September 10, 2011

Waking Up From A Lovely Dream

From Realtor.org, November 2001. “By David Lereah. Before Sept. 11, housing was the only major sector of the economy standing tall, which was the primary reason the U.S. economy didn’t succumb to recession. However, the notion that the housing sector can continue to shoulder the burden of keeping an ailing economy afloat now appears unrealistic. In fact, as we continue to assess the residual economic damage from the attacks—massive layoffs, the crippling of key industries such as air travel, and a rapid deterioration of equity values, to name a few—it appears increasingly likely that the housing sector may also experience the sluggishness that it had adroitly avoided for so long.”

“The economy is in recession, and our financial system is under a great deal of pressure and scrutiny. The Federal Reserve Board is expected to provide monetary accommodation for financial markets by lowering short-term interest rates. The shift in priorities creates a cloudier picture for real estate practitioners looking toward the future. The operating environment may be somewhat different from that of just a month ago.”

“A 5 percent to 10 percent drop-off is likely for the remainder of this year. But compared with the rest of the economy, the housing sector continues to stand tall. Even with a slowing of activity, existing home sales for 2001 are still expected to post the second best level ever.”

September 9, 2006. “The Times Union from New York. ‘The expansion that began in November 1991, when mortgage rates fell into single digits, became a boom following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, when trillions of dollars left the stock market looking for a safe haven in real estate, said David Lereah, chief economist at the National Association of Realtors.”

September 11, 2006. “The Street.com. ‘Could there have been a U.S. housing boom without the events of 9/11? It’s a matter of much debate. Most experts agree that the U.S. housing boom was caused by a confluence of factors set in motion in 2001, including very low mortgage rates and a newfound desire for tangible assets like real estate.”

“Prior to the attacks, the U.S. housing market was floundering with the rest of the economy. It’s hard to imagine a time when housing wasn’t a dominant topic on Americans’ minds. But in 2000 and early 2001, housing sales were flat and residential spending was slow. In summer 2001, the Fed had already cut short-term rates from 6.5% at the beginning of the year to 3%. Sales did not immediately boom, though. Five weeks after the attacks, Jonathan Miller, head of New York City real estate appraisal firm Miller Samuel, thought about changing careers because the market was so slow. But near the end of 2001, Miller began noticing some of the beginnings of the boom.”

“Around this time, Miller witnessed a five-way bidding war for a one-bedroom apartment in a non-doorman building in the East 50s, an unusual phenomenon, since this was not a luxury property but a fairly generic one. This trend began to repeat itself, and bidding wars became the norm in New York City and areas of California in late 2001.”

“By February 2002, the National Association of Realtors was reporting that January’s existing home-sales data had hit a record monthly high. By April 2002, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan was already addressing the issue of a possible bubble forming in real estate prices.”

The New York Observer. “One winter evening in 2006, host Martin Bashir’s voice intoned over the opening of Nightline: ‘Meet the brash, young real estate assassin, selling lavish dream apartments to clients with money to burn.’ The TV screen bled to an earnest-looking Michael Shvo. ‘When you see a photo of the New York skyline,’ the 32-year-old informed us, ‘these are buildings I made happen.’”

“And what made Mr. Shvo happen? The New York condo boom, in no small part a product of 9/11. ‘What happened was that it created this unnatural affordability for housing,’ said Jonathan Miller, C.E.O. of New York appraisal firm Miller Samuel. ‘If we did not have 9/11, we would have probably gone into an expanding recession; and the Fed would have probably lowered rates to respond to the recession. But I think the symbolism of getting the economy back on its feet led them to keep rates at 0 for too long.’”

The St. Louis Post Dispatch. “The expansion of Scott Air Force Base, home of the U.S. Transportation Command, represents among the most clear-cut legacies of 9/11 on St. Louis. Many of the lingering effects, here and nationally, remain hard to pin down. Would the Federal Reserve have kept interest rates as low as it did for as long as it did? If not, would we have had a housing price bubble and the Great Recession? Would so many St. Louis homeowners be facing foreclosure now?”

“Such questions have no simple answers. The attacks set huge forces in motion, but many other factors swayed the economy over a decade. Taken alone, the 9/11 loss of people and property was an economic speed bump. The nation was already in a mild recession when the planes struck. The shock slowed sales and frightened travelers initially, but the effect wore off over a few months.”

“‘The impact was certainly far less than our recent Great Recession,’ says Jack Strauss, a St. Louis University economist who studies our region.”

The Record. “It’s 10 years and counting since America suffered a major terrorist attack. Osama bin Laden is dead. A crystal tower that will be the nation’s tallest building is rising at Ground Zero. So why aren’t Americans celebrating more? Why do these victories seem, in some ways, hollow? And why is everyone so testy?”

“Ten years ago, America was coming off the longest and most-lucrative economic expansion in its history. Real wages were rising. Unemployment was 5 percent. Oil sold around $30 a barrel, and the national debt was $5.8 trillion. Today, unemployment is at 9.1 percent and approaching 50 percent for some segments of the black community. Median household wages have actually decreased over the past decade. Oil topped $110 earlier this year.”

“More than one in three U.S. homes sold in the second quarter — one in seven in New Jersey — is now owned by a bank or is in some stage of foreclosure. By some estimates, the housing collapse sucked up $6 trillion in wealth. The national debt, meanwhile, is at $14.6 trillion and climbing.”

“‘I’m afraid to say there appears to be a new normal out there,’” said James Hughes, head of the Bloustein School of Economics at Rutgers. ‘The great American job-producing machine has faltered. We entered the new millennium with great optimism. Is anyone optimistic now?’”

The hamilton Spectator. “In the photograph, the one that hangs on the wall of Mark Standish’s office in lower Manhattan, the co-CEO of RBC Capital Markets Corp. is seen walking away from downtown, across the Brooklyn Bridge. Resolute. Standish, in the company of coworkers, evacuated to RBCCM’s backup facility that September morning, the morning that broke bright blue until Osama bin Laden shook the ‘throne of America’ and ‘hit hard the American economy at its heart and at its core.’

“It wasn’t true. Nor was it true, as then president George Bush would proclaim in a budget speech, that the terrorist attacks pushed America over the economic brink. Nor was it true that the financial district would be abandoned, the evidence to the contrary presenting itself in RBCCM’s move to larger downtown premises at 3 World Financial Center, just to the west of Ground Zero, a perch that gives Standish command over a 72,000-square-foot trading floor, a staff that has grown close to fivefold, and a daily view of all that did not come true.”

“‘I could have guessed at a lot of different things,’ he reflects, noting the arrival of new condominiums and the conversion of older commercial buildings to residential in a part of town where the sidewalks traditionally rolled up at 9. ‘But I would not have guessed that the financial district, downtown Manhattan, would be a phenomenal place to live 10 years ago . . . I would have said forget it.’”

“It takes an awfully long time to truly see what there is to see. Only last month did the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis release its revised GDP data for 2001. ‘These data are the ones that will be likely to enter history,’ says economist Gail Makinen, who penned a one-year economic retrospective for Congress during his tenure as a co-ordinator for the Congressional Research Service. Only now do we learn that what was reported to be U.S. GDP growth of 1.3 per cent in the first quarter of 2001 was, in fact, a contraction of 1.3 per cent. As Makinen notes dryly, a change of 2.6 per cent ‘is a pretty large revision.’”

“‘The United States economy was struggling to find a footing after the tech bubble collapsed,’ says Avery Shenfeld, chief economist for CIBC World Markets Inc. ‘9/11 didn’t cause a recession. It did cause a major disruption in economic data over a very short period of time.’”

“Writing in The New York Times two days before the terrorist attacks, James Grant examined the weak economy and the multi-trillion-dollar drop in stock values that had been pegged to shares in companies that, as Grant wrote, had no visible means of support. ‘Were investors out of their minds?’ was the question he posed, one that students of fantasy stock inflation and historic bubbles didn’t need answering. The NASDAQ, which poked above 5,000 in March 2000, closed on Sept. 10, 2001 at 1,695. Grant called the ’90s boom ‘the gaudiest on record.’ The unprecedented, decade-long expansionary cycle enjoyed in the U.S. had already come to an end.”

“Federal Reserve Board chair Alan Greenspan spent the waning days of August 2001 at a Reserve Board getaway in Jackson Hole, Wy. A series of interest rate cuts were already in play, cuts that would make it ‘easier for people to borrow and spend,’ Greenspan later trumpeted. The rate-cutting strategy became more aggressive post 9/11. The Reserve Board chair was fixated: broad home ownership was the goal, and ‘wealth,’ and thus consumer spending, would thenceforth be measured not by household income but by inflated household asset valuation.”

“It was a phantom prosperity, as was painfully learned. In his 2007 biography, Greenspan too politely acknowledged the role that the ‘loosening’ of mortgage credit terms for subprime borrowers played in heightening financial risk.”

“‘9/11 to me was a very significant social event,’ says Mark Standish. ‘In hindsight, it was not a significant financial event.’ Standish grows introspective. Of course the world has changed. ‘The last 10 years have really been America waking up from essentially a dream,’ he says, ‘a lovely dream.’”




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68 Comments »

Comment by CA renter
2011-09-10 04:57:39

This is a great collection of articles, Ben.

It shows that even some of the “experts” back in 2001 knew that things should have gone down from there. Many of us have been saying for years that “the recession” began in 2000/2001, and never really ended. It might have ended then if they would have allowed things to fall further (and we would have had far less damage than what will be caused by the unwinding of the credit bubble). Instead, we embarked on blowing the largest credit/debt bubble in history.

Bad move.

Comment by Ben Jones
2011-09-10 06:39:49

There’s a lot to learn by reviewing:

‘Before Sept. 11, housing was the only major sector of the economy standing tall, which was the primary reason the U.S. economy didn’t succumb to recession.’

My housing bubble moment was in 1998, in Austin TX, when I found out my landlord was paying twice as much of the rental as I was paying him. I had already noticed all the construction in Central Texas, but it was only then I started thinking about the role of speculation.

There were a lot of things that feed into the housing bubble, including Sept. 11 and more importantly the reaction to them. Those weeks after I remember clearly how looser credit was announced. Zero interest loans for cars, for example.

The US was headed over the falls into recession, and the govt/Fed pulled out all the stops. I also remember a RE broker from California telling me they’d had a good run up til 2001, and it would have been normal for it to correct. But for all sorts of reasons, it sailed upward.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-09-10 13:03:49

“The US was headed over the falls into recession, and the govt/Fed pulled out all the stops.”

What is different about current policy versus the one in place in the early-2000s which is now receiving so much retrospective criticism?

 
Comment by rms
2011-09-10 21:17:22

“Zero interest loans for cars, for example.”

I have been browsing the minivans lately since our station wagon is on its final leg. Two sites tout below 2% loans for new car purchases; we’re talking $35k plus! Wow, the sub-prime loans really are alive and kick’in.

FWIW, I wouldn’t sign a new car loan for 0% interest in this economic climate if Geithner had a loaded pistol against my head. The used car market is insane too, so we’ll continue to limp along…debt free!

Comment by DennisN
2011-09-11 00:51:51

Those zero percent auto loans from the manufacturers aren’t exactly free money. When I bought a car last month, my choice was 0% financing OR $1,000 rebate for cash.

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Comment by CA renter
2011-09-11 01:07:51

My housing bubble moment was in 1998, in Austin TX, when I found out my landlord was paying twice as much of the rental as I was paying him. I had already noticed all the construction in Central Texas, but it was only then I started thinking about the role of speculation.
———————-

My housing bubble moment was also in early 1998. I saw “flippers” for the first time in my life, and they were buying up old ranch-style homes, putting fancy finishes in them and selling them for DOUBLE what they had paid just months before. When we saw what they were asking, we would laugh…but then, they would sell within a few weeks. It was at that point that I knew something had changed, and was glad that I had just bought a house.

 
 
 
Comment by Overtaxed
2011-09-10 06:19:16

I think I kind of miss David L. He was an absolutely unrepentant shill, which made him much more fun to rip apart. Yun just kind of acts like he doesn’t know what his job is (because, frankly, there’s no need for the entire “corporation” that he runs) and doesn’t make statements nearly as outlandish as DL.

Oh well, I guess I just have to tune into HGTV and hear Sandra tell a couple with 3K in the bank that they can afford a 300K house to get my kicks.

Comment by Ben Jones
2011-09-10 06:44:19

‘Some in the real estate industry say the early cries of bubble should be called to account on the grounds of intellectual fairness. If the boosters have to acknowledge they were wrong when they provided justifications for prices that were, well, unjustifiable, then the doubters should also own up to the fact that they were too negative, too early.’

‘Even the people that were talking about booms busting, my goodness they were talking about it in 2001 and 2002,’ said David Lereah, the former chief economist with the National Association of Realtors. ‘And they were wrong for four years and they only became right at the end of 2004.’

‘He and his former employer had been criticized for the optimistic forecasts they made during the boom. Newspapers during the boom in the 1990s and in the early years of this decade expressed warnings about the housing market, along with more upbeat sentiments. But the critical voices often did not register above the din of the frenzied market.’

‘You got some of us sitting there in a distance saying that this is a bubble, we don’t know when its going to end,’ said Christopher F. Thornberg, an independent economist. ‘And then you have mortgage brokers and real estate agents who are much closer to the buyer who are whispering in their ear that, well, yeah, there are some markets that are out of line but not this neighborhood.’

‘Almost everyone would agree that of far greater import to the timing and performance of bubbles are interest rates and the availability of credit. Both are set by the market, but regulators at the Federal Reserve exert significant influence over them. The main discussion now, with the benefit of hindsight, is whether the central bank should have taken a more muscular approach in regulating mortgage lending and raised interest rates sooner.’

‘Last week, the Fed cut rates sharply to ease conditions in the credit market, kindling some fears of inflation. ‘We have had two bubbles in the last 10 years,’ noted economist Allen L. Sinai, the president and chief at a consulting firm based in New York. ‘The only way I would say it won’t happen — and this is arguable — is for the central bank to do something about it before it gets too far, and right now the central bank’s religion is not to interfere.’

http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/?p=3465

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-09-10 13:12:08

“…then the doubters should also own up to the fact that they were too negative, too early.”

Anyone who cannot see the bubble trend in the U.S. new home sales data going back to the early 1990s must be as blind as a bat.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-09-10 13:15:00

‘And they were wrong for four years and they only became right at the end of 2004.’

Guys like this were allowed to spout these lame MSM-quoted sound bites, and nobody questioned them. But when you look at the data, this statement is ridiculous, as many thought prices were already overvalued by the time of the tech stock peak in 2000, and they just kept marching steadily skyward for six more years before the collapse.

 
Comment by CA renter
2011-09-11 01:05:50

‘Even the people that were talking about booms busting, my goodness they were talking about it in 2001 and 2002,’ said David Lereah, the former chief economist with the National Association of Realtors. ‘And they were wrong for four years and they only became right at the end of 2004.’
——————

No, they weren’t wrong at all. The proof is in the fact that many houses are at or below their 2001 levels (and those that aren’t will get there eventually).

Like you’ve said, Ben. The bubble was well on its way in many places by 2001. The price of our very modest house had already doubled between early 1998 and 2001.

 
 
Comment by rms
2011-09-10 21:19:18

“He was an absolutely unrepentant shill…”

Another psychopath?

 
 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-09-10 06:50:45

Jeez… I missed the Times Union article, David Pinocchio Lereah’s visit to upstate and Ben’s post that day in Sept 2006. Apparently I was busy building a lined landfill in NJ that day. Anyways…

Notice Lereah’s language where he implicitly states, “it’s different here”, “better times are right around the corner” and “prices are headed up”. Some of you all seem to exonerate him and Realtor by saying it’s their job. However, how many have taken the rotten advice of He(now Yun) and Realtor and committed financial suicide from which they will never recover? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?

I maintain that CorporationNAR and NARscum continue to operate outside the law through a govt. granted monopoly… essentially a crime syndicate no different than The Commission was run by mafioso’s. They bottleneck, they skim, they extort, they conspire, they add friction to an already complicated transaction.

Comment by trainwreck
2011-09-10 07:19:03

Great! My weekend is never complete without a quote from LIEareah Diarreah.

Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-09-10 07:34:49

….. served hot with a side of (fun)Yuns. :)

Comment by nickpapageorgio
2011-09-10 19:57:56

I prefer LAY’s

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Comment by rms
2011-09-10 21:20:46

“…David Pinocchio Lereah…”

+1 LOL!

 
 
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-09-10 06:57:11

In November of 2001 I refinanced my mortgage to a 6% loan on a 15 year term. I recall saying to one of my co-workers at the time, “Six percent on a fifteen? It’s not going to go any lower than that!”

Little did I know…

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2011-09-10 14:42:07

Yowza. Just looked on bankrate and see that they are quoting the 15yr fixed at 3.38%! Wow.

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-09-10 21:00:52

Dare I say it again?

“Three and three eighths on a fifteen? It ain’t gonna go…”

Actually, I closed last December at 3.5% on a fifteen. The 10 year treasury was around there on the day I closed. The way I looked at it, getting a 15 year mortgage at a little under that day’s 10 year treasury rate was about as good as I could hope for.

 
 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2011-09-10 07:11:22

Then there’s this:

‘Within six months after George W. Bush took office, Muslim terrorists crashed jet planes into the World Trade Center in New York and attempted to hit the Pentagon and other governmental targets in the D.C. area. That understandably caused the Bush administration to re-deploy about 2,500 FBI agents from the white collar crime division to Homeland Security.’

‘…That left the FBI’s financial crime division grossly and disastrously understaffed for eight years…’

http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/2011/09/02/deregulation-desupervision-de-facto-decr-2008?blog=214

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-09-10 09:06:32

Within six months? How did this get past the editor? Doesn’t the president take office on Inauguration Day, January 20?

When the lead sentence in a story is incorrect it throws the whole piece into question.

I see a lot more errors these days than I did 10-15-20 years ago, especially in written communications.

Comment by Ben Jones
2011-09-10 10:06:33

That’s not the lead sentence, but it’s a hell of a rant on de-regulation, etc. I did search around for the FBI/mortgage fraud stuff and that was all I found in recent news.

 
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2011-09-10 21:02:47

Case in point: this is a headline copied and pasted from Yahoo:

France says believes the yuan is undervalued.

 
 
 
Comment by Müggy
2011-09-10 07:26:53

““By David Lereah. Before Sept. 11, housing was the only major sector of the economy standing tall, which was the primary reason the U.S. economy didn’t succumb to recession”

Wow, some we’ve been running on fumes for 10+ years. That’s what I suspected when I was living in NYC right after college.

 
Comment by scdave
2011-09-10 07:58:43

By some estimates, the housing collapse sucked up $6 trillion in wealth ??

“It was a phantom prosperity, as was painfully learned??

Well, it was until it wasn’t….

During the dream, it was damm real…5% unemployment…0% unemployment in the hot spots…People making real good money…Some people making truck loads….People feeling wealthier literally by the day…You can have it all…Just sign here and we will cut you a check..

Comment by Ben Jones
2011-09-10 08:26:09

‘During the dream, it was damm real…’People feeling wealthier literally by the day…’

This is where the mania part comes in. In 2005, I had a guy tell me his house in Sedona was going up $10k a month. I asked him how long he thought that could go on and he said, forever.

Above I mentioned, ‘I also remember a RE broker from California telling me they’d had a good run up til 2001, and it would have been normal for it to correct.’

Here’s the thing; he had bought into the mania by 2005 and only said this later in 2006 when he saw the cracks and reflected on how long the boom had been going on.

Looking back at these posts, it isn’t hard to see that the US PTB were desperate to keep the economy from collapsing after September 11. Recall that the stock market had been falling and then trading was halted. When it resumed, it dropped like a rock. Then the machine went to work. Whatever one might think of the motivations, etc, the housing boom turned into madness at some point; reason was discarded and a new real estate paradigm took hold.

Comment by scdave
2011-09-10 09:32:17

reason was discarded ??

Exactly Ben…”Reason” never entered into the thought process…The “thought” was, I must get there before the other guy beats me to it…I will even pay more than you want if you will only give me the “chance” to buy it…A feeding frenzy…

Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-09-10 10:43:30

Exactly Ben and Dave.

Also, the height of that mass delusion/feeding frenzy coincided the opening of this blog. For me it demonstrated itself physiologically first, mentally second. At the time it was too crazy to mentally process but that knotted feeling you get in your stomach when you sense real danger told me to go into a heightened defense mode.

9/11 was still real fresh and the PTB made it that way with their wars, color charts, etc. The Housing Crime Syndicate and 9/11 reactionary groups seemed to be the opposite ends of the attention spectrum back then. Get High on Housing vs.”The Monster is going to get you”. It was surreal and still is.

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Comment by CA renter
2011-09-11 01:12:51

Good post, exeter. You’re right about how our emotions were totally being played from both sides.

 
 
 
Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 11:00:12

Had first sense of bubble in early 2005. Had sold my house Upstate in 2002 for hefty profit (purchased in 1997 for long haul, then had desire to change city, go figure) though still <$100/ft-2 for the sale. Upstate is cheap.

In NYC for couple years, earning at time 5x the median income for USA (not 5x for NYC) but even still multiple of NYC median income and as I rented and browsed to buy, wondered why the heck at 5x national median income and probably 3x Manhattan median income, I would have crazy debt to buy a 600 ft-2 1/1 apartment? At time the 1b were around $600k. I could qualify for the loan, but I wondered how families ever could move here. I also noted- a not uncommon theme here- that my rent was substantially less than mortgage payment, which seemed odd, based on my awareness that people who tend to buy properties in order to rent them, expect positive cash flow.

I held off. Not unhappy I did, though still…

Family member had bought a 1 bdrm 1 bath in Manhattan for $150k in 1997. Sold it around 2003 for $400k. My upstate house in same time increased from $150k to $180k. My profit. When we both bought I’d thought him crazy to pay same price as my luxury house upstate for a hovel 1b in NYC. Little did I know. His old place now, even 3-4 years into the “bust” is still worth around $600k.

Manhattan continues to be sticky. Rents rise. Sales price might have been about level the last three years, some up a bit some down, still successfully hovering around $1000/ft-2 for nice places, or $700k for 700 ft-2 in elevator doorman building. Some higher some a bit lower.

I’ve tried to do the “right” thing (re housing economics) since growing aware of the bubble. Still rent. Looking to rent a nice 2bdrm apartment in a good building. 1200 ft-2, $5000/month. Buying one like it likely 1.3-1.4 million. I’ll rent thanks. And, yeah, the rent is still quite a kick in the gut.

I get that TARP money funneled through NYC , but really…

I’ve long snarked when people say “my town is different”. And yeah, “different” should manifest as identical price/income ratios, but with richer people in nice places. Even in a great place (perfect beach, great city, etc) the 3-3.5x income should hold true for housing prices, with better places selecting wealthier population.

But, this is not the case in NYC. I’m not trumpeting this point. Wish it were not so. But it is so. Young professionals put 4 people with $50k incomes each into carved up 2-bdrm apartments to make it work, but they still do it.

I’ve heard- cannot prove- that median income in Manhattan is ~ $100k/year (as of 2005). Yet entry level not-great 1 bdrm (not median!) apartments are $600k.

I’m patient. And I get that— how’s it go “you don’t always get what you want”– that I might never see normal price/income ratios in NYC, but this does get annoying. Manhattan might never crash to point that housing has normal price ratios to income. And so it goes…

Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-09-10 11:37:39

“Upstate is cheap.”

Wrong. Dead wrong.

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Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 12:11:38

I have owned Upstate. A am aware of relatively high taxes. I found living there to be cheap. My *very* nice modern house cost $150k at 1700 sq feet and taxes were $450/month.

As “cheap” is subjective, obviously, I find you in poor position to dispute my subjective view, but I am more than happy to hear why you find my house and my upstate living to have been… not cheap.

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-09-10 12:47:56

Guess what Doc?

 
Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 14:33:11

I guess many things. About which what would you have me guess?

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-09-10 16:13:02

You paid too much and so did your buyer.

 
Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 19:27:21

—You paid too much and so did your buyer.
—-

Yet, we both are happy and the living is/was cheap, as per my earlier note, so all is well, save apparently for some bitter observers.

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-09-10 20:54:11

You can be right and have the last word too. Proceed.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2011-09-10 11:46:51

‘this is not the case in NYC. I’m not trumpeting this point. Wish it were not so. But it is so’

Ah yes, the old “sorry guys, but there’s no bubble here” routine. Look at the articles in this post alone. Or look at Craigs New York or the Real Deal. How many broke developers do you need to see? How about the decades of REOs in the pipeline?

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Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 12:07:45

–Ah yes, the old “sorry guys, but there’s no bubble here” routine.—-

No, that’s NOT what I wrote. I do believe there is bubble here, as per the basic math I listed.

Rather, my point was, “what will it take to POP the *!@@*!!!! bubble here”.

Or, ‘When will the bubble finally pop here”

Broke developers are irrelevant to this. Price per square foot is holding in the zone ( +/- 10% of 2006 pricing, probably triple 1997 pricing), and rents are drifting up.

So, “routines” aside… thoughts?

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-09-10 13:20:04

‘this is not the case in NYC. I’m not trumpeting this point. Wish it were not so. But it is so’

Take it from a political strawman caricature artist…

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2011-09-10 17:42:27

Evil:

just look across the river in Long Island city they are still building queens west now they are luxury rentals..and 2 condozes at Hunterspoint and 2 on Jackson are virtually empty at night, yet many have outdoor patio funiture…i guess its staged..

Some one up the street is convering the garage into an illegal aprtment, they bout less then 2 years ago….they already converted the ground floor basement into a studio so now the garage…..

hope the wiring is up to code, ConED will not install a meter if there is no CO 3 apartments on 1 meter

 
Comment by MightyMike
2011-09-10 17:48:57

Young professionals put 4 people with $50k incomes each into carved up 2-bdrm apartments to make it work, but they still do it.

What’s the cost differential these days between Manahattan and the outer boroughs or places like Hoboken or Jersey City. Could a person with $50k income have his own bedroom in one of those areas?

“what will it take to POP the *!@@*!!!! bubble here”.

That’s the question, isn’t it? A couple of years ago somebody on this blog posted the house price/income ratio for San Diego for a 20-year period. I remember that the average ratio during that whole period was 5 or 6, with the lowest value being 4 back in the early 90s.

That prompts the question of what the situation is. Was this latest bubble in California built on top of a longer bubble that started there way back in the 1970s? Will that longer bubble finally deflate over the next 10 years? The whole thing seems to defy common sense ins omse ways.

 
Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 19:35:18

just look across the river in Long Island city they are still building queens west now they are luxury rentals..and 2 condozes—–

I respect that LI City might have issues. I’m not trying to nitpick, but really this gab is about good ol’ Manhattan. I was the guy sayin’ in 2005 “this is crazy. My brothers old apartment on 93rd street has gone from $150k to $600k in 8 years. The numbers don’t make sense. Not affordable based on basic rules”. It was that sort of thinking that led me to hunt HBB, along with few other good sites… in 2005. Nearly 7 years later now. Manhattan has higher sq-ft prices than it did then (though maybe down a smidge from 2008).

I split time upstate and downstate. I’ve posted here before about my 3/2 apartment (1400 ft-2, and all utilities including air-con included) in Syracuse running $850/month. Beautiful place. I’ve done various rentals in NYC in parallel, since 2002.

Manhattan STILL is grossly out of sync with conventional measures. Again, not an issue that rich people live here, or whatever. Even with median income for NYC we are at 8x-median (maybe higher) for median apartment.

I do get the basic patterns. I was aware of bubbles before housing became a bubble. I’d read about Tulips and Tea Companies just for fun back when I was in my 20’s. I knew Manhattan would be the last to fall.

But… so far Manhattan is nowhere near returning to normal Own/Rent cost ratios or Mortgage/Income ratios.

I’m certainly ready for it to do so. I’ve been in all cash FIDC-insured accounts for years now. Avoided the stock crash. But, i hope I don’t have to keep my powder dry so long I am buried with it one day ;) And, no, not bitter renter. I’ve saved so much in 8 years of renting since I sold my upstate house, compared to costs of comparable ownership, that I have fair spare change to show for the effort. Just getting a bit fatigued switching NYC apartments every year or two.

 
Comment by CA renter
2011-09-11 01:19:23

I hear you, doc. Here in San Diego, the lower end places have fallen to fairly reasonable levels because they crashed before the Fed/govt intervened. The mid-higher end stuff is still levitating way above what one would consider “normal” pricing. At some point, it does get old waiting for normalcy while life passes you by.

 
 
Comment by rms
2011-09-10 21:41:43

“I also noted- a not uncommon theme here- that my rent was substantially less than mortgage payment, which seemed odd, based on my awareness that people who tend to buy properties in order to rent them, expect positive cash flow.”

Attention in the Matrix, upper East Coast sector: one of the worker-bee’s medications appears to be wearing off before his shift is over; suggest an immediate re-dose before he starts talking!

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-09-10 08:59:38

“thus consumer spending, would thenceforth be measured not by household income but by inflated household asset valuation.

“Where art thou, $ingle Depo$it Tran$action’s”?

 
Comment by Jay55
2011-09-10 10:56:27
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-09-10 11:45:34

Response?

Realtors Are Liars®

 
 
Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 12:19:13

I accept that the data below (this is casual perusal) is gathered by realtards, but even if one argues the trend really is opposite of cited numbers, all these values are about triple 1997 values. And other info I’ve seen is in this ballpark.

I do not argue NYC didn’t/doesn’t have a bubble. The point more is that the stunningly high prices (not reflective just of “rich population” but in fact blowing out the usual sales price/income ratios discussed on HBB) are… persisting.

When does da bubble… pop?

Some numbers on NYC (median income around $100k)

————

—A one-bedroom unit in the Gramercy 19 development in Manhattan is listed for $825,000 — just slightly below the city’s median home price.—-

Median around $800k. Income around $100 for Manhattan. UES and Upper West Side similar.

Yeah, all bubbles pop. So if the housing bubble has popped, why is manhattan’s 1 bedroom apartments still 8x the median income of a household here. Time to explore subcatagories of populations?

Or, when will the NYC bubble pop… enough?

Comment by Ben Jones
2011-09-10 12:36:11

Tomorrow I’ll have a readers topic on why some areas/countries have had more resistance to price declines. Check back then.

But the short answer is, it already has, IMO. Some places take longer than others.

Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 14:31:04

—But the short answer is, it already has, IMO. Some places take longer than others.—-

I concur.

Manhattan has been something (perhaps not everything) of a rule breaker. In my neighborhood (Upper West Side, 90’s, West End- Columbus Ave) several new buildings (big buildings) have gone up the last year or three. Fancy. Sold out or rented out (NYC does see buildings built to rent, not just failed condos) in short order. Have not seen new buildings started the last year or so in this general area.

As one who saw bubbles in 2005– i found this blog then because I was hunting the net for bubble info; i was not put onto the idea of bubbles *from* this blog– I dealt with the usual arguments from local NYC real estate lovers (usually fresh buyers or would be buyers) who argued NYC was Different, due to, ya know… “rich foreigners want to be here, Wall Street, they aren’t making land anymore”. My counterpoint was that all this was also true in 1997 when apartments were 1/3 the price.

But, even with TARP, Wall Street took major hits. “Foreigners” are in more financial trouble than is the USA, the PIIGS are about toast, they HAVE made more land here the last few years, so to speak… and so forth.

But the rules we embrace at HBB, those that determine where prices settle after bubbles pop– House Price/ Income ratio, House Price/Rental Value ratio remain utterly out of whack here in Manhattan, possibly still with 1 bedroom apartments 6-8x median family income.

I had no doubt, when I first started talking bubbles with friends, long before some of the posters here had changed their names three times since I met them here in 2005, that Manhattan would be last man standing as the inevitable pop happened.

Perhaps the key is in considering “capital D” vs “small d” differences when we use the word “different”. Nowhere is “Different” when it all shakes out, but some places no doubt are different (small- d) or have… differences. All of which makes me unhappy, because, frankly, I would not mind getting a nice apartment in the Upper West Side to keep for me and eventual family for the next 30 years. But, I’d rather rent one at 5k/month than buy similar for $1.5 million, for all the reasons long discussed at this blog, which I will not reiterate now.

Salaries are not rising here and as median cannot sustain current prices.. But, prices vary only slightly from three years ago.

Comment by Ben Jones
2011-09-10 14:38:02

I don’t think you get my meaning, and I’ll keep it short until tomorrow. By enough, I mean enough to know what will probably happen. You might as well look in the mirror and guess if you’ll still have hair, or teeth or even still be alive before this thing is over, IMO.

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Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 14:52:01

I look forward to reading…

 
Comment by Müggy
2011-09-10 17:56:25

Oh God, I might end up as a toothless renter in Florida.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-09-10 12:31:52

“The expansion that began in November 1991, when mortgage rates fell into single digits, became a boom following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, when trillions of dollars left the stock market looking for a safe haven in real estate, said David Lereah, chief economist at the National Association of Realtors.”

Aren’t mortgage rates even lower now than in November 1991 (or was it 2001)? What is to stop housing prices from bubbling through the roof again with the help of rock bottom interest rates?

Comment by MightyMike
2011-09-10 17:56:26

There are millions of empty houses all over the country. That should be a force that will push prices down.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-09-10 22:42:46

Except the PTB are trying their best to lighten the potential load that would otherwise naturally be created by the force of millions of homes in shadow inventory. Never mind if millions and millions of vacant homes crumble into desuetude; so long as banks are able to artificially inflate the value of RE-related assets on their books, it’s all worth it!

 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower&(trade);
2011-09-10 12:39:25

“By April 2002, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan was already addressing the issue of a possible bubble forming in real estate prices.”

Four years of jawboning later, the attempt to address the issue of a possible bubble forming in real estate prices culminated with the onset of a spectacular and protracted crash which nobody could have seen coming.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower&(trade);
2011-09-10 12:42:33

“But I think the symbolism of getting the economy back on its feet led them to keep rates at 0 for too long.”

Ten years down the road, what has the Fed learned, and how have they adjusted their policy stance to reflect it?

Comment by CA renter
2011-09-11 01:23:21

That’s the 64 trillion dollar question, isn’t it?

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower&(trade);
2011-09-10 12:53:02

“Would the Federal Reserve have kept interest rates as low as it did for as long as it did? If not, would we have had a housing price bubble and the Great Recession? Would so many St. Louis homeowners be facing foreclosure now?”

Looking on the bright side of the situation, at least the MSM has moved on sufficiently from the denial phase of the housing bubble stages of grief to openly acknowledge that St. Louis, near the geographic center of the U.S.A., was in a massive bubble which led to many St. Louis homeowners now facing foreclosure. By contrast, when HBBers were documenting several years back that the bubble stretched from Sea to Shining Sea, MSM-favored real estate ‘experts’ were assuring everyone that there was no real estate bubble and insinuating that anyone who suggested otherwise was a crackpot.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-09-10 13:00:08

“Only now do we learn that what was reported to be U.S. GDP growth of 1.3 per cent in the first quarter of 2001 was, in fact, a contraction of 1.3 per cent. As Makinen notes dryly, a change of 2.6 per cent ‘is a pretty large revision.’”

Important question: Was this a deliberate misstatement of GDP designed to hide economic reality from view, or an innocent error? Americans should collectively demand to know the answer, as everyone pays close attention to headline figures on the health of the economy, and news that government data releases might be routinely distorted should hence be worrisome.

 
Comment by WT Economist
2011-09-10 13:26:33

Residing in New York, I saw the bubble inflating before 9/11. Or should I say re-inflating, since it had just deflated from the 1980s housing bubble.

The selling prices of houses identical to mine had increased 2 1/2 times since 1994, which I considered fair value. Some of that was the city becoming a better place to live relative to the suburbs and other places, and was real. But some of it was not.

I thought 9/11 would stop the bubble in New York, particularly when combined with the collapse of the stock market bubble and recession. Instead, prices kept soaring.

That’s when things became unexplainable to me.

Comment by evildocs
2011-09-10 14:32:08

Be careful, CIBT might call you a troll ;)

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-09-10 18:26:50

I’m sitting on my hands — actually headed to the gym.

Look forward to all of your posts tomorrow! :-)

 
 
Comment by CA renter
2011-09-11 01:26:21

I thought 9/11 would stop the bubble in New York, particularly when combined with the collapse of the stock market bubble and recession. Instead, prices kept soaring.

That’s when things became unexplainable to me.
——————

Exactly what had me scratching my head, too. Not to mention the fact that the price of our house had doubled already between 1998 and 2001. A friend asked me if I wanted to get into flipping with her in 2001, and I told her that she was making a big mistake because prices were about to fall…. :(

 
 
Comment by 45north
2011-09-10 19:40:23

The Department of Homeland Security sure looks like an ass: according to the youtube video, in August they raided Gibson Guitar, an American company. According to the CEO Henry Juszkiewiez, Homeland Security has completely misinterpreted the application of US law regards importation of wood.

Now I have not studied this beyond listening to the youtube video so it may be that I am too quick to judge. Homeland Security needs to explain its actions.

 
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