations,” and our accounts are being handled by less-than-mimimum-wage workers.

Scary…

Right on, oxide.

I owned a California Corporation. It’s not hard to not pay taxes on profits.
Many large US corporations pay no tax. The rest?

———
So are you admitting that you cheated on your taxes, or that you didn’t have much profit?

So are you admitting that you cheated on your taxes, or that you didn’t have much profit?

I never cheated and I made good profits for many years. There are legal loopholes, ways to invest in your company and if you want you can even write yourself a large bonus.

Yes you will then pay personal taxes on that if you have no personal legal shelters such as retirement accounts and such but large bonuses are pretty rad.

Personally I don’t see putting money in legit retirement accounts, legit reinvesting in your business, or paying yourself a bonus that is then taxed as individual income as ‘hiding or gaming profits’ for any size corporation, but that’s just my opinion based on your examples.

I don’t see putting money in legit retirement accounts, legit reinvesting in your business, or paying yourself a bonus that is then taxed as individual income as ‘hiding or gaming profits’ for any size corporation, but that’s just my opinion based on your examples.

I don’t either but I was a small corporation and I probably didn’t have even 5% of the gaming ability as a Fortune 500 company. They can and do game the system. Or if it’s legal is it even gaming?

highest corporate taxes

GE paid zero income tax last year

Clearly you can see the different qualifiers here??? Your claim (fact or not) doesn’t invalidate what banana said. Wish to invalidate it? Then bring facts about all corporate taxes comparatively across the world rather than focusing on one specific tax that supports your argument.

Intellectual honesty and all that…

bring facts about all corporate taxes comparatively across the world rather than focusing on one specific tax that supports your argument.

Darn. But OK.

U.S. corporate income tax revenue (federal and state) as a percentage of GDP paradoxically is much lower than the OECD average — 2.2 percent in the United States versus an OECD average of 3.4 percent — over the 2000-2005 period. …the United States has the second highest combined statutory corporate tax rate among OECD countries, yet is tied with Hungary in raising the fourth lowest amount of combined corporate income tax revenue relative to GDP in 2004.

…In summary, the U.S. corporate tax conundrum of high rates combined with relatively low revenue is explained by the unusually high share of U.S. business income earned through passthrough entities,

http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/features.nsf/Articles/FE9DCA58402875D7852573680064DA50?OpenDocument

Yup. The “rates” are “high” but the loopholes are legion.

Banana…. a mild mannered, normally coherent, working class HBB’er that detaches from reality when going off topic….. and for no apparent reason.

Banana my HBB brother….. Your best moments are on housing. Stick it to it.

2banana continues to regurgitate Republican talking points. They are 95% bullchit. I can shoot holes in his arguments all day, but it doesn’t seem to make a difference.

Can you dispute the facts? I don’t know if he/she’s right or not..but just claiming you’re right isn’t sufficient. If the fact is wrong, then present facts that invalidate banana’s claim.

Can you dispute (2banana’s) facts?

I can, do, did, want to and will.

But lets face facts. 2Banana rarely uses “facts”. He makes AM radio pronouncements whereas I’ve presented about 10 facts and sources the past 2 days to counter his unsupported opinions.

“If the fact is wrong, then present facts that invalidate banana’s claim.”

GS’s point is that it has been done ad nauseum, but he continues to rebloviate the same talking points over and over and over.

Like I said, there’s not enough time in the day. Some of us have to work for a living.

Now, if someone wants to pay me my contract rate, I’ll be more than happy to shoot holes in his arguments all day long.

I used to be a Kool-Aid drinking, Red-State, Third Generation Republican. I used to actually believe a lot of the talking points.

Then I got older, and stated figuring out how the world really works.

Like I said, there’s not enough time in the day. Some of us have to work for a living.

Now, if someone wants to pay me my contract rate, I’ll be more than happy to shoot holes in his arguments all day long.

It’s your time to do with as you choose, but you appear to have no problem making plenty of other posts here…

If you’re going to post in response to someone else, and claim their facts are wrong, how about you simply withhold your post if you’re not willing to back it up with your own facts? (rather than say “you’re wrong, but i have better things to do than to actually explain why”) It’ll save you even more time in your day, and keep the signal to noise ratio higher for the rest of us.

If you’re going to post in response to someone else, and claim their facts are wrong, how about you simply withhold your post if you’re not willing to back it up with your own facts?

Drumminj you are funny. Ulike X-GSfixr you rarely post anything that can be well supported by facts and sources. You dodge, you weave, you deflect but your specialty is finding an outlier - an anomaly. You then use that outlier and anomaly to attempt to debunk larger issues that are based on facts and sources containing much more importance to the issue than your outliers.

Everything X-GSfixr said today pertaining to 2banna’s talking points were based on facts. How do I know? Because I listed the facts and sources today to debunk every 2banana point that X-GSfixr addressed.

I think you want to discredit X-GSfixr’s posts by using a version of your tactic I described in my paragraph one. The reason I think you are doing this is because his posts are powerful and based on common sense that is a real threat to your position and a definite threat to hollow nonsense, no matter how shrewd of tactics are used to spout it.

If I have to start adding footnotes to every one of my posts, I guess I’m done with blogging. And I didn’t realize I had to back up common sense.

And besides, I can’t figure out this “Tinyurl” thingie.

As far as “facts”, there are no such things anymore. It’s all been replaced with “spin”. About all I buy into anymore is the stuff I see with my own set of Mark I eyeballs.

For whatever reason, he has a real hard-on for public sector union members. And “over-regulation”.

They may be Big Problems #1 and #2 in his world, whatever/wherever that is. Around here, “union parasites” are about “Problem #785″ on the priority list.

As far as “over regulation”, he seems to share the Republican attitude/view that “the crooks can figure out ways around the regs quicker than they can be made, so why regulate anything?”.

My experience is that the people that bitch the most about regulations are the same ones whose behavior caused the creation of the reg to begin with.

If I have to start adding footnotes to every one of my posts, I guess I’m done with blogging.

Don’t stop. Don’t even think about stopping. That’s the goal.

If I were supporting untenable positions or an agenda I would want you to stop too because common sense well explained and based on experience is dangerous to untenable positions.

X-GS..this thread is about corporate taxation, not unions, not over-regulation, not republican vs democrat.

Let’s look at the original comment:

Also - once upon a time, America didn’t have the highest corporate taxes in the world*, didn’t have an out of control tort system and didn’t have insane regulations/laws that make it nearly impossible to do any kind of business here other than pushing paper.

So you’re suggesting it’s “common sense” that this is false? And that there are no facts to either support or rebuke this claim - just spin????

You’re a rant machine. You share valuable personal anecdotes, but when someone makes an assertion you disagree with, you attack personally, or simply say “nuh-uh”. The discussion at hand is one that can certainly be grounded by facts. If that’s not something you care to do, then please, don’t try stating someone’s wrong, or just “spouting talking points” when they make a falsifiable assertion.

Seriously. All you did was attack banana personally. Either refute the claims, or lay off please.

you rarely post anything that can be well supported by facts and sources. You dodge, you weave, you deflect but your specialty is finding an outlier - an anomaly. You then use that outlier and anomaly to attempt to debunk larger issues that are based on facts and sources containing much more importance to the issue than your outliers.

You just described drumminj perfectly.

“My experience is that the people that bitch the most about regulations are the same ones whose behavior caused the creation of the reg to begin with.”

+1

Why do we have to compare Corporation tax rates World wide ?
If the USA base Companies want to operate here than they pay what is levied or pay a import tax for operating outside the United States whereby they seek a advantage .
Same debate can take place regarding wages . If a USA base Company wants to outsource ,than they need to pay a tax for the money and tax base they are taking outside this Country .
I also think if a USA Company want to out-manufacture ,than they should pay a import tax like any foreign Country should pay .

As it stands now the Corporations play any game that yields higher profits and that becomes a World monopoly game .
To think that Corporate America can command the purchasing power of USA citizens ,while gutting the job base
and not pay the toll for taking money ,jobs and tax base out of America is the real issue .
If you want 50cent labor than your going to have to pay
big time import fees to offset the destruction to you home
base Country . Corporations might think the World is their oyster ,and they can play all the systems against each other ,but that’s not the way it should work .

Well said, Wiz.

I would agree that we need regulation to PREVENT things like QE and TARP and HAMP. But it’s too late for prevention.

I don’t think any of us would disagree with you, mathguy.

Yes, they need to be held **personally** accountable for their actions. No question about it.

Homeowners to me are becoming more and more like the goats chained down inside the Tyrannosaur pen in “Jurassic Park”

+1, Nice visual.

“Homeowners to me are becoming more and more like the goats chained down inside the Tyrannosaur pen in “Jurassic Park”

Homeloaners to me are becoming more and more like house guests that have been with you for 3 to 5 years and spend their money on whatever they want because they haven`t had to make a house payment for 3 to 5 years. Then, they complain about you because you will not admit that you were wrong for letting them stay in the first place and won`t sign something that says they can stay forever even though due to circumstances beyond their control, they had involuntary unemployment, underemployment or an illness.

+1. All these FBs bleat that about being the victims of “predatory lenders” or the economy. Victims, my a$$.

Because liquidity is fairly easy to solve by extending the term of a loan or by providing a bridge loan to cover the time frame of the liquidity problem.

Solvency is much harder to figure out.

Hey, maybe that is what IMF Chief Barbie can say.

“Solvency problems are hard.”

Around here, it came as a kind of collective realization/light bulb moment, back in the summer of 2008, when gas prices hit $4.00 plus for the first time.

It was like most people said “Eff it”, and went into the (financial) bunkers.

It finally dawned on a lot of people that the more-work-for less-money trend was not only continuing, but accelerating.

And that there were only so many people stupid enough to pay $200K for crapshaks on the High Plains.

I used to think J6P was mostly ignorant and misinformed. Now, after the re-election of G.W. Bush and the 2008 election between Appalling and Ghastly, I sadly conclude that J6P is congenitally stupid.

Yeah, we should have never invested (as a government) in that crazy Apollo moon thing. Didn’t make any economic sense. Of course, we received Tang as a result, so I guess it wasn’t a complete failure.

Bad news, cabana boy, most of the major technologies today didn’t make economic sense UNTIL the government paid for the up-front costs.

Hydroelectric Dams
Interstates
Rural electricity
Rural telephone
Satellites
Cell phones
Clean water
Clean air
Medical research
Space exploration
Modern agriculture

Shall I continue?

Dude you forgot the internets. And nuclear power (mixed bag). And airplanes, which were largely supported by the Post Office and the Wars.

Have you drank so much cool-aid that you think America had NO

Dams
Roads
Electricity
Telephone
Satellites
Cell phones
Clean water
Clean air
Medical research
Modern agriculture

Before government got involved? Really?

There is a place for limited government in America. Unfortunately, right now, government spends 50% of its budget on entitlements and 20% on the military. Everything you bring up is in the “noise” part of government.

I would be more than happy to shrink government so that the stuff you hold dear and think America could not do with a huge government would make up more than the noise.

Government should not choose winning companies. The fact that Tesla got a massive government loan (or was that Solyndra…or both) is appalling to me. There is plenty of capital being deployed into green tech without the government giving money or loan guarantees to specific companies.

What California did to support green tech was pretty interesting though. They gave a sales tax break for any business specifically for the purchase of equipment that was to be utilized to manufacture green technology in the state.

They didn’t pick a winner within the green tech industry, but they did pick an industry and are working to support it. Only companies that have an economically viable product will ultimately survive…as it should be.

The tax breaks are relatively small compared to the dollars invested by private companies in developing the technology (the risk lies mainly with private industry). I wonder how many “green tech” companies have taken advantage of the tax break…

Saying that solar power is not economic is perhaps the stupidest thing ever uttered on this blog, and yes I remember Eddie. I think I’ll have my sandwich now. Oops, no solar power, so no life on planet Earth. But it’s not economical.

Why must you keep bottoming for the corporatists?

most of the major technologies today didn’t make economic sense UNTIL the government paid for the up-front costs.Hydroelectric Dams Interstates Rural electricity Rural telephone Satellites Cell phones Clean water Clean air Medical research Space exploration Modern agriculture

2banana, Your points about corporate taxes being “highest in the world” and the New Deal being a Democratic “plot” and now “only free markets develop technologies” were debunked today….with history, logic, examples and facts.

Question: In your book, do history, logic, examples and facts ever trump rigid, one-sided, (and failed) political dogma and ideology?

From the mind of Minolta x1slipperysplitbanana

My EE Husband is looking into replacing my 1995 Volvo (when a worthwhile car comes out), and he found this interesting website that shows you the upcoming fleet of plugins. The Tesla Model S is a beauty (Jaguar looks) with great technology, but the price is steep.

http://www.plugincars.com/cars

I think the 0 to 60 time is 4-5 seconds so a little faster than the civic. If that’s what you are into.

The model S I believe also has room for 5 adults and 2 kids

It’s a car. It doesn’t have seating for 7.

The website mentioned an optional rear-facing third row.

Yeah, that’s fine while sitting in your garage.

I’m thinking more about 5pm after a long day in the cubicle.

The problem (as usual) is that what the people on the coasts want ends up being crammed down the throats of the BFE residents. There’s probably more cars in southern California than there are in all the states between the Rockies and the Mississippi.

The auto OEMs sure as hell aren’t going to tailor cars/trucks for our needs/priorities. So we’ll end up having to buy whatever they sell in California, no matter how poorly suited they are to conditions out here.

Which gets back to the income-differential thing: Nobody has the income to pay for a $80K car out here…….Hell, nobody can afford $30K cars out here.

Nobody can afford these cars there either, or nobody that can afford them wants them. They’ve only sold 1500 in like 5 years. And they have dealerships!?

I’m thinking more about 5pm after a long day in the cubicle.

Me, too. I asked my company if I were to buy one if they’d let me plug it in while I was at work. They acted like they wouldn’t have a problem with that. I realize not everybody works at a place where that would be practical.

Everybody has different needs and priorities…I think there are a ton of people who commute a short enough distance to be able to use one, but far enough to spend a significant amount on fuel each month. I think most of them could deal with the weather issues. The biggest problem in my mind is the cost. They should be cheaper than a good gasoline car, not more expensive.

“They should be cheaper than a good gasoline car, not more expensive.”

I did a quick fuel cost calculation for my work commute via motorcycle. $1.90 RT. And fun as hell (When it’s not raining).

Wow, I did not know that. However, I’m a little bit north of Bradenton. My river is the LITTLE Manatee River, not to be confused with the Manatee River.

Of course, with all the illegal immigrants and their spawn around these parts, plus the massive development of the area, I have my doubts that the Little Manatee is the the pristine waterway it once was.

Invasive species.

Another “privatize the gains, and socialize the losses” program, brought to you by Wal Mart, and their “Globalization is Good” Camp-Followers/fluffers.

Too bad we can’t have a few “invasive species” go back in the other direction……

I nominate “Homo Sapien Financicus”

A “giant outsourcing company” gaming the system.

Shocked, I am……

Sure. An “expanding federal investigation” to be followed by the usual slap on the wrist as long as the requisite political contributions keep flowing.

And let them just continue to live in their own houses since that’s cheaper anyway.

Google story of the man that robbed a bank for $1.00

Maybe he already blew through his savings on medical care that didn’t work.

There are auto immune diseases where the treatment costs 5-10k a month, and that’s just for drugs.

You are against tax payers having to help this man but you suggest that a doctor should foot the bill. This makes me laugh. That being said I”m sure there are doctors who would see him for 100 or less, what then. He might order an MRI or an expensive medication. Then what??

All of a sudden the libertarian utopia falls apart

Anyone know of a professionally-managed pool that invests in these certificates? I could potentially be interested, since it seems like the collateral has to be worth many multiples of the investment value. I don’t have the time to invest personally, file for liens, etc. Or does anyone here have experience with how much work it actually takes?

Some counties, with less desirable property, may sell only half of their unpaid bills, leaving holes in the budgets of cities, schools and agencies. Historically, Palm Beach County’s tax collector has sold about 98 percent of the county’s delinquent taxes.

The auction is handled by Plantation-based Realauction.com, and beginners are warned that the bidding process is complicated. The website, http://www.palmbeachtaxsale.com, opened Tuesday for people to register and review the properties that have tax certificates up for bid. Training on how to bid is available through the website.

“You have to understand what you are bidding for or you could end up with a certificate on a property you can’t use,” said Larry Alexander, a West Palm Beach real estate attorney.

For example, the property could be too small, lack utilities or access, or have hazardous waste on it.

“Generally, you want to look at size. If it’s a buildable piece of property, then you should be in good shape,” Alexander said. The homeowner has two years to pay the investor the back taxes and reclaim the certificate or the investor can file for a tax deed on the property. Typically, if a bank forecloses on a home it will pay off the back taxes to the certificate holder.

I heard a pitch for a tax-lien fund through Northern Trust a while back, but it’s pretty specialized, and for the most part, only open to the ultra-wealthy/pension fund type clients. Such investing can be done well, or not. Done well, seems like a great risk/reward. Done poorly, well, who knows?

I like the concept as well, but was not in a position to pull the trigger.

To paraphrase an old joke:

“In Soviet America, you don’t own house, house owns YOU!”

poor = pour

I just got corrected on tract house yesterday.

You’re stories really give me hope, oxide.

Like you, we live in a “bullet-proof” area, where prices haven’t dropped all that much since the bubble peaked.

Just this year, we have had the slowest “spring selling season” I’ve seen in over a decade.

Hopefully, it is finally going to happen for those of us who have waited so long!

Conspicuous consumption is nothing new. Now if he could have figured out how to poop gold into it that would be something.

That old fashioned plug-in phone won’t work if your phone service is provided by the cable company. The box that’s plugged into one of your phone jacks needs AC power to operate.

Cell phone.

“The cost of healthcare would go down if more people were required to come out of pocket in a significant way for their own care.”

(In a Ronnie Reagan voice) Well…

We were forced in to HMOs and copays (which kept growing) with the promise of controlling costs.

It didn’t happen.

Now we are being herded into high deductible plans, because as “savvy consumers” we’ll find the best deals in healthcare and drive prices down.

It’s not happening. Even though the family Doctor is getting as lonely as the proverbial Maytag repairman, he isn’t lowering his prices. Non generic prescriptions are as expensive as ever.

And I don’t think college prices will come down. Financially weak private schools will fold and those that survive will cater to the minority that can afford them, everyone else will go into a waiting list to get into the local State U.

Heck, I’m already seeing waiting lists. The school of nursing at the University of Northern Colorado has a 3 year waiting list for admission into their Bachelor of Nursing program.

“TrueDeceiver’s™” live yet for another generation at beachfront hotel$!

forced in to HMOs and copays (which kept growing) with the promise of controlling cost$.

It didn’t happen.

forced in to HMOs and copays (which kept growing) with the promise of controlling costs.

It didn’t happen.

forced in to HMOs and copays (which kept growing) with the promise of controlling costs.

It didn’t happen.

It didn’t happen.
It didn’t happen.
It didn’t happen.

Medical Industrial complex Inc.’$:
Profit$! Profit$! Profit$!

“TruePatriotCEO™” : “look, look at those numbers I got for you all, OK now, $hows me the bonu$ monie$!”

A $10 or $20 or $50 copay doesn’t make a bit of difference in making economic decisions for items that cost thousands of dollars. In fact, it sounds like you are getting a deal. A lot more of extraordinary costs–IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES–need to be seen by the consumer.

I’m not talking about an appendectomy for an 8 year old, or cancer treatments. I’m talking about end of life care, and tests and/or procedures that ultimately have little value based on the facts and circumstances.

A large percentage of health care costs occur at end of life. A colleague recently recounted a story from a friend where a brain surgery was done on a 90+ year old man in a teaching hospital, who was at the end of his life. The surgery wasn’t expected to do much, and it didn’t. Medicare paid.

If the family was required to pay a significant portion of such procedure, they would have likely sat next to grandpa and let him go in peace and not spent the government’s money on a procedure that was highly unlikely to make any reasonable difference.

Likewise for all sorts of extraordinary measures at the end of life (life support, ventilators, etc., etc., etc.).

THIS is where most of the difference in costs are when you compare the US to the rest of the world (end of life care, not choosing the generic antibiotic over the brand name).

I personally have experienced at least one time where a doctor performed an expensive test on a relative (after a human measurement suggested a small possibility of a problem, and the first less expensive machine test showed no problem) for no other reason than the fact that there was a cool new machine and that insurance covered it. The doctor literally checked to see if our insurance covered the test before deciding to proceed. If insurance didn’t cover the test, I can tell you that we would have passed on the test, but since it was paid for, we shrugged our shoulders and said “why not?”. There was already tort reform in CA, so the doctor didn’t suggest the test to cover himself.

All those little decisions matter, not “shopping around”.

If you don’t see the cost of something, you will tend to overconsume it. This is true with food. This is true with healthcare. This is economic fact.

A lot more of extraordinary costs–IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES–need to be seen by the consumer……I’m talking about end of life care, and tests and/or procedures that ultimately have little value based on the facts and circumstances.

I agree. But how can Americans have a rational conversation about this when who’s ox it gores effectively propagandizes that curtailing these practice is akin to “death panels”?

This is economic fact.

I been to the hospital as an observer of things, watched how things went…never, ever, saw anyone say: Hey wait, what are you doing those x4 long-named test$ for? how much is each one? of the x4 tests which is the one most likely to give you a clue? who says they are needed? why? who are you? Nor have I ever observed a Doctor walk over and say listen this is what we would like to attempt to do, here’s why. It might be pricey, here’s a rough estimate. Does the cost$ of our efforts have any concern to you financially?

These are the eCONomical fact$.

A large percentage of health care costs occur at end of life.

Does the Medical Industrial Complex Inc. utilize demographic$ concerning their potential client$ patient$? If so, is it’s main purpose to improve the health of American’s while lowering the costs to the end-user?

Daily, …Millions of American people sick, ill, wounded, diseased…ver$e$… the hordes of aged 90+ elders that are sucking the financial life out of Gov’t paid health issuance.

I think he means that he should have saved some money outside of the pension system if he wanted to be safe. It’s the same reason I’d never dump my entire retirement fund into a single annuity. There’s too much counterparty risk. At the very least you should spread it around between multiple annuities and ideally you’d own some stocks, bonds, cash, commodities, etc. You don’t have to be able to predict the future to manage your risk. The fact that you can’t predict the future is exactly why you need to understand and manage your risk. This guy didn’t do that at all and now a black swan type event occurred and he’s screwed.

I also don’t invest any of my 401k funds in my own company’s stock and I immediately diversify the company match. I already rely on that company for my paycheck so also having my retirement tied to it’s success is too many eggs in one basket. Most people say that’s overly conservative, but I also won’t be crying if my company goes under and the stock becomes worthless. I don’t have to be able to predict the future to guard against an event like that, I just have to understand where my risks are and manage them. If you choose not to do that then you pay the price if something happens.

Why not have a minimum level of healthcare provided by the government? Mostly preventative care and diseases/conditions that aren’t caused by lifestyle choices. So if you smoke and you get lung cancer, too bad, you’re not covered. If you’re overweight and you get diabetes, too bad, you’re not covered. So if you make good choices and take decent care of yourself, then your healthcare is covered by the government. If you don’t, then you’re on your own.

We’d have to be willing to actually turn people away that shouldn’t be covered (which we haven’t shown we’re willing to do to this point), but why can’t something like that work? You still have your freedom to make unhealthy choices, but you also have to pay for the consequences on your own. Sounds very American to me.

I have been advocating for infectious disease and emergency care to be provided by the government, basically public health issues and accidents. When you have an emergency, there is no meaningful choice. You go to the nearest facility.

Infectious disease impacts everyone - rich or poor, insured or not.

Let the free market handle everything else where there is meaningful choice and time to make informed decisions.

You can have you confirmation bias and I’ll have mine. Perhaps you were nearly run down by a cyclist and you are more inclined to notice the law-breakers. Perhaps I hate cars and think, “Wow, look at all these cyclists, most of whom are following the rules of the road.” Who knows?

Wait a minute. Did you say 50%? Forget what I said before. That is outrageous histrionics.

MrBubble

PS: There are stop signs that I will “blow” once I come to the intersection and see that there are no cars waiting or arriving contemporaneously and no people, more like a yield and I can see the legitimacy of stopping at a red light and then proceeding through with caution like a stop sign if the intersection is clear as are legal in Boise, ID although I don’t do that. It takes a lot of energy overcoming the inertia of my pachyderm-like frame, while motorists merely tap a pedal (which injures a US service person overseas… oooh low blow!).

Going mounted in crosswalks and sidewalks are a no go though.

You can have you confirmation bias and I’ll have mine.

While we certainly each will, you hopefully will recognize it’s entirely possible that there are different cultures where I live vs where you live. Perhaps bicyclists are very well-behaved by you. My observations of the area here is they are not.

And I’ve never had a bad experience with a cyclist, other than knowing I have to drive super-defensively when they’re around. Even when I KNOW they have a stop sign, I am rarely proven wrong when I anticipate that they won’t stop and will simply blow through the intersection.

It’s that damned Grunge music!

On my regular commute from Marin to SF, we are a bunch of old-fogey law abiding bikers. Apparently, there was a bunch of ticketing before I moved to the area, so you only see the occasional rolling stop and I did follow suit. In the Mission, in SF, with the younger crowd, you see a bit more rolling stops and stop and go’s at red lights, the occasional sidewalk rider and the occasional super-flagrant hill bomb.

I appreciate your driving with caution. This morning, one driver swung wide left in front of me and I got the vibe that she was going right. Last minute blinker (blinkers are pretty rare) but I was already braking. Nobody actively trying to kill me, which has happened. Still doing it again tomorrow.

If we get to the stop at the same time, I am not doing a full stop, feet unclipped, etc. and I’m going ahead of the car. Drivers just have to lift their foot/feet while I have to make my fat azz go. They can wait two seconds ’cause once they get past me, they won’t have to deal with me again. They actually should really appreciate one fewer car in front of them riding the brakes, looking for the entrance to Arby’s or behind them tailgating or texting in front of them when the light’s been green as bikers haul by them.