July 26, 2011

From Super-Irrational To Irrational In Florida

The News Journal reports from Florida. “Several Volusia County beachside cities that saw their fortunes rise with the condominium construction boom are now finding themselves financially hamstrung by the same residential market because of crashing condo values. Condo values are more volatile than single-family homes because they are bought more often by investors, speculators and persons seeking vacation and second homes, said Jon Zolsky, a condo specialist with Fun Coast Realty in Daytona Beach.”

“‘When the market was crazy in 2005 and 2006, I would say 75 to 80 percent of the preconstruction buyers were investors,’ he said. ‘When we crossed that 50 percent mark we were in trouble because as soon as the market softened they walked away and left a lot of empty units and the market spiraled down as fast as it went up. We now have a glut with low prices.’”

“‘Too many people tried to capitalize on the boom times and prices went way up and way down,’ said Bill Roe, owner/broker of Ocean Properties in New Smyrna Beach. “We have steep discounts and as soon as the banks loosen lending again, sales will pick up. Any moment I expect to see the spiral start up with prices increasing as the demand from baby boomers and those retiring wanting a no-maintenance lifestyle and with no new condos being built to limit new supply.’”

From WINK News. “A new report from Florida Realtors shows hope on the horizon. Even though the number of sales dipped since last year, prices are on the rise for existing homes and condos in Lee County. ‘There are fewer toxic properties coming on the market, fewer foreclosures, and the ones that are coming on the market are typically higher-end,’ says Denny Grimes, with Royal Shell Real Estate in Fort Myers. ‘We’ve gone from a super-irrational market to, basically, an irrational market. Sellers aren’t necessarily clicking their heels when they’re walking out of closing, but they are being successful.’”

The News Press. “Fort Myers-Cape Coral is one of the most inexpensive places in the country to buy a house, but rents are far above average. Driving the high rents in Lee County is a continued influx of foreclosure refugees being kicked out of their homes, said Susan Lutter, broker for Fort Myers-based Gulf Waters Rentals and Management. ‘We still have renters saying, ‘Hey, I have to be out by Wednesday,’ she said.”

The Herald Tribune. “According to an analysis provided by Michael Saunders & Co. agent Robert S. Goldman, a 4.3-month supply of homes was for sale in North Port at the end of June — a ridiculously low number, considering that a six-month supply represents a healthy market and anything below that means sellers can begin pushing prices up. And there have been some early indicators that prices are rebounding.”

“But, in North Port, nothing is ever exactly what it seems. The drop in inventory had everything to do with the rob-signing crisis that broke out nearly a year ago. ‘The reality is that there is still a tremendous amount of inventory that is not yet for sale,’ said Dennis Black, a Port Charlotte real estate consultant. ‘You have people who are behind on their mortgages and the banks haven’t bothered to foreclose.’”

“Is it possible to steal a house? It’s a question residents in one Fort Myers neighborhood are asking after squatters moved into a foreclosed home on their street. After someone moved into a home that was vacant for two years, neighbors in one Fort Myers community took notice. ‘I was out of town and one of my neighbors told me someone moved in and sent me a picture with the power on,’ David McCarthy, a neighbor, told WINK.”

“Another neighbor said she went to welcome the new resident. ‘I said well we knew the previous owner and he said well they rented it to me. They saved it from foreclosure. They are renting it to me as long as I keep the house up,’ she recalled. But that was news to the previous owner, Daryl Moran. ‘One of my neighbors called me and said that someone had rented the old house and you had leased it to him. I said well I don’t even own it as far as I thought,’ Moran remembered.”

“He reluctantly left the home after declaring bankruptcy more than two years ago. ‘We should have stayed there but at the time I thought we were doing the right thing,’ he said.”

“Recent legal challenges caused many banks to halt their foreclosure processes leaving the houses in limbo. For instance, the bank has filed for foreclosure on Daryl’s home but it’s not finalized so it’s still in Daryl’s name. The owner on record has to file for eviction and the squatter is banking that the owner who walked away from the house won’t care enough to file. We tried to ask the people in Daryl’s former home if they were squatting. Even though there was a car in the driveway, no one would answer the door. As long as they’re still in this home, the neighbors say they’ll be on edge.”

The Philadelphia Inquirer. “John Aguiar is a veteran of the Gulf War. Aguiar and his wife, Syrena, built a house in Cape Coral, Fla., after relocating from Chicago to be nearer her parents. Using proceeds from the sale of their Chicago house, they bought a lot in a new subdivision in the Cape, a middle-class suburb across from Fort Myers in southwest Florida.”

“But the mortgage, like so many at the time, contained a ticking time bomb. Their bank had given them an adjustable-rate mortgage, and soon they were struggling when their monthly payments ballooned. Then Aguiar lost his job in a housing-materials firm when his division was shut down. He cashed out a pension plan from a former employer, drained his 401(k) account, and worked part time at a Home Depot. ‘We did everything we could to try to hold on to the house,’ he said.”

“You can hear their stories almost every day at the Veterans Foundation of Cape Coral. ‘We have guys coming in here as often as you can imagine who are losing their homes and not knowing what to do,’ said Ralph A. Santillo, president of the group, himself embroiled in a foreclosure case on his own house. ‘They’re living on a fixed income, usually just Social Security, sometimes a little pension. All their costs are going up - insurance, taxes. Most times when people refinanced, they used that money just to keep up with their bills and pay their mortgage. So there was no real benefit. It was not like people were going to get rich and live off the money.’”

“‘There was stuff out there like no-interest loans or loans where you paid 1 percent interest,’ he said. ‘Then all of a sudden you find out two years down the road you are paying $5,000 a month. Some of these were usurious. They would have put you in jail for that years ago.’”

“When their bank refused their appeal to adjust their mortgage payment, foreclosure began and the family soon lost the house. John, Syrena, and their two school-age children moved in with Syrena’s parents. When John still couldn’t find work in Florida, he took a job with a trucking company in Chicago and moved in with relatives, separated from his wife and children by 1,300 miles. ‘We had the American dream,’ said Syrena, ‘and it was taken from us.’”




RSS feed

35 Comments »

Comment by Muggy
2011-07-26 05:31:32

Yup, Florida is hell.

I am in upstate NY for two weeks and I am going to need a lobotomy to return to Florida.

Comment by Bad Andy
2011-07-26 08:54:24

Just stay until October or November when the snow starts. You’ll be ready to get back in a hurry.

Comment by snake charmer
2011-07-26 10:35:24

Like many a transplant here, I was born in upstate New York. I have no desire whatsoever to return. This state is truly weird, but at least it’s interesting.

I went on Google street-view to try to find my early childhood house, which was in the Rochester boondocks at the time, but it’s gone, replaced by a McMansion subdivision.

Comment by Muggy
2011-07-26 14:14:13

Do either of you guys have kids? I was managing o.k. until I had kids.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by snake charmer
2011-07-26 15:08:28

Not yet. That’s a good point, though — I’ve never seen any of the large cities in this state listed among the best places to raise a family. Those places, for some reason, always seem to be in colder states.

Here’s an example, from Forbes magazine. Note that Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany all made this particular top ten list.

http://tinyurl.com/26hsx69

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2011-07-26 16:12:28

“Rochester boondocks”

Ha! That’s similar to what I say when I want to obscure that I’m from Pittsford.

I grew up on the edge of civilization.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by snake charmer
2011-07-26 20:23:54

I lived near Fairport. I just consulted Wikipedia and learned that, in 2005, Fairport was named one of America’s best places to live by Money Magazine. Why do these financial magazines love upstate New York so much? The area has hemorrhaged population since 1950.

 
Comment by Dave
2011-07-28 10:45:41

> I just consulted Wikipedia

I just consulted Wikipedia and learned that the number of African elephants has tripled in the past year.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2011-07-26 05:39:12

“We have steep discounts and as soon as the banks loosen lending again, sales will pick up. Any moment I expect to see the spiral start up with prices increasing as the demand from baby boomers and those retiring wanting a no-maintenance lifestyle and with no new condos being built to limit new supply.’”

Ant minute now! Hope springs eternal.

Comment by cereal
2011-07-26 07:51:50

We’ve gone from

A) Everything is tanking

to

C) Any minute things will get better.

what happened to B)?

Comment by Carl Morris
2011-07-26 08:19:08

We were “rescued” from B).

 
 
Comment by Will
2011-07-26 12:49:34

Yea, those retired baby boomers just can’t wait to get fleeced again on a Florida condo.

Low maintenace costs? Wait until they see the $100,00 per unit
bill facing the owners in Sarasota’s Dolphin Tower.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20110714/ARTICLE/110719768

That plus $500/month for a home you can’t live in. Lots of luck to those speculating in condos these days.

Will, still waiting

 
 
Comment by salinasron
2011-07-26 05:59:58

‘We had the American dream,’ said Syrena, ‘and it was taken from us.’

When I grew up the American Dream book handed me included the section on Responsibility and Prudence; sorry Syrena that you got the Political Correct rewrite edition.

 
Comment by palmetto
2011-07-26 06:03:49

Bwahahahahaha! This is one of the headlines the AOHell Jobs section today:

“Need a Job? Move to Florida
Thanks in part to a construction boom, this state has made huge gains in job creation — and the future looks even brighter.

9 other states for job-hunters”

We’re #3!!! Boo-YAH!

“3. Florida
2011 Job Growth, January - June: 85,500
January Unemployment: 11.9 percent (third highest)
June Unemployment: 10.4 percent (seventh highest)
Net Job Change (January 2008 - December 2010): -739,000 (second worst loss)

Florida was one of — if not the hardest-hit state during the subprime mortgage crisis, losing nearly 750,000 jobs between 2008 and 2011. States with a large construction industry were hurt the most, and Florida was has one of the largest in the country. At the beginning of this year, Florida had the third-highest unemployment rate in the country. Now, thanks to a major recovery in construction, it has dropped to seventh highest, and added 85,000 employees to payrolls in the state. According to the Florida Independent, last month was also the first in five years in which Florida had a net gain in manufacturing jobs.”

Apparently, wwe’ve had a major recovery in construction! Who knew?

Comment by Ben Jones
2011-07-26 06:13:44

Double digit UE is still high. But I add the anecdotal that I heard construction work is up in Phoenix. Why not, with thousands of foreclosures a month, that’s a lot of rehab to be done. I for one am glad that people can find work.

This gets back to the debate of stalling foreclosures or letting the process run its course. From the Inquirer piece above:

‘An epicenter of the crisis in the United States, Lee County became so swamped by foreclosures that it created a special court to handle them…Todd Allen, a Naples, Fla., lawyer who has represented 235 property owners in foreclosure, said that Lee County officials were apparently rushing to judgment because they believe that the sooner they dispose of houses in foreclosure, the sooner the local economy will rebound.’

“The idea that you kick people out of their houses, then the economy will return, I think it’s a false premise,” Allen said. He said that mortgage fraud and ownership questions surrounding many quick foreclosures will mean authorities will have to deal with the problem for years. “It would all work better if the banks just helped consumers and threw them a lifeline,” he said. “Now they have to pay thousands to go through foreclosure.”

Yes Mr Allen, ‘The idea that you kick people out of their houses, then the economy will return’ is false and you’re the one that said it. There are lots of things at work here. Most people aren’t “kicked” out of anything, they walk away. Look at the number of strategic defaults.

Are people better off throwing good money after bad? Are empty houses desirable? IMO, what these folks are wanting is a magic bullet that will make the bad decisions go away.

Comment by palmetto
2011-07-26 07:45:02

“I for one am glad that people can find work.”

So am I, in principle, however, in Florida, if construction jobs are up, that means work for illegals, not necessarily citizens of Florida.

“Most people aren’t “kicked” out of anything, they walk away. Look at the number of strategic defaults.”

I have some issues with this “strategic default” stuff. I have a buddy who sold a home on the other side of the state (Broward County) at the height of the bubble, cashed out and then came over here to the Tampa Bay area, doubled “up” and purchased a home again at the height of the bubble, using his cash as a down payment, which he then pulled out in home equity or refinancing, etc. For a year or so he paid on that/those mortgage, he could afford it.

When it happened that the value of the house declined to half of what he owes on it, he went into strategic default, dragging his wife into the situation, of course. He was advised by the lawyer to let his credit cards go as well. Not a problem, he has lots of cash (right now). I’d have lots of cash, too, if I didn’t have to pay rent. He’s been in his house for over a year now, hasn’t been evicted yet. He’s hoping for a do-over at current market value.

He has it all justified, of course. “The banks this and the banks that, screw them, etc.” I thought about this for a while and my take is, OK, if you find your mortgage a burden and you feel you’ll never recover your “investment”, fine. Then walk away and rent somewhere else cheaper.

“what these folks are wanting is a magic bullet that will make the bad decisions go away.” If he was honest with himself, he’d realize that that’s what he’s looking for and he’s playing chicken with the bank.

Comment by Kim
2011-07-26 10:00:03

“I have some issues with this “strategic default” stuff.”

There is strategic default necessary to preserve one’s family’s life raft, and then there is deadbeat strategic default. A friend of a co-worker just stiffed a bank about $60K on a recent Chicago starter-condo short sale. This FB is young, single, working in medical equipment sales, got a promotion and will be making in the neighborhood of $300K/year. He is happy as can be that he avoided taxes on his default.

I’m hearing this secondhand, so I have no idea if the bank will go after the deficiency (FB doesn’t seem to think so). The condo sold for well under $100K, so I am guessing the bank probably figured the cost of foreclosing would outweigh most of the value left.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Space Case
2011-07-26 16:20:25

Sounds like he’s gaming the system to me. No payments, stash the monthly nut and who cares what happens? He can lose the house or buy another outright with all the money he is stashing away.

I wish I could be so cold and calculating.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2011-07-26 08:16:48

“what these folks are wanting is a magic bullet that will make the bad decisions go away.”

My other post about strategic default hasn’t shown up yet, but I want to pursue this a little more, because therein lies the problem.

Why shouldn’t people want or even expect a magic bullet? TARP was a pretty big magic bullet. Chrysler got a magic bullet. All sorts of social parasites get magic bullets all the time. Illegal immigrants are demanding their magic bullet and some are getting it. So I don’t blame people for expecting one themselves. If everybody, from bottom to top, had to accept the consequences of their bad decisions, then fine. But we’ve come to a point where the law is capriciously applied, at best. There are no consequences, apparently, for Wall Street and Washington.

You have people who still try to do the right thing, and they start to feel like schmucks. Even in my conversations with my buddy who is squatting during his strategic default, call me paranoid, but it kind of creeps into his tone that I’m sort of a schmuck for paying rent, while he doesn’t pay a penny.

OTOH, I do know that his strategic default has had unforseen consequences for his business, he keeps complaining about it, but refuses to connect the two.

But now, I wonder how banksters and politicians would like it if folks on whom they depend and demand competency of, like doctors and auto mechanics, did work for them on the order of what the bankers and politicians do for others. How about cutting corners during surgery, or maybe just putting the person under anesthesia and not doing the surgery at all, and then claiming a success? How about bogus medical test results? Would they like the auto mechanic to fudge the brake job? I don’t think so.

Comment by Trapper
2011-07-26 08:37:32

Great post Palmetto!!
You are spot on.
thanks

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by palmetto
2011-07-26 10:46:46

You’re welcome. This whole attitude has trickled down to infect those just trying to make it on Main Street. Witness the Atlanta teachers test score scandal. Falsification, in the name of No Child’s Behind Left Alone or Race to the Bottom fund bonuses. All they did was end up boning us, but they had good examples from Wall Street and Washington, whence their funding came.

I saw this in my recently ended (by my choice) business development gig. People are stupid, stupid, stupid. They’d rather beat you out of small amounts short term and lose a good producer, than reap the ongoing long term benefits. It’s pretty gross.

 
 
Comment by Ken Best
2011-07-26 14:34:17

“Illegal immigrants are demanding their magic bullet and some are getting it.”

In California, Gov. Brown just signed the first part of the “Dream Act”, allowing illegal aliens to receive private financial aids.
The second part is coming, in which illegal aliens will receive
aids from public fund.

What message are the Democrats sending to the rest of the world who want to sneak in here illegally? That the illegals will be given money while the legals are subjected to higher tuition fee?

There is only one thing to do with illegal aliens: deportation.
They have no respect for the law of the land.

There is a million new legal immigrants and a million illegal a year (numbersusa.com), while Americans still can’t find job.
Let’s shut down the border!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-07-26 17:14:08

The trouble is that the banksters know they are above the rule of law, at least to the extent that any penalties levied against them will be far outweighed by how much dough they make through questionable banking practice.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2011-07-26 09:30:53

But I add the anecdotal that I heard construction work is up in Phoenix. Why not, with thousands of foreclosures a month, that’s a lot of rehab to be done. I for one am glad that people can find work.

I, too, am glad that people can find work.

However, rehabbing a busted up house doesn’t draw on the same skillset as new construction.

In the rehab gig, you have to be very knowledgeable about how things used to be built 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Or even longer.

And you have to be good at creative problem-solving. It’s not the same as joining part A to part B. You might end up having to create a part A and a part B.

Comment by palmetto
2011-07-26 10:39:02

“In the rehab gig, you have to be very knowledgeable about how things used to be built 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Or even longer.”

No you don’t. How is it really any different? With new construction, theoretically you should be knowledgeble about building things well, but as we saw, no one gave a feck. So why should anyone give a feck about rehab either? In both cases, you’re talking about doing things right, in theory. Don’t tell me that people are all of a sudden gonna acquire the skills for rehab. And don’t tell me that even if they did, they’d get paid for it. Not happenin’. Not that I can see. You’ll have the same gaggles of illegal mestizos doing the same substandard job at the same substandard pay.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2011-07-26 10:43:40

The only significant structural building I see is that associated with healthcare and higher education. Periodically a small house in a nicer neighborhood will be replaced by an unimaginative rectangle, but I could not disagree more with the statement that we are in a construction boom or that the future looks “even brighter” for construction. That’s just false.

There is some large-scale road maintenance; perhaps that is what was meant.

Comment by palmetto
2011-07-26 11:06:31

“I could not disagree more with the statement that we are in a construction boom or that the future looks “even brighter” for construction. That’s just false.”

I don’t think we’re in a construction boom (usual lying sack of crap media BS) but I can tell you that if you come to South Hillsborough, you’ll see some significant building going on. The most significant building is taking place in the two (vastly expanded) USDA subsidized homoanership communities. And how. Not to mention that construction appears to have re-started in two stalled bubble communities. And some along Rte 301.

We got hit with the ugly stick big time down here. And the hits just keep on coming. If the folks moving into the area are any indication of the future, I’m not going to stay. I was out and about yesterday. You know how hot it is. In the past, the summer traffic around here was extremely light. Well, the streets have turned congested and so have the people.

I saw some middle eastern lady decked out head to toe in heavy black robes at the local junk shop. Usually I find this disturbing, but then I looked around at all the big, fat, tattooed women with their knockers hanging out of tank tops and cellulite exuding from beneath short shorts, rolls of fat like fighting puppies underneath sleazy, clinging tops. And I was tempted to ask the middle eastern lady if she wouldn’t mind having a word with some of those other women and give them some fashion tips.

Comment by wolfgirl
2011-07-26 11:47:09

While I do think that everyone should be re

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by wolfgirl
2011-07-26 11:48:54

oops hit wrong key

Anyway I much prefer the robes to being exposed to someone’s fat.

 
 
Comment by Robin
2011-07-26 17:13:35

+1 Palmy!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by JoJo
2011-07-26 07:09:08

“He cashed out a pension plan from a former employer, drained his 401(k) account, and worked part time at a Home Depot. ‘We did everything we could to try to hold on to the house,’ he said.”

He should have watched Suze Orman. She’s very adamant about NOT using your retirement savings to pay a mortgage. In fact, she’s now advising strategic defaults if your house is seriously underwater.

Comment by snake charmer
2011-07-26 10:47:55

In Tom Hanks’ new movie, his character strategically defaults after applying what he’s learned in a community college economics class. He then hooks up with Julia Roberts.

 
 
Comment by Minerva
2011-07-26 09:52:29

This is definitely sad. I know a lot of people who get really poor and lost their own homes because of mortgages. I guess proper using of your own retirement saving should be implemented to avoid bad cases like this.

 
Comment by Eggman
2011-07-26 13:18:50

Most times when people refinanced, they used that money just to keep up with their bills and pay their mortgage. So there was no real benefit. It was not like people were going to get rich and live off the money.

– what? You’re using the Refi to pay bills, and you’re actually using the Refi to pay - the new payments — and you’re not “living off the money.”

Mom used to tell me, “people are morons.” (sigh)

 
Comment by craig
2011-07-31 10:05:13

looks like housing markets are pretty similar everywhere (almost)..its becoming rather slow in kenya too, the property sector.

 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post