A Time Bomb For People On The Edge
Readers suggested a topic on mortgage brokers and lenders. “Here In Northern Ohio things seem to continue on a downhill slide. Local bank refuses to extend a small HELOC that I’ve had for 30 years. They wring their hands and say the government rules wont let them make any exceptions. I used a credit card to pay it off; interest went from 3.75 to 10.5 but avoided $800 in fees and an 8 percent rate. Bank would not let me talk to the local branch people I’ve dealt with. Made me call an 800 number and talk to some strong arm type in Reno. Wanted all new info, last two pay stubs, last two years IRS filings, with attachments, photo ID, electronic appraisal, in person hard appraisal.”
“Told them to take a hike, canceled the loan request and paid it off. Four days later they send a form letter saying my loan was denied. Maybe they want to charge me for having the audacity to ask for a loan. This may be a time bomb for people on the edge whose 10 year HELOC’s are coming due. Had my balance been $60K ( like a lot of people around here) instead of a measly $8K I’d have walked. The young branch manager I talked to when I paid it off said they’re seeing more and more of these denials. He didn’t know the outcomes; headquarters keeps them in the dark. When I advised him to get his resume up to date he went pale. His goodbye handshake was ice cold.”
“True story: how I contributed to the housing bubble: In 2004 I got a job as an originator with TARP bank. Our primary product was HELOCs, also fixed-term equity loans (the phrase ’second mortgage’ was never used) and credit cards. We got $8/hour+ commission. Things went really well at first and the commission dollars started to roll in.”
“It was a pleasant surprise to sell a customer a new HELOC and then have the appraisal come back higher than expected (because of rising house ‘values’) and offer them a higher credit line which meant higher commissions for me. We called existing HELOC customers with unused credit and convinced them either to roll over credit card balances to the HELOC or just to go out and spend on it, even offering to mail out a book of checks tied to the account.”
“Greenspan started raising interest rates every six weeks throughout 2005, and the HELOC rates (80% LTV: prime, 90% LTV: prime+1, 100% LTV: prime+2 for 720 and above credit scores) could no longer compete with conventional mortgage rates, and my commissions started dropping. I moved over to a salaried processor job before leaving TARP bank to start grad school in 2006.”
“While there were a few customers that I may have ‘helped’ by rolling their 20% APR credit card balances to a 5.5% HELOC, I wonder how much economic misery I am indirectly responsible for causing, how many divorces, bankruptcies, etcetera. Nobody I worked with then still works for TARP bank, and other then the commission checks when we were high-rollers, it was one of the worst jobs I ever had.”
A reply, “What caliber gun did you hold to their head to make them take the money?”
The St George News. “In October 2008, while working on the oil fields in Vernal, Utah, Anneliese Freeman-White found a lump in her left breast. When her doctor told her it was breast cancer, she didn’t immediately tell her husband or other family members. The first thing she did was call Wells Fargo, the holder of her mortgage and home equity loan. ‘Before I even told my family that I had cancer I called Wells Fargo,’ Freeman-White said. ‘I told them I needed to get my home loan modified, and that I’m going to need help because I was [the] main supporter of my family.’”
“Freeman-White and her husband bought the property and paid a contractor to build the house in 2004 for a total of $138,000. They put $30,000 down in cash – money they’d gotten from a settlement for her husband’s failed back surgery. In 2007 Freeman-White and her husband also took out a home equity loan with Wells Fargo to build a fence and landscape their yard. They only needed $15,000 to cover these expenses but the loan officer convinced them to borrow $45,000.”
“‘We were stupid,’ Freeman-White said. ‘We should have said ‘no, we’ll just get what we need to build the fence.’”
The Journal Sentinel. “Welcome to Arizona, real estate’s death valley. This is where Marshall & Ilsley Corp., the once-great Wisconsin bank company, and many other lenders lost billions of dollars when the real estate bubble burst, throwing countless homes into foreclosure, some with mortgages in the millions of dollars.”
“‘M&I became the place to go for construction loans and lot loans,’ said Jay Luber, owner of Galaxy Lending Group, a large Phoenix mortgage broker. ‘They were very aggressive. They had good rates and good programs.’”
‘Unfortunately, M&I targeted two market segments that are especially volatile, said Jay Josephs, owner of a Phoenix appraisal company that did work for M&I. ‘The worst segment of them all is the custom lot, and the second-worst is the luxury home, and (M&I’s) strategy focused on those two strategies,’ Josephs said. ‘ . . . It’s no wonder they’re in the positions they’re in.’”
“M&I’s prowess in writing loans stood out in some undeveloped areas of metro Phoenix because many other lenders - with the exception of the National Bank of Arizona - shunned those areas. M&I, which went from having 14 branches in Maricopa County in 2000 to 45, needed the loan revenue. ‘They decided, ‘We’re going to grow in Arizona - we have a bunch of branches now we need the loans,’ said Michael Thorell, president and CEO at the Pinnacle Bank in Scottsdale. ‘They had to support that growth, and the only way banks can make revenue is with loans.’”
“Some of the areas targeted by M&I are desolate - a few homes scattered amid dirt roads and undeveloped lots. ‘I go out there, and I see vultures. . . . You really see vultures,’ Brett Barry, a Realtor with about 20 years’ experience, said after reviewing one area north of Scottsdale that has properties foreclosed by M&I and other lenders. ‘People, many of them wealthy, were saying, ‘Hey let’s buy a piece of land, and when our kids are out of the house we could build a house there,’ Barry said.”
“It’s quite a change from a few years ago, when some areas outside Phoenix were flooded with people like the Lockwoods, driving prices up in their search for the perfect piece of land. ‘Everything just went to hell,’ Victor Lockwood said with a sigh during an interview in the couple’s spacious living room. ‘I just want out of this mess.’”
“The Lockwoods’ dream began to collapse in 2009 when Victor, 71, a tool and die maker, had health problems that prevented him from working. And Rita, 61, who deals poker at a casino, lost several months of work because of a broken wrist. M&I has rejected an extension of a loan modification, so when their interest rate and payments increase next year, they expect to lose the home - and move into a trailer across the dirt road.”
“‘What other choice do we have?’ Rita asks.”
“M&I will lose, too - the Maricopa County assessor values the home now at $390,000, about $200,000 less than the mortgage.”
“While there were a few customers that I may have ‘helped’ by rolling their 20% APR credit card balances to a 5.5% HELOC, I wonder how much economic misery I am indirectly responsible for causing, how many divorces, bankruptcies, etcetera. Nobody I worked with then still works for TARP bank, and other then the commission checks when we were high-rollers, it was one of the worst jobs I ever had.”
Rolling a 20% debt into a 5.5% debt is usaully a good thing. That is - if you have a plan to pay off the 5.5% debt and not charge up the credit cards again. If no plan - bad idea to take unsecured debt and pledge your house to pay it off.
The divorces and bankruptcies would have happened anyways - at 5.5% or 20%…
This is a messed up part of the housing bubble. I worked on a house in foreclosure here locally where the previous elderly owner had passed away. It had been vacant for a couple of years before the company that bought the loan actually took possession. It was completely froze up, rotten food everywhere. Over the days I spent there, the neighbors told me a story about a man who was living by himself. Often they would have to escort him home as he would get lost. I don’t know exactly what happened, but in the course of working there, I did see a shiny new Ameriquest credit card and a bunch of checks from the same company. I didn’t even know there were Ameriquest credit cards.
So who’s at fault for the foreclosure? The man who took the loans? Was he of sound mind? Did he really need the money? Was his family involved in any of the decisions? Does it matter now that he’s gone?
We also issued cards linked to the HELOC account, minimum charge of $100 or pay a $5 fee. Scrolling through some existing account-holders transactions I saw charges at McDonalds (+ $5), Starbucks (+ $5), et cetera (+ $5).
“…charges at McDonalds (+ $5), Starbucks (+ $5), et cetera (+ $5)…”
OMG!
Most likely they never read the small print or looked at their bills…
“Rolling a 20% debt into a 5.5% debt is usaully a good thing.”
WRONG.
It’s a horrible decision ALWAYS when it collateralizes your shelter.
If you rolled your student debt into a home then defaulted is that ok?
Perfect sentence.
In one statement you summarized a lot of our ills.
Corporate offshoring didn’t help either.
“I wonder how much economic misery I am indirectly responsible for causing, how many divorces, bankruptcies, etcetera.”
While I admire this writer’s sense of personal responsibility, I doubt he (or she) put a gun to any of the HELOCked borrowers’ heads to force them to take out those loans…
But I don’t doubt that there was a figurative gun put to his own head. Coffee is for closers.
Ox:
Yup, no sales no job….why do you think they hired cute little airhead chickypoos, and gamer guys? Don’t think just DO.
“They wring their hands and say the government rules wont let them make any exceptions.”
This is kind of an interesting comment. It could, of course be corporate policy to vaguely blame the government for their own self-serving decisions, but they might be subject to regulations that mean they have to cancel loans they think are not at risk.
One interpretation is that that the bank is way over exposed to local real estate compared to their reserve assets and they have been told to diversify or have to do something “awful,” like figure out what a mark-to-market value of the loans would be.
My guess is that headquarters has chugged some numbers on the default trend in the area and it is ordering the pull back based on what they think the regulators would do if the trend continues, so part self serving with a small hint of truth.
Telling the guy to update his resume was a good call. Some day these banks are going to have to start closing branches. They will start in places where loans are being closed out, not originated. Why use an employee for that when the employees have no discretion to make decisions?
“Telling the guy to update his resume was a good call.”
I have seen the future and it belongs to the collectors. This guy is screwed unless he can learn to play hardball - which is unlikely.
Which means he should seek employment in a field other than finance.
Just wait until the Credit Risk Retention regulations go into effect. Lending will likely come to a screeching halt again.
Polly we are over banked in America anyway so closing 1/4 to 1/3 of the branches probably wont matter much…except to the employees and dumping lots of commercial real estate on the market
they probably have in every major city a different bank on every corner just like gas stations.
“Polly we are over banked in America anyway”
One of the GCs I do work for has a 60 something year old laborer type guy who has worked for him for years. Every time I see him I say “Hey Vinnie how`s it going” and almost every time he responds… Not to good, I went to the bar last night and the bartender over poured me.
I agree we are over branched since the branches were largely created in a tragedy of the commons situation where the banks were desperate for the origination fees and not having a branch in places where people were willing to take out loans meant that the other guy was going to get that fee. And the $2 or $3 a transaction on the ATMs wasn’t a bad deal either (plus fees for over withdrawals).
I’m not so convinced we are over banked. I’d like to see more small and medium sized banks and see the giant ones break up. Small difference, I know, but a difference all the same.
So let’s look at the pair of Einsteins:
1. Rita 61,
2. Victor, 71
3. tool-maker and casino dealer
5. bought a $590K house in Phoenix “a few years ago” (during the 2008 financial crisis?)
6. On a dirt road
7. across the street from a trailer park
8. Mortgage rate and payment about to increase (likely 3-year I/O reset)
For HBB, that’s an entire Old Country Buffet of raw meat. Have at it.
So when will the government start backing loans to buy coffins?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43645168/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/
Obama picked up more than 90% of the Black vote, but hope ‘n change isn’t working out as well for them as it is for Wall Street.
Holy suffering $hit where do you start with these whining losers????? Boo faawkin hoo. Live in a trailer bitch. We did. Carl Morris does and I’ve even lived in a 20×7′ RV just to get by.
These are the same arrogant A-holes that looked over their glasses at me and Mrs. RAL when we lived in a single wide. We lived in a single wide because we *wanted* to. We knew it was our best option. Now I’m working on a half million in the bank. Now it’s your turn you POS.
yeah man, it amazes me too that living in a trailer is NEVER EVER an option for these peeps….
And of course no reporter is going to suggest that either…..
Exactly. The horror of it all!!!
In fact I’m going back to living in a RV starting tomorrow. Half the folks at the RV park I set up at yesterday are doing exactly what I’m doing…. working. It’s a tough adjustment for family to make but I’m a bit more fortunate as I can commute back to the homestead on Friday afternoons.
We looked into this. Here in San Diego to discourage this behaviour you have to move every 6 months…
When I was younger, we used to drive through the “rich people neighborhoods.” The streets and landscaping were immaculate, and there were usually real barriers between good and bad neighborhoods, like golf courses or a cemetery or fenced power lines, or lots of shopping, anything to make it difficult to drive directly from good to bad.
Phoenix must be an awfully weird city if there are $600K houses across a dirt road from a trailer park.
oxide
Geez, when you do a bullet list of facts it’s downright depressing.
RAL
I hear ya loud and clear. The depressing part about all that banked money is the interest rate.I used a compounded interest calculator and it really depressed me at 7% for the duration it’s been there. What we’ve earned in criminal.
“said Jay Luber, owner of Galaxy Lending Group, a large Phoenix mortgage broker. ”
He said “Luber”.
I’m going to be vacationing in AZ in September, and I hope I can find the time to drive around some of these areas of Phoenix I’ve been reading about. I expect to see some pretty amazing stuff. AZ is my favorite state to visit, but like they say, I don’t know if I would want to live there. I don’t think AZ relies on the retiree market as much as Florida, but even a little bit is too much these days. There won’t be many retirees who will be risking their savings on a house no matter where it is (that’s IF they can manage to sell the house they’re in), and it doesn’t cost anything to park an RV in the desert.