August 7, 2011

Bits Bucket for August 7, 2011

Post off-topic ideas, links, and Craigslist finds here.




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304 Comments »

Comment by Muggy
2011-08-07 04:49:20

City of Rochester demolishes 8.6 acres in a corporate welfare project, and now the corp. may not construct their building there after all.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110807/NEWS01/108070336/Midtown-PAETEC-project-not-dead-yet?

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 12:44:58

Damn overpaid teachers and firefighters!

Oh wait.

 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2011-08-07 14:29:38

Latest News Updates : Suspended trading in the stock market in Tel Aviv.

The transactions on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange suspended today after a significant decline as a result of deteriorating creditworthiness. U.S. Ratings agency Standard & Poor

According to Israel Radio, the TA-100 index of major companies a hundred in the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange fell 6%, just before trade stopped.

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 17:53:15

I thought the Not A Depression Recession was over?

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:14:50

Posted on Sat, Aug. 06, 2011 10:15 PM

Deal to raise debt ceiling affects government loans for graduate students
By MARÁ ROSE WILLIAMS
The Kansas City Star

The nation’s graduate students were not exactly thrown under the bus in the recent Washington collision over the debt ceiling, but they did get nicked a bit.

They’ve taken the hit, it might be said, for the almost 10 million college undergraduates who need Pell Grants.

Deep cuts to the Pell program — which offers low-income undergraduate students grants that do not need to be repaid — were considered but then taken off the table.

“We are very relieved,” said Larry Moeder, director of admissions and student financial assistance at Kansas State University, where about half of the students get some type of federal assistance for tuition.

“The Pell Grant was designed to help the very neediest to afford a higher education. The neediest were protected in this process.”

Instead, the negotiators decided to save money by requiring graduate or professional-school students to pay the 6.8 percent interest on their government Stafford Loans that is accrued while they are in school.

Currently the government picks up that interest during school years. Under the change that begins July 1 next year, however, that interest will be paid by the student after graduation.

Last week’s compromise also eliminated the financial incentives to students to repay loans on time.

Comment by Muggy
2011-08-07 05:33:46

“Instead, the negotiators decided to save money by requiring graduate or professional-school students to pay the 6.8 percent interest on their government Stafford Loans that is accrued while they are in school.”

I’m starting to think that you shouldn’t even go to undergrad unless you plan on going on to pro/grad.

2011-08-07 06:37:19

I’m probably the very last person to criticize the worth of education but its cost has gotten absurdly out of control. The benefits are simply not there.

It’s the last bubble to burst and it’s going to rock the academic world in an unprecendented way.

College is a farce. Grad school is an even larger farce.

Comment by rms
2011-08-07 07:19:51

“It’s the last bubble to burst and it’s going to rock the academic world in an unprecendented way.”

I hope the tuition bubble pops before my kids are ready to attend. There are simply too many third world laborers to compete with, so going to school is a wise move, IMHO.

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Comment by easthawaii
2011-08-07 11:46:49

Anecdotal report from a third world country, Nepal — a friend of mine, middle-aged musician, is the son of a small farmer and was the first in his family to go to college. All five of his children will get degrees. One just completed an BA/RN in Australia, another a business degree in Nepal, son is half way through an engineering program. Education is the key in Asia, we’d better keep up.

That said, 6.8% interest on Pell grants is an outrageous burden on students.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2011-08-07 12:51:33

Here is a question how do these backward countries manage to keep these kids from getting pregnant at like 15 and having to work on the farm instead of going to college?

Will any of those ideas work on Americans in the inner city?

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 14:17:30

That said, 6.8% interest on Pell grants is an outrageous burden on students.

I think you meant student loans. Grants don’t have to be paid back.

 
Comment by jim
2011-08-08 07:07:34

Because they listen to doctors about sex and not to religios whackaloons?

 
 
Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 07:23:14

Again, depends on the major. Grad school in sci-eng are NOT farces, especially in sci. However, even those students need to beware. If they get too many degrees, then private sector will see than as “too expensive” on an hourly basis and refuse to hire them unless they are consummate salemen. If they stop at a bachelor’s degree, they’ll have a more stable, if lower paid, life as a tech.

Grad school in lib arts is definitely a farce. Financially, the kids are better off sitting at home, eating cheetos in the basement and working at McD’s to pay the minimum on the loans, than they are assuming more debt.

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2011-08-07 07:39:21

You may not be aware of recent trends but courses that were routinely second-year undergraduate courses now show up as first-year grad courses.

It’s a farce at so many levels that it’s not even funny any more. The level of dumbing down is beyond belief.

When it happens at MIT and Caltech, you are just left slack-jawed and shellshocked.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2011-08-07 10:00:28

Wow faster Ive been saying that for years….

Or America is SOS…Stuck On Stupid

it would be nice to meet ya…the GF is not at the Met Museum anymore. too many layoffs, and too much stress from the last cutbacks and they really started to get anal about so many things….being 5 minutes late and you know its a long walk from the 6 subway or being short $1 in the register….sad
—————-
The level of dumbing down is beyond belief.

 
 
Comment by SUGuy
2011-08-07 08:44:06

Education is good in itself. Having said that one needs to get an education in a marketable field, American educational degrees are accepted all over the world. Perhaps in the future American born and educated students will need to accept globalization and move to different lands to find good jobs. Just like the chindians do today.

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Comment by ahansen
2011-08-07 10:01:44

“…American born and educated students will need to accept globalization and move to different lands to find good jobs….”

Two of my fifth-generation CA nieces took their BA’s and went to PRC to work; one in teaching, one in communications. My step-son took his MD to Columbia. My son’s best friend is putting his PhD in bio-ethics to use in a German think tank.

These are all first-tier graduates, and all four are settled and happy. Two have married foreign nationals. Globalization is not just some amorphous future concept, and it’s not necessarily to the detriment of American citizens. It’s here and it’s working– for those who care to adapt.

 
Comment by Muggy
2011-08-07 10:35:21

“Globalization is not just some amorphous future concept, and it’s not necessarily to the detriment of American citizens. It’s here and it’s working– for those who care to adapt.”

You know the joke: what do you call someone who speaks three languages? Tri-lingual. What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bi-lingual. What do you call someone who speaks one language?

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2011-08-07 10:36:21

The purpose of the higher education establishment is to get as much money from you as possible. One way to do this is to provide nearly meaningless 4-year degrees so you’re forced to continue paying them for more knowledge.

Wait a minute, did I just describe Scientology?

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 10:41:54

Just curious, how did they get an immigrant visa for these countries? I know its possible to get temporary work visas for China, but to become a legal immigrant in most countries is tough as nails. You usually have to prove that there is no one locally who can do the job. When I worked at HP I knew people who tried to get permamanentlt reassigned to non US sites. Getting a visa was always a roadblock, even with HP lawyers helping, so most wound up on temporary assignments (6 months to 3 years) as those visas were easier to get.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 12:49:38

“It’s here and it’s working– for those who care to adapt.”

Not everyone can AFFORD to adapt. That’s the point.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2011-08-07 12:53:56

Yes Eco Afford to adapt……..

If companies don’t train you on their old equipment like in the old days…then how are you supposed to buy a Mac Air and thousands in legal software (no bootleg stuff allowed) just to be an intern?

 
Comment by ahansen
2011-08-07 13:39:40

“…how did they get an immigrant visa for these countries?”

Ministry of Education for PRC, which was– and still is — soliciting English-speaking teachers and media consultants. Both gals eventually married younger Chinese men whose fathers were well-placed in the Party hierarchy (and whom, I suspect, helped facilitate the marriages as a means of squirreling money out of the country into US real estate investments.)

MD’s are welcome pretty much everywhere– especially third-world medicine specialists with American training and contacts.

Think-tank guy is a resident alien through US State Department and University of Leipzig reciprocal exchange program. Many US universities and institutes maintain adjunct overseas campuses and faculty. For example, I was surprised to learn the UC Berkeley has numerous ag and forestry research programs in PRC National Parks and Forests. The Panda Project in Chengdu and the botany research program in Jiuzhai (China’s extraordinary uber-Yosemite,) among them.

And a surprising number of people get resident visas through NGO’s, specifically religious and charitable affiliates.

Bottom line is, if you have enough money, useful celebrity, family contacts, and/or needed skills, you can maintain a residence pretty much wherever you dang well please…. (Well, besides North Korea or South Yemen, that is.)

 
Comment by butters
2011-08-07 15:39:59

Saw that first hand in Kathmandu, Nepal 2 years ago. A striking Spaniard in her mid to late 20’s attending local University and working as a whitewater rafting guide during the season and loving every minute of it.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 19:21:56

“, if you have enough money, useful celebrity, family contacts, and/or needed skills, you can maintain a residence pretty much wherever you dang well please”

So if you’re rich, well-connected, and/or extremely intelligent, you can move most anywhere? I think I already knew that. What about the other 95% of the population? They get to live on third-world wages? Will they be happy about that? Or will we privileged few just live in walled estates and drive armored cars?

I think I still prefer the old, non-globalist system. I don’t care to move to China and marry into its kleptocracy. In fact, I’m not so sure that’s a wise a long-term move. Nor do I think moving to very corrupt, very dangerous, fighting-multiple-insurgencies Columbia, with my American MD degree, is very wise, given my other options with the same degree.

Brazil, maybe…

 
Comment by ahansen
2011-08-07 22:20:06

alpha-
His motivations and most may vary (she is very, VERY lovely.)

 
 
Comment by mikeinbend
2011-08-07 12:16:02

In Oregon I have to surrender my teaching license if I don’t get a Masters of Ed. Only state to my knowledge that requires elementary teachers to get masters.

Cheapest one I could find so far is 15k. For an online diploma mill degree. And they pay teachers 30k. And teaching jobs in Bend are hard to come by; which is where I own a home(no mortgage on my home, I just keep it rented and consider it a small nest egg. My wife tried one of those mortgage things out, BofA loaned to her at 60x income; and my wife is getting foreclosed on).

Did not realize how the mortgage was not held by the originator and instantly sold down the river; which is how such ludicrous underwriting could happen. But I am looking statewide for future employment as soon or before my 2 kids get thru their public education.

Looking at possibly getting a Masters in ELL or similar; I do like to teach even though it is not lucrative; everyone sells something it seems (I used to sell organic vegetables).

And I like the product of youthful students. Who are the future; the only investment that I can make that will outlast me.

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Comment by WT Economist
2011-08-07 05:35:40

So who should we screw, the poor undergraduates or the graduate students? Guess which generation wasn’t at risk in these discussions? The generation doing the discussing.

The higher education finance situation is a clear example of how each generation, starting with mine, is worse off than the one before.

In the days of Generation Greed, even moderately well off students could easily get outright grants to go to college, and public colleges and universities were generously funded. With tuition low and low wage jobs plentiful, it was pretty easy for them to work their was through school.

I remember the debate about the grants — was it fair to tax the working class to subsidize the elite, who would go on to earn more? So grants were cut back to the poor, and I got loans. But those loans featured generous interest rates, and deferrals if you were unemployed or in grad school — a much bigger hit to the lender in those days then now.

With higher education funding being cut, tuition is much higher even in public colleges and universities. Jobs are unavailable, public loans only cover part of the bill, the terms are worse, and private loans are usurious. Back in my day the scumbags defaulted on their loans and got out paying easily. Now those unable to pay through no fault of their own face a lifetime of indentured servitude.

Comment by Muggy
2011-08-07 06:23:31

“Now those unable to pay through no fault of their own face a lifetime of indentured servitude.”

The flip side is that Boomers will generally be horrified with the health care they receive.

 
Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 07:35:18

WT, don’t forget that jobs were plentiful once they got out of school too, so paying back the loans wasn’t a huge deal.

A co-worker engineer received a half-dozen offers when he finished undergrad in 1982, just from standard on-campus recruting. Securely employed himself, he stayed blissfully out of politics for 25 years, and has no idea how this country has gone down. As if this were the Leave if the Beaver era where a college degree meant automatic career, he told his new graduate squishy-”science” son that he needs to find a “professional job, with benefits.” Ha. The kid is eating cheetos in the basement. I hope things work out well, but it’s shaking dad out of his blinders.

Comment by MightyMike
2011-08-07 12:17:06

new graduate squishy-”science” son

What does that mean?

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Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 17:16:13

anthopology class of 2011.

 
 
 
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 13:23:19

“Guess which generation wasn’t at risk in these discussions? The generation doing the discussing.”

This generational crap gets really tiresome.

All generations are at risk here. Those going to school for graduate degrees include older folks trying to make themselves more marketable. Parents often provide some funding for their children. Folks I know at work who have teenagers are wondering if they have saved enough to put them through school.

It sucks that tuition has risen faster than inflation. This is the root cause of the problem.

It sucks for the whole country that we have lots of students with onerous loans. We need student loans to be dischargable in bankruptcy. It will level the playing field between lenders and debters, giving lenders and debt collectors some incentive to work with debters.

It really sucks that the most ambitious of our poor folks are stuck with loans for training from dubious private institutions, some of which go out of business before they can complete their training.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015126443_apwaalpinecollege.html

 
 
Comment by rms
2011-08-07 06:31:33

“The Pell Grant was designed to help the very neediest to afford a higher education. The neediest were protected in this process.”

The neediest need to learn to pay for things like everyone else, so a coupon book at graduation seems like a dose of good medicine. I paid my student loans over five years while also raising a family on my one income; they can do it too.

Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 08:37:27

I think I got a Pell grant when I went to school. It was something like $500, barely worth applying for.

Do you need certain grades to get pell grants, or is it based on need alone? Just a couple weeks ago someone posted that community “colleges” were teaching 5th grade math. I don’t want my tax money going to fund that.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 08:44:05

But how are the rich to get richer if no one is getting deeper in debt? Your money is other peoples’ debt.

It is no cooincidene that as the rich got richer, we grew household and business debt at 3x the rate of inflation. Without that debt, there would not have been money for the rich to get. Now, that debt can’t possibly be paid back unless the rich get a bit poorer so the poor actually have enough money to pay the rich back all the money they owe.

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 12:55:55

While far too many folks in this country would call that socialistic/commie talk, the truth is that they forget that capitalism is a 2-way street.

Another analogy would be that it’s a dynamic system that must stay in balance in order to work properly.

Marie Antoinette didn’t get it either.

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Comment by SDGreg
2011-08-07 08:40:37

Another approach could be to find out what skills are in demand in a country where you want to emigrate. Get the necessary education and don’t worry about the debt needed to get that education. Then emigrate and walk from the debt, but don’t plan on coming back to the U.S. ever.

A big caveat is that what might get you in the door now, might change by the time you’re ready to leave.

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:03:22

Good idea but…

Other countries have much tougher immigration standards than we do.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:19:54

Bloomberg
U.S. Stocks Sink in Biggest Drop Since 2008 on Economic Concern
August 05, 2011, 10:36 PM EDT
By Nikolaj Gammeltoft

Aug. 6 (Bloomberg) — U.S. stocks fell the most in 32 months this week, erasing the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index’s 2011 advance, as investors fled equities amid signs that the economy is stalling. An early rally faded yesterday as concern grew that S&P would cut the American credit rating, speculation which proved to be true after financial markets closed.

The S&P 500 slumped 7.2 percent to 1,199.38, the biggest weekly drop since November 2008 and the lowest level since Nov. 30, 2010. The Dow rose 60.93 points yesterday. For the week, it dropped 698.63 points, or 5.8 percent, to 11,444.61. The measures erased year-to-date gains that reached 8.4 percent and 11 percent as of April 29, respectively.

“It was disaster,” Michael Gibbs, Memphis, Tennessee- based chief equity strategist at Morgan Keegan Inc., said yesterday in a telephone interview. His firm oversees about $80 billion in client assets. “The weakness in the U.S. economy combined with the lack of confidence in European leadership made the perfect storm for investors.”

About $1.87 trillion has been erased from the value of U.S. equities since July 22, including the 4.8 percent plunge by the S&P 500 on Aug. 4 that was the biggest drop since February 2009.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 06:32:10

Stocks crashed 5% on Thursday but the downgrade didn’t come until Friday. I wonder how many peple will go to jail for insider trading?

Oh, right. No one.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 07:14:02

Zero Hedge was all over that aspect of the story.

 
Comment by Hard Rain
2011-08-07 08:47:47

Jail? Hah good one…

Aug. 6 (Bloomberg) — Washington Mutual Bank’s failure, the biggest in U.S. history, won’t result in criminal charges against its former executives, U.S. Attorney Jenny A. Durkan in Seattle said.

A federal investigation of the bank’s collapse included hundreds of interviews and a review of millions of documents concerning its operations, Durkan and the Justice Department said yesterday in an e-mailed statement.

“The evidence does not meet the exacting standards for criminal charges in connection with the bank’s failure,” according to the statement.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-08-06/wamu-bank-s-failure-won-t-result-in-criminal-charges-u-s-says.html

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 15:58:54

To paraphrase the late Leona Helmsley, incarceration is for the little people.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 18:05:40

“Nobody could have seen it coming!”

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Comment by combotechie
2011-08-07 07:13:45

“About $1.87 trillion has been erased from the value of U.S. equities since July 22, including the 4.8 percent plunge by the S&P 500 Aug. 4 that was the biggest drop since February 2009.”

That’s a lot of money that got poofed and my guess there is a lot more money destined to go the same way. People who find themselves on the wrong end of these poofs are hosed.

I’m looking for P/Es to go below eight. They’ve done so many times before it almost seems that doing so is mandated.

Whatever the Great Expansion gave this Great Contraction is taking away.

RE values? Poof.

Stock values? Poof.

Promises of lifetimes pensions and ever-increasing-inflation-adjusted monthly social security checks? Well, the poof is not there yet but it looks as if it might be well on its way. Stay tuned.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 10:46:28

Hey, even I know and admit that the SS checks will be discounted

Comment by combotechie
2011-08-07 11:05:09

So how does this discounting fit in with your inflation projections?

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Comment by combotechie
2011-08-07 11:47:59

Here is an ogbservation of mine that I want to offer up to my fellow HBBers:

IMO the measure of inflation and deflation is price dependent but I believe it should be cash flow dependent; This is because there is a clash between macro-economic decisions and micro-economic decisions.

Micro-economic decisions are made by individuals who decide whether or not to buy a product. Macro-economic decisions are made by those who manufacture these products that individuals want to buy. Hence the macro-deciders RESPOND TO the decisions the micro-deciders make.

But the macro-deciders - the producers -do not respond as quickly as the micro-deciders do, instead they wait for some critical mass of micro-decisions to be made and then they respond. But when they do respond they respond in a big way - in a macro-way.

They do this during expansions and they do this during contractions.

They build lots of capacity during expansions - they build a lot of factories - which puts a lot of product on the market all at one as each factory comes on line, and they cut back on capacity by closing factories when the contraction sets in.

So the supply of products is added to the market in large chunks as factories are opened and closed, but the demand for these products do not happen in large chunks - they happen one micro-decision at a time.

So there are times just after a factory is closed that the demand for a product will outstrip the supply for that product and hence the price will rise. But the price rise is not from inflation as measured from cash flow, it is inflation measured by price. And by using price the true effects of the contraction is masked whereas if one used cash flow the true effects would become apparant.

 
Comment by combotechie
2011-08-07 11:55:06

If a store does not have enough customers to cover its costs then it will be forced to close its doors.

Closing its doors will cause a shortage of products offered for sale.

Shortages create rising prices. Rising prices is a measure of inflation.

But it was a shortage of customers that forced a store to close its doors - a deflationary event. But the effect of this deflationary event is a rise in prices.

 
Comment by combotechie
2011-08-07 12:39:26

And back to the issue of SS outlay reductions:

If Social Security is cut then cash flow will be cut, a deflationary event.

This cash flow cut will cause a shrinkage of demand for the services now offered to those now receiving cash from Social Security. When the shrinkage gets high enough businesses on the margin will fold, which will leave fewer businesses around to offer the services needed by SS receipiants.

Fewer businesses mean less competition which means higher prices for those SS customers who still can afford to be customers.

But fewer customers also means less cash flow.

So it will end up that prices will be signaling inflation and cash flow will be signaling deflation.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 14:14:10

If a store does not have enough customers to cover its costs then it will be forced to close its doors.

Closing its doors will cause a shortage of products offered for sale.

Wouldn’t the other stores that survived just buy more from their suppliers, who are the same suppliers for the out of business store?

Now if a factory goes under, I could see your point.

 
Comment by combotechie
2011-08-07 14:39:11

“Wouldn’t the other stores that survived just buy more from their suppliers, who are the same suppliers for the out of business store?”

Will Dalton pick up enough of Border’s customers to keep in business? Will Best Buy stay in business now that Circuit City is gone? Can both surviving stores now cash in on the absence of their competitors?

If a two-gas station-sized town loses one of its gas stations due to a declining customer base then expect the remaining gas station to raise its prices. But also expect the volume of gas sold to everyone in the town to decline. The higher the price charged by the remaining gas station the lower is sales volume will be. If declining vloume is carried far enough then that gas station will also go out of business and then gas prices will go up out of sight.

If there is enough cash flowing around to keep the competitors alive then the competiton will act to keep prices down. When the competition is gone then the survivors are free to raise prices. But raising prices cuts into sales volume so the end result is less cash flow than before.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 18:08:19

Looking on the bright side, P/E’s of 8 or less should offer a great dips buying opportunity. You will know we are there when all your friends suggest you are crazy for even considering an investment in the stock market.

 
 
Comment by Carl Morris
2011-08-07 07:15:45

Just checking in from Poland this fine Sunday afternoon. Haven’t read the HBB for a week and don’t know if I’ll get a chance to catch up on what I’ve missed, but sounds like it’s finally gotten interesting. Glad I’m still out of the market, so no worries here.

Good news and bad news in rural southern Poland. The bad news is that it’s a bit bubbly here, more new construction than would seem to be warranted. The good news is that at least they’re getting something for their money. The quality of construction is amazing compared to the US. The houses are built to what I think of as fairly high end commercial standards. Lots of heavy wood and stone and tile. In fact good quality heavy wood is used so extensively I have to assume it’s almost free here…

Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 07:39:37

Thank you for the report, Carl!

The more I read, the more I think I want a house built in the 40’s…

Comment by Blue Skye
2011-08-07 08:46:45

wiring and plumbing.

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Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 17:19:55

Well it seems I don’t have much of a choice in the matter now. Do I pick the bad wiring or the day-labor framing? The outdated plumbing or the Chinese drywall?

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 19:33:30

Wiring and plumbing are a hell of a lot easier to replace than turning a poorly-built house into a well-built house ( which is basically impossible).

And the crap wiring and plumbing in more recently built houses will need replacing too.

I think houses built from the 20s to the 70s are the best overall option. After careful personal and professional inspection, of course.

 
 
 
Comment by SDGreg
2011-08-07 08:56:05

Is this housing being built by people that left to build housing in other parts of Europe during the bubble or by people that never left?

Comment by Carl Morris
2011-08-07 15:18:58

No idea…

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2011-08-07 09:46:06

Enjoy, Carl. I was there in September. I think some of the building of infrastructure has to do with World Cup 2012 money coming in from the EU. Or so I was told…

Get the kotlet schabowy. Yum!

Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 10:50:31

The next World Cup is in 2014 and will be held in Brazil. Maybe you’re thinking about the Olympics?

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Comment by seekingsun
2011-08-07 11:27:55

UEFA Euro cup 2012 in Poland and Ukraine…

 
 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:05:23

Wall St takes a hit?

Cry me a river.

Comment by butters
2011-08-07 14:55:32

No kidding.

I just got home and I plan to stay home rest of the evening hoping to catch some train wrecks in Asia. You would be surprised how many of these infobabes come on TV and talk about what the leaders in US and Europe are going to do before the market opens in Asia. Seems like that’s the only thing in life…

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:23:29

World leaders in huddle over US, Europe debt crisis
Press Trust Of India
Posted on Aug 07, 2011 at 05:17pm IST

Washington: The policymakers from across the world engaged themselves in emergency huddles on Sunday to discuss the twin-trouble of an unprecedented downgrade in the US’ credit-worthiness and the debt crisis in Eurozone.

The two issues have been the major reasons for the meltdown in global markets last week, when more than $ 2.5 trillion was wiped off from investors’ wealth, and the policy-makers were seen debating over ways to avoid further turmoil.

The Indian market has also been severely affected with a loss of about Rs 4 lakh crore (about $ 90 billion) in last four trading sessions. This included a loss of Rs 1.3 lakh crore on Friday itself when the markets slumped to their lowest levels in more than a year.

The weekend development of S&P’s downgrading sovereign long-term credit rating of the US from the top-notch ‘AAA’ level is widely expected to further aggravate the troubles when the global markets resume trading on Monday.

Sensing troubles ahead for the markets, global leaders and policymakers were seen holding emergency discussions on a Sunday.

Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 06:11:13

“The Indian market has also been severely affected with a loss of about Rs 4 lakh crore (about $ 90 billion) in last four trading sessions. This included a loss of Rs 1.3 lakh crore on Friday itself when the markets slumped to their lowest levels in more than a year.”

Well, they can thank their own, given how heavily Indians are involved in US finance. Eff ‘em.

2011-08-07 06:49:23

Having a racist moment?

Tons of people invest in India. Try to be logical for a change. It works.

Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 07:44:24

Perhaps a nationalist moment? My main interest in India is the jobs they stole from the US. And yes, I believe that those jobs were stolen.

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2011-08-07 07:51:34

There are no jobs that anybody steals from anybody else.

You have a sense of entitlement. It’s been taken away from you, and you feel a level of resentment.

Put differently, you (or your ancestors) failed to analyze stuff correctly, and you got slaughtered. I could point out entirely analogous episodes from anywhere between 800 BC to the present.

Read up on the Spanish empire some time. It might give you that dejà vu feeling that you are looking after.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 08:20:17

Not stolen. We allowed them to be off-shored in the name of free-trade and higher profit than the rich… so the rich could havemore money to loan to the poor so that the poor could keep buying the products of the rich despite not having that job, so the rich could keep getting richer. Too bad all that “rich” person’s money is loaned to the poor that no longer have a job to be able to pay the rich back.

 
2011-08-07 08:33:58

There is always some “policy”. Even not having a policy is a “policy”. Put simply, there is no such thing as no government intervention. There always is.

Just accept the fact that you judged badly (or your parents did) and you’ll sleep much more easier.

The only interest should be in the future not the past.

 
Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 08:55:09

In the early-90’s, the Internet exploded along with millions of juicy communications jobs, centered in the US. Within 3 years, thousands of Indian grad students showed up in the US, all of them majoring in the same thing: EE and programming. Within 10 years, thousands of Indians appeared in India, all magically educated to do those exact programming and call center jobs, tailored toward American tastes. So did American companies actively seek out Indians and educate them, or did the Indians educate their workforce and then actively court American companies?

————–
*Unlike unskilled labor, these offshored jobs require some education.

 
2011-08-07 09:00:45

Your point would basically be that Americans didn’t respond to the demand and supply fast enough.

Sucks to be stupid, no?

 
Comment by SUGuy
2011-08-07 09:09:27

Education to Indians is equivalent to basketball for the blacks in the US. The sad part is most blacks do not make in the basketball but most Indians make it in education. Indians are not afraid of globalization. They got educated and came to the US on their merit and got jobs.
Let’s not be sour grapes.

 
2011-08-07 09:23:45

Education is to Indians what it was always was to the Jews. A “traditional” mechanism for self-enhancement.

That they are resented for it is beyond funny. It shows you how low the Americans have actually gone in their absurd self-compacency. They are mocking the very traits that made Americans rich beyond rich and immigrants (including Indians) flock to US shores.

LOL.

 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 09:47:42

Windows Vista, anyone? Fine example of Indian “education”.

 
Comment by GH
2011-08-07 09:51:16

I worked for several years at a major US title company which at some point decided off-shoring was the way to go.
When it finally came to be my turn to be laid off the VP told me they got 10 Indian developers for what they were paying me.

I asked him why they did not first offer me $4.00 an hour so I might have a chance to “be competitive” in the new global market. His response : It is ILLEGAL to pay under minimum wage and we still have to pay workers comp, health insurance and a host of other taxes and fees so even at $4 an hour I would still be a LOT more expensive than Indian workers.

This is a race to the bottom, and in some small part my lost job contributed along with millions of other Americans to the recent credit downgrade.

What they sowed…

 
Comment by combotechie
2011-08-07 09:54:31

“A ‘traditional’ mechanism for self-enhancement.”

A portable one as well. No matter where it is that they have to go they get take their education with them.

This isn’t always so for other mechanisms of self-enhancement.

True for Indians, true for Jews, true for everyone.

 
Comment by Rancher
2011-08-07 11:10:50

It not just IT, it’s a lot of other occupations.

Several years ago, architectural firms started having
the bones of their projects done in eastern Europe.

Structural, mechanical systems, the bones, done
by firms in Hungary, Poland, Austria.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2011-08-07 11:13:09

“Windows Vista, anyone? Fine example of Indian “education”.”

Why would you say that, palmy? Do you have any idea what the data show on racial mix at Microsoft?

 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:08:50

There are no jobs that anybody steals from anybody else.

Oh?

If it’s just a matter of economics, then why do corporations need tax breaks to send our job overseas?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68R40I20100928

 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 13:35:18

“Why would you say that, palmy? Do you have any idea what the data show on racial mix at Microsoft?”

couldn’t get the link to work, so I’m cutting and pasting the whole thing, from 2009. Windows Vista info is included. And I’ll say it again: “Indians” (India) are not a race. They are OF the Caucasian race, and some posit they may have been the original Caucasians.

“A Silicon Valley Executive Calls Indian H-1B Workers Incompetent Cheats and Frauds”

From: Tim Stephanini (e-mail him)

Re: Rob Sanchez’s Blog: Rep. Giffords’ Bill To Triple H-1B Visa Cap

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords’ bill to triple the H-1B allowance to 180,000 is a kick in the groin to unemployed American technology workers.

In the past decade, the U.S. has imported millions of H-1B tech workers to chase many fewer jobs. The consequence is massive unemployment for American engineers.

Non-immigrant visa applicants are allowed to come to the U.S. without a job, then transfer and work for different companies on a contract basis. Eventually, they apply for a green card; then they never leave thereby competing unfairly with Americans for the rest of their professional lives.

Indian non-immigrant visa holders are consistently associated with high fraud rates that often result in corporate failure. This pattern dates back for years.

In truth, these are not the best and brightest workers. In many cases involving Indian H-1B holders, they have fake degrees and some have only taken a two-week computer class.

Government officials in the Indian town of Bihar recently found 100,000 fake Indian degree certificates. Worse, even legitimate diplomas are useless since the typical Indian degree is from a three-year institution, not four years as required by H-1B standards.

The list of failed companies and projects associated with these frauds is huge.

Quark Inc. was almost destroyed by con man Alluka Kamar until the Board of Directors canned him.

The Indian outsourcing firm Satyam Computer Services inflated its earnings and assets for years before being caught. The result was a collapse on the Indian stock market similar to Enron’s. [Satyam Chief Admits Huge Fraud, by Heather Timmons, New York Times, January 9, 2009]

In April 2006, Computer Associates CEO Sanjay Kumar was sent to prison for 12 years after he pled guilty to charges including conspiracy, securities fraud and obstruction of justice back. He has been sentenced to 12 years and fined $8 million.

Windows Vista, produced by Microsoft’s 30,000 Indian workers and an utter flop for the company.

Citigroup CEO Vikram Pandit led the company while it lost nearly $19 billion in 2008 and fired 73,000 employees.

Yet despite it all, Obama made Vivek Kundra, a past shoplifter who claimed a biology degree that he did not earn, Federal Chief Investment Officer. Obama also appointed Aneesh Chopra, one of his donors, Chief Information Officer.

Lord help us if Giffords gets her way.

Stefanini is the principal and founder of Velocitos Corporation. He has over 20 years experience working in the software industry and has been the CTO, Vice President, or Director of five companies in Silicon Valley.

 
Comment by butters
2011-08-07 14:43:18

Windows Vista, anyone? Fine example of Indian “education”.

No, more like a fine example of an American management. The indians coded what the mostly Amercian mgmt wanted. It’s a shell game. I used to work for a large company that had offshored a significant portion of our department. The Management pretty much used and abused the offshore and at the end of the day blamed the offshore for all the $hit that went in the corporate office. After $120 mil or so down the drain, they fired 90% of the offshore employees. Half of the executives also lost the jobs in the US. That was a sweet deal as far as I was concerned.

 
Comment by butters
2011-08-07 14:49:12

That they are resented for it is beyond funny. It shows you how low the Americans have actually gone in their absurd self-compacency.

And I blame MTV, Jocks and Coaches and stupid parents for this. Somehow throwing a touchdown is more important for most of these fookers than doing some algebra. You rip what you sow.

 
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 15:59:14

Succeeding as a jock has pretty low odds, but it may be better odds for escaping from grinding poverty than getting large loans for an education.

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-08-07 17:10:01

“Several years ago, architectural firms started having
the bones of their projects done in eastern Europe.

Structural, mechanical systems, the bones, done
by firms in Hungary, Poland, Austria.”

uh huh…. And how’d that work out for owners and clients? I’ll tell you how…..It went over like a turd in the punchbowl. Get real my friend. When I need clarification on structural steel, I’m not gonna call Aleksy Graikowski in Warsaw at 2am EST to get an answer that I can’t understand anyways.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 19:36:48

“Sucks to be stupid, no?”

I wouldn’t know. Sometimes it appears to make people happier.

I do know it sucks to live in a country full of stupid people.

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 09:40:19

“Having a racist moment?”

Having a knee-jerk reaction moment? “Indian” (dot not feather) is not a race. They are, however, “Caucasians”.

They do have one helluva caste system, though, that seems to operate even here in the US, where the darker guy (Rajaratnam, Tamil, Sri Lanka) gets creamed and the lighter guys (Pandit, Rajat Gupta) get off.

Try to lighten up for a change. It works. (Oops, I said “lighten up”, maybe that was a racist statement)

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Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 10:05:44

As oxide knows, I am indeed a nationalist. But I think the nation I favor is dying. I was very fortunate to be a part of it for many years, though, and I can’t thank the nation enough for the wonderful times I had.

Sorry, old friend. Wish I could have done more for you.

 
Comment by ahansen
2011-08-07 10:37:56

PSFF is spot on his observations today. The whiney self-pity and sense of thwarted entitlement in this country would be risible if it weren’t so pathetic.

As he correctly states, so many of us are left seething at the very attributes that made this country great, while doing absolutely nothing to address our own failures to adapt.

A whole lot of people have become insanely wealthy since the world opened up for global trade in the wake of Nixon’s ping-pong diplomacy. Why haven’t you?

“They…” “they…” “they…” “they.
…Sorry, old friend. Wish I could have done more for you….”

 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:15:08

While there is no lack of self-entitlement in this country, do not confused it with the corresponding lack of opportunities as well.

10% unemployment, wage freezes across ALL sectors and millions of jobs sent permanently overseas is not a result of “self-entitlement”…. except among the rich.

 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 13:47:20

“PSFF is spot on his observations today.”

What about PMS? How’s PMS doing today?

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-08-07 17:17:16

Operative word in the entire issue: OPPORTUNITY.

Every day I watch people who’ve clearly have been robbed of economic opportunity yet they mistakenly lay blame on muslims, birth control, pornography, flag burning, abortion, etc. Its a fascinating phenomenon. What is most egregious is their own offspring have even less opportunity and they’re all quite blind to it.

 
Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 17:30:37

FPSS, Americans were adapting pretty fast. Colleges were bursting with computer majors, even high school student knew how to code. And if what I read is right, that H1B’s are able to get by on a two-week computer class, then I’m sure the Americans would have been able to keep up with demand.

And how much would it have mattered if Americans had adapted even faster? As we see, they were outsourced anyway.

I’m not sure of your statement, ahansen. So, after a couple hundreds years of freedom from monarchy and religious persecution, a hundred years of unparalleled innovation, and saving Europe’s bacon more than once, are Americans entitled to anything? Should I just declare defeat and slink into my mud hut now?

 
Comment by ahansen
2011-08-07 21:56:13

Doesn’t matter, what you and I think, oxy. We’re increasingly irrelevant as the rest of the world catches up and surpasses us.

Any sentimental attachment to whatever good the US might have done once-upon-a-time rests mainly in the hearts of the elder demographic here in the US. I mean, sure, I still think of Greece as the cradle of democracy and all, but if you ask me what Greece has done for me lately, at least I won’t say drone-bombing the snot out of wedding and funeral parties….

The younger generations coming up behind us, particularly those outside of the US, couldn’t care less about American “entitlement.” Do you really think kids in Singapore care whether or not we get social security or whether or not we slink into mud huts?

 
 
Comment by mikeinbend
2011-08-07 20:36:05

I would try to be logical but it sucks to be stupid…..so I jest cant do it for the life of me. Tell us about your latest foray’s into the land of the enlightened ‘kay?
Ad hominem much? (and that’s OK? here)

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Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 07:15:17

India has extremely high levels of corruption and fraud. As does China. This won’t end well.

2011-08-07 07:23:35

This is an entirely accurate statement and I speak as one who visits (as a tourist) almost every single year. (Check my website above for pictures.)

It is one of the most corrupt places ever. Almost any transaction needs a bribe.

However, you have to realize what a low base that India is coming off of. There are fortunes to be made in just getting the average citizen to a higher level (similar to America in the early 1900’s.)

You could make a fortune today by providing mechanisms for storing water. I bet the average American hasn’t thought about clean potable water for a few generations at this point.

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Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 07:45:06

Indians get dumped on a fair amount in here, but I admire immigrants who achieve success throught their own talent, drive, and doggedness.

 
2011-08-07 07:57:58

Everyone gets dumped on - the Irish, Italians, the Puerto Ricans.

If you live in New York like I do, and have a good sense of history, you will rapidly realize that the same clichés are bandied about (too stinky, food smells weird, etc.) and then they get assimilated. The older generation dies and the newer generation has seen nothing different.

Indians only migrated post-1960’s (before that it was the UK for obvious reasons) so the phase is late but in no time, you’re going to find that everyone is going to chow down samosas (fried dough! potatoes!!!)

In the UK, the most popular dish is chicken tikka masala (you can’t make this up!)

This absurd reaction is so predictable, it’s like this yawn-inducing moment on a brilliant Sunday morning.

 
Comment by SUGuy
 
Comment by butters
2011-08-07 09:51:18

I cooked Chicken Tikka Masala once. The spice mix will stink up the room. Somehow the ground cumin, coriander, garlic and ginger when mixed together give this awful smell but I have to tell you it tasted great even on the first try.

 
2011-08-07 09:56:09

Let’s start with water, electricity and roads.

It simply doesn’t exist. Anyone that views India (or China) as this competitor needs to actually go there.

Try living outside a hotel for a change. See how that one actually works out for you.

As I keep pointing out, there is money to be made by providing clean potable water in India. That statement is patently false for Americans and has been for about three generations. (And if you think no Americans didn’t make money on that you are soooooooooooooooooo wrong. An entire generation made money on supplying ice before refrigeration.)

 
Comment by GH
2011-08-07 10:02:31

I had always hoped the world would rise to our level and everyone might have an opportunity to be prosperous. The fact is that at our high level of cost of living there is no way we can compete with third world labor without massive disruptions.

I would be willing to bet those who believe off-shoring is just fine would be up in arms if I suggested that it would require massive cuts to Social Security and Medicare.

I used to pay some $40,000 a year in combined tax and since the 2008 crash have not had 1 cent of taxable income. That is $120K in lost tax and growing. My brother in law wonders why he lost his California Park Ranger job a couple of years ago and cannot understand that when my job was lost, his job was too, since I alone paid 1/3 of his salary…

 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 10:02:34

“there is money to be made by providing clean potable water in India.”

Not just in India.

“An entire generation made money on supplying ice before refrigeration.)”

I grew up in a former “ice house”, by the shores of a lake outside of NYC. For years, ice was supplied by the proprietor who hitched old Dobbin to the dray and delivered ice to the locals.

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 16:01:59

As our infrastructure decays, clean water isn’t as assured here as it used to be. I filter all our drinking water through an Aquarain 404 filter, which isn’t cheap at over $300, but does an incredible job. Water tastes noticably better, too.

 
 
Comment by Martin
2011-08-07 10:17:41

India has a massive RE bubble brewing of its own. I think their growth has been primarily caused by Wall street by having the term “BRIC”. It allowed a lot of our retirement funds chasing India’s Sensex for returns. And a lot of IT companies to make better earnings sent jobs outside and not just to India but everywhere other than US. They say that they are send jobs because they are selling in those markets as well. Well, do not outsorce the whole R&D or manufacturing or call center. Just what is needed to be able to sell in those countries.

Wall street sold us and those countries didn’t steal the jobs. I hope the RE bubble in all those countries bursts and there are 30-40% people laid off unlike the US. Then we’ll see if some jobs ca come back.

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2011-08-07 10:32:17

This is true, and I posted about it roughly two years ago.

There are slum-abutting places in Mumbai that sell higher per sq. ft. than Central Park West.

You have absolutely gotta be kiddin’ me. It’s the same bubble and it’s gonna end the same way.

 
Comment by Rancher
2011-08-07 17:46:22

Faster,
If you’ve ever watched how they build apartments
or hi-rise buildings, you’d never set foot in one.
They build roads by putting a family every 100 meters along the proposed roadway and they camp
or make house there. 10 or 20 tons of granite boulders are dumped in the middle of the 100 meter
section and the family breaks it down with hammers and then spread the gravel. Puts people to work and
they don’t spend the money on heavy equipment from
CAT.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Hard Rain
2011-08-07 08:32:49

WORLD leaders and finance chiefs are racing to check heightening tension over the eurozone debt crisis and US credit rating downgrade as the clock ticks on the opening of the markets today.

Senior officials from the Group of 20 held an emergency conference call yesterday as world leaders conferred by phone and governors of the European Central Bank (ECB) prepared for talks before the opening of New Zealand market, the first to trade in Asia-Pacific.

In a sign of the possible trouble to come, the Israeli market fell some six per cent yesterday and other Middle East markets were lower, although they managed to trim some of their losses as investors reacted to Standard & Poor’s unprecedented cut in the US rating to AA+ from AAA.

The news of the downgrade on Friday came after the close of markets battered last week by their worst falls since 2008.

Fears of a global meltdown that some analysts see as potentially worse than the 2008 collapse sent holidaying leaders scrambling in a flurry of phone calls from London to Paris to Washington to stem the tide.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/race-to-stem-new-week-of-market-chaos/story-e6frf7k6-1226110546999

 
Comment by liz pendens
2011-08-07 09:31:11

I read that they are having a “telephone conference” to fix the European Debt problem. Apparently its nothing that can’t be fixed over the phone.

To me this seems pretty arrogant.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2011-08-07 10:44:22

So they shoulda flown to some fancy meeting place in private jets?

Comment by butters
2011-08-07 14:31:33

Yup. You need Davos or Jackson hole or some other fancy place. Most of these problems came from the meetings in these fance places, the solutions must come from there as well. That’s all I ask.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:26:55

Editorial
The cruel politics of credit rating
Sunday, August 07, 2011

WE note with a great deal of interest that the AAA credit rating which the United States of America has always had was downgraded for the first time by Standard & Poor’s to AA+.

This action immediately prompted a sharp rebuke from the US treasury, which pointed out that the adjusted rating was fatally flawed because it was based on calculations including several numerical errors that over-stated the budget deficit by US$2 trillion. This was indeed an egregious error, or was it a deliberate act of political sabotage?

S&P defended its action by intimating that it was based on its judgment that the debt ceiling deal agreed on last week would not be enough to curtail the continuation of record budget deficits.

“The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilise the Government’s medium-term debt dynamics”.

Credit rating agencies such as S&P and Moody’s have an appalling record of issuing judgments which have simply been totally incorrect and unwarranted. Their most notable failure was being wrong about institutions and countries before and since the eruption of the global financial crisis.

Regrettably, they certified financial institutions and companies that collapsed and downgraded others that survived and made profits. Their dubious pronouncements seriously damage firms, banks, shareholders, investors and governments by making it more difficult and costly for their victims to borrow or sometimes their predictions of doom become self-fulfilling prophecies when they spark a contagion of panic. There is no recourse against this irresponsible behaviour.

The credit rating agencies practise a special brand of alchemy which is mostly subjective speculation and not enough careful financial analysis. The accuracy of credit rating agencies is so dubious that many governments have strongly criticised their ratings, among them Jamaica and more recently Barbados.

Maybe now that the injustice has been perpetrated on the US, as against poor, defenceless Third World countries, some remedial measures will be implemented. At one time there was a debate on how they should be regulated and there were even suggestions that they should be replaced by national public sector agencies or multilateral institutions. It would be interesting to explore the possibility of punitive damage against credit rating agencies through legal action in the courts.
l…

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 06:03:23

“True$editionist$$erialEnabler$™” …Hmho (o=Opinion!( ;-)

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 06:39:35

Just because the ratings agencies are corrupt and rate things however the highest bidder wants them rated, does not mean the US really is AAA.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 07:15:13

does not mean the US really is AAA

memory synapse: “Don’t sweat the small stuff…” ;-)

Ha,
x7 family members in a 1959 station wagon pulling a trailer going down that steep route 89 to Sedona AZ ’round midnight. Going downhill around a sharp curve pa gets mightily concerned about a sudden “softness” in the brake pedal, ’bout the same moment ma drops her cigarette on the floor and can’t locate it, cussin’ up a storm…then a kids voice (big Bro) chimes in right on cue…”pa, do ya think the ball hitch is tight?”

Good ol’ pa. Meaningless commotion was deftly absorbed handled.

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2011-08-07 07:42:54

A country spends well beyond its means and a credit rating agency points this out and it is the credit rating agency that is deemed the bad guys?

If you are a citizen who wants his country to get its financial act together then you are considered a whacko?

A Communist country gives pointers to a Capitalist country on how to handle its money?

And millions of people never question any of this? Has everyone gone crazy?

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2011-08-07 10:03:33

Everyone’s been crazy for at least the past decade, combo. Fortunately, it’s how things such as HBB are formed.

 
Comment by CharlieTango
2011-08-07 11:43:59

that’s like blaming your speedometer when you get a speeding ticket

Comment by easthawaii
2011-08-07 12:33:28

hilarious comments today, thanks all

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Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:22:55

“A Communist country gives pointers to a Capitalist country on how to handle its money?

And millions of people never question any of this? Has everyone gone crazy?”

Since no one ever saw (and still doesn’t see) the absurdity of a capitalist country sending it jobs to a communist one in the name of capitalism, I’m not surprised.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:33:56

It may have been the Tea Party’s threatened strategic default on U.S. debt that precipitated S&P’s downgrade. How would you feel if you were a mortgage lender and one of your borrowers stopped by to let you know that he was thinking about defaulting on his mortgage, even though he could still afford the payments?


Reuter’s blogger Felix Salmon said it was clear that the U.S. no longer deserved S&P’s highest AAA rating. He said griping about S&P’s math was silly. Salmon says the real issue is not the U.S.’s ability to pay, it’s the U.S.’s willingness to pay. The ratings agency has to make a call on both when it tells investors the likelihood they will get paid back. And, Salmon says, with a serious contingent of politicians in Washington more than willing to drive the U.S. into default - with many in the Tea Party openly saying they wanted a default and even voting against the 11th and three-quarters hour deal - S&P was well with its analytic right to alert investors to the fact that America’s willingness to pay is in serious question.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 06:03:58

Bingo. “Willingness to pay” means readiness to make tough choices. Which the corporate-owned Republicrats will never do. Disaster will have to overtake us first.

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:24:21

This is the correct motorcycle.

 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 07:00:51

If I were a bank, and someone comes in and says…

“I make $21K a year but I’m spending $38K a year with $2K of that being interest on my existing $140K debt. I need an open-ended line of credit so I can continue to spend $17K a year more than I take in.

Oh, and that $38K a month? Well, I have contracts that are about to come due and increase that drastically… It is expected to be $60K a year spending within 10 years.

I have tried to increase my income or cut my expenses, but I don’t control that. There are 535 people that actually are in charge, and they are highly polarized and all indications are that it is going to be extremely difficult to get them to agree on much of anything.

Even if that group manages to come to an agreeemnt, it is likely to cause a large chunk of them to be fired and replaced by people more likely to cut my income and increase my spending, than people that would continue to pay me more while accepting me giving them less in return.

Oh, and a large portion of my $21K a year income is from the very people I’m giving the $38K to. If the group that manages my income and expenses is able to increase my income and/or cut my spending, and they aren’t immediately replaced by another group that will undo those changes, I’m likely to lose a big chunk of my $21k income as my customers have far less money to give me.

Can I have the loan?”

As a banker with someone in this situation wanting an open-ended line of credit, I’m not sure I really want to grant the loan.

Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 08:58:32

Darrell, what if the guy wanting the loan is your best customer, and always pays interest (no matter where he gets the money), to the point where if he goes under, you may go under as well?

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 09:05:15

Mutually assured destruction, one way or the other. Don’t loan him the money, you are broke today. Do loan him the money, and you are broke tomorrow.

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2011-08-07 10:51:14

“If you owe the bank $100 that’s your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that’s the bank’s problem.”

Substitute “China” for “bank.” We have more leverage than most of us imagine.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 11:00:27

Kick the can, baby! Why default on $13T when you can default later on $50T?

 
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-08-07 11:53:58

A trillion here, a trillion there and before you know it you’re talking about some serious coin.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2011-08-07 11:56:58

Restricting our borrowing would not result in default on existing debt. Obama/Geithner doublespeak. It would result in you maybe losing your government cheese. The minions’ acceptance of absurdities mouthed by the party demagogs is nothing new, but is sure is amusing.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 15:10:19

Tell it to the credit rating agencies. They apparently didn’t buy your talking point, delivered to you by the TeaKoch party demagogs.

 
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 15:13:42

I am not so worried about losing my government cheese. At this point, I don’t collect directly.

I am worried about the effect of other people losing their government cheese on my ability to continue working to support my family. (Is that whiney self-pity?)

The loss of government cheese will ripple through the economy, eventually affecting all of us. I expect the number of winners to be vanishingly small, both here and abroad. I expect even the wealthiest to suffer significant losses. Most of them will probably remain wealthy and may not experience lifestyle changes.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:39:06

Prediction: From now until at least the 2012 presidential elections, Republicans will be in perpetual public denial that it was their intransigent negotiating style that led to the S&P downgrade.

Denial ain’t a river in Egypt, folks. There is a price to be paid for politicians who try to prove how tough they are by never compromising.

S&P and the USA
Paul Krugman - New York Times Blog
August 5, 2011, 9:19 pm
S&P and the USA

OK, so Standard and Poors has gone ahead with the threatened downgrade. It’s a strange situation.

On one hand, there is a case to be made that the madness of the right has made America a fundamentally unsound nation. And yes, it is the madness of the right: if not for the extremism of anti-tax Republicans, we would have no trouble reaching an agreement that would ensure long-run solvency.

On the other hand, it’s hard to think of anyone less qualified to pass judgment on America than the rating agencies. The people who rated subprime-backed securities are now declaring that they are the judges of fiscal policy? Really?

Just to make it perfect, it turns out that S&P got the math wrong by $2 trillion, and after much discussion conceded the point — then went ahead with the downgrade.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 06:13:22

Krugman is a lapdog of the corporatists and the Obama Administration.

Comment by SDGreg
2011-08-07 09:14:48

“Krugman is a lapdog of the corporatists and the Obama Administration.”

You don’t read Krugman much, do you? He’s hardly been an Obama fan, either now or when he was running for President. I wouldn’t say the corporatists would be fond of Krugman’s policy recommendations either.

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:34:28

SDGreg is right. You don’t read much Krugman.

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Comment by butters
2011-08-07 15:24:27

You don’t have to read him. He’s as predictable as Palin.

 
 
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 06:13:35

I wish this guy would STFU.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 07:18:36

I read him only to see what line of attack the globalists are pursuing, and what further asset-stripping of the productive economy they’re cooking up.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 06:19:05

intransigent negotiating style

Their “TrueI’m-a-Pledge$igner™” style ain’t nothin’ new, it’s their timing during this National eCONomic mael$troms that reveals ‘em as “TrueGridLok$editionist’s™” ;-)

“TrueReduceTheDeficitNow!! Today!™” / “TrueAnger™” / “TrueGridLok™” “TrueGetlil’Opie™” weeParty tea toadlers

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 06:37:46

“S&P’s one-notch downgrade of the U.S. sovereign credit rating to AA-plus, while not totally unexpected, adds another level of uncertainty. Loss of gold-plated status for the world’s benchmark interest rate risks pushing up borrowing costs on everything from car loans, mortgages and corporate debt to government bonds worldwide.”

“However justified, S&P couldn’t have picked a worse time to downgrade the U.S.,”

By Paul Taylor and Stella Dawson / PARIS/WASHINGTON (Reuters)

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2011-08-07 10:54:49

“ensure long-run solvency…” Yeah, sure. Even when we owe a quadrillion dollars, no problem.

Krugman is a CPA- certified public azzhole.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 15:19:07

“if not for the extremism of anti-tax Republicans, we would have no trouble reaching an agreement that would ensure long-run solvency.”

Ooh! Ooh! Mr. Kot-ter! Mr Kot-ter! I know the talking point to this one!

‘American government doesn’t have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem! signed, Arnold’s Kochgrassroots website.’

Do I get a made-in-China stuffed Kochtopus as a prize, now?

 
Comment by nickpapageorgio
2011-08-07 21:49:15

You must be on the same talking points fast blast as the progressive fringe media.

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 05:41:09

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14435251

The usual lament from clueless city leaders after urban riots: “No one could have anticipated this level of violence.”

As economic malaise spreads and austerity forces both social services and emergency services and law enforcement cuts, these riots are going to become a lot worse and a lot more widespread, in the UK, Europe, and here. And in most US cities, liberal and corrupt Democrat administrations will see to it the the populations that will be victimized the most are not able to legally defend themselves with handguns or other firearms.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 07:08:40

Sorry, but this kind of violence happens in good times and bad. Algerain riots in France, L.A. riots after Rodney King cops not guilty, L.A. was again threatening to riot if a group of kids that beat up people on Halloween were found guilty…

This is not a symptom of economics, but rather thugs attempting to get their way through violation of the law.

Comment by Nat Turner
2011-08-07 17:02:40

“This is not a symptom of economics, but rather thugs attempting to get their way through violation of the law.”

Or people standing up for themselves against a system that is not representing their interests. I bet you would call those tea party idiots “thugs” if they decided to revolt or riot.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 18:30:48

Meanwhile, closer to home:

Eight dead, including gunman, in Ohio shooting spree
By the CNN Wire Staff
August 7, 2011 8:13 p.m. EDT

Law enforcement officers investigate Sunday after a gunman shot to death seven people in Copley Township, Ohio.

(CNN) — Seven people, including an 11-year-old child, were shot and killed in a small town in northeastern Ohio on Sunday in a rampage that ended when police killed the suspected gunman, authorities said.

The shootings occurred about 11 a.m. in Copley Township, about seven miles west of Akron, according to the Summit County Medical Examiner’s Office.

Copley Police Chief Michael Mier told CNN affiliate WJW that the shooting began after an argument in a residence. Five people were killed at the home. Two more were killed on a nearby road, Mier said.

A woman who lives near the scene of the shootings described how one of the gunman’s would-be victims fled.

“Somebody knocked on my door and a woman was at my porch, hiding on my porch,” Lindy McCrady told WJW.

When McCrady opened the door, the woman ran inside and told McCrady “somebody had shot her husband point blank in the head. … And then she started screaming, ‘My son, my son, my 11-year-old son.’”

Authorities said one victim was 11 years old.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:47:07

The Republican spin machine’s “BLAME OBAMA” campaign is spinning away madly to cover up culpability for the S&P credit downgrade. Good luck with that plan! Propaganda will only get you so far in a country with a free press.

S&P Blames GOP For U.S. Credit Problem, Associated Press, Politico Cover It Up

The Standard & Poors’ rating agency decision to reduce the United States’ long term debt from AAA to AA+ was explained in a press release that specifically mentioned “the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues,” should, itself, make headlines like “Standard And Poors Blames U.S. Credit Rating Reduction On Republicans.”

But the fact is, some publications, most notable The Associated Press and Politico, are working (thus far) to cover up S&P’s finger-pointing at Republicans. Instead, they appear to be pointing their own fingers at President Obama - someone not mentioned in the Standard and Poor’s press release.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 06:02:23

Bush put two open-ended wars on the national credit card, while cutting taxes. The Establishment GOP can’t escape its own culpability, dissemble though they may, in creating the mess we’re in.

Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 06:12:26

Testify, brothah!

 
Comment by bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-08-07 07:26:31

Exactly. At some point the American public will take to the streets and demand a massive pullout from these wars. And a pullout will happen. It will take years of agitation first. It is a matter of “when” Joe Six Pack says we as a nation cannot afford to be a world cop. Only one presidential candidate says that: Ron Paul.

Ron Paul strongly and publicly opposed GWB’s Patriot act and wars WHILE GWB was president.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 07:34:21

At some point the American public will take to the streets and demand a massive pullout from these wars.

Sadly, the vast majority of the American public are as docile as they are stupid - witness the results of the 2008 elections, when 95% of the voters once again pulled the lever, lemming-like, for the Republicrat status quo. Our population is so genetically and culturally dumbed down I can’t see any meaningful change until the full consequences of our cumulative follies catch up to us.

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Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 07:52:23

The pullouts are already happening. Where have you BEEN?

Russ Feingold also voted against the Patriot Act. Let’s make him president.

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Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:38:14

No kidding.

Does ANYBODY pay attention these days?

And yet people wonder why this country is in trouble.

‘CAUSE YOU CAN’T FIX OUR SPECIAL KIND OF STUPID, THAT’S WHY.

 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2011-08-07 10:46:04

The people that need to take the lead on this are the same people with the Support the Troops attitude. I’m surprised the families of those overseas mostly see this as them doing their “duty” to the country instead of what it is: a money-draining, family-straining farce.

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Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 16:08:39

Bush really sold the “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here” meme.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 06:25:28

“…continue to resist any measure that would raise revenue$,”

ronnie Raygun: “now, …there you go again”

Prologue
Act I, Scene 2:

“Increasing America’s debt weakens us dome$tically and internationally…Instead, Washington’s Cheney-$hrub is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the back$ of our children and grandchildren”

A Country in Denial About Taxes: :-)
Investing / Forbes / Jul. 12 2011 /Leonard Burman The Impertinent Economist

“Back in the olden days, we acknowledged that wars cost money and didn’t think that our children should pay the entire cost, with interest. (Imagine that!) There were huge tax increases to finance World War II and the Korean War, and fairly significant ones to pay for Vietnam.”

 
Comment by salinasron
2011-08-07 06:45:27

Ah yes, let’s wallow around in self pity and play the blame game for the American public, family and friends. Does it make you feel better? Has it improved your life or quality of living? Misery truly does love company!

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 07:17:25

There is an election a year from now that both sides are desperate to win.

Wall Street is desperate to win because the Obama administration is standing in the way of them trying to inflate a new bubble. How are they supposed to make any money when Dodd-Frank is blocking their efforts to lie, cheat, steal and dump toxic waste on unsuspescting suckers? How are they supposed to make money when Obama’s DoJ is breaking up their expert networks and other mechanisims by which they were thumbing thier noses against insider trading?

#1 goal of the Republican party? Oh, right. Make sure Obama is a 1-term president. Not create jobs, not help the middle-class, not plug trade deficits or bring manufactring jobs back, or find ways to trim healthcare costs or…

Nope. The #1 goal of Republicans is to ensure Obama is a 1-term president.

Comment by Blue Skye
2011-08-07 12:07:23

“The #1 goal of Republicans is to ensure Obama is a 1-term president”

Not so. It doesn’t matter who is president, or which party they come from, as long as they are a good-ole-boy and will play by the rules. Obama is proof of that. he got eleceted because he pretended to have a different agenda than sucking up to the monied elite and maintaining the status quo of the corrupt political system in DC. He’ll have to get a new schtik to play another round. Problem for us is that many think switching jerseys will make some effing difference, while we don’t change the game or who pays the players.

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Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:40:35

Uh…

“The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president,” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell told National Journal’s Major Garrett in October.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:42:20

And, once again, for those of you with a memory retention problem:

Republicans block ending offshore jobs tax breaks | Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68R40I20100928

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 15:44:04

“Republicans block ending offshore jobs tax breaks | Reuters”

And how did St. Ron Paul vote?

Well, two republicans voted in favor of the bill, and he wasn’t one of them.

And he’s the supposed ‘third-party’ * candidate that really could shake things up if the rest of us would just see his wisdom and perfection? Ha!

*(I’ve never understood how he’s forgiven his ‘republicrat’ status, when everyone else is judged a mor0n for having it, but I guess that’s part of being worshipped by idealists)

 
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 21:55:58

If there was any spending in it, then I am not surprised he voted no.

 
 
Comment by butters
2011-08-07 14:26:48

Nope. The #1 goal of Republicans is to ensure Obama is a 1-term president.

What does that mean? Why aren’t you talking about the #1 goal of Dems to re-elect Obama? I mean politicians saying and doing silly things. Big fooking deal.

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Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 17:33:48

“Why aren’t we talking about the #1 goal of Dems to re-elect Obama?”

Because re-electing Obama ISN’T the #1 goal of Dems?

Rather than uniting against R’s, Dems have been eating their own for months. Go to the *ahem* liberal website — you know the one. You will find that half the entries there are anti-Obama.

 
 
 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2011-08-07 10:52:47

The Standard & Poors’ rating agency decision to reduce the United States’ long term debt from AAA to AA+ was explained in a press release that specifically mentioned “the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues,” should, itself, make headlines like “Standard And Poors Blames U.S. Credit Rating Reduction On Republicans.”

Is it just me, or is this a badly written, run-on sentence?

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-08-07 12:04:15

This is an example of your education tax dollars at work.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:52:42

The Myth of the Middle Class Mortgage Deduction
The mortgage interest deduction no longer primarily benefits the middle class
Anthony Randazzo | August 5, 2011

Conventional wisdom has it that without the ability to deduct mortgage interest from federal taxes, homeownership rates and housing prices would tumble. Worse, middle class families would be relegated a fate worse than foreclosure: renting. Two decades ago, these dire predictions may have had some relationship to reality. But in recent years, the middle class has seen its share of the mortgage interest deduction (MID) steadily erode, undermining the political case for retaining the subsidy.

In 1991, households earning near the inflation-adjusted median income of around $50,000 were 48 percent of those benefiting from the MID (see nearby chart). That share has fallen to 30 percent in 2009, while at the same time the portion of households claiming the MID with six-figure salaries or higher has tripled from 13.5 percent to 41.5 percent.

What caused this trend? The answer lies in understanding who really benefits from the mortgage interest deduction, and how much the specialized subsidy is worth.

In 2009, only one-fourth of taxpayers in 2009 claimed the mortgage interest deduction. And this has been a relatively stable historical trend, with between 21 and 26 percent of taxpayers claiming the MID each year since 1991. Of those few who do benefit from the MID, most are households in the top income brackets and younger individuals with large mortgages 
who have not paid off much of their loans. Families where the head of household is between 25 and 35 years-old with incomes over $250,000 have, on average, a $7,711 deduction from mortgage interest, compared to a similar household with earnings between $40,000 and $75,000 a year, and taking an average $571 deduction. Meanwhile, low-income families, seniors, and Americans without mortgages gain virtually nothing from the program.

Many Americans believe the mortgage interest deduction allows them to deduct their entire interest payments from their tax bills—and make home purchasing decisions based on that misunderstanding. Instead, the MID lowers taxable income. Tax bills are lowered, but that’s a much smaller benefit.

When considering the actual tax savings of the mortgage interest deduction, the benefits to the middle class become even more meager. The average tax savings for households with income between $40,000 and $75,000 is just $152 a year. That’s $12.66 a month. Compare that to the highest earners, those making $200,000 or more, who see an average of $1,862 a year off their tax bills because of the MID benefit.

One reason often cited for preserving the mortgage interest deduction is the belief that it helps increase 
the homeownership rate. But as it turns out, the MID is an inefficient tool for increasing homeownership. Since 1994, the homeownership level has gone from 64.2 percent up to 69.2 percent 
in 2004 and then down to 66.4 percent today. The recession and collapse of the housing market is largely responsible
 for the decrease in homeownership. If the mortgage interest deduction were driving people to buy homes we would expect to see some correlation between homeownership rates and the use of the deduction, but we don’t. The total mortgage interest deduction subsidy has grown from roughly $50 billion to $80 billion since 1994 with little impact on homeownership levels.

This is because those households that rent but would prefer to own a home—if they had just a bit more financial flexibility—are typically low-income families. And if they bought a home they would be much less likely to itemize their deductions and claim the MID because they are low-income in the first place. For median income families that do itemize, a $12.66 per month tax savings is not likely to be the difference between affording a mortgage payment and renting. As a result, rather than increasing the homeownership rate, the primary impact of the MID is to increase the amount spent on housing by consumers who would likely choose to own a home anyway, subsidizing spending on housing rather than homeownership.

Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 07:58:40

“Many Americans believe the mortgage interest deduction allows them to deduct their entire interest payments from their tax bills—and make home purchasing decisions based on that misunderstanding.”

I’m just waiting for some Re-al-TOR scum to try to confuse me with the difference between tax deduction and tax credit. Believe me, I relish the idea of going through Re-al-TORs the way that Donald Trump goes through celebrity apprentices.

Comment by Blue Skye
2011-08-07 12:09:43

Money is power! It won’t be worth the momentary testosterone rush to go into long term debt in a market that has nowhere to go but down.

 
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-08-07 12:11:00

The tax deduction calculation really gets lost in the national cloud of financial ignorance.

If you live in a state with no state income tax, the value of the MID is even less because effectively you’re only deducting the amount that your mortgage interest and real estate taxes exceed the standard deduction.

 
 
Comment by OcBystander
2011-08-08 10:42:02

The MID is an easy target when interest rates are low, and every mortgage holder with two brain cells to rub together has refi-ed into a ~%5. However, if rates return to “normal”, say 7-9%, then it makes the MID a bit more meaningful.

That said, I wholeheartedly endorse limiting this to principal residences.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 05:55:14

Limits on mortgage-interest deduction worth considering

The Seattle Times editorial page argues that the federal income tax deduction for mortgage interest could be limited to debt on principal residences, and in other ways.

THE news this week included a report that Congress may cut back the tax deduction for mortgage interest. Done carefully, this could be a good thing. It could help lower the federal deficit and the growth in the national debt with little hurt to homeownership.

In gross dollars, the mortgage tax deduction is one of the largest exemptions in the federal tax code. About 25 percent of taxpayers benefit from it, with more benefit at the upper end. The more you borrow, up to $1 million, the greater the deduction you get. That makes this tax break especially valuable for people who buy the biggest houses or who live in regions with the highest house prices, such as Los Angeles and San Francisco.

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 06:11:50

Posted this yesterday, but looking at the comments in the PB Post it seems like more and more people are catching on to some of these victims. The first time this story was in the local paper in April, I posted Lynn Szymoniak`s refis and I was attacked by the I shouldn`t have to pay anyone I was cheated by the evil banks they don`t even know who I owe the money to I should get my house for free it was my equity crowd. And I never posted the “equity” she took out of her condo, just her house. That alone took up more space than this entire post.

‘60 Minutes’ to re-air show featuring Palm Beach County foreclosure case

By Kimberly Miller Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Posted: 12:27 p.m. Friday, Aug. 5, 2011

The CBS news show 60 Minutes will re-air a segment Sunday featuring a Palm Beach County homeowner fighting an allegedly fraudulent foreclosure that exposed the now infamous robo-signer Linda Green.

The segment, which originally aired in April, led officials from Michigan, Massachusetts and North Carolina to pull court documents bearing Green’s name and forward them to federal regulators and attorneys general.

Palm Beach Gardens homeowner Lynn Szymoniak, whose foreclosure is highlighted in the show, said she approaches the re-airing with mixed feelings because she said lenders and politicians have largely ignored the evidence presented.

“By far, my overwhelming feeling four months later is anger mixed with renewed determination to speak the truth,” Szymoniak said. “I am very disturbed by the power of the banks.”

19 COMMENTS

She sure did like to refi. In 2006 it looks like she cashed out over a million on her home and condo. Then she stopped making payments when the values dropped. She’s lucky the banks have been slow due to “pretend and extend”.

The lady is a deadbeat leech.

Cheeseus Sonofdog
5:38 PM, 8/5/2011

So think about it. This ATTORNEY hasn’t paid a mortgage payment since 2006. She know how to “play” the system. She needs to be put in JAIL. Come on America, are we that stupid?

REALLY America

Its funny… You refinance for 3 times your house cost you when you bought it and spent the money on your house and now you cant pay the money back and you are mad? That is stealing… If I was a bank I would make it so you would never be able to borrow again. Maybe a education would have helped when you signed the dotted line.. Well im not made because now I live in a great place brand new foreclosure some stupid person gave up and I paid next to nothing. haha!!! HAVE FUN DRIVEN YOUR KIA!

Im Rich BIOOTCH
11:17 AM, 8/6/2011
11:16 AM, 8/6/2011

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/foreclosures/60-minutes-to-re-air-show-featuring-palm-1698955.html - 88k

Comment by Natalie
2011-08-07 07:36:46

Poor journalism like this is why I don’t watch 60 Minutes. I could understand a story about bank fraud, but to try to say imply that the foreclosures were the result of bank fraud and that people not paying their mortgage should be allowed stay their homes for free if the bank lost the documents is more offensive than the fraud alleged. Shame on you 60 Minutes. The deeds were signed over to the initial bank. If I was the judge on these cases, I would just ask the initial bank to sign new documents confirming that they were actually assigned to the new alleged beneficiary. End of story. No free houses for deadbeats. Also, why did they not delve deeper into why a lawyer is refusing to vacate the home she is not paying for? The lawyer is just as bad if not worse than the banks. She should be imprisoned.

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-08-07 12:17:55

Can a lawyer be disbarred for behaving like this?

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:46:43

Depends on the state.

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Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 15:31:19

“If I was the judge on these cases, I would just ask the initial bank to sign new documents confirming that they were actually assigned to the new alleged beneficiary.”

So the bank should just be allowed to make up documents because they are a bank and would never participate in a fraud? Should the courts have one set of rules for the banks and another set for the rest of us? The rest of us have to prove that we have standing to sue.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 16:57:58

“The lawyer is just as bad if not worse than the banks. She should be imprisoned.”

So you agree that the bankers should also go to prison. Well, that’s a little progress.

Of course, failure to pay a contract is not nearly the crime that fraud and forgery are.

In fact, failure to pay a contract is not a crime at all, which a lawyer should know.

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 07:39:20

“By far, my overwhelming feeling four months later is anger mixed with renewed determination to speak the truth,” Szymoniak said. “I am very disturbed by the power of the banks.”

Legal Description: HORSESHOE ACRES WEST REPL LOT 12 BLK 5
Apr-1998 10392/0989 $392,800 WARRANTY DEED SZYMONIAK LYNN E

Date/Time: 7/18/2001 09:36:59
Consideration: $220,000.00
Party 1: SZYMONIAK LYNN E
Party 2: FIRST UN NAT BK
Legal: HORSHOE AC W. RPL B5 L12 BL

Date/Time: 9/15/2004 17:18:11
Consideration: $270,269.69
Party 1: SZYMONIAK LYNN E
Party 2: WACHOVIA BANK NATIONAL ASSOCIATION
Legal: HORSHOE AC W. RPL B5 L12 BL

Date/Time: 1/3/2005 11:28:53
Consideration: $415,000.00
Party 1: SZYMONIAK LYNN E
Party 2: USA SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
Legal: HORSHOE AC W. RPL B5 L12 BL

Date/Time: 2/15/2006 08:27:13
Consideration: $780,000.00
Party 1: SZYMONIAK LYNN E
Party 2: OPTION ONE MORTGAGE CORPORATION
Legal: HORSHOE AC W. RPL B5 L12 BL

Type: LP
Date/Time: 8/6/2008 16:00:12
CFN: 20080293601
Book Type: O
Book/Page: 22796/1110
Pages: 1
Consideration: $0.00
Party 1: DEUTSCHE BANK NATIONAL TRUST COMPANY TRUSTEE
Party 2: SZYMONIAK LYNN E
DOE JANE
DOE JOHN
SZYMONIAK SPOUSE
Legal: HORSHOE AC W. RPL B5 L12 BL

Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 09:11:59

Let me understand this: Is “consideration” the price of the new mortgage? So in order to figure the cash-out, do I substract the previous consideration from the next one?

Did she really pull a half-million out of this house?

Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 09:41:37

” Is “consideration” the price of the new mortgage?”

Yes. There are a couple of SAT (satisfactions) mixed in but this woman stole a pile of money. Go to the site and put SZYMONIAK LYNN E in and you can see for yourself.

http://www.mypalmbeachclerk.com/OrisSearch - 43k -

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Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 10:02:57

I just saw this for the first time, if you hit the site and put Lynn`s name in go to the second page hit SZYMONIAK LYNN E MORTGAGE ELECTRONIC REGISTRATION SYSTEMS INC 09/22/2004 REL 17549 1583 20040543821 SQUARE LK click on the image and there is a Linda Green signature.

Still doesn`t seem wothy of stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars and living rent free since 2006. But hey, that`s me.

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Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 10:14:01

“Did she really pull a half-million out of this house?”

I think she got more than that out of the house, that neighborhood was selling well north of a million at the peak and she took advantage of it. If you throw in the condo cash outs she is way over half-million.

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Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 17:30:33

What did she do that was illegal?

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 07:42:04

Testify, Brother Jeff. The galactic sense of entitlement that landed these FBs in houses they couldn’t afford, and caused them to use their houses as personal ATMs during the bubble years, now turns to a pathological sense of victimization at the hands of the evil banks. Yes, the lenders and mortgage servicers were reckless, irresponsible, and in quite a few cases, profoundly amoral if not criminal. Obama’s #2 backers, Goldman Sachs, come to mind. But that doesn’t in any way excuse the actions of the Lynn Szymoniaks of the world. The sooner she ends up being foreclosed on, the better.

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:49:26

That’s the thing, isn’t it.

The RE industry was scamming which led many FBs to figure “why not scam the scammers?”

Thus, creating a feedback loop.

Moral hazard, indeed.

 
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 06:19:26

“England swings like a pendulum do
bobbies on bicycles two by two
Westminster Abbey the Tower of Big Ben
the rosy red cheeks of the little children”

Roger Miller

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 07:21:20

Roger Miller’s England is long gone, thanks to successive Labor and (catastrophically misnamed) Conservative governments. Been to Londonistan lately?

2011-08-07 08:31:28

Journalist: Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of Western Civilization?

Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-08-07 12:20:42

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

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Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 12:57:43

ROTFLMAO!

Good one, Bubba!

 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:50:40

BA DUMP BA!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2011-08-07 06:24:00

Manistique Paper Mill Closing After 90 Years
Big blow to 150 workers

MANISTIQUE, Mich. (AP) — Stung by the economy, a paper mill that has operated in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula for 90 years is closing, a big blow to 150 workers and a community that has benefited from its philanthropy.

Manistique Papers, known as MPI, said Friday it’s filing for bankruptcy and seeking a buyer after failing to reach an agreement with a lender.

“The business circumstances leading to this decision were unforeseen. We are as shocked by this as everyone else,” general manager Jon Johnson said in a statement. “We had thought and hoped that the lender would allow us to continue operations while we searched for alternative financing.”

The Daily Press in Escanaba (http://bit.ly/ovsbZS) said the company cited a steady increase in the cost of raw materials and lower demand as reasons for its financial woes. MPI made paper from recycled fibers.

“While our values and service have not changed since 1920, the American economy has changed,” Johnson said.

Manistique, population 3,300, is on Lake Michigan, 90 miles west of the Mackinac Bridge, which connects Michigan’s peninsulas.

“Hopefully they find a buyer,” resident Debra Rumrill said. “It’s just a trickle-down effect; all of those people spend their money here in Manistique. It affects the school system, too. It’s tough.”

Sandy Patrick, owner of the Aunt Sandy’s Health and Gourmet Foods, said MPI made contributions all over Manistique. “It’s sad,” she said.

City Manager Sheila Aldrich said the company has been an “icon to Manistique and Schoolcraft County.”

Johnson said he’s not giving up, despite the decision to shut down.

“We will work diligently to find new owners and to bring the noise of a successful paper mill back to Manistique,” he said.

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:52:48

…the company cited a steady increase in the cost of raw materials and lower demand as reasons for its financial woes.

Nope, no stagflation here!

 
Comment by jane
2011-08-07 15:46:09

New Oil City Plan location.

As long as it has a coupla docs who like the lifestyle, who’s to complain?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2011-08-07 06:25:59

It’s all about money
And fundamentals, such as backing our currency, still apply.

American politics has revolved around slavery, free coinage of silver, civil rights, big government, little government, and a chicken in every pot. The dominant question today is money.

I think politics for the near future will be about money — how government should create it in the form of credit, how government spends it, how much it borrows, and above all, how much should be controlled by the private sector instead of government. If you want to talk about jobs, the economy, and deficits, the place to start is money.

That, of course, has always been an elusive concept to understand and even more elusive to handle, though for more than two millennia money has been fundamental to Western civilization.

Gold and silver first served that purpose. The metals were attractive and scarce but not too rare to use as media of exchange. Beauty and rarity made them things of intrinsic value. However, the Greeks and, later, the Romans discovered the use of fiduciary money, giving base-metal coins (copper or brass) an arbitrary value beyond their metallic worth. In the Roman empire and in India and China gold and silver were used as stores of value while most marketplace transactions were carried out with copper coins. The invention of paper money was only a refinement of this.

However, the value of early paper money issued by governments was precarious unless it was backed by, or exchangeable into, gold or silver. Experiments with notes backed only by the credit of the state, whether in France or America, were disastrous.

In the 19th century paper came into use, in advanced nations, when a bill represented a finite amount of precious metal. For many years the U.S. government could not, by law, print a note unless its face value in gold was held in the treasury. Less-advanced nations printed paper with widely fluctuating values, and economic theory held that a prosperous industrial economy could not exist without a stable currency.

Wars and depressions did away with all that. Today money is backed only by the faith and credit of government; its value is what government says it is and can make it stick. And just as under the gold standard, some governments can manage their money, most cannot.

In fact, anything can be used for money, with three provisos: It must be hard to counterfeit; there must be enough of it for commercial needs and to allow economic growth; there must not be too much of it, either in cash or credits, because this leads to distortions (bubbles and busts) and inflation. All our recessions have been caused by too much cheap money in the form of credit. This is the reason we created the Federal Reserve — to manage the money supply.

Because of politics — some part of society always demands cheap money, another part stability — the Federal Reserve’s role has always been hampered. In the 1970s Congress made the Fed’s role contradictory and impossible by charging it with maintaining employment as well as managing money. You know how well this has worked: deepening monetary, economic, and political crisis.

The problem with money is that, as time goes by, the fundamental things still apply.

Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/It-s-all-about-money-1643727.php#ixzz1ULiItYc9

Comment by rms
2011-08-07 06:42:14

“Wars and depressions did away with all that.”

Don’t forget the expensive Great Society Programs.

2011-08-07 06:52:06

I’m no fan of handouts but I’m no fan of watching grandma starving on the street either.

You could close 90% of US overseas bases with absolutely NO implication on security. The ones that are getting the handout are (certain) military families not the food stamp people.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 07:29:16

Yep. The cost of not avoiding the “needless foreign entanglements” Washington warned us about, or the neo-con proclivity of “going abroad in search of monsters to slay” despite Jefferson’s admonition against it, have imposed staggering human and financial costs on this country since WWII.

If Grandma lived her life making bad choices and shirking responsibilty, seeing her starving on the street might make the young’uns wise up and build their houses on solid ground, so to speak. People shouldn’t be insulated from the consequences of their own irresponsibility. When you look at the utter selfishness and cumulative bad decisons of the Boomers (recognizing there are many individual exceptions), seeing them end up out on the street wouldn’t bother me in the least, after the mess they’ve created for subsequent generations.

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Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:55:55

*sigh*

What utter bullcrap. Most boomers DID NOT vote for deregulation of offshoring jobs in the 1980s, which is THE direct cause of our problems.

It was shoved down EVERYONE’S throat and in other unmentionable orifices as well.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 13:57:09

…OR offshoring…

“or”

 
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 15:40:51

“People shouldn’t be insulated from the consequences of their own irresponsibility.”

Like getting cancer or supporting a child with Down’s syndrome or being crashed into by a drunk driver or having your job outsourced or impoverishing yourself to pay for a spouse’s medical care. That irresponsibility?

“If Grandma lived her life making bad choices and shirking responsibilty, seeing her starving on the street might make the young’uns wise up and build their houses on solid ground, so to speak.”

What solid ground?

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 16:05:15

Good point. Not much solid ground even for those who do right and play by the rules. ESPECIALLY for them.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 19:53:51

“What solid ground?”

The solid ground provided by living in a society that allows old people to starve to death in the streets. Now that’s a society that you know is going to last. The kind you want your kids to grow up in.

 
 
Comment by bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-08-07 07:32:33

Let’s work on closing all our overseas bases first, stop foreign aid, then work on eliminating unconstitutional entitlements gradually, like ten percent per year for ten years, then abolish them. Abolish the income tax at the same time for the stimulus the economy should have had in the first place.

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Comment by oxide
2011-08-07 08:02:20

I want to do that too, except let’s start that process 25 years ago, BEFORE you made your pile off those “unconstitutional” programs.

Would you advocate for this contraction under those conditions, Bill?

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 08:13:36

While this may help stop the increase in leverage in the system, it does nothing to help unwind the leverage we already have.

You cut spending, you cut peoples’ ability to pay back their debt. The rich can’t get paid back, unless they first give the poor the money that the poor need to pay back all the money that they owe the poor.

 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2011-08-07 08:37:01

I would like to see jobs for the military people after we cut the military budget or additional problems come about . Bring back manufacturing to America !Tax outsourcing and outmanufacturing as Darrel has been suggesting lately in his posts along with all the other great ideas he has posted ,along with bill in Phoenix .

Need solutions ,not kick the can down the road while the Elite figure out how to game the system and reduce the Middle class to paupers.

Someone mentioned how some Billionaire was complaining over the prospect that he might be taxed more and this greedy bastard said taxing him more was on the level of the Nazi Germany crimes . This is how insane these Madhatters have gotten in their greed and quest for power at the expense of the Majority .

 
Comment by Bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-08-07 17:00:39

25 years ago I would be age 27. That was 1988 and my annual income was under $29,000. Federal employee. I was paid lower than my contemporaries in private industry.

Yes I would have been able to handle that. I would have had to eat beans and Mac ‘n cheese for a couple of years but I would have gotten into Silicon Valley and stayed with it.

Here is my set of skills:

Embedded Software engineering with the full development lifecycle, including writing requirements from systems specs, requirements analysis, high level design, detailed design, coding, unit testing, integration testing with hardware. A variety of tools over a few decades to help it along. A variety of high level languages and Assembler. Real Time Operating Systems-based development.

Languages: Primarily C, then Ada, ARM assembler, Java.

Tools: Rhapsody, Rational Rose (before Rhapsody), VxWorks, Green Hills, Vector cast, Rational Clearcase, Realview,

Networking: IPsec, SNMP

My job shop, which I have been with for 11 years this month, has done an outstanding effort in getting me contract engineering gigs. Only three weeks of downtime since August 2000. I have confidence it will keep this habit. I have a great reputation with the clients. The job shop pays me top dollar because I provide it potential consultants to recruit and let them know what is going on in the industry. The same shop charges a high markup for the green types - too new to know about the markup and the rates.

 
Comment by butters
2011-08-07 17:12:57

No reason to worry Bill in Tampa. You have skills that will still be very much in demand for a long time to come. It’s no secret China and India aren’t producing good Engineers like you fast enough. And also from what I read, MBA is the big fad in Chinndia now.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2011-08-07 08:43:50

“I’m no fan of handouts but I’m no fan of watching grandma starving on the street either”.

So what happened before food stamps?

The word “starvation” is total BullSh!t, in regards to the U.S. The cases of true starvation in this country are so few and far between they can hardly be counted. Now going hungry is a different story. There have been and always will be charitable people and organizations in this country. SNAP is now just another fall back crutch(safety net)it has to be in plastic card form so as not to cause a person to feel any shame or embarrassment. Or else it would not be fair.

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Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 09:00:09

The rich that have spent less than they earned, were able to earn that money only because they loaned it to poor people that were spending more than they made.

The rich are going to have to begin spending more than they make, or the poor are NEVER going to have the money they need to pay back the rich.

 
2011-08-07 09:05:08

You may never have seen starvation but I’ve seen it.

You are basically lying. Lying through your teeth.

I’m no effin’ liberal but to claim that starvation doesn’t exist means you have led a very charmed existence (one that is going to be taken away from you.)

 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 09:56:14

It has been said by Noam Chomsky that in the US, starvation looks like obesity. Bit of a paraphrase, but that was the gist.

 
2011-08-07 10:44:03

Chomsky lives in Cambridge, MA. I bet you he has never been to Alabama, Missouri or Louisiana.

Most of Louisiana is closer in spirit to rural India or the Philippines than it is to urban New York but the average talking head (including here) would never know that.

Nor would they understand the concept of “sustenance farming”. That’s Louisiana.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 11:16:16

Something else to remember from the “good ole days” before there were gov’t programs was that life expectancy was much, much lower than today. Grandma probably kicked the bucket in her 50’s while she was still able to work.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2011-08-07 12:15:13

FPSS, gotta disagree with you here. Yes, Louisiana is very much like a foreign country—I would know, I moved there in 8th grade, and didn’t leave until after college.

But in all my years there, I did not see anything remotely like starvation, and I did see a LOT of obesity.

Sustenance farming? Didn’t see that either. What part of Louisiana did you see this in?

 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 12:54:34

Sustenance farming? Huh? Did somebody mean “subsistence”, maybe?

 
Comment by palmetto
2011-08-07 13:42:56

“Chomsky lives in Cambridge, MA. I bet you he has never been to Alabama, Missouri or Louisiana.”

Betcha he has. Betcha he’s spent more time there than you have, and probably more time in some of the areas you’ve visited, but the purpose behind his “experiences” is more than likely different than yours. He is a humanitarian. That may be boring to you, but humanitarians are necessary.

So what if he does live in Cambridge? Don’t you live in New York? Does living in Cambridge make him less qualified to travel internationally than you?

 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 14:00:37

FBSS is right.

And there is PLENTY of documentation on starvation in this country.

Libraries full, as a matter of fact.

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-08-07 16:50:34

Cowards run in the face of Noam Chomsky reality.

 
Comment by ahansen
2011-08-07 23:21:11

LBJ started this program called The (now what was it called… oh yeah, The War on POVERTY to address starving people in the United States of America in the nineteen sixties.

Because Americans were starving, you know?

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2011-08-08 04:34:33

Small family farms… I grew up with chickens, apple pear cherry trees grandma planted corn strawberries tomatoes…all on less then an acre..so we had a nice big yard to play in and most of our neighbors also had their own garden…plus she canned a lot.

And this was in Southern Fairfield county CT 40 miles from NYC…not exactly rural.

So what happened before food stamps?

 
 
Comment by mikeinbend
2011-08-07 12:00:35

Our family gets SNAP food bennies and our single largest payday is from EIC. Beats starving on the street, I guess (which is where you prognosticated was my fate).

We have been a two parent stay at home family. When I am not teaching I am volunteering at a non-profit. But it does not pay the bills to be a parent so I will take benefits if it helps pay for food for the kids.

Too much emphasis is given to selling out rather than parenting, IMO. Being a stay home dad is a resume killer, that is for sure, no matter how you spin it. But how many other kids can say they were raised by stay at home mom AND dad? Thanks, housing bubble.

I could have done better financially if I did not spend so much time with my offspring, but that is a choice I am proud to have made.

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Comment by rms
2011-08-07 16:49:52

“I’m no fan of handouts but I’m no fan of watching grandma starving on the street either.”

I think FDR’s policies have grandma covered. Now LBJ’s plan was wider in scope; think Nike(s) in the ghetto. A full belly wasn’t enough for LBJ, and the Jim Crow laws meant there was little change in the racist nature of the southern states. I was in the deep south in the military, and I never saw poverty like that growing up in California.

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Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 08:09:11

The thing that most “sound money” people seem to forget is that there have ALWAYS been booms and busts, even when we were on the gold standard and even when you used real gold coins.

Let’s say it is 1AD and I own a market. I live in a village that uses only gold coins as currency. I buy stuff from people for 1 gold, then sell it back to them for 2. Traveling around to 100 people negotiating exchanges one-on-one would take all of everyone’s time so they would have no time to actually do their jobs and make more stuff. So, they sell it to me in a single transaction to save them time, then I sell it back to each of them for more when they need it. I am the middleman that takes my cut.

Soon, I have all the gold. Now, no one can buy anything from me. Dang. I can’t keep getting richer…. Hey, I know. I create a bank, deposit my gold. The bank loans my gold to my customers so they can keep buying from me. I deposit my gold in the bank again, and they borrow it again, and give it back to me to deposit again, so they can borrow it again… repeat.

Now, the bank owes me more gold than actually exists. We have leveraged my gold 4-5-6 times.

The only way this leverage can be unwound is if I start paying more to my customers than they need to buy all the stuff I am selling them, so they can afford to pay back their loans, so the bank has my gold to give back to me, so I can pay them more than I’m taking in, so they can pay back more loans…. But, this unwind requires I become poorer… I do not want that.

Or, if I do NOT give them the gold back, then they don’t pay the loans. When I go to the bank to get my gold, they say, sorry, I can’t pay because no one can repay their loans. The bank goes under and I have to write off the 80% of my worth that WAS backed by gold, but didn’t really exist.

Banking exists so the rich can get richer than “all the gold that exists”. Yet, they seem to be unable to understand, that in the end, that is unstable.

Google up “united states recessions”. You will find 7 recessions between 1797 and 1834. Okay, it is just government that can’t handle banking so let’s hand it to the private sector to control the money supply… 22 more recessions between 1836 and the Great Depression in 1929 crash into the GD.

It is banking itself, not the lack of assets backing up money, that is inhearently unstable.

Once the rich have all the money, they loan it to their customers so those customers can keep buying. They don’t want to give that money back to the poor so the poor can pay them back, so it crashes.

Bring it to today.

USA households and businesses have $24T in debt, and then throw another $14T in government debt on top of that. The seed money, or the “gold” in the example, is the $3T on the Federal Reserve’s balance sheet. 38T/3T = 12 1/3rds levereged.

We cut household wages, then gave them access to enough debt to keep them spending. They spent the money, and it ended up in the hands of the rich, who loaned it to them again. They spent it again, and it again ended up in the hands of the rich who again loaned it to them again… repeat for 40+ years since we became a net import nation. Debt has been increasing at 3x the sustainable rate, all of it is the rich loaning it to the poor, who spent it back to the rich, who again loaned it to the poor…. repeat.

Money is not gold. Money is other people’s debt. It has value ONLY if those people that owe it to you, CAN and WILL pay it back.

The rich want paid back all of their money that they have repeatedly loaned to the poor, but they don’t want to give the money to the poor, that the poor would need to pay it back.

We have two choices. 1) We can force the rich to give enouigh money to the poor so the poor can pay their living expenses and still have enough money to pay back debt so the rich can get thier money back. Of course, this would require we tax the money away from the rich, or raise wages of the poor to the point that the businesses of the rich have negative profits. OR 2) We can let the poor default, write off the debt, and the rich lose 90+% of their money as uncollectable.

Either way, the rich can’t really get 12.6x as much “gold” as actually exists.

The only thing I am sure of is that the rich can’t get paid back by continuing to loan the poor money that the poor can’t pay back.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 11:19:40

I think that there was a lot of bartering going on during the year 1 AD. If Old St. Joeseph fixed a wheel on the farmer’s wagon he could get paid in grain or produce. If he fixed a boat he could get fish. Etc.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 18:37:05

But I was not responding to a post about barter. I was responding to a post that a implied monitary system based on assets vs. fiat was more sound. As we get further and further from the time when we were on a gold standard, it seems people fail to remember that boom and bust is nothing new.

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 06:58:32

Hey Mr. Ben, eyes don’t knows exactly why… but this is the main banner ad at the top of yer blog…Hilarious! :-)

Fraud by Biganeh & Bijan Majdlessi

 
Comment by rms
2011-08-07 07:29:58

Well, off to work; looks like a nice day too. Eighty hours this past week, but things will be near dead in two months as the winter weather tightens its grip, so it’s time to hustle.

Comment by rms
2011-08-07 16:59:25

It was 92-degrees today, cloudless and a light breeze. Four liters of water disappeared before 1400-hrs. Now it’s time to slosh down a couple of Rogue - Dead Guy Ale(s) while throwing a football with my son.

 
 
2011-08-07 08:20:06

People here know that I travel a lot.

I’m not a “Four Seasons” kinda traveler (I can afford it!) but I go to the most remote locations with my backpack and my camera equipment. I was in the Philippines most recently.

Best food ever. The stuff American food aspires to without the crappy mega-corp food complex.

I traveled to my friend’s aunt’s remote farm (think: outhouse) in the South of the Philippines. It’s a “dangerous” region - yeah, sure! yank the other one, buddy.

Nobody kidnapped me, and I had a blast running with the kids through wet muddy rice fields.

What’s my point?

Invest in experiences. Not stuff. Experiences.

Comment by michael
2011-08-07 11:59:12

did you mean to say you can’t afford the four seasons or you can afford the four seasons?

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-08-07 12:27:34

I think he was trying to say the he’s more likely to stay at a Hamptons Inn when he travels than stay at a Ritz Carleton (or Four Seasons) Hotel.

 
 
Comment by mikeinbend
2011-08-07 12:58:01

Took my wife and kids to Spain for two months (I could afford it!) But now I cant. Now I take them to a non-profit boys and girls club and I volunteer my time there; its just as fun. Investing in youth.
What are you offering selflessly? Recipes and pictures or being a braggart whilst calling other people stupid?

I went to Bali to surf for two months (I could afford it!) and now I go to the Oregon coast. The experience is still there w/o the airfare.
I don’t travel the world any longer for now; my retired parents with pensions do that.

I invest in experiences with my kids here now that things are a SNAP. (I can afford gobs of cheese now). But is my life or the life of my children any less rich without $$?? I had a job that required 70 hours of work but I would not have been able to see my kids and so I stopped. Got to stay home with my kids for a decade thanks to the bubble. Luckily, cuz I could had to pimp out my time for the almighty $$ and had strangers for kids just like all the other kids out there with working folks. Destined for the gutter am I? I don’t think so….And I know what the next generation looks like; pretty or not I have a chance to have my say with today’s youth.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 19:05:57

“Invest in experiences. Not stuff. Experiences.”

Beautiful advice!

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 08:38:13

Greenspan sees stock market drop after downgrade

Published 11:20 a.m., Sunday, August 7, 2011

WASHINGTON (AP) — Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan says he expects the stock market slide to continue in the wake of a decision by credit rating agency Standard & Poor’s to downgrade the U.S. credit rating.

Appearing Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Greenspan said markets will take time to bottom out and that he expects a negative reaction on Monday to the S&P action.

But Greenspan also says he doesn’t see any risk in investing in the United States and says that S&P’s downgrade won’t change that.

The former Fed chairman says the downgrade “hit a nerve” and is damaging to the “psyche” of the country. But he says he can’t foresee a scenario in which the U.S. will default on its debts.

http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Greenspan-sees-stock-market-drop-after-downgrade-1751976.php#ixzz1UMFeJIcC

Comment by Hard Rain
2011-08-07 08:56:52

Get her in NOW!!!

NEWTON, Iowa (AP) — Michele Bachmann declared Friday “it won’t take that long” for her to start turning the ailing economy around as president as she competed against other GOP presidential rivals to build support ahead of a key GOP straw poll in Iowa next week.

Earlier in the day in Newton, Bachmann told reporters the economy would start to improve almost immediately after she becomes president because she would implement conservative economic policies to slash the nation’s debt, stop tax increases and cut regulations.

“It won’t take that long if we send signals to the marketplace,” she said, standing by an earlier comment that the improvement would begin within the first quarter.

http://news.yahoo.com/bachmann-improving-economy-wont-long-195053090.html

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 14:12:32

Are you serious?!

Michele Bachmann and her family have benefited personally from government aid, an examination of her record and finances shows. A counseling clinic run by her husband has received nearly $30,000 from the state ofMinnesota in the last five years, money that in part came from the federal government. A family farm in Wisconsin, in which the congresswoman is a partner, received nearly $260,000 in federal farm subsidies.

And she has sought to keep federal money flowing to her constituents. After publicly criticizing the Obama administration’s stimulus program, Bachmann requested stimulus funds to support projects in her district. Although she has been a fierce critic of earmarks — calling them “part of the root problem with Washington’s spending addiction” — the congresswoman nonetheless argued recently that transportation projects should not be considered congressional pork.

Comment by Hard Rain
2011-08-07 14:46:13

Are you serious?

No

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Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 17:59:23

PHEW! :lol:

 
 
 
Comment by jane
2011-08-07 16:09:58

She is right. The market does not move on facts, but on animal spirits.

In this situation, we have done everything stimulative that can possibly be done in orgiastic sacrifice to the 1%, so that they, like the gods of yore, might spare us from the wrath of the volcano. Even lemmings are beginning to see that sacrificing virgins to the gods didn’t work. Sorry about the purple prose, bear with me a bit.

From a Sherlock Holmes outlook - and he was no dummy - once everything else has been tried and tested, and doesn’t work, the
thing that is left, no matter how unlikely, represents the truth.

Or the right course of action. Y’all know what I mean.

Just my opinion, of course. But I have long opined that we would do better with a skeptical Kansas farmer at the helm than with the shellacked products of the East Coast intelligentsia. Please remember - no matter what labels they wear, they all came up through the same salons, went to the same schools and summer camps, married one another’s daughters, and memorized the same playbook. All of the diatribe is simply political theater, designed to entertain the masses like the Roman emperors did also in days of yore. ANYTHING they do will enrich them, and rob us.

They are exactly the same. No matter who gets elected, they will kowtow to the same interest - the highest bidder. The theater is only there for window dressing, because we, collectively, are idiots.

Vote out every incumbent, every time, I say! Don’t give anybody enough time to get crusted over with the mold of corruption. Bankrupt the lobbyists.

As I see it, it is the only way the underlying schisms in our society are going to heal.

Comment by butters
2011-08-07 17:05:42

But I have long opined that we would do better with a skeptical Kansas farmer at the helm than with the shellacked products of the East Coast intelligentsia. Please remember - no matter what labels they wear, they all came up through the same salons, went to the same schools and summer camps, married one another’s daughters, and memorized the same playbook. All of the diatribe is simply political theater, designed to entertain the masses like the Roman emperors did also in days of yore. ANYTHING they do will enrich them, and rob us.

So true, every word of it. David Icke once talked about how a prominent university in England divided the students to left and right political camps based on their sitting positions in a large auditorium. On the left you support the labor and on the right you support the conservative or something like that. The saddest thing out of this is not long ago I used to laugh at David Icke……

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Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 08:56:29

The paradox of thrift.

What is best for the individual (like making more than you spend) is not what is best for the economy (because if everyone spends less than they earn, all of the money is quickly drained from the economy).

Turning this from the point fo view of the individual to teh point of view of the owners of the corporations. Let’s say you make a lot of money selling people stuff, but then pay people less eage than you brought in. What do you do with this money? Put it in the bank so that it can be loaned out? To whom is it loaned out? Oh, right. Those very people that you are paying less than they are spending on your goods.

Tomorrow’s profit comes from loaning yesterday’s profit to people that you are paying less in wages than they are spending on your goods.

You can only take in more money than you spend, if someone else is spending more than you take in, and this is only possible if you loan them your profits so they can keep spending.

And all the time that you are making money off the people that you are loaning your money to, you stand on a pedistal and complain about all those people that are spending more than they make…. even though that is a necessary prerequisite to you making more than you spend.

YOU CAN NOT MAKE MORE THAN YOU SPEND UNLESS SOMEONE IS SPENDING MORE THAN THEY MAKE BECASUE YOU ARE LOANING THEM YOUR SAVINGS. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

Those people can’t pay you back, unless you start spending more than you make and they start making more than they spend… DOUBLE PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Comment by WT Economist
2011-08-07 09:09:03

You are speaking of loaning people money they can spend on consumption.

Alternatives are loaning money that is spent on infrastructure, plant and equipment that is productive. We haven’t done much of that kind of investment in this country lately. But where we have, in information technology, look at the result.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 10:18:23

But the money exists becasue someone spent more than they made by borrowing it into existance. It has value because of the assumption that at some point in the future the person will make more than they spend and pay back the debt.

For it to be possible to make more than they spend in the future, the person that loaned the money must first spend more than they make so that the money can get back to the person that borrowed it. If the rich does not spend, then the borrower can not make, and can’t pay back.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 11:53:20

I was explaining to my kids last night over dinner that our economic system (I hesistate to call it Capitalism) requires never ending growth to be viable because it is all based on ever expanding debt.

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Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-08-07 12:29:07

Did they wake up with nightmares in the middle of the night?

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-08-07 14:02:35

No, but I did!

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 19:04:21

“…(because if everyone spends less than they earn, all of the money is quickly drained from the economy)…”

This has to be one of the stupidest ideas ever floated. How did economies ever survive before fiat money was created?

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 20:20:16

Barter, subsistence farming, plunder, extortion, mining, and slavery.

 
 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 09:45:07

I am simply amazed by how many people do not have a clue what money is.

Your money is someone elses debt. You could not have made your money, had someone else not borrowed it into existance then spent it. You can only make more than you spend if there is someone that is spending more than they make. What do you do with all that money that you make? You loan it to people that spend more than they make so that you can again make more than you spend.

The rich love to complain about all the idots that spend more than they make, all the time refusing to understand that is a necessary prerequisite to you making more than you spend.

The rich then complain if we suggest that they spend more than they make, even though that is a necessary prerequisite to the poor being able to pay back all the money they owe the rich.

Poor getting deeper in debt is not a random coicidence to the rich getting richer. It is a necessary prerequisite.

For 30 years business and consumer debt has been increasing at 3x the sustainable rate. Meanwhile, corporations, especially those that deal with the generation and servicing of debt have been making insane profits.

Oh, if only we had those record profits without all that debt… think how great the country would be. Yeah, and can I have an invisable pink unicorn too?

The profits were not made in a vacuume. The profits were only possible, and in fact were a direct result of, that unsustainable rate of debt growth.

Now, the rich do not want to get poorer. Well, too bad. The debt must go away, and that can only heppen if the rich get poorer. Either we tax the money away from the rich and give it to the poor so that the poor can pay back thier debts OR we force the rich to pay more in wages than they are taking in as revenue so the poor have money to pay back their debt OR we do neither of the above and the poor default on their debts and the rich just write off the debt as uncollectable.

Any way it happens, the debt can not go away without the rich getting poorer, for exactly the same reason that the rich could not have gotten rich in the first place had the poor not been getting further in debt.

Anyone that disagrees with me, simply is not willing to accept the reality that your money was created when someone else borrowed it into existance and then spent it into the economy.

Comment by GH
2011-08-07 10:08:39

I believe you will find the assumption that rich people are the cause of poor people is not true. Attempts have been made elsewhere at various times to redistribute all the wealth and the result is always the same. The poor remain poor and the previously rich are poor too.

Sure we could dismantle Microsoft and give Bill Gates wealth to everyone in the world. I might buy a coffee at Starbucks with my share of the wealth others in third world countries might eat for a month.

The fact is that in order for prosperity to exist we need vibrant small business. Not big multinational corporations. We need attainable wealth and opportunity - not handouts.

As far as the debt goes, there is not enough money in the universe to repay but a small fraction of it. I wonder if that all gets nationalized or we allow the worlds banks and pensions to eat it?

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 10:30:39

You seem to be confusing wealth with money. Wealth is stuff and money is other peoples’ debt.

And, I am not suggesting that we give people money without them having to work for it. I am suggesting that we create circumstances where they can work and make more money than they spend. Unfortuantly, this situation can only exist if we 1) just make more money inflating away the purchaing power of that money or 2) create a circumstance where those with the money are forced to spend more than they earn.

Comment by GH
2011-08-07 12:00:49

I think you will find that the rich of the world do not have nearly as much as you would think. Sure we could confiscate it or tax it or whatever method, but shared out there is not nearly enough to repay all the debts. On that we are in total agreement.

I suspect we need to differentiate income types when it comes to taxes. Earned income through wage, salary, profession or business revenue should be taxed at a much lower rate than unearned income where the money is obtained through appreciation, investment revenue etc.

At any rate given current circumstances it appears we need to streamline the bankruptcy process to handle the throughput, because there simply is not enough currency to handle but a small fraction of the debt in existence (even if you tax the daylights out of the rich).

I cannot see a politically palatable solution to our current problems so I suspect they will take care of themselves in a most unpleasant manner…

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Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 19:03:45

By definition, there HAS to be enough money to repay all of the debts. When a debt is taken on, the exact same amount of money is created. When debt defaults, the money goes away.

There is no money without debt, and there is not debt without equal and opposites offsetting money.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2011-08-07 11:41:23

Agree with your last 2 posts Darrell.
I believe a combo of all your suggestions is the way out of this mess .

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 11:54:29

45,000 Verizon workers go on strike over contract

By CRISTIAN SALAZAR, Sunday, August 7, 12:56 AM

NEW YORK — Tens of thousands of unionized Verizon Communications Inc. workers from Massachusetts to Washington, D.C., went on strike early Sunday after they failed to agree on a new labor contract with the telecommunications company.

Mark C. Reed, Verizon’s executive vice president of human resources, called the outcome of the unions’ actions “regrettable” for customers and employees.

The contract that expired at midnight Saturday covers 45,000 workers, including 10,000 represented by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, who serve as telephone and repair technicians, customer service representatives, operators and more.

“Even at the 11th hour, as contracts were set to expire, Verizon continued to seek to strip away 50 years of collective bargaining gains for middle class workers and their families,” CWA said in a statement Sunday.

Verizon, the nation’s largest wireless carrier, has 196,000 workers; 135,000 are non-union.

At the center of the contract dispute are the costs of health care, pensions and work rules.

The CWA said the concessions are unjustified and harsh, given that Verizon is highly profitable — the company’s revenue rose 2.8 percent to $27.5 billion in the second quarter. Its growth was largely attributed to its wireless business.

But Verizon said its wireline business has been in decline for more than a decade, and that it is asking for changes in the contract to strengthen the unit. The company said union employees contribute nothing to their health care premiums.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/45000-verizon-workers-go-on-strike-over-contract/2011/08/07/gIQA17kjzI_story.html - -

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 14:06:54

“The company said union employees contribute nothing to their health care premiums.”</I.,

Not exactly a “benefit” if you have to pay for it, is it? :lol:

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 11:59:40

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/alexis_wiley/agents-raid-wrong-house-in-sterling-heights-20110730-rs

Fourth Ammendment trampled on yet again in the War on Drugs. Yet most of the sheeple will continue to ignore such violations of their Constitutional rights until it happens to them or someone they care about.

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 14:16:57

Rights? What rights?

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 12:22:41

I never got a chance to chum for sharks, so I`ll just post this instead.

EDITORIAL: Obama’s downgraded America
S&P tells it like it is: the U.S. is out of money

By THE WASHINGTON TIMES
6:53 p.m., Saturday, August 6, 2011

The Obama administration has made history by presiding over the first-ever downgrade in the U.S. credit rating. President Obama has outdone all his predecessors in wrecking America’s good name. His answer to this problem: Spend even more.

Raising the debt ceiling was sold as a way of guaranteeing the U.S. credit rating. It had the opposite effect, which makes sense to anyone who understands credit. Take a family with a median household income around $50,000. If they spend $85,000 a year and have debt at $300,000 and growing, it’d be foolish to let them borrow more because they don’t have the income to pay it back. Raising the debt ceiling ignored this reality. Then, the Obama administration immediately demonstrated its utter lack of creditworthiness by blowing 60 percent of the initial $400 billion increase in one day, the largest single-day accumulation of debt in U.S. history.

The White House blames the George W. Bush administration for every economic woe, but the numbers speak for themselves. In 2008, the federal budget deficit was around 3 percent of gross domestic product. In 2011, it’s around 11 percent. Total federal debt was $10.7 trillion at the end of 2008 and is currently $14.6 trillion. Debt as a percentage of GDP was a painful 69 percent at the end of the Bush years, but Mr. Obama is pushing it over 100 percent, another disgraceful historic milestone. A record 45.8 million are on food stamps, and the percentage of working-aged Americans who have jobs is the lowest in three decades. According to Gallup’s daily tracking poll, in late January, 44 percent of Americans felt the economy was getting better, and 52 percent thought it was worsening. Now only 17 percent have a positive view; 77 percent understand our economy is nosediving.

Mr. Obama is blithely passing the buck. At a Wednesday fundraiser, he refused to own up to his responsibility for the economic calamity America is facing, saying “because we were inheriting so many challenges, we’re not even halfway there yet. When I said, ‘change we can believe in,’ I didn’t say ‘change we can believe in tomorrow.’ ” If the nation continues on this disastrous course Mr. Obama has set, there will be no tomorrow.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/6/obamas-downgraded-america/ - -

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-08-07 14:13:07

“…..in 2008,the Federal Budget deficit was about 3% of GDP…..”

As they say, figures don’t lie, but liars figure.

Lets turn on the Wayback Machine……and remember this “3%” number was:

-Before the worldwide bankster bailout.

-Before unemployment jumped to a defacto 16%

- Before the economy tanked, increasing government expenditures, while the tax base was getting smaller.

All of these factors were in motion BEFORE Obama was even elected, much less too office.

 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 18:57:51

Would our debt rating be any better if we were still in the full collapse mode that Bush left us in?

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 12:43:35

Geithner says he will stay at Treasury

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER The Associated Press
Posted: 2:36 p.m. Sunday, Aug. 7, 2011

WASHINGTON — Timothy Geithner has told President Barack Obama that he will remain on the job as Treasury secretary.

The Treasury Department released a statement Sunday saying Geithner had informed the president of his decision to remain in the administration.

Geithner is the only remaining top official on Obama’s original economics team.

Comment by BlueStar
2011-08-07 22:27:45

When it happens, who will it be? I would expect it to come from another FED bank.

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-08-07 15:52:20

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8687445/Bonfire-of-the-jobless-bankers.html

Thousands of jobless bankers face bleak employment prospects in economies looted into husks by their former employers. Ben, can we organize some kind of charity event for them? Maybe Sally Struthers can pull our heartstrings a bit.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 15:58:03

By Rita Nazareth and Nikolaj Gammeltoft - Aug 7, 2011 / Bloomberg

The U.S. merits a “quadruple A” rating, Buffett, 80, said Aug. 6

Oil sank 3.2 percent to $84.11 a barrel

BWAHAHAHicHAHAHicHAHAHAHAHicHAHAHic* (DennisN™)

“fueled concern$”…

You betcha, concern$ for all the oil in $torage! $torage! $torage! :-)

No ‘Forced Selling’ at BlackRock:

BlackRock Inc., the world’s largest asset manager, issued a statement saying it has been preparing for the downgrade for a month and will not need to do any “forced selling of securities.”

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 16:15:13

“TrueGridLok$editionist’s™” wee-peeParty tea toadlers + China non-heroin Communist Gov’t = “TrueGetlil’Opie™”… while pissing down American’s backs!

BWAHAHAHicHAHAHicHAHAHAHAHicHAHAHic* (DennisN™) :-)

China demands U.S. ‘live within its means’:
The largest foreign holder of U.S. treasuries responds to the S&P downgrading by calling for decreases in U.S. military outlays and social spending.

Reporting from Beijing—
By David Pierson / Los Angeles Times Staff Writer / August 6, 2011

China called on the United States to “cure its addiction to debts” and “learn to live within its means” in a searing commentary published Saturday by the official New China News Agency in response to Standard & Poor’s historic downgrading of the U.S. government’s credit rating a day earlier.

“A second recession would be a nightmare for China,” Jin said.

Massive credit expansion since 2008 has led to the country’s highest rate of inflation in three years — fueling a national property bubble and potentially sowing the seeds of social instability.

China’s central bank must jettison trillions of incoming foreign exchange to ensure the yuan remains low. For the most part, U.S. treasuries represent the only destination large enough to accommodate China’s holdings.

Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 23:45:00

Living within our means is a surefire path to a second recession. Yellow man speaks with forked tongue. ;)

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-08-07 16:38:16

Seems Joe-the-plumber & Standard Poor Opinion$ $haker-quaker$ have a few things in common:

False Fear! & the in ability to put a cork in it. ;-)

“True$erialEnabler$$editionist’s™”

S&P’s ‘Credibility and Integrity’ Questioned: Treasury
International Business Times / August 7, 2011

S&P’s document that explained its downgrade stated that it “reflects our opinion

Once S&P realized the mistake, Bellows said it changed its economic justification to political ones. :-)

Bellows’ argument is that S&P first based its justification for the downgrade primarily on the economic grounds that the debt ceiling deal (Budget Control Act of 2011) failed to reduce debt to a sustainable level relative to the GDP.

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However, S&P’s debt-to-GDP projections was based on a mathematical error that threw off their figures by $2 trillion, or eight percentage points of the projected GDP of 2021.

S&P Criticism

In the aftermath of the global financial debt crisis, S&P and other major ratings agencies were heavily criticized for giving AAA ratings for collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) that went on to suffer heavy losses.

Now, it is being criticized by the U.S. government for cutting the U.S. ratings even though “millions of investors around the globe…assess [the U.S.] creditworthiness every minute of every day, and their collective judgment is that the U.S. has the means and political will to make good on its obligations.”

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-08-07 16:44:33

Obama adviser blames tea party for downgrade
AP – 7 hrs ago

..WASHINGTON (AP) — A top political adviser to President Barack Obama is blaming the downgrade of the U.S. credit rating on tea party Republicans, whom he says were unwilling to compromise on how to reduce the federal debt.

Obama campaign strategist David Axelrod tells CBS’ “Face the Nation” on Sunday that the decision by the Standard & Poor’s credit agency to downgrade the U.S. from AAA to AA+ for the first time was strongly influenced by weeks of standoff between Democrats and Republicans over the debt.

Axelrod calls the action, in his words, “a tea party downgrade” and says it’s clearly on the backs of lawmakers who were willing to see the country default to get their way.

Axelrod also criticized GOP presidential candidates for not speaking up in favor of compromise.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-adviser-blames-tea-party-downgrade-163131453.html - -

Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 18:44:40

The post-debt ceiling compromise blame/spin game will easily last through November 2012.

Kerry calls lower credit rating a ‘Tea Party downgrade’
08/07/2011 2:46 PM
By Theo Emery, Globe Staff

WASHINGTON — Senator John F. Kerry of Massachusetts called Friday’s lowering of the US credit rating a “Tea Party downgrade,” as finger-pointing continued over the decision by a top credit rating agency.

“This is the Tea Party downgrade because a minority of people in the House of Representatives countered even the will of many Republicans in the United States Senate who were prepared to do a bigger deal,” Kerry said today on NBC’s “Meet the Press.’’

John McCain, who followed Kerry on the program, defended Tea Party conservatives, saying they were fulfilling the promises they made when they ran for Congress last fall.

“For them to then agree to tax increases and spending increases was obviously a repudiation of the mandate they felt they had from last November,” the Arizona Republican said.

 
 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-08-07 16:56:08

Why? Because……
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Realtors Are Liars®

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 17:19:26

America’s economy
Time for a double dip?
A lousy debt deal, rising fears of a recession, the danger of longer-term stagnation: America’s outlook is grim

Aug 6th 2011 | from the print edition

THIS ought to have been a good week for the American economy. The country’s leaders at last ended a ludicrously irresponsible bout of fiscal brinkmanship, removing the threat of global financial Armageddon by agreeing to raise the federal debt ceiling. Yet far from heaving a sigh of relief, investors are nervous. Stockmarkets around the world have tumbled (see article). On August 2nd, the day the debt deal was signed, the S&P 500 index saw its biggest one-day fall in over a year, and yields on ten-year Treasury bonds dropped to 2.6%, their lowest level in nine months, as investors sought safety.

It is not all to do with America: the euro zone is a mess (see article) and manufacturing everywhere seems to be slowing. But America’s prospects have suddenly darkened. Statistical revisions and some grim new figures have revealed a weaker-than-assumed recovery that has all but ground to a halt. Once stalled, an economy can easily tip back into recession, particularly if it is hit by a new shock—as America’s is about to be, thanks to a hefty dose of fiscal tightening made worse by the debt deal. The odds of a double dip over the coming year are uncomfortably high, perhaps as high as 50%.

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-08-07 17:21:05

I don’t know if you all caught it today so it should be noted that the GOP party platform now includes a plan to rework every single mortgage in the US to “keep people in their homes”. John McCain announced this today on Meet The Press.

Comment by Bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-08-07 18:33:38

Ron Paul should convert to Libertarian in that case.

I haven’t read the RP platform, but I am willing to bet that I disagree with more than 50% of it. It’s probably full of ways to cram religion down our throats. My throat is atheist. If I could, I would barf back the crappola in their faces.

John McShame pushed for $100 billion in rescues for those who trapped themselves into being mortgage slaves in his 2008 presidential campaign.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 19:00:45

The GOP leadership should be ashamed of themselves for stealing from the Obama administration.

Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-08-07 19:43:28

I don’t really give a flip who champions the corrupt cause. It’s corrupt, it’s evil and they are my enemy. And yours.

 
 
Comment by rms
2011-08-07 21:21:29

“I don’t know if you all caught it today so it should be noted that the GOP party platform now includes a plan to rework every single mortgage in the US to “keep people in their homes”. John McCain announced this today on Meet The Press.”

Oh sure, the packaging says it’s to help American families, but underneath it’s nothing more than another bailout for the neo-con banking industry. John McCain, loser!

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 17:35:57

“Paradox of Thrift”

Here is some Paradox of Thrift for you all:

My siblings, parents, a few extended family members and I just enjoyed a nice family reunion in the Midwest. My family members have positive net worths, due to keeping incomes and spending in balance over the years. While most of America is digging themselves out of a hole of debt into which they dug themselves, we are able to stimulate the economy by making purchases without going into hock or making exorbitant, extortionary interest payments to the banksters.

What on Gawd’s earth was Keynes talking about, anyway?

Comment by ecofeco
2011-08-07 18:03:24

While most of America is digging themselves out of a hole of debt into which they dug themselves,…

Wrong right there.

Again, blame the victims. It’s the American way.

MANY people did dig themselves into that hole. MOST did not but got clobbered anyway

Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 18:36:57

“MANY … / … MOST”

I guess you have better data on that breakdown than I do. All I know is what I have learned by living in the largest U.S. state by population for fifteen years. When I first came here, I took the impression that everyone else here must have been far wealthier than my family, as they all seemed to live in larger homes, drive fancier cars, and take cooler vacations. By contrast, we have always struggled to some degree to afford the high cost of living out here; perhaps that is due to our (my) tendency to take a share savings off the top of our incomes, to always keep at least six months living expenses somewhere we can access them if needs be, and to generally stay out of debt and to live below our means. We have been clobbered along with everyone else, but since we were not in a deep hole to start with, the pain has not been as bad as it could have been.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 18:50:34

Good for you.

If everyone did what you did, all the money would drain out of the economy very quickly and there would be no economy.

You could not have made any money, had someone not first borrowed it into existance.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 21:31:49

See below for why I think this is pure hogwash. But it is a mighty handy justification for running the printing press on high blast, in order to siphon fixed-income retirees’ life savings into the banksters’ coffers.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 18:45:47

The paradox of thrift is not that it is better for you to spend less than you make. The paradox of thrift is that not EVERYONE can spend less than they make.

If any of their net worth is money, such as bank deposits, bonds, currency, money market, etc, then they were only able to get that money because someone else borrowed it into existance.

If someone was not willing to spend more than they make, then you would not be able to make more than you spend.

The people that borrowed the money into existance can only pay it back if someone with money spends more than they make.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-08-07 20:59:31

Careful, Darrell. If you explain how the economy works too clearly, people won’t be able to moralize about it while patting themselves on the back.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 21:29:45

“The paradox of thrift is that not EVERYONE can spend less than they make.”

What does ‘make’ mean here? What does ’spend’ mean? If a farmer grows his own food and eats 90% of it, saving 10% as seed for next year, wouldn’t he be ’spending’ only 90% of his income? If everyone in the economy were a farmer doing likewise, wouldn’t EVERYONE be spending less than they ‘made’?

I’m sorry; perhaps whatever Keynes said about the Paradox of Thrift made sense, but the above interpretation is clearly hogwash.

 
 
 
Comment by liz pendens
2011-08-07 18:13:11

“They’ve handled themselves very poorly. And they’ve shown a stunning lack of knowledge about the basic U.S. fiscal budget math,” Geithner said in his first public comments about the credit rating decision.

-Says a guy who claims he was completly symied by the complexities of Turbo-Tax.

Comment by 45north
2011-08-07 20:04:40

pretty funny

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 18:26:34

You can all relax now. The current wave of global financial panic is all contained by G-7 central bank collusion.

P.S. This might be a good time to add to your gold holdings and other inflation hedges. :-)

Aug. 7, 2011, 9:18 p.m. EDT
G-7 says it’s ready to stem market tension
By Greg Robb

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The Group of Seven leading economies said Sunday that it was ready to respond as needed to market tensions over concerns the U.S. and Europe cannot handle debt burdens they took on to ease the global financial crisis. “We are committed to taking coordinated action where needed, to ensuring liquidity, and to supporting financial market functioning, financial stability and economic growth,” the statement from the finance ministers and central bankers of the seven leading industrial economies said.

 
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-08-07 18:43:48

Hugh Carey dies.

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20110807/US.Obit.Carey/

“The governor had inherited the worst economic climate since the Great Depression. New York City, the nation’s Wall Street-powered economic engine, was nearing bankruptcy. Famously declaring the “days of wine and roses are over,” the well-to-do son of an entrepreneur rose to the challenge, forced major changes in the way New York governed and financed itself, and stared down a Republican president to keep New York City from insolvency.

The liberal Democrat who reversed the tax-and-spend excesses of his Republican predecessor to keep the city and state afloat died Sunday at his summer home on Shelter Island. He was 92.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 19:15:34

Reasonable people are beginning to raise serious questions about the mortgage interest deduction (aka “Welfare for the Wealthiest“).

The stimulus we need
Cut deductions, reduce tax rates
August 7, 2011

This should be the moment — a reprise of 1986 — when Democrats and Republicans join forces to pass ambitious tax reform.

As is, the federal government collects more than $1 trillion a year in income taxes — and simultaneously gives taxpayers roughly the same amount in “tax expenditures.” That’s econospeak for tax deductions, credits, loopholes, exclusions — all the ways in which the tax code creates incentives and rewards for politically favored subsets of taxpayers. Conservative Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma has a word for all this: “Tax subsidies,” he says, “are socialism.”

The most sacrosanct of these subsidies, the deduction for home mortgage interest, arguably creates the greatest distortions. Not that there’s anything wrong with the government aggressively encouraging people to buy too much house and incur too much debt — is there? We tried to explain other failings of this deduction in a March 23 editorial:

If you rent, you get nothing. If you have reasons not to itemize deductions, you get nothing. If you pay off your mortgage to live debt-free, you get nothing. Borrow a fortune for a McMansion, however, and the Internal Revenue Service provides a big discount, at the expense of every other taxpayer. About three-fourths of the benefit from the mortgage-interest deduction goes to the 14 percent of tax filers reporting six-figure incomes. Almost one-third of the subsidy goes to the population reporting incomes of $200,000 or more.

Comment by Darrell_in_PHX
2011-08-07 21:58:35

If you are a renter, the landlord is probably taking the deduction. This can make him cash-flow posiive at a lower rent. If rents are competative based on costs, then this should brive down rent costs.

But, I do agree that we should not be encouraging people to go into debt just to save on taxes….

Except….

Well, the rich can’t get more money unless someone first borrows it into existance.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 21:37:19

Did you ever argue with the cop who issued you a speeding ticket? Not really a great idea, IMHO…

MARKETS
AUGUST 8, 2011

Markets Brace for Downgrade’s Toll
Stocks Slide in Early Asian Trading; White House Reaches Out to Investors as S&P Defends Its Move Against Criticism
BY TOM LAURICELLA, MATT PHILLIPS AND SERENA NG

The first-ever credit downgrade of the U.S. left Wall Street and Washington struggling to come to grips with a new world order.

With the U.S. stripped by Standard & Poor’s of its triple-A credit rating, big banks brought in people to staff trading desks over the weekend, and Obama administration officials put a full-court press on skittish investors. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner—who agreed to stay through the 2012 election—told NBC News that “S&P has shown really terrible judgment.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-08-07 21:39:40

It doesn’t really seem there is any easy way out for the Fed.

HEARD ON THE STREET
AUGUST 6, 2011

Fed Could Trip Up Bond Bulls
By DAVID REILLY

Friday’s better-than-expected jobs figure gave some relief. But with markets still on edge, many stock investors continue to pray the Federal Reserve eventually will ride to their rescue.

The same can’t be said for investors who in recent days piled into U.S. Treasurys. Although the Fed is expected to stand pat for now, any indication it is preparing to come off the sidelines could lead to a reversal for longer-dated government bonds.

Treasury yields steadied on the back of the jobs report, but are still exceptionally low. And the speed of their recent fall has been stunning. The yield on the 10-year Treasury has dropped to about 2.48% from 3% in less than two weeks, while the 30-year bond yield has dropped to about 3.74% from 4.32%.

From that level, yields could rebound fast. They did during both of the Fed’s previous bond-buying bouts. For example, the yield on the 10-year Treasury sank in October 2010 to around 2.4%, just before the Fed at its November meeting confirmed it would buy $600 billion in Treasurys. The yield quickly backed up, reaching a peak of 3.7% in February. A similar pattern played out in early 2009, when the Fed began its first round of purchases, which mostly involved buying government-backed mortgage bonds.

The yield spikes were the opposite of what the Fed ostensibly wanted, that is to lower long-run rates. But the rise in yields reflected hope that quantitative easing would stimulate economic growth, or push investors into riskier assets. It also raised concerns among some investors that the Fed could unleash inflation. Should the Fed again intervene, the reaction may be no different.

Of course, the Fed may decide extraordinary action isn’t warranted or wise, given its balance sheet has already ballooned to $2.8 trillion. While the Fed meets next week, it is unlikely to immediately take such drastic, and politically sensitive, action without additional data showing the economy is in more than a soft patch. Some regional Fed presidents have indicated in recent speeches, for example, that they believe factors that caused first-half growth to disappoint will prove transitory.

The longer the Fed holds off, the more markets could become convinced of a double-dip for the economy and push yields lower. In that case, yields may have further to fall. After all, the yield on the 30-year bond hit 2.55% in December 2008, while the 10-year note reached a low of 2.12% in the same month.

 
Comment by cactus
2011-08-07 21:54:35

Futures shows the market down 200 plus at the opening

Is the stock market forecasting a Double Dip ?

Probably not a good time to but overpriced RE in CA

 
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