October 10, 2011

Bits Bucket for October 10, 2011

Post off-topic ideas, links, and Craigslist finds here.




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Comment by Robert
2011-10-10 02:36:14

Question:

Planning to buy a property at a discount of 20-30K (which will almost certainly be accepted), which will knock down the purchase price of the property to about 110-120K. Taxes on property are currently at about $1,300 dollars.

How much can I expect the tax bill to decrease?

Thanks!

Comment by Hard Rain
2011-10-10 05:35:35

Using a current value of 140k and a sales price of 120k you would save about 186 dollars.

 
Comment by polly
2011-10-10 05:50:20

Is this a serious question? If so, you need to answer all of the following:

What is the current tax valuation of the property?
When is it scheduled to be re-evaluated for property tax purposes?
Does a sale cause it to be re-evaluated even if it is not scheduled to be re-evaluated that year?
Are you allowed to contest the tax valuation?
If you are allowed to protest, how likely are you to get it changed down to a recent sale price (what standards are used in the jurisdiction)?
What is the mil rate?
What will the mil rate be next year?

Depending on your answers, the property tax bill could go up, not down.

 
Comment by Awaiting
2011-10-10 09:18:54

Robert
S L O W would be my answer, and I believe that is regardless of any county, any state. Call your agent for the area taxes total which included county and city (school taxes included). For instance, for the area we just put in an offer, the price we pay X 1.0753= annual amt. (CA)
Hope that helps.
You Real-turd should have disclosured it with you. Man, they are all alike. Ours didn’t either, but we did our due diligence, and this is our 3rd home in the area, but not in this city.

 
Comment by Anon In DC
2011-10-10 10:08:18

Happy Columbus Day. I don’t get it - it’s too unPC for or firm - terrible white European males. (But took it off because of the nice weather.)
This reminds me. Yesterday there were some posts about the property taxes in Chicago going way up. Someone posted that not too long they’ll have a prop 13. Some people on this board think prop 13’s effect has not been good. But I disagree. It might be flawed but it’s better than taxing people on a paper gain. Also it contributes to the bubble since the assesors have a vested interest in inflated values. I think income tax is a better way to pay for schools and other local functions or maybe a combo of property of income.
But papers gains are not real.

Comment by Steve J
2011-10-10 11:40:29

How does prop 13 prevent government spending? Doesn’t it insulate homeowners effects of voting for spending programs since the know they will not have to pay for them?

It seems that California and Florida had run away spending as a result of prop 13.

Comment by Pete
2011-10-10 15:00:13

“How does prop 13 prevent government spending?”

It would, theoretically. With a responsible govt. and voting population.

“It seems that California and Florida had run away spending as a result of prop 13.”

Although we did, finally slash our Ca state budget this year out of necessity. Just took a while. We’ll see if any lessons were learned. Prop 13 was a reaction to excess taxation. Overall, as someone above said, it’s a good thing, if flawed. Like the MID, it should only apply to one home per family, imo.

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Comment by skroodle
2011-10-10 17:19:33

If no properties are sold within a town in a given year, how does the town deal with normal inflation?

 
Comment by Pete
2011-10-10 19:51:54

“If no properties are sold within a town in a given year, how does the town deal with normal inflation?”

I’m unclear on your question on many levels. If you’re asking how a city pays for more expensive upkeep with decreasing revenue, I suppose they raise local taxes. Not sure if that’s what you’re asking, though.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2011-10-11 01:08:45

Pete:

I agree with your overall sentiment…Prop 13 should apply only to primary residences.

To answer the question about inflation though…to my understanding, Prop 13 restricts increases in property taxes to 2% per year, regardless of inflation.

How the government deals with “normal” inflation?

Either:

1) They cut spending (hasn’t happened in CA until recently based on new laws requiring 2/3 majority for new taxes OR fees); or
2) Income taxes contribute a higher and higher percentage of overall tax revenue…as had been happening in CA for a while post Prop 13.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Bad Chile
2011-10-10 10:22:09

Probably none.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2011-10-10 10:32:37

Yeah, it depends. In Portland they’d still go up since the “Assessed” values are about 2-3x the “Market” value.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2011-10-10 10:34:08

…2-3x LOWER than…

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Comment by traderjack
2011-10-10 11:52:06

my contention is that prop 13 contributed to the real estate bubble in the start by making homes more affordable and thereby increasing demand.

I voted against it even though, at the time it saved me $800 a year. But I lost a lot of tax deduction from income tax, and the city went from paying things through property tax to charging fees for trash pick, etc.,

It also shorted the City and County tax income and caused some lowering of services and street repair.

Still affecting the tax income of the City and County, and we still complain about pot holes, water rates, and sewer rates.

Used to be about $15 for sewer services, now about $125 for the same service.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2011-10-11 01:16:17

@traderjack:

The CA problem was one of lack of supply…in the 90’s, CA added 4 million new people, and only 1 million new housing units…the 00’s housing construction also didn’t keep up with population growth…believe it or not, this is just the data…look up in the census the number of housing units and the population of various states…CA has the second highest number of people per housing unit (second to UT).

There was a festering imbalance of people/places to live.

This was the tinder for the fire…the spark was free money to anyone who could fog a mirror (or who people thought might fog a mirror). Once that happened, CA had more demand for housing at all price points.

It is possible that Prop 13 contributes to less affordable housing in CA as compared to other states, but this has been an underlying fact of CA housing for decades, not just the past 10 years…the real cause of the bubble in CA was the combination of supply/demand imbalance and free money.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Muggy
2011-10-10 03:00:04

From last night:

“I personally would not lock in to something that didn’t feel right, but it is certainly your call…”

That’s the thing, nothing feels right to me. There is too much oscillation in my state and no stability. I have no idea what the future will bring, and I don’t think buying a house does anything to help, in fact, it locks you into a certain set of assumptions, and right now I think we all assume (yes, even the doomers) that normal will be back before abnormal.

My gut tells me things will be abnormal for a while. So much so that I’ve already started my, “that’s why you gotta do what you love, with people you love” speech for my kiddos.

Counting on anything else to give you stability would be your own misallocation of resources, IMHO. I think renting and owning will both be a mistake. The Blue Skye plan, if you can do it, is going to be the only way out, I’m afraid.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 05:32:44

“That’s the thing, nothing feels right to me.”

Don’t buy, then. (We’re in the same boat…)

 
Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 05:43:42

Already retired(?) and an outright owner of a dwelling, yes, that’s the way to go. But for most of us, buying or renting and continuing to work are our only options, and both are troublesome.

Comment by SUGUy
2011-10-10 06:14:47

There is a third option. Take you future into your own hands. Start a need based practical business not a wishful silly one. I am repeating myself “it is easier to make money than it is to make a living”. Most people choose the difficult path.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 06:48:43

Is that why most new businesses fail?

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Comment by Awaiting
2011-10-10 09:36:37

oxide
We’re not retired, but when the bubble was full force, we decided our home was a “woman killer” & “engergy monster” (4,000 sq ft/2 people & grand piano) and got the h*ll out. We’re aging boomers who are reducing our expenses. Housing is a big chunk of our monthly nut for all of us.

What floors us in the success of this controlled collapse. Who would have ever thunk. We are Japan II, only worse imo.

Comment by cactus
2011-10-10 12:21:45

Awaiting
You were smart lots of Boomers were trading up to get even more leverage and eventual cash out equity to go “oil City” las Vegas Nevada was the one paticular destination I remember having a older co-worker tell me about.

Now days I think about buying because I calculate a better cash flow assuming no major repairs are needed and flat RE values.

I’ll probably oil city but not for at least 10 years.

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Comment by sfrenter
2011-10-10 12:31:04

What floors us in the success of this controlled collapse. Who would have ever thunk.

Yeah, but the environmental and climate collapse will elude any attempts at control.

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Comment by Awaiting
2011-10-10 13:05:27

Cactus-
Leverage is sooo over-rated, unless you really know what you’re doing. We just wanted to take our cash and buy a home with no mortgage. Who the h*ll knew it would take this long. And then our first offer is an REO. We’re not as jazzed anymore. I honestly wish the other bidders luck. The house has some caveats that are non-fixable or very expensive to fix.

“elude” is right,sfrenter. Eventually Mr. Market will hand the ptb their a** back. You’ve got to admit, this collapse is happening much slower than expected. Can they speed it up. I’m over 50.

 
 
 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2011-10-10 06:19:47

When we bought the house in 2001 (10% down), it seemed like it was mostly an unconscious decision. The main focus was around packing, moving, unpacking, getting the utilities switched over, new curtains, Etc. After six months or so the focus quickly shifted to refinancing and obtaining the lowest interest rate possible which led to 4 refinancings. In essence riding the interest rates down. In 2006 the focus shifted from having 3 months of income in savings to having a years worth. The current focus is paying the house off as soon as possible.

Seeing what happened in the aftermath of the housing bubble and knowing what I know now, I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable buying a house today, tomorrow, or 5 years from now.

Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 07:06:19

I have a small needs based business; it cost 120k in start up fees and pays me a profit of about $700 bucks a month. Its a house! But if we move it we give up the money. but we will likely rent a house near kids school and also wife’s work. And limit the rent to hopefully not too much more than the house profit.

BUT We are members in two campgrounds, one has a policy of two weeks in; one week out for the whole year, so 2/3 of our time could be in our trailer with utilities paid for a grand total of $325 per year.
The other membership has a park 8 miles down the road and will cover the rest of the time, it is $600 per year. This one is a network of parks.

So we could live for $100/month rent and utilities. We use a little propane for cooking, all electric heat is covered.
Downside; the four of us would drive each other crazy in our 23 foot travel trailer.

Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 07:52:44

the four of us would drive each other crazy in our 23 foot travel trailer ??

Get one of those big honking 5th wheels like the Big Sky Montana…. :)

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Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 09:07:36

I have a big honkin’ fifth wheel but it wouldn’t matter. It would be a mass murder scene If I had to share it with 4 people.

 
Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 09:42:34

But 5th wheels are too expensive if they are in good shape(for us). We really are not ready, unless absolutely necessary, to live in a campground on a permanent basis.

But full timing is such a trend, supposedly the controlling stake of our membership campground, now called Equity Lifestyles, is one of the richest real estate moguls in the USA, Sam Zell, has gotten into it. He sees the trends of full timers and is capitalizing on them.

Buying out the membership campgrounds and changing the rules. I leased a site three winters ago for $600 bucks so I could teach at the coast(low usage time made for only about 6 people occupying the park). Now that site is on offer to lease; but for $3600! And the lessee can keep their RV there all the time and use it 180 days. So in summer the best spots are taken and in the winter they are chained and unavailable to the regular membership folks. Pure diabolical genius!

So full timing is becoming like buying land in Costa Rica. Good idea before everyone started doing it. Or moving with your equity $$ to Oregon from California. Worked until they raised the prices in Oregon. Now we see rents here up to $2000/month. We could move back to S. California for that!

We have a lifetime camping membership that Sam no longer offers. Zell is in the business of selling park model trailers on leased sites and then evicting the tenant when their lease expires. He sells the trailer homes for 35k to 85k. but the beauty of it is evicting the tenant; then doing it all over again. They are trying to get us to “upgrade” our membership as they want to change the lifelong membership to a five year term. Meanwhile he is leasing out the best sites at our favorite beach campground.

According to another lifelong member (who along with us has been a member since the late 80s) the corporation does not want lifetime members sucking electricity, and as such, has eliminated the lifetime contract except for those who are grandfathered in.

we felt kinda envious about our friends who have a 40 ft Bounder. then the wife confided to my wife that they were hopelessly underwater on the 15 yr MORTGAGE they took out on the sucker, and the monthlies are not so easy due to an income loss.

Somehow piling into our $4,000, paid off trailer doesn’t feel so confining!

Who is folly enough to take out a mortgage on a recreational vehicle?? Someone else we know bought a Bounder that is 12 years old, and in great shape, for $15,000. I am sure our friends paid more than 100k. Catch is they cant sell it now that times are tight, cuz they are underwater. May as well have bought a submarine!

We thought surely they owned their RV outright, they are the nicest folks you could ever hope to meet….but almost as dumb with their money as we were, losing our home to foreclosure and all…..

 
Comment by Elanor
2011-10-10 10:06:29

Sam Zell is the kind of person that #OWS is protesting against. In interviews, he comes off sounding like a cold-blooded sociopathic monster. And those are the flattering portraits. Ask anyone who works at the Chicago Tribune what he did to that place when he owned it. He’s a classic robber baron.

 
 
 
Comment by Awaiting
2011-10-10 07:19:17

I thank you all for your feedback on our offer to purchase yesterday. Man, this is nerve-racking. It would sure to nice to own and have a $350/mo tax liability only (plus ins.& maintenance) but this home was redone in all tile flooring, and is fugly (cost prohibited to redo the flooring-penciled out all changes needed to enjoy the home) and although it’s an RV size lot with a pool and spa (Hilton Hotel size- bad news $$$$), the noise of the street, and the neighbor to the left is bugging me. He was hiding behind a front yard fence ease-dropping on us. I could see him peek up periodically. LOL Neighbors make or break a happy neighborhood. The bank will not counter until Wednesday evening, so we have time to ponder this. You see, we don’t want to have buyer’s remose. I’m thinking “my gut” is screaming…wrong house.

Oh, and our Buyer’s Broker gave us horsechit about some stuff, so we emailed the city for the info. Realturds don’t like us self-directed buyers. They like to lead the sheeples off the cliff and close the deal, pronto.

Comment by Awaiting
2011-10-10 07:45:16

Guys/Gals, get this. We had to supply FICO’s (820’s +)and prove reserves for a CASH deal for a REO. That’s insane.

Ben- Have you heard that’s normal?

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Comment by Rental Watch
2011-10-11 01:20:55

Bankers are sheep…they have probably had so many escrows fall out that they simply need to check boxes as to not get fired.

I’m guessing you needed to supply the information to get INTO contract? While you may be expecting to pay all cash (and have the bank statements to show the means), the banker probably doesn’t want to get fired if it turns out that you decide to get a mortgage and can’t.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2011-10-11 01:23:40

P.S. Awaiting: We frequently see such behavior on the commercial side of things. A bank won’t go into contract with you on REO unless and until you prove your financial capabilities to close all cash. In some cases this includes audited financial statements. The reason is pretty simple…I’ve seen a TON of escrows fall out on the commercial side due to an inability to raise the money to close.

 
 
Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 07:52:47

Keep looking imo. Between the nosy neighbor and busy street it’s a no go in my book.

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Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 07:47:07

My gut tells me things will be abnormal for a while ??

A generation ??

Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 07:53:50

“A generation ??”

I’d say that’s almost a slam dunk at this point.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2011-10-10 16:53:44

It’s already been 30 years. This will not turn around “on a dime.”

 
 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 03:20:32

GOP Blames Obama for Encouraging Anti-Wall Street “Mobs”

Cantor: “Believe it or not, some in this town have actually condoned the pitting of Americans against Americans.”
By Will Oremus
Slate

The debate over the Occupy Wall Street protests took on a harsh tenor Friday, with Republican leader Rep. Eric Cantor denouncing the demonstrators as “mobs” and slamming President Obama for allegedly encouraging them.

“This administration’s failed policies have resulted in an assault on many of our nation’s bedrock principles,” he said. “If you read the newspapers today, I for one am increasingly concerned about the growing mobs occupying Wall Street and the other cities across the country. And believe it or not, some in this town have actually condoned the pitting of Americans against Americans.”

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 03:24:24

Looks like the repubs have decided to go all-out against the protests. I guess they’re worried some Tea Partiers might join in.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:12:32

They have also shown their willingness to summarily discount the movement as “class warfare,” thereby discounting whatever grievances stirred so many Americans to walk away from their teevees, pack up their bags, and head to the nearest financial district.

Propaganda won’t make the grievances go away.

Comment by combotechie
2011-10-10 04:26:26

These demonstrations tell me the thirteen-trillion-or-so dollars that was dumped into the financial system in order to save it won’t be repeated. Which means the financial system will more-or-less have to operate on its own.

Good luck with that.

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Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 05:11:53

Maybe that trader on British TV — the one who dreamed of another recession — was right. We’re in for a major dive. But how far down? Enough to panic now? Enough to move entirely to cash (which I’d rather not do)? Enough to keep stocks but invest a little cash at the bottom? Enough to wait and tough it out (I still have 20 years to retirement)? Enough to stock up on canned peas and AK-47s?

 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 05:01:30

“They have also shown their willingness to summarily discount the movement as “class warfare,”

Apparently, claiming, for example, that many don’t pay federal income tax is legitimate political discourse, but pointing out that the rich have all sorts of tax advantages is ‘class warfare’.

Funny how that works. Maybe some of our local repub apologists can explain the difference.

Is it class warfare only when it’s directed at the upper class?

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 05:08:39

“Maybe some of our local repub apologists can explain the difference.”

The HBB’s RNC subcommittee has been oddly silent on the OWS discussion…

 
Comment by Hard Rain
2011-10-10 05:28:47

Nice work by the PTB to quickly transform this in to a DEM/GOP debate. OWS must disavow the Democrats and keep their anger on point. Not likely…

 
Comment by goon squad
2011-10-10 05:51:47

oddly silent on the OWS discussion

Read the article comments on any WSJ or MarketWatch article about OWS. So much hatred there, can’t understand why the 60-75th percentile are so protective of the 1%’s national rape and looting.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 05:58:48

“Nice work by the PTB to quickly transform this in to a DEM/GOP debate.”

I think the PTB tried to ignore or laugh off the protests, but when they wouldn’t go away but instead showed signs of strengthening, the GOP chose to attack the protests, in order to head off any possible support by Tea Partiers. They don’t want a _real_ populist movement springing up. Especially one that crosses party lines.

 
Comment by michael
2011-10-10 06:11:25

i find it all very amusing.

 
Comment by polly
2011-10-10 06:37:46

“the GOP chose to attack the protests, in order to head off any possible support by Tea Partiers”

That is an interesting take, alpha. I see it more as a way to attract the Wall Street donations for the next election cycle as the Wall Streeters have shown themselves so sensitive to people being mean to them. But your take is also a plausible motive.

That being said, I think we have all ignored one large element of the upcoming presidential election in our discussions here. There is a difference between a first term president and a second term one. What they want to do will vary with the candidate, of course, and guessing what they really do want is a sucker’s game, but a first term president remains very much beholden to their party’s base. A second term president is less attached. What goes on with Congressional control is even more important, but whether a president is in re-election mode or legacy creation mode also matters.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 06:43:14

“A second term president is less attached.”

For that reason, with other things equal, I would prefer a second term president.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 06:55:03

Funny how that works. Maybe some of our local repub apologists can explain the difference.

Its easy. Those with the gold make the rules.

Is it class warfare only when it’s directed at the upper class?

Yup. As was pointed out above, picking on the under $500/wk “Lucky Duckies”, the 100B that is spent on foodstamps and school lunches and calling for the abolition of Social Security is “legitimate” political discourse.

 
Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 07:49:10

” but a first term president remains very much beholden to their party’s base. A second term president is less attached.”

Obama has mostly lost his base far ahead of any possible second term, at least in terms of support for many of the things he’s done. I’m not sure what that portends should he be reelected.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 08:16:32

claiming…that many don’t pay federal income tax is legitimate political discourse, but pointing out that the rich have all sorts of tax advantages is ‘class warfare’.

…Maybe some of our local repub apologists can explain the difference.

I don’t think most of them even choose to understand the question as it causes doubt in their convictions.

(LaGreca) was on Christiane Amanpour’s show yesterday and held his own against George Will and Peggy Noonan.

George Will looked punked and flustered on what was going on in his little world. Noonan was not as dismissive of OWS as Will was.

Funny how they don’t demonstrate DC and in front of the White House

Maybe they think there is a chance that Pres. Obama and the Democrats will turn populist which might be scaring the Republicans about now.

Either the movement will fizzle out or it will begin to grow exponentially.

Get out there people. (even if you’re just on vacation) The people are thinner and younger than the tea partiers and the older women don’t dye their hair as much. There were a few “hippie” left but most were regular looking folks. (I saw no sidearms)

the GOP chose to attack the protests, in order to head off any possible support by Tea Partiers.

Ron Paul has been supportive. Cain’s class war and hostile rant will come back to bite him big if he wins the nomination IMO.

i find it all very amusing. (Marie Antoinette, 1789?)

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 08:55:54

“Ron Paul has been supportive.”

I wouldn’t call it wholehearted support, but he’s a lot more supportive than the other Republican candidates.

Ron Paul Talks About the Occupy Wall Street Protests

Michael Tracey | October 1, 2011
Reason

On Friday, after Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) concluded a town hall-style meeting at an old folks’ home in Concord, New Hampshire, I asked him what he made of the ongoing Occupy Wall Street protests, which have included a noticeable contingency of Paul supporters. On Thursday night, for example, a group of young men assembled at Liberty Plaza in Lower Manhattan were wielding anti-Federal Reserve placards and promoting Paul’s presidential campaign.

“If they were demonstrating peacefully,” Paul told me, “and making a point, and arguing our case, and drawing attention to the Fed–I would say, good!”

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 09:05:06

(Ron Paul’s) a lot more supportive than the other Republican candidates.

This just in:
Roemer Is First Candidate to Embrace “Occupy Wall Street”

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/10/10/roemer-is-first-candidate-to-embrace-occupy-wall-street/

Dark-horse GOP presidential candidate Buddy Roemer has been the only contender to embrace the Occupy Wall Street protests in Lower Manhattan and other urban centers. On Tuesday, he plans to join the protests in New York, according a post on his Twitter account Sunday night.

“I am concerned and outraged, as are many, at Wall Street greed. I will be joining Occupy Wall Street NYC Tuesday to see it firsthand,” he wrote….

…In some ways, Mr. Roemer makes sense as the Occupy candidate. His campaign accepts only donations of $100 or less, an effort to limit the influence of special interests, the candidate says. Mr. Roemer served four terms as a Democratic congressman from Louisiana,

….Occupy Wall Street “is non-partisan,” Mr. Roemer wrote on Twitter. “They are fellow Americans who are uniting against corporate greed and are saying `enough already.’ ”

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 09:19:39

“I don’t think most of them even choose to understand the question as it causes doubt in their convictions.”

BINGO! The very prospect of having to *think* frightens them. The entire point of adhering to an ideology is to avoid thought. The fundamental point of advancing an ideology is control.

Very sad.

 
Comment by measton
2011-10-10 09:46:43

If demonizing doesn’t work expect the PTB to send in thugs and tell the police to let them start a few fires and a few fights as an excuse to take out the protest leadership.

 
Comment by michael
2011-10-10 09:50:27

“i find it all very amusing. (Marie Antoinette, 1789?)”

yep…that’s me.

marie antoinette.

i find it amusing in the sense that both the tea party and the occupy movements have a common thread which neither seems to be able to articulate and both are very suspectible to manipulation by the PTB through their tool the MSM…much the same way a few people here are.

it’s amusing.

 
Comment by Carl Morris
2011-10-10 09:51:32

So much hatred there, can’t understand why the 60-75th percentile are so protective of the 1%’s national rape and looting.

From the ones I know I think that:

1. They really do think that could be them someday…or for sure their kids.

2. They really do think that’s where the jobs come from…at least for them and their kids. Maybe some of them are right on this one?

3. They really are ignorant about how the 1% have been screwing everybody including them. They’ve been too busy trying to make a life for themselves and their kids to notice. Just human nature.

4. The people trying to bring the problems to their intention have been their enemy in the culture wars for over 40 years now. It’s a huge hurdle in their minds to start listening to anything “they” say now.

 
Comment by michael
2011-10-10 09:59:16

i sometimes think

RioAmericanInBrasil/2banana eual Locke/Demosthenes.

 
Comment by michael
2011-10-10 10:08:31

actually my comparison needs revision:

The “tea party” and “occupy” movements are much like Demosthenes and Locke. The real crisis will begin when their contradictory rhetoric gives way to their common underlying thread…the end of the status quo.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 10:09:04

the tea party and the occupy movements have a common thread which neither seems to be able to articulate

The OWS’s “failure to articulate their message” talking point being pushed by the MSM is a canard. It works on many because many Americans are suspectible to manipulation by the PTB through their tool the MSM.

But….from what I personally saw, about 90% of the OWS’s message is that 99% of Americans have been betrayed by corporations and their government to the benefit of the very few.

The signs at the rallies were not that complicated. One just said “JOBS”. (How amusing and anti-American is that?)

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 10:12:45

i sometimes think

About punctuation marks? :)

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 11:20:43

(How amusing and anti-American is that?)

Rio, hey welcomes back! :-)

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 11:47:31

Thank you Hwy50!

michael,
I understand that you find it amusing for different reasons than Marie Antoinette would have and your amusement is much more understandable than hers was.

 
Comment by traderjack
2011-10-10 15:03:37

Please tell me how the 1% have screwed and raped the people! Or tell me how they have screwed and raped you individually!

And , if you can, name that nasty individual that screwed and raped you!

Don’t think you can and it is simply rhetorical statements made by posters.

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 16:00:45

How about you tell us how they haven’t.

waiting.

 
 
 
Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 08:06:35

Now where did I put that damn fiddle?

 
Comment by sfrenter
2011-10-10 12:34:14

I am impressed and saddened by this website. It is done well: puts a face to the protests:

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

Would like to force Herman Cain to read all the posts.

Comment by Carl Morris
2011-10-10 13:35:12

I’m pretty sure he’d still say it was their fault.

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Comment by CarrieAnn
2011-10-10 15:06:22

Wow! I was wrong.

I thought these people just wanted a job. But most of what I read said they had a job or several. It/they just didn’t pay for their student loans or their medical bills.

One woman wrote about paying into the system for good insurance for years only to be turned down when she made a claim after being diagnosed w/cancer.

Crap! We have no debt but sometimes I wonder how long can we keep that up w/kids needing college soon and us hitting those years when we might need extreme medical care. I think sometimes those of us that haven’t fallen into the trap yet fool ourselves regarding just how easy it would be to join these people in a similar situation.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:58:38

Republicans are out of touch. Unless they figure out a way to rig the ballot boxes to deliver votes, 1% ain’t gonna cut it.

October 9, 2011 8:29 PM
“Occupy Wall Street” now in 25 cities
By Bigad Shaban

The movement known as “Occupy Wall Street” has spread far beyond its starting point in lower Manhattan. CBS News correspondent Bigad Shaban reports that it now has offshoots in 25 cities nationwide, and political leaders from both sides are weighing in.

From D.C. to Alabama to Portland, demonstrators protest everything from corporate greed to joblessness to economic inequality.

Back in N.Y., 39-year-old Jesse LaGreca is one of the more prominent voices.

“You’ve got people here being told they need to face a lower standard of living, that we can’t pay the wages that we used to enjoy, that the promises that were made to our grandparents are going to be broken,” LaGreca said.

World War II veteran Edward Davis and his wife, Esther, are both in their 80s, and remember marching for equality during the civil rights movement. This, they say, is just as historic for struggling Americans.

Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 05:40:09

LaGreca is a major contributor to DailyKos. He was on Christiane Amanpour’s show yesterday and held his own against George Will and Peggy Noonan. I think George and Peggy were a little taken aback that a representitive of the movement was not a hippie, not on drugs, and articulate and on point.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 07:44:17

George Will and Peggy Noonan are not “conservatives.” They are neo-con propagandists.

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Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 06:19:43

Funny how they don’t demonstrate DC and in front of the White House

Odd - isn’t it?

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 06:33:31

One of the articles I posted already stole your thunder, pal.

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Comment by polly
2011-10-10 06:47:29

They are demonstrating in DC. On K Street.

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2011-10-10 06:55:50

(Yawn). Wake me when it becomes “Occupy Capitol Hill.” Because until pressure is put on those who are at the heart of all this, nothing is going to change. Wall Street’s accumulation of wealth, the offshoring of jobs, TARP and other bailouts are due to the actions and inactions of those on Capitol Hill.

 
Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 07:35:06

Bill, have you heard of “loddyists?”

“K-Street?”

Ring any bells?

Wall St. is the heart of this problem.

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 07:47:08

Wall Street’s accumulation of wealth, the offshoring of jobs, TARP and other bailouts are due to the actions and inactions of those on Capitol Hill.

Wrong. All of the above is due to the stupidity and passivity of the American public, especially the electorate that maintains a co-opted political class in power.

 
Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 08:09:12

“Bill, have you heard of “loddyists?”

No.

 
Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 08:09:35

All of the above is due to the stupidity and passivity of the American public ??

Most of the American Public are fighting for there very livelihood…So, I do not think they are necessarily stupid or passive and I would agree with Bill…

I think Michael Lewis has it right…Real significant change will “only come” through crisis…Thats what I am planning for….

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 09:22:42

Fighting for your livelihood doesn’t preclude you from supporting candidates who aren’t selling you down the river.

 
Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 10:21:38

Lobbyists.

 
Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 10:57:14

“Because until pressure is put on those who are at the heart of all this, nothing is going to change. ”

K Street IS the heart of this. This is something that #occupy understands far better than you.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 11:16:46

Thats what I am planning for….

Hey, eyes thoughts eyes recognized those footprint pattern$ on the path ahead of mees… ;-)

 
 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 07:05:54

The movement known as “Occupy Wall Street” has spread far beyond its starting point in lower Manhattan. CBS News correspondent Bigad Shaban reports that it now has offshoots in 25 cities nationwide, and political leaders from both sides are weighing in.

As this snowball continues to grow we’ll see more and more attacks on it from the corporate owned MSM as the 1%’ers start to worry in earnest. At first the MSM ignored the protesters, now they’re saying they don’t have a coherent message. We’ll see what the MSM’s next step will be. I predict that we’ll start seeing plenty of unfavorable stories about the movemet, not too vicious, but they will be potrayed in an unfavirable light.

It’s probable that few cubicle dwellers will join in as they still have something to lose. But the working poor (the 3 part time jobs and still doesn’t make more than $500 a week crowd) might just get involved, not to mention the near 20% unemployed (U6 or shadowstats rate).

I think that the next few weeks are critical. Either the movement will fizzle out or it will begin to grow exponentially.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 05:01:39

So much for the canard of “pitting Americans against Americans.”

Occupy Wall Street protests have now spread to Ireland
Occupy Dame Street in city surrounds Central Bank building
By JOHN O’BRIEN,
IrishCentral.com Contributor
Published Monday, October 10, 2011, 7:08 AM
Updated Monday, October 10, 2011, 7:42 AM

Occupy Dame Street, an Irish protest outside the Central Bank headquarters is gathering momentum as more protesters join outside the center of Dublin location.

The group is based on the ‘Occupy Wall Street” protesters who have demonstrated in several American cities and in other countries.

The group says its mission is to end corruption in Irish life and banish the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank out of Irish affairs.

The group of a hundred or so set up camps outside the imposing bank building right across from Trinity College.

They are also demanding the return of Irish oil and gas rights of the West Coast of Ireland.

Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 05:47:42

It would be pretty funny if the residents of Iceland started a protest. Imagine typing in “#occupyreykjavíc.” But then again, Iceland already achieved what #occupy is aiming for.

Comment by Steve J
2011-10-10 12:01:12

Iceland is looking smarter and smarter every day.

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Comment by The_Overdog
2011-10-10 07:31:21

“Occcupy Dame Street” sounds like a bachelor party/20 something fratboy horndog game plan.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 05:06:02

Occupy Wall Street protesters picked the wrong target
11:00 a.m. EDT, October 7, 2011

I found the recent letter regarding the New York City protesters by Max Obuszewski amusing (”Wall Street protests highlight police brutality,” Oct. 6). The kids protesting on Wall Street have spunk. Unfortunately, they’re protesting in the wrong place. The problem stems from Washington, not New York.

Wall Street plays by the rules it’s given (other than those financiers who land in jail), and Washington sets the rules. The Clinton administration allowed Fannie and Freddie to de-leverage from 8-1 to 40-1, the Bush administration doubled down on the bubble and did nothing about the bundled sub-prime loans until it was too late, and the Obama administration has done nothing tangible to prevent it from happening again.

Those kids shouldn’t blame Wall Street for trying to get as much as they can under the rules Washington sets down. If they want an explanation about getting as much as you can under the current rules, they could just turn to the union forces that have joined them in protest and the union cops beating them up for their perspective. Everybody tries to get as much as they can. That’s human nature. If you want to change how much someone can get legally, you have to change the law. If they want to do that, then they need to make the three hour trip down Interstate 95 and protest in front of Congress and the White House.

Comment by polly
2011-10-10 05:38:12

Ha. Ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha.

He thinks you can drive from New York to DC in three hours. Now that is funny.

Comment by michael
2011-10-10 06:16:03

i’ve done it…once in about 20 or 30 tries.

made it to southampton ny in 5.5 on that one trip…best time ever.

worst time was 11 hours to eastern long island…delaware can suck it!

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Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 05:51:01

Those kids shouldn’t blame Wall Street for trying to get as much as they can under the rules Washington sets down.

Now they’re “kids?” And apparently he forgot that Wall Street lobbyists paid Washington to set those rules so that Wall Street could exploit them, not the other way around. As an astute HBBer said, why #occupy the servants’ quarters?

Comment by Blue Skye
2011-10-10 08:13:20

You called me “astute”!

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Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 08:53:39

The rules Washington sets down, are why Wall Street owns the government.

It’s cheaper to buy off the government and media, than it is to buy off 200 million voters.

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Comment by Carl Morris
2011-10-10 10:00:29

Wall Street plays by the rules it’s given (other than those financiers who land in jail), and Washington sets the rules.

Seems like there are two sections of Wall Street…perhaps a 99% group and a 1% group. I think what you said is true for the 99%. But the 1% owns Washington. Those are the real targets.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 05:35:10

Don’t mistake Occupy Wall Street for Team Obama
Published On Fri Oct 07 2011
By Mitch Potter Washington Bureau

Protesters, including one wearing a Hillary Clinton mask, take part in a demonstration in Freedom Plaza in Washington on Friday as part of Occupy D.C. activities.
Jacquelyn Martin/AP Image

NEW YORK—The mushrooming Occupy Wall Street protests, now on the verge of spreading to more than 1,000 cities and towns across the U.S. and beyond, may have come of age this week.

But the second most interesting number (apart from the anger-tracking figures updated at OccupyTogether.org) is 38 per cent — President Barack Obama’s approval rating, according to the latest Gallup survey.

Occupation up, Obama down. It’s an equation the White House is desperate to change, as the Democratic machine grapples with how best to harness the progressive populist uprising to generate electoral energy for November 2012.

The rolling fury that took hold of lower Manhattan’s Zuccotti Park three weeks ago remains audaciously leaderless. But it is also changing quickly, as new blood arrives to bolster the cause, in ways that are dismaying to Occupy Wall Street’s earliest adopters.

On Wednesday, it was the arrival of Big Labour that seized the headlines, as unionists marched in the thousands through Manhattan’s financial district. But in the encampment that night — and truly, the hardcore actually sleeping on these paving stones comprise 140 characters or less — fear of co-optation was rampant.

The Occupy Wall Street hardcore sees itself as bigger than partisan politics. And the disappointment with Obama — after what they view as a series of business-friendly surrenders on financial regulation, the environment, budgets and even health-care reform — borders on contempt.

But they don’t own Occupy Wall Street anymore. That was evident Thursday morning, when the encampment began to fill with even more arrivals. And some of the new faces showing up in Zuccotti seem more representative of the working-class angst gripping the country.

Take Sean Finnerty, for example, a 26-year-old Alaskan who came down on a break from his job in the oilfields. He was a bundle of energy Thursday, taking stock — and then taking charge.

“What the hell is this doing here?” asked Finnerty, pointing to an anti-Wall Street leaflet that reeked of anti-Semitism, replete with a hand-drawn swastika.

“This is sick. I’m taking it down. Anybody who thinks they can defend this can talk to me,” said Finnerty as he tore the hate-filled paper to shreds.

Finnerty told the Star he arrived the night before. But he admitted he got “the cold shoulder” from many of the young radicals in the square.

“I guess I don’t have the right tattoos or haircut for some of them,” he said. “But I don’t care. I’ll sleep beside them because the cause is right.

“This thing is still in its infancy. And they need working people like me for it to really take off.”

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 06:19:31

““This is sick. I’m taking it down. Anybody who thinks they can defend this can talk to me,” said Finnerty as he tore the hate-filled paper to shreds.”

“This thing is still in its infancy. And they need working people like me for it to really take off.”

Up with Finnerty!

Comment by goon squad
2011-10-10 07:04:25

The squad was in DC in April 2002 when a protest against the World Bank / IMF was occurring the same day as a march for Palestinean civil rights, some nazi themes on the signs of the attendees.

This was only 2-1/2 years after the “Battle of Seattle”, and many of the people there seemed like the protest-anything-anywhere trust-fund set more interested in provoking the police into violence and then videotaping it.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 05:39:28

Time to occupy our financial hubs?
David Llewellyn-Smith
October 10, 2011 - 6:22PM

At first glance, Occupy Wall Street seems like a US-only issues. Australians, though, should consider what needs to be fixed here. Photo: AP

For most Australians, the growing US protest, Occupy Wall Street, will have little immediate resonance. There are calls for similar anti-capitalist demonstrations on this side of the Pacific, with prominent financial centres, such as Sydney’s Martin Place among the planned targets.

What, as they say, is in it for us?

Here, meanwhile, is how prominent US columnist Paul Krugman sums up what’s going on in the US:

There’s something happening here. What it is ain’t exactly clear, but we may, at long last, be seeing the rise of a popular movement that, unlike the Tea Party, is angry at the right people.

When the Occupy Wall Street protests began three weeks ago, most news organisations were derisive if they deigned to mention the events at all. For example, nine days into the protests, National Public Radio had provided no coverage whatsoever.

It is, therefore, a testament to the passion of those involved that the protests not only continued but grew - eventually becoming too big to ignore. With unions and a growing number of Democrats now expressing at least qualified support for the protesters, Occupy Wall Street is starting to look like an important event that might even be seen as a turning point.

Many Australians will feel a degree of support for the protesters.

From a distance, our American cousins have quite obviously been put to the sword by Wall Street. And the failure of the Bush and Obama administrations to bring justice to the American people in the wake of the Wall Street debacle that culminated in the Global Financial Crisis must be quite a burden for the nation.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 06:19:49

there’s something happinin here
what it is aint exactly clear
theres a man with a gun over there
tellin me i got to beware

i think it’s time we stop, children
what’s that sound
everybody look what’s goin down

there’s battle lines being drawn
nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong
young people speakin there minds
getting so much resistance far behind

it’s time we stop,
hey what’s that sound
everybody look what’s goin down

what a field day for the heat
a thousand people in the street
singing songs that they’re carrying signs
mostly say hurray for our side

it’s time we stop,
hey what’s that sound
everybody look what’s goin down

Par-a-noia strikes deep
into your life it will creep
it starts when your always afraid
step out of line the man come and take you away

we better stop
hey what’s that sound
everybody look what’s going down

– Buffalo Springfield

 
 
Comment by goon squad
2011-10-10 05:47:34

From Politico:

Al Sharpton to broadcast from Occupy Wall Street protests

“The Rev. Al Sharpton will broadcast his nationally syndicated radio show from the Occupy Wall Street protests in New York City on Monday, according to reports.

Sharpton will air his show live from Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan, where the demonstrations have entered their 24th day”

Um, Al, please stay away. There’s no shakedown money in this for you!

Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 05:55:23

Ditto. Sharpton just provides a target for the Wall Streeters to attack. I hope the #occupy people just run away and let Sharpton talk by himself.

Comment by Hard Rain
2011-10-10 06:42:48

+1

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Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 07:37:45

I for one welcome the comments of Cantor, Cain, and the plutocrats other Establishment Republican muppets. They are showing their true colors and true masters as never before. People with a dawning awareness of what crony capitalism has done to this country will respond to the segment of the OWS protesters who are animated by legitimate and reasonable concerns about their future, and the country’s, as long as unchecked Wall Street swindles and subversion of the political process is allowed to continue. The same people, if they have one brain cell talking to another, will also realize the massive culpability of Obama, Pelosi, and all the other Establishment Lib-Dems trying to claim the OWS movement as their own, and hold them accountable.

Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:05:58

“The same people, if they have one brain cell talking to another, will also realize the massive culpability of Obama, Pelosi, and all the other Establishment Lib-Dems trying to claim the OWS movement as their own, and hold them accountable.”

It’s a little late to try to jump in front of the parade. It’s not too late to begin doing the things they should have been doing all along. Obama should fire Eric Holder and bring in an AG that’s serious about prosecuting financial crimes. It’s hard to view Holder as any better than the worst of the Republican Attorneys General since Reagan.

And in all of this, where are the blue dogs? Have they been willing to say anything against their corporate masters?

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 08:10:34

Obama should fire Eric Holder? Obama, who made Goldman Sachs (his #2 contributor) the 4th branch of goverment, is not about to go after Wall Street. Not now, not ever. Neither will the Establishment Republicans.

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Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 11:03:59

As the Prof says, as much as you dislike Obama, it is better to have a second term President. A second-termer at least has the option of double crossing Wall Street. A first-termer, especially the current crop of candidates, will just give us four more years.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 17:33:59

The march to occupy the Civic Center goes all over the place
By Logan Jenkins, Columnist - North County
Monday, October 10, 2011 at 4:14 p.m.
The occupy protest in San Diego on Friday.
Nelvin C. Cepeda

I belong to no organized party,” Will Rogers famously said. “I am a Democrat.”

As Occupy Wall Street protests have sprung up in financial centers, including San Diego, the disorganization on the left side of the political spectrum appears to be the movement’s main organizing principle.

In contrast, when the right-wing tea party erupted in the spring of 2009, the movement was focused like a laser rifle on the “socialist” takeover of the debt-ridden United States. Sensing a ticket to ride back to power, GOP leaders leapt on the bandwagon.

In New York, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich addressed one of the scores of tea party gatherings on Tax Day. South Carolina Gov. Mark Stafford rallied the volunteers. Fox News pumped up the populist rebellion.

“All you have to be is a mildly awake Republican candidate for office to get front of that parade,” intoned Grover Norquist, a lobbyist who’s exacted lifelong anti-tax pledges from most GOP members of Congress.

The fledgling Occupy Wall Street movement, barely a month old, is the liberal mirror image of the tea party. It appears to have the same grass-roots passion, but, to put it mildly, it’s all over the place. Democratic leaders are wary that it might run off the rails.

Among the hundreds of signs at the San Diego march on Friday evening, the one that summed up the policy-free outcry was one vulgarly concise message that I cannot reproduce without a Latinate euphemism: “Un(copulate) the World.”

A worthy goal, I suppose, but how do you perform it?

Comment by Carl Morris
2011-10-10 17:39:35

Democratic leaders are wary that it might run off the rails threaten the system that they benefit from.

 
 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-10-10 04:02:38

Comment by scdave
2011-10-09 08:57:45
with well dressed firemen standing in line at Publix with there $200k fire ride in the lot, 2 days on 3 days off $100k salaries ??

Everybody please sit down for this one;

Just went to a wedding a few weeks ago…My youngest son was the best man for this firefighter…He is a 32 year old and has been on the force for 4 years…He knocks down around 130k..

But that’s nutten….He is now on his honeymoon…Through taking some paid vacation days and some shift swapping, he has 37 straight days off with pay…Life is good..

Inmates could staff fire stations in Ga. county

The Associated Press
Posted: 6:36 a.m. Monday, Oct. 10, 2011

ST MARYS, Ga. — Camden County officials are considering a money-saving program that would put inmates in fire stations.

The Florida Times-Union reports (http://bit.ly/nZbutT) that the program would put two inmates in each of three existing firehouses in the south Georgia county.

Officials say the inmates would respond to all emergencies — including residential fires — alongside traditional firefighters.

The inmates would have no guard, but would be monitored by a surveillance system and by the traditional firefighters, who would undergo training to guard the inmates. Authorities say one traditional firefighter with correctional training can supervise up to three inmates.

Authorities say the inmate firefighter program could save the county more than $500,000 a year by some estimates. Inmates charged with crimes such as drug offenses and thefts would be eligible.

Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:11:11

While I think one can reasonably question the compensation of firefighters in some areas, that Georgia plan looks like a really bad idea.

The focus of firefighters should be on fighting fires, not on babysitting inmates because Georgia puts too many people in jail and doesn’t want to pay for fire protection.

 
Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 08:15:51

You can’t fix that kind of stupid.

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 09:00:57

I can see the headlines now……

“Crash/fire victims robbed while unconcious; county officials surprised, didn’t see it coming….”

Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 10:32:12

Note to self: never move to Georgia. Or anywhere in the deep south for that matter.

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Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 08:20:01

“Camden County officials are considering a money-saving program that would put inmates in fire stations.”

Hell why not. All three branches of government are already using this program apparently.

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 09:03:54

How about a money saving program that puts inmates on city/county commissions?

Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 11:44:45

Aren’t there enough crooks in public office?

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Comment by aNYCdj
2011-10-10 10:31:54

How about teaching inmates to read, write and speak ENGLISH in front of a parole board for any kind of early or work release.

Give em the WSJ or the NYT….read that you ebonics spewin criminal..

 
 
Comment by Steve J
2011-10-10 12:08:07

There was a chemical plant fire in Hillsboro Texas last week. A neighboring small town sent over their $1.5 million fire truck which they parked next to the plant. It promptly caught on fire and burned up.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2011-10-10 12:56:05

Broken window theory in action.

Comment by drumminj
2011-10-10 14:58:51

Broken window theory in action.

or just stupid firefighters who don’t know how to size up the situation w.r.t. hazmat before charging in.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:14:13

October bailout season is in full swing over in the euro zone.

Dexia gets new bailout with €4bn Belgian deal

• Belgian arm bought by country’s government
• Belgium, France and Luxembourg in €90bn guarantee
• Belgium warned over credit rating
• Dexia brought down by Greek exposure

Jill Treanor
guardian.co.uk, Monday 10 October 2011 05.17 EDT

Comment by Steve J
2011-10-10 12:16:56

They just passed the “stress” test a few months ago.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 15:25:49

And bailouts are not limited to the euro zone…

The Financial Times
Banks rally after China buys shares
October 10, 2011 11:19 am by Josh Noble

Xinhua reports on Monday:

BEIJING, Oct. 10 (Xinhua) — Central Huijin Investment Ltd, an arm of China’s sovereign wealth fund, bought shares in four major Chinese State-owned banks on the secondary market on Monday, the company told Xinhua.

The four banks include the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (ICBC), Agricultural Bank of China (ABC), Bank of China (BOC) and China Construction Bank (CCB), according to the company.

The move is aimed at supporting the steady operation and development of major financial institutions and stabilizing their stock prices, the company said.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:17:29

Slovak Coalition Seeks Deal to Back Bailout
By Radoslav Tomek - Oct 9, 2011 3:00 PM PT

Slovakia’s ruling coalition will make a final attempt today to bridge differences over the country’s participation in a bailout mechanism for the euro area to avoid a collapse of the government and further delays in shoring up budgets across Europe.

The leaders of four governing parties in the euro region’s second-poorest member will meet to discuss conditions demanded by Freedom and Solidarity, a junior coalition member, in return for its support of the bailout system. Party Chairman Richard Sulik has said repeatedly his lawmakers will reject the related legislation in a vote tomorrow if conditions aren’t met.

“We will negotiate until the last moment to find a solution,” Sulik, who is also parliamentary speaker, said in a debate on television station TA3 yesterday. “If we don’t reach an agreement, we will vote against.”

The euro has lost more than 5 percent in the past month as Europe struggles to contain the debt crisis that’s spread across the continent over the last year from Greece. Slovak approval of enhanced powers of the European Financial Stability Facility, the temporary bailout fund, is crucial for adopting the key element of Europe’s strategy. Malta is the only other country in the 17-member euro bloc that has yet to ratify the measures agreed by European Union leaders in July.

Sulik said his party, known also as SaS, is ready to make unspecified concessions in its demands, which were rejected earlier this week by Prime Minister Iveta Radicova.

Government Wobbles

Without votes from SaS lawmakers, the EFSF package is destined for rejection tomorrow as the two opposition parties have said they won’t support it. This would further deepen the row within the four-party coalition and may lead to a collapse of the government.

Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:19:50

“Without votes from SaS lawmakers, the EFSF package is destined for rejection tomorrow as the two opposition parties have said they won’t support it. This would further deepen the row within the four-party coalition and may lead to a collapse of the government.”

There’s some sense of irony here in that the actions in a small country in central Europe could once again send Europe into chaos, this time financial.

Comment by Steve J
2011-10-10 12:19:15

A very poor country at that.

It will be hard for the citizens to pay the new taxes to send to Greece. Greece should be ashamed.

 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:20:05

Dexia bailout set as wider bank rescue mulled
By Philip Blenkinsop and Robert-Jan Bartunek
BRUSSELS | Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:01pm EDT

(Reuters) - Franco-Belgian bank Dexia was set to be broken up and partly nationalised after being slammed by a funding squeeze in the latest warning sign about the health of Europe’s struggling lenders.

The rescue of Dexia, which has global credit risk exposure of $700 billion — more than twice Greece’s GDP — came as the leaders of French and Germany agreed in a joint press conference that European banks needed to be recapitalised, but papered over differences on how that would happen.

Details of the rescue were not revealed while Dexia’s board met in Brussels to approve the plan, but it will call for the bank’s Belgian retail unit and French municipal finance operations to come under government control.

Dexia was forced to seek state help for the second time in three years after a liquidity crunch hobbled the lender and sent its shares down 42 percent over the past week.

French Prime Minister Francois Fillon, his Belgian counterpart Yves Leterme and Luc Frieden, the finance minister of Luxembourg, where Dexia has a large presence, had found a solution for the stricken Franco-Belgian bank, Leterme’s office said early Sunday afternoon.

“The three governments have agreed to put a proposal to the board which fits completely with the goals of the Belgian government, which means to take over Dexia Bank Belgium, secure it and turn it into a very safe bank,” Leterme said after two hours of talks at Egmont Palace in Brussels — also the site of negotiations for a previous Dexia rescue in 2008.

At stake in the talks is how much each government will have to contribute to help wind down Dexia, a thorny subject given that Belgium and France are already struggling to contain large deficits.

Comment by Hard Rain
2011-10-10 05:41:14

funding squeeze = insolvency

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2011-10-10 07:15:13

I still want to know why solvent banks need to be rescued…again and again and again…

Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:21:10

“I still want to know why solvent banks need to be rescued…again and again and again…”

So they can pay out bigger bonuses to their executives?

 
Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 08:21:35

Because they are banks… and you’re not.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 08:26:55

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

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Comment by Blue Skye
2011-10-10 09:17:53

Perhaps by solvent, they mean evaporating.

 
Comment by Steve J
2011-10-10 12:33:22

Solvent green?

 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:23:02

Europe up a creek with no central bank
Oct 7, 2011 17:32 EDT
James Saft is a Reuters columnist. The opinions expressed are his own

HUNTSVILLE, Ala. – Europe is demonstrating that a sovereign nation without a true central bank is just an uninsured bank, liable to be tipped over by the markets.

While the ECB is a central bank in almost all respects, what it isn’t is a lender of last resort for individual euro zone nations, a role that is expressly ruled out by the European Treaty.

A lender of last resort is what stops a bank run on a solvent institution from bringing it down due to a lack of liquidity. In the case of a nation, a lender of last resort, usually the central bank, can simply print money to satisfy debts in its own currency. And though we’ve all become terribly cynical about the concept of liquidity crises in the past couple of years, not least because so many people in authority have used it as a place to hide when the real issue was solvency (Greece, Lehman Brothers), the fact is that markets take on their own momentum.

Just as no-one viewed euro zone debt as anything other than a safe haven for the currency area’s first decade, now investors are busy driving up the price of even German default insurance.

This is the terrible logic of markets when they view sovereign borrowers as credit risks; it is almost inevitable that they push, and in pushing weaken the un-backstopped borrower and ultimately bring it down. This is a process which needs a circuit breaker, and Europe has no adequate circuit breaker, unlike Britain or the U.S.

“Rather than viewing government bonds as risk-free, safe-haven assets, financial markets now view and trade euro area sovereigns mainly as credit risks. This has very profound consequences for the stability of financial markets,” economist Elga Bartsch of Morgan Stanley wrote in a note to clients.

“For it seems to me that some markets have lost their ability to find a new, stable equilibrium. This is because, instead of moving in sync with the business cycle, government bond yields now move against the cycle, ie, rising in a downturn. This seriously undermines the ability of the government sector to stabilise the economy and the financial sector.”

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:26:47

Are you a good bank, or a bad bank?

Greece activates bailout fund to save Proton Bank
English.news.cn 2011-10-10 17:26:50

ATHENS, Oct. 10 (Xinhua) — Greece activated for first time the newly founded Greek Financial Stability Fund to save Greek Proton Bank, Greek authorities said on Monday.

According to the statements released by the Finance Ministry and the central bank of Greece, Proton Bank, which was founded in 2001 and is listed on the Athens Stock Exchange, will be nationalized, reorganized and renamed into “New Proton Bank.”

The only shareholder in the new entity will be the Greek Financial Stability Fund, which “provides the needed capital adequacy to establish a new “good bank,” said the press release issued by the Finance Ministry.

The Fund was set up last year with a 10-billion-euro (13.54 billion U.S. dollars) capital to support the local banking sector which has been affected, as Greece struggles to contain since 2009 a severe debt crisis that threatens the country with a default and the eurozone with instability.

The old Proton bank, with some 550 employees and 31 branches, had total assets of 3.8 billion euros (5.09 billion dollars) at the end of the first quarter.

“The new bank, free of the deficiencies of the previous bank, is financially sound and will continue normally its operations,” said the statement.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2011-10-10 07:03:28

Proton Bank? There’s something strangely positive about that name.

Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 08:21:56

:)

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:31:29

Leaders ponder funding of £172bn bailout for banks
Published on Monday 10 October 2011 01:11

EUROPEAN leaders will meet this week in an effort to thrash out details of how to fund an expected 200bn euro (£172bn) bailout of Europe’s over-stretched banks.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy will hold discussions over how to deal with the problems of sovereign debt exposure in European banks, brought sharply into focus last week with the collapse of Franco-Belgium lender Dexia.

After its collapse, a new set of bank stress tests are expected to be conducted by the European Banking Authority, a move that analysts say will heap added pressure on stretched balance sheets.

It was reported yesterday that some of Germany’s banks are already preparing to raise billions in new funds from private sources – an option said to be favoured by Chancellor Merkel.

President Sarkozy is said to want French banks to have access to the 440bn euro (£380bn) European Financial Stability Fund, originally set up to finance the rescues of Greece, Portugal and Ireland.

On Thursday, the European Central Bank (ECB) offered new emergency loans to banks to help to steady a eurozone financial system shaken by the deepening debt crisis, and Bank of England governor Sir Mervyn King warned the UK was facing its “most serious financial crisis” ever.

A Treasury spokesman stressed today that instability in the eurozone showed how important it was the Government continued its deficit reduction programme.

It followed calls for a halt to spending cuts to stimulate economic growth and tackle rising unemployment, as it emerged public sector job losses in the UK have been far greater than expected.

“The Government has always said that recovering from a financial crisis with such a large debt overhang would be slow and choppy, but as the instability in the eurozone shows, it is vital that the Government sticks to its deficit reduction plan. This plan is supported by the IMF, OECD and CBI and is essential for sustainable growth, It has helped deliver record low interest rates for families, along with 500,000 private sector jobs created last year.”

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:34:16

Germany and France Say Deal Near to Recapitalize Banks
By LIZ ALDERMAN and JUDY DEMPSEY
Published: October 9, 2011

Acknowledging that Europe’s banks still need billions of euros to cushion against a possible default by Greece, the leaders of Germany and France announced on Sunday that they would have a package of reforms by the time leaders of the Group of 20 nations meet in early November.

“We are determined to do everything necessary to ensure the recapitalization of Europe’s banks,” Chancellor Angela Merkel said in Berlin after meeting with President Nicolas Sarkozy of France.

But beyond promising closer coordination of economic policies for the euro zone, the two leaders declined to provide specifics on how the recapitalization would work, or how much money they would commit. The continued uncertainty could unnerve investors who hoped to see the governments take more decisive action.

The announcement came on the same day that the governments of France, Belgium and Luxembourg agreed to nationalize part of Dexia, Belgium’s biggest bank, infusing it with billions of euros in taxpayer money after it became the first casualty of the Greek sovereign debt crisis. Government officials had raced to prop up Dexia before global financial markets opened on Monday.

Dexia, which had received a bailout in 2008, “is the biggest euro zone bank failure in quite some time,” said Peter Zeihan, vice president of analysis at Stratfor, a geopolitical risk analysis company based in Austin, Tex. “It will force investors and shareholders to take second look at what they thought was stable.”

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-10-10 04:34:49

I agree with some of these people and not with others. This guy looks about as disabled as the 2 Full SS disabled dudes in my last hood that worked on their boats and played football with their kids. 22 years? My 22 years was up 9 years ago I have had multiple injuries and I will be working until I die. Oh well, time to drag my Advil filled @ss out the door because if I don`t work, my kids might be living like people in a Third-World country. Having said that, please throw Angelo Mozzillo and his buddies in jail if you know how.

Voices: Six Wall Street protestersBy Daniel Nasaw
BBC News, Cleveland
7 October 2011 Last updated at 17:30 ET

Michael Parish, 52, disabled and retired Cleveland firefighter

The middle class of this country was built off of what has been demonised now as a ‘public employee’. If it was not for public employees in those positions - teachers, firefighters, police officers, EMS workers - we would be in a Third-World country.

I fought fires, saved lives, protected property for 22 years. I had multiple injuries.

We don’t ask for anything other than our fair share and our fair dues, and to be addressed in this manner from our so-called elected officials is a slap in the face.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15223695 - 68k

Comment by michael
2011-10-10 06:25:06

“please throw Angelo Mozzillo and his buddies in jail if you know how.”

our AG is too busy running guns to Mexico and challenging state positions on illegal immigration to worry about the largest financial corruption in the history of the world.

Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:29:11

“our AG is too busy running guns to Mexico and challenging state positions on illegal immigration to worry about the largest financial corruption in the history of the world.”

He’s busy trying to crack down on medical marijuana too. I feel so much safer now.

 
 
Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 06:26:23

We don’t ask for anything other than our fair share and our fair dues,

Note: “Fair” to this union goon is a $200,000/year pension (tax free) plus $50,000 for the “disability”

There are some cities in which 80% of the retirees are “disabled” - it is such a scam.

Oh - and you better pay your insane property taxes or another union goon with a gun will come and take your house.

Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 06:40:29

lol

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 07:20:34

Note: “Fair” to this union goon is a $200,000/year pension (tax free) plus $50,000 for the “disability”

You keep spouting this BS about 200K pensions. How many cops or firefighters (other than a few big city chiefs) get that kind of pension?

Oh - and you better pay your insane property taxes or another union goon with a gun will come and take your house.

Have you stopped to think about who that “Union goon” really works for? (hint: it’s not the 99%) He’s a mercenary who does the bidding of the 1%. He maintains the order while all the wealth is steadily transferred to the 1%’ers.

You are the guy in the cookie parable my friend, the guy who ignores the billionaire who steals all the cookies while he tells you to watch out for the union guy who wants your cookie.

Comment by AmazingRuss
2011-10-10 09:06:30

There are millions of union goons that want my cookie. Collectively, they are just as big a threat to my cookie as the 1%.

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Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 09:24:00

Get real. As if you have anything another wage earner doesn’t have.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 15:11:23

Collectively, they are just as big a threat to my cookie as the 1%.

Oh please, who is offshoring your job? It’ s not an “overpaid” bus driver. Who’s keeping interest rates near zero while inflation consumes your savings? It’s not a cop or a firefighter.

 
Comment by drumminj
2011-10-10 16:41:15

Oh please, who is offshoring your job? It’ s not an “overpaid” bus driver.

I don’t have a right to a job. however I do arguably have a right to the money I earned in trade for my life and labor. Hopefully other readers here are capable of seeing the distinction.

 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 09:09:44

You gotta remember, he lives in a parallel universe, unrelated to our own.

I tell myself this, in order to stop wasting my time countering his “facts”.

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Comment by MrBubble
2011-10-10 09:10:51

Nice to see the cookie parable (and the Bucket of Crabs) parable gaining traction.

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Comment by Steve J
2011-10-10 12:42:53

He is not too far off.

http://www.pensiontsunami.com/

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Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 08:18:41

“Oh well, time to drag my Advil filled @ss out the door because if I don`t work, my kids might be living like people in a Third-World country. ”

If you aren’t rich, that’s your own fault. You sound like one of those #OWS types.

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 09:15:51

Try Aleve. Works a lot better for back pain.

The ultimate fix for back pain (so I’ve been told) is taking a Oxycodone from the prescription you got after having wisdom teeth pulled, then chasing it with some Sam Adams, then going to bed.

Not recommended on days you need to take a pee test.

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-10-10 17:15:24

“If you aren’t rich, that’s your own fault.”

Yes that is true. It is also true that there are several families besides mine that are greatful to me for helping them to make a lving for the last 20 years. None of us are rich and I would be a lot richer had I not made a decision to take care of these guys who had been with me for years when the wheels came off. So I`m not rich, so my knee, shoulder and elbow hurt. My bills, taxes and guys are all paid. No bailouts or stimulus for us but I am fortunate that we are working. I will sleep well tonight like most because I did the best I could.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 18:01:38

“helping them to make a living for the last 20 years. None of us are rich and I would be a lot richer had I not made a decision to take care of these guys who had been with me for years when the wheels came off”

Looks like you made some bad choices, supporting deadbeats and parasites.

Oh, well. Hard lessons are learned best.

“so my knee, shoulder and elbow hurt… No bailouts or stimulus for us”

Well, at least you’ll be able to retire at 65 and get Social Security. Unless a bunch of propagandists convince everyone that it’s better to take that away than for the wealthy to pay an extra percent or two in taxes.

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Comment by jeff saturday
2011-10-11 05:14:38

“Looks like you made some bad choices, supporting deadbeats and parasites.”

Right again! Paying my deadbeat LLs has been a bad choice. There is nothing I can do about the unemployment tax I have to pay, as far as the guys that WORK for me not so much. They too pay thier bills and taxes while doing the best they can for their families while shockingly staying off the SNAP and HAMP programs while not enlisting in the 99 week army. Of course I do match their SS everyweek but that`s OK because that money is in a lock box right? Oh well, as long as our govt. has the money to guarantee loans for bankrupt solar panel companies that put billionaire investors who donated 1/2 million $ to our president`s campaign in front of us lowly tax payers and the first lady has 10 million $ to vacation with it`s all good. That`s enough for today I gotta be on Ocean Ave. at 8:45 Although my elbow feels better.

 
 
 
 
Comment by cactus
2011-10-10 12:47:04

My 22 years was up 9 years ago I have had multiple injuries and I will be working until I die.”

yea me too I’ll just get let go if I let my injuries slow me down

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:36:26

U.S. Stock Futures Rise on Merkel Bank Pledge
By Nikolaj Gammeltoft and Joanna Ossinger - Oct 10, 2011 3:10 AM PT

U.S. stock futures gained, indicating the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index will extend last week’s rally, after German Chancellor Angela Merkel said European leaders will do “everything necessary” to ensure that banks have adequate capital.

General Electric Co. (GE), the world’s third-biggest supplier of wind turbines, increased 1.4 percent in Germany. Microchip Technology Inc. (MCHP), the maker of programmable semiconductors, jumped 2.3 percent.

S&P 500 futures expiring in December advanced 15.1, or 1.3 percent, to 1,170 at 11:07 a.m. London time. Contracts on the Dow Jones Industrial Average rose 1.3 percent to 11,212.

Merkel joined French President Nicolas Sarkozy to persuade investors they can stamp out the debt crisis roiling global markets. At a joint press conference in Berlin, Sarkozy set a Nov. 3 deadline to devise a plan to recapitalize banks, get Greece on the right track and fix Europe’s economic governance.

“We are focusing on major U.S. equities now, looking past the European stock markets because there’s too much volatility there,” Tim Hartzell, who oversees about $350 million as chief investment officer for Houston-based Sequent Asset Management, said in a telephone interview. “The Fed is still accommodative and we’re entering into an election year, when politicians are usually pulling various levers to make the economy grow.”

Comment by combotechie
2011-10-10 05:33:10

Suck ‘em in today, shake ‘em out tomorrow.

 
Comment by Hard Rain
2011-10-10 05:45:21

At a joint press conference in Berlin, Sarkozy set a Nov. 3 deadline to devise a plan to recapitalize banks, get Greece on the right track and fix Europe’s economic governance.

Produce a cure for cancer, discover the fountain of youth and net the pigs flying from their…

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2011-10-10 07:18:48

This is pledge number what? three? eight? eleven?

Ok Angie, we get it, you’re as good at selling your people down the river as our pols are. Great, come on over and learn the secret handshake.

Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 08:28:39

A relative of a close friend of mine returned from a european vacation recently. He is a CEO of a large credit union. He said the people in Germany are pissed at the bailouts.
Basically Merkel is doing the same thing to them as our PTB are doing to us.
This relative was very pessimistic about our near term future, as in pictures of dead presidents are no bueno.

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 07:42:04

Merkel was able to make this pledge, over the vehement objections of her people, because a flock of Kruggerand-pooping unicorns suddenly appeared and began cavorting on the grounds of the German treasury, leaving glittering precious droppings in their wake.

Or maybe she’s just making more empty and unfulfillable promises. You decide.

Comment by rusty
2011-10-10 09:17:40

Krggerands are from south africa, probably flown in via swallows.

Comment by Carl Morris
2011-10-10 10:13:11

A European or an African swallow?

Sorry, somebody had to say it…

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Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 11:11:03

“A European or an African swallow?”

A classic for sure!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 04:38:20

Realtors Are Liars®

Comment by CarrieAnn
2011-10-10 13:00:02

One of my best friends just informed me this weekend she’s thinking of becoming a realtor.

I think I near bit through my tongue trying not to react.

Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 16:18:03

I’d have entertained that conversation just to get the word out that housing sales are at 15 year lows and falling.

 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:39:01

Stagnant economy biggest factor as foreclosures pile up
6:00 AM, Oct. 9, 2011
Written by Alex Morrell
Green Bay Press-Gazette

After a respite in late 2010 and early this year, foreclosures again are surging, and real estate experts don’t expect the numbers to improve in coming months.

With 528 foreclosures through September, Brown County is on pace to reach more than 700 foreclosures by the end of the year, eclipsing the 2010 total of 649. They have gone up every year since 2006, when there were 346 foreclosures in the county.

Experts say a lull — created in part by banking moratoriums on foreclosures and government assistance programs — is over and damage may worsen as the economy and job growth show no signs of revival.

Even if they stall (a foreclosure) for a time period or put more time on it for a little while, eventually it’s probably going to hit the point where it has to go through the whole process,” said Greg Dallaire, owner of Dallaire Realty and a real estate broker in the Green Bay area for six years.

And the end isn’t in sight, Dallaire said.

We’ve got an insane amount of actual foreclosure properties coming down the pipeline,” said Dallaire, who sells foreclosed properties, primarily to investors and first-time homebuyers.

For the last three months, I’ve definitely seen an upturn in activity. … Were starting to see it come back to reality.

Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 07:29:30

Bofa has been foreclosing on up to 30 a day here after over a year with not a single trustees sale. 500 more to go this year/early next.
Thing is they are really doing it for real; not some date to be moved again and again. Something to do with their 8.5 billion $$ settlement; that they would move in on the deadbeats.

Wonder how long till we gotta move seeing how my wifes home was finally sold last week?? Victim

We have a line on a sweet rental; if that does not work; storage unit and travel trailer here we come!

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 08:24:43

Bofa has been foreclosing on up to 30 a day here after over a year with not a single trustees sale.

Sounds like the days of 2+ years free rent might be coming to an end.

Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 10:59:50

And to think we only got 20 months!!
Thinking about leaving(slightly broken, heavy, requires 220 wiring, and slightly expensive to maintain) the hot tub behind.

Don’t know if the 2k worth of window coverings, which we have loved, are worth taking with us. Thinking they are good for the windows they were made for and not much else.
Certainly don’t want to lug around shit that will be useless, even if it is valuable to the next owner.

Nor would taking built in stuff be appropos. Leaving the (broken) oven, the (broken) hot water heater. And the dishwasher, fireplace, ceiling fans, doors w/ doorknobs and the built in microwave. I have seen foreclosures that had all that stuff sold and gone.

Not going there, but then we don’t think of ourselves as victims while admitting to being opportunistic rolling about in the financial grave we have dug for ourselves while the bank sorts.

My friend, who is something of a jinx(we refused to take him fishing with us as lads), a real slow decision maker and a real harbinger of doom, bought in 2007. We knew it was over then. He backed out of a deal and a quick 100k in equity gains in 2005, due to a crack on the garage floor. He sold 300k worth of stocks (gift from father from a start up company) right after the tech collapse for 30k. When they put him on the foreclosure sale docket we knew the delays were over and it was time to start packing.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 17:39:46

“…a real slow decision maker and a real harbinger of doom, bought in 2007. We knew it was over then. He backed out of a deal and a quick 100k in equity gains in 2005, due to a crack on the garage floor. He sold 300k worth of stocks (gift from father from a start up company) right after the tech collapse for 30k. When they put him on the foreclosure sale docket we knew the delays were over and it was time to start packing.”

ROFLMAO!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:42:06

Atlanta Business News 5:04 a.m. Monday, October 10, 2011

Metro Atlanta foreclosures up again
By Christopher Quinn
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

There were 8,845 foreclosure notices in the metro Atlanta area in October, up 16 percent from September’s 7,634, according to Equity Depot of Kennesaw.

That follows the up-and-down movement of the notices over the last seven months and reflects what is going on in the economy, said Barry Bramlett, the president of the number crunching firm.

Foreclosure notices are the first step in the process but do not always lead to a repossession. Property buyers can avoid foreclosure by paying loans or negotiating new deals with banks or lenders.

Bramlett said some of the businesses that one might expect a slow economy to affect are showing strains.

One example that showed up in Equity Depot’s numbers were notices for a $175 million blanket loan that secures 19 separate Jameson Inns in Georgia. The W Hotel in Buckhead on Peachtree Street has been advertised for several months on a $36.5 million deed, Bramlett said.

“The economic affect on [hotels and motels], gas stations, truck stops, et cetera is very evident. Don’t expect much of this to change until economic conditions do,” he said.

Among residential properties, about 70 percent of notices have run in a prior period, the numbers say.

“This indicates serious delinquencies remain very high,” Bramlett said.

“There’s no way to know how many new properties are becoming delinquent based on foreclosure notices here,” he said. “It may mean that lenders are simply running notices on the most serious delinquencies. I know [Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac] had instituted some one-year moratoriums for the unemployed. There may be too many factors to really know anymore. Delinquency rates on all mortgages, based on Mortgage Bankers Association figures, have minimally come down this year but are still very, very high.”

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:43:20

R.I. homeowners ignoring effort to help prevent foreclosures
01:00 AM EDT on Sunday, October 9, 2011
By Christine Dunn
Journal Staff Writer

PROVIDENCE –– Efforts by three Rhode Island cities to ease the impact of the foreclosure crisis by requiring lenders to attempt mediation before proceeding with a foreclosure have helped only a small percentage of homeowners in trouble.

According to a report from Rhode Island Housing, which tabulated results from Providence, Cranston and Warwick through Aug. 31, many of the 4,676 homeowners targeted for assistance did not respond to letters offering help in negotiating with their lenders.

In 2,296 cases, certificates were issued to lenders allowing them to proceed with foreclosure because there was no response from the homeowner. In 1,477 cases, Rhode Island Housing was still in the initial stages of trying to contact the owners.

Sometimes, advocates follow up by going to a house to personally contact an owner, only to find they have left, according to Richard Godfrey, executive director of Rhode Island Housing.

“A lot of people aren’t putting up a fight,” Godfrey said.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2011-10-10 07:20:52

Maybe because it’s better to hold on to a job than to try to hold on to a house?

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:45:03

Plan falls short
Feds fail to dispense foreclosure aid
MONDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2011

The federal government had good intentions to help unemployed homeowners escape foreclosure, but fell short on executing the plan.

The feds disbursed only $432 million of $1 billion designated for the Emergency Homeowners’ Loan Program because time ran out.

The program was supposed to provide forgivable loans up to $50,000 to temporarily assist unemployed or underemployed people in 32 states who were facing potential foreclosure. The HUD loans are to be forgiven if homeowners retain their home for five years.

Some 100,000 people applied. The government sought to help up to 30,000 people.

But only 11,832 were conditionally approved, according to USA Today.

Meanwhile, the money that was not used for the program will go back to the Treasury.

What happened?

Comment by towncryer
2011-10-10 15:52:30

I’d be interested in who got approved and why. Is this another buy votes program from Ohbama? And what is Treasury doing with the money?

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:48:06

THE OUTLOOK
OCTOBER 10, 2011

U.S. Gambles With Mortgage Retreat
By NICK TIMIRAOS

Three years after virtually nationalizing the U.S. mortgage market, the government has embarked on a pullback to see whether private industry picks up the slack.

Some people in the housing industry worry that Washington’s move will cause fresh pain in many regions where demand has yet to recover amid the sluggish economy.

At issue are the loan limits that Congress expanded in 2008, allowing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to buy mortgages that exceeded the national cap of $417,000.

When the mortgage market melted down four years ago and sent private mortgage investors fleeing, interest rates rose sharply on “jumbo” mortgages—those too large for backing by Fannie, Freddie or agencies such as the Federal Housing Administration. That accelerated home-price declines in high-end markets throughout California and the Northeast, where many pricey homes couldn’t be bought with a government-backed loan.

To stem the fallout in prices, Congress raised the loan caps to as high as $729,750 in markets such as Los Angeles and New York. It then passed a series of one-year extensions to keep the higher limits in place. But this year, Congress and the Obama administration opted against an extension.

As a result, the limits in hundreds of counties fell by 10% or more on Oct. 1. For loans backed by Fannie and Freddie, the limits declined to between $417,000 and $625,500 in about 200 counties.

More worrisome to real-estate agents are declines in the FHA limits, which fell to between $271,050 and $625,500 in 600 counties. Those changes are causing heartburn because the FHA allows buyers to make down payments of just 3.5%, and it has financed as many as half of all home purchases in recent quarters.

Policy makers allowed the limits to fall because they want private companies to hold more mortgage risk, and dialing down loan limits is one way to carve out space for those investors. Fannie, Freddie, and the FHA currently back nine in 10 new mortgages. Taxpayers already are on the hook for $141 billion in losses at Fannie and Freddie, and the FHA’s reserves have plunged to razor-thin levels.

Mortgages that don’t qualify for government backing typically have higher borrowing costs, including interest rates around 0.75 percentage point above conforming loans. Mortgage rates currently are very low, but jumbo loans also require bigger down payments—at least 20%—and can have tougher qualification rules.

“The net-net here is that the available pool of credit for housing is shrinking. Prices will have to decline,” said Christopher Whalen, co-founder of risk-management consultant Institutional Risk Analytics.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2011-10-10 14:38:58

Here’s a 2009 interest rate reset chart. I think it’s obvious what they were doing…..staving off the explosion of Option Arm, Alt-A and unsecuritized ARM rate resets that were supposed to happen through 2012.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/ShQKBEyAORI/AAAAAAAAFTM/03RNGrH9sEA/s1600-h/CreditSuisseResetMarch09.jpg

Every mortgage holder that was in danger in 2009 when this chart was created hopefully was able to refi, sell, modify or be counted as a ready to default FB by this point or by next spring when the numbers fall off.

Now that they have an idea of what they’re dealing with after culling the herd as best they could, I imagine Plan B is coming.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:51:34

Published: Oct. 9, 2011 3:24 p.m.
Mortgage insurance can be pricey
By MAURINE POOL / THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER

Randy Johnson, president of Independence Mortgage Co. in Newport Beach, author of “How to Save Thousands of Dollars on Your Home Mortgage” and a mortgage broker since 1983, answers questions…

Q. Is there a set rate at which PMI is calculated? I am working with the banker on my mortgage application. I am first-time home buyer applying for FHA loan with 3.5 percent down to purchase my first home in New York state. I was told that my PMI on $350,000 home would be around $350 (give or take) a month. Based on everything that I was able to research, I concluded that he is trying to rip me off by $100/month at the minimum.

A. Actually PMI is terminology used for insurance on non-FHA loans. There is still insurance for FHA loans but it’s a little different. There are two parts to FHA insurance. There is an upfront premium of 1 percent of the loan amount. This was reduced from 1.5 percent previously. You don’t have to pay cash for that as it is added to the loan amount. In addition there is a Monthly Insurance Premium, MIP, that is probably what you are talking about. It’s now 1.15 percent per year, increased by 0.25 percent in April from 0.8 percent previously. If you were using the previous numbers instead of current numbers, it would look as if you were getting ripped off. Much more information at http://www.hud.gov that I suggest you study.

 
Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 04:51:47

Today’s Houses:

House 1: Seafoam dream.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3405-Norbeck-Rd-Silver-Spring-MD-20906/37200338_zpid/#{scid=hdp-site-map-list-photos}

1995 6/3 3800 sq ft on 0.43 acre. Giant kitchen. Vaulted ceilings. Seems like a very good house for entertaining, but it’s a little weird for me. The paint color (for you males, that bluish green is “seafoam”) is pretty, but for the entire house? Good large well-kept backyard with a large deck.

Jan 2002: Zestimated $365K
Dec 2004: Sold $560K
Oct 2011: Listed $575K <—- they’ll never get this. $400K, simply because of the huge size and the big lot.

House 2: The 60’s post-modern

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/13509-Collingwood-Ter-Silver-Spring-MD-20904/37134701_zpid/#{scid=hdp-site-map-list-address}

1965 3/2 contemporary 0.25 acre. This was built in 1965, and looks it. That staircase downstairs is squished. But I kinda like the layout, and it’s well kept. Cutie-pie kitchen. The back yard is good only for the deck.

Apr 2002: Zestimated $240K
Jun 2006: Zesitmated $460K
Oct 2011: Listed $300K <— a little high.

All the houses on Zillow seem to listed at 2004-era wishing prices. They won’t get those prices.

Comment by Martin
2011-10-10 05:33:18

Are DC metro area prices finally falling? The last I checked on TH in North Potomac, Gaithersburg, Rockville area, they were all prices like 400K or higher for 1300 sq. ft. homes built in the 1990s. I think the slowdown in Govt. spending can only stop the nonsense going on in DC metro area. The prices there seems to have dropped onl 10-15% and not 50-60% unlike many parts of the country.

Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 06:15:04

House prices are sort-of falling. Prices doubled between 2002 and 2005, and now they are down to about the halfway-mark in-between. I’ve seen a few houses on Zillow which were priced at 2002 pricing. If they are livable condition, they go fast.

However, the “recently sold” houses on Zillow tell a different story. Listing prices are almost always near the Zestimate, but the actual sale prices are 30% lower. For example, IMO a fair price for the Seafoam house is around $395-410K. That’s a 10% rise from 2002, and a 30% drop from the high.

The DC market is heavily local. New houses, condos, outer suburbs (new) and Northern Virginia all went very bubble. I do expect 40% drops there eventually. Inner Montgomery County is where the stable jobs still are: non-defense agencies and support contractors. The houses are older and stable too. I don’t expect as much of a fall here. Prince Georges County (southeast) is still a hood and barely bubbled.

Comment by michael
2011-10-10 06:29:46

i think that what is happening in DC is what the bernanke wishes would happen in the rest of the country.

his free money policy is working…at least in the northern va area.

prices did drop (a little) but appear to be stabilzing IMHO…not growing at 20% a year…but just stable.

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Comment by Martin
2011-10-10 07:11:48

The TH I saw rent for $1500 a month and prices are $350-400K. Doesn’t make financial sense to me.

I hope it corrects soon. Too many federal contractors raking in $150 per hour. And the spillover affect of those money spending to local economy.

 
 
 
Comment by Anon In DC
2011-10-10 10:28:42

Hi. If I had to bet my last red cent I predict a Republican Senate & House next January and real Fed spend cuts rather than cuts in the rate of increase. DC housing prices will get a dose of reality.

Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 11:26:33

I’d take you up on that, since the Dems will be in charge of the Senate next January. Elections aren’t till 2012.

That said, if that debt ceiling is unsuccessful, that will trigger 10% in Pentagon spending. That may or may not crash housing, but I predict that this will only affect Northern Virginia. Montgomery Co — not much military here — is selling at 2001-2002 prices, which was before the hiring and defense bubble.

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Comment by polly
2011-10-10 12:59:10

Very close in/high end MoCo hasn’t fallen as far. We still might (emphasis on might) get to join the party (take a serious hair cut), but I’m not holding my breath. And Walter Reed just moved into the Naval Medical Center, but I don’t think that medical care for the recently brought home is where the cuts will be. They are going to have to cut weapons/hardware programs to do that 10%. I agree with Oxide that VA will take a hit.

 
 
Comment by Anon In DC
2011-10-10 13:13:43

I meant January 2013 :)

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Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 08:34:40

The seafoam is hideous. More proof that money can’t buy class or taste.

 
Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 08:37:05

Somebody must have got a deal on the Seafoam paint.

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 09:03:27

I wouldn’t offer a nickel for either one of those bastards.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 12:05:13

Seafoam green house screwed up what could have been a very functional galley kitchen by placing the elements of the work triangle (fridge, oven, sink) too far apart (should be no more than 25 total feet in the legs of the triangle, with no interrupted lines- eg no island in the middle).

It’s amazing how few kitchens are designed with this standard in mind, although it is widely considered the most functional layout.

 
Comment by Awaiting
2011-10-10 13:47:19

I liked house # 1, but it’s supersized. I prefer a more formal floor plans. Smaller, more traditional is more homey. “Seafoam” was over done, I agree oxide. At least the home had continuity.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 04:55:06

Why would a prospective buyer care if a seller is wealthy or not? It’s not as though there are not thousands of other homes currently on the market from which to choose if a stubborn seller won’t accept a lowball offer.

Ask The Agent: Watch what you’re advertising
October 8th, 2011, 12:00 pm
posted by J. GALLEGO

Leslie Sargent Eskildsen is a Realtor with Realty One Group in Mission Viejo. She blogs about what she thinks homebuyers and sellers need to hear about, without — as she puts it — any sugar coating. You can check out her blog at What Agents Fear Telling You.

While your house is on the market, remove all the flashing billboards announcing to buyers that you have more money than Bill Gates and Warren Buffett combined. Because those billboards tell buyers that for you, money is no object and you may actually accept a low ball offer just to wash your hands of your house so you can move on to the next mansion.

What’s that? You don’t have any flashing billboards in your home? That’s what you think. See if any of these ring a bell:

The framed photo of you on your luxury yacht moored off the coast of a sunny Greek island surrounded by lots of smiling sunbathers hoisting champagne classes;

The photo of you courtside at the Lakers game, Jack Nicholson on one side of you and Kobe on the other – while Kobe and Jack sign the Jersey hanging in the frame next to this photo;

The shoe racks in your master closet stacked neatly with all 30 pairs of Jimmy Choos in order of color and season;

The Aston Martin V12 Vantage in the garage parked next to the Rolls Royce Ghost;

The wine cellar full of neatly racked bottles and stacked to the rafters with unopened cases from Silver Oak, Neal, Nickle & Nickle, and Pine Ridge;

And the humidor chock full of Cohiba Esplendidos.

See if you have anything at all in your home that screams “I’m rich” – you might think about packing it or moving it to your summer home for the winter you’re on the market.

Even in Newport Beach, Shady Canyon, and Nellie Gail, there are some things you may want to keep to yourself. Don’t give buyers any more ammo than they already have to come at you with an offer you may have to laugh at to keep from crying.

Comment by Realtors Are Liars®
2011-10-10 06:42:59

More evidence the reaItors are the dumbest most clueless people on the planet.

 
Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:38:24

And supposedly lowball offers couldn’t possibly have anything to do with ridiculously high asking/wishing prices?

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 09:27:22

Spot on, Greg. So many sellers are clueless about where the market went after 2006. No asking price should be taken at face value, as many reflect extreme seller denial over the popped housing bubble.

Comment by Awaiting
2011-10-10 15:09:21

Add REO Listing Agents to clueless and in denial. What is a BPO, other than a dream price. Plus in Ca., REO’s are exempt from the Transfer Disclosure Statement, so if your inspector misses something your sol. You don’t have any legal recourse. That’s what makes us nervous. In a regular sale, you can at least get a mediator and possible reimbursement. REO’s are scary.

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 10:20:07

“Even in Newport Beach, Shady Canyon, and Nellie Gail, there are some things you may want to keep to yourself.”

Yeah unhuh,…like:

“Oh, it’s a thin line between $aturday night & $unday morning MegaChurch redeemption$” ;-)

“The O.C.!”

heheeeheeeheehaahaaahaaheeehaahaaa… (Hwy50™)

 
Comment by SaladSD
2011-10-10 12:21:00

A neighbor is trying to sell her home for 525K that she bought in 1999 for 212K. It’s all on Zillow. She’ll be lucky to get 450K, but either believes her fugly new granite and chrome combo entitles her to ignore the comps or did a huge equity cash out and “doesn’t want to give it away.” Her agent just dropped the price 10K after it’s been on the market 2 months. without a number 4 leading the asking price no one’s going to bother…

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 17:44:31

“It’s all on Zillow.”

Gawd bless the creators of Zillow and Redfin…all the price data they provide makes the real estate market very transparent!

 
 
 
Comment by Martin
2011-10-10 05:13:47

I gave a contract on a house and it is a short sale. Both buyer and seller have signed and is submitted to the bank. The RE agent doesn’t want to change the status as pending in the MLS listing till the bank approves. My argument is that it is legally binding now and the RE agent is just trying to get more offers to get inot a bidding war by prolonging the open period. Thoughts????

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 06:28:54

Until you sign the papers and exchange keys - it is still pending.

Anything can happen, anyone can pull out before the closing.

Comment by Martin
2011-10-10 07:13:14

But on MLS the RE agent should change the staus to “Pending” instead of “Active”.

Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 13:20:53

or at least active contingent

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Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 14:20:15

change the status as pending in the MLS ??
My argument is that it is legally binding now ??
Thoughts ??

Your argument is probably correct…The agents MLS will (should) have specific rules that cover the required status change once a contract is executed…I would turn to the MLS for the answer OR tell the Realtor your going to go to the MLS…That will likely get your “pending” status you desire…

 
 
Comment by polly
2011-10-10 05:30:58

I have been trying to understand the appeal of credit card debt recently. Because honestly, I have never gotten it before. I find debt makes me itch when I look at my accounts. As some of you know I went on a vacation this year, and while I didn’t pay for the whole thing myself (my parents wanted to treat the family to celebrate their anniversary), I ended up spending a lot more than I ususally do for a yearly vacation. I decided to do this without going “off book” which is how I describe having to put more money in my checking account in a particular month than I usually do (paychecks go direcly to savings). I managed to build up quite a bit in my checking account in the months before the trip, but it wasn’t quite enough. So, here I am, a few months later. I just moved my “November” money into my checking account, about two weeks before I normally would. Without that, my checking account would have less than $10 in it. I have about $130 in my wallet, a little more than 1/2 a tank of gas and enough to last a while on my Metro cards. Next bill that is actually due is November’s rent.

I have the luxury of paying myself November’s money early because all I am really doing is moving money from savings to checking early. People living paycheck to paycheck don’t have that luxury. They have to wait for the paycheck or unemployment check or child support or whatever to show up before they can do that. They might be stuck with less than $10 in the checking account. It is not pretty. I think I just might be starting to “get” the temptation to not pay off the card every month. I have paid off the whole amount hroughout this little exercise, but it was tempting not to - to have a little extra in the checking account so I didn’t have to remember that I am not allowed to take out any cash at an ATM because there isn’t any money to take.

Oh, and my bank doesn’t have any checking account fees so I don’t have to worry about that, and my utilities are included in my rent so that cost is not variable (which it would be for most) which makes planning a lot easier. Several more huge advantages over the average person. Also, because I have the ability to go “off book,” the stress level is a lot less than if the exercise were my real life, not just a test of what being on the edge feels like.

I did have to go “off book” once this summer. I put extra money in checking to pay for some car repairs. Imagine if you didn’t have the ability to do that. The car could not be used without the repairs. I could get by without the car if I had to, but most people can’t. Maybe I am starting to get why people might decide to trade in a car for a new one that could be purchased for no money down instead of paying $1000 (actually less than that in my case) to get the old one fixed. It sounded dumb beyond all possible belief, but if you have no savings, no spare capacity on your credit card, no relatives who can loan you the money and no way to get to work without a car, it might just be a rational choice. Like jumping off a cliff might be a rational choice if it was the only way to get away from an avalanche. After all, there is a small chance there could be something soft at the bottom.

Comment by combotechie
2011-10-10 05:40:29

Having a credit card means a sucker never has to say to himself “I can’t afford it.”

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2011-10-10 06:09:13

Polly:

You should have a line of men wanting to take you out. Finding a woman responsible with money was always pretty rare, and when you found one you took her seriously….well at least I did.

Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 06:29:20

“You should have a line of men wanting to take you out.”

So that she could pay, right? :grin:

I use the CC card for plane tickets or large purchases. I pay it off the next month, or over 2-3 months. The interest charges don’t add up to that much over 2-3 months, and to me it’s worth paying a little finance charge to maintain the FICO.

Comment by rusty
2011-10-10 09:21:32

We just realized that ourselves. We are now letting 10 bucks a month trail over month to month , so we can up the FICO score. Can’t believe it hurts you if you pay it off each month, but there you go.

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Comment by polly
2011-10-10 12:29:59

Pay? What is this pay? I have a list of activities a mile long that can be done for close to free (just transportation money) in this town. Most of them are kind of geeky (Capital Science Lectures at the Carnegie Institution and lectures or events at the Air and Space Museum) or high brow (chamber music concerts at the Marine Barracks Annex), but not all of them (US Navy Birthday concert). People who don’t know how to spend time together without dropping $80 on dinner are boring.

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Comment by Anon In DC
2011-10-10 10:35:30

Hmmm. I think women might be more responsibile with money than men. Studies have shown that they are better (slightly) investors.

 
 
Comment by whyoung
2011-10-10 06:19:54

“I have been trying to understand the appeal of credit card debt”

I’m not sure there is an “appeal” (in the sense of attractiveness), I think it’s the “how much a month” mentality with little thought to the total costs down the line. (Actually doing the math on the total cost with interest instead of the purchase price of a car or a house can induce nausea.)

Comment by polly
2011-10-10 07:30:43

Perhaps appeal was the wrong word. Does temptation make more sense? The temptation of not paying off the full amount on the card to leave a little more cash in the checking account - I think that is better.

I like the fact that the card I use most is issued by my regular bank. When I logon, I see it right there along with my other accounts: Credit card, then checking account, then savings account, then other savings account (I used to mentally designate this the downpayment account, but I’m not sure if I really think of it that way anymore).

It makes it trivially easy to see that the money in the accounts isn’t really mine if there is outstanding credit card debt. The total of the debt is right next to the total of the accounts at the bottom of the list.

I’m willing to add some aspects of on-line banking to Volkers one item list of positive financial innovations (ATMs). Some aspects of on-line banking - depending on your bank and how well they implement it - are a positive.

Comment by The_Overdog
2011-10-10 08:01:52

My wife is a big fan of credit card debt. I’m more like you.

I’d say the following list of points drives her actions:

1) She feels that everything she buys is ‘necessary’.
2) She doesn’t feel any need to prepare for upcoming unknown events.
3) Paying the minimum on the bill is ~$200 a month. Paying the bill down would require more like $600 a month. To her, she’s making the correct frugal decision.
4) Everytime she’s going to put more down to pay a bit off, an expense comes up (car repair, etc).
5) She lives in an odd world where she feels the need to stock up on things just in case something happens (we live in a city of 300k and a metroarea of millions)
6) She doesn’t make that much money (and is not interested in training or ladder climbing) so justifies the credit card as a necessary backstop.
7) She likes the points for airline miles, etc
8) She likes the social cache of having ‘good’ credit cards (American Express is one of the good ones. Discover is an example of a bad one).
9) She likes her high FICO score, higher than mine.
10) She lives pretty close to her total paychecks, so any marginal spending above has to go to the card.

In her defense, she’s not a big spender, it’s less than 5 figures, and built up most of it (and the mega proceeds from a condo sale) backstopping her deadbeat relatives many years ago. And she’s too proud for me to pay it off for her. Unfortunately for her, even at less than 5 figures, it would realistically take years to pay off due to #1 & #10 above.

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Comment by polly
2011-10-10 08:35:50

Have the new disclosures on the bill (how long it would take to pay off paying only the minimum and what the interest charges would be) had any impact on her?

 
Comment by The_Overdog
2011-10-10 09:01:08

I don’t think so.

 
Comment by polly
2011-10-10 13:26:10

It might help. You should point it out to her if you can without starting a fight.

 
 
Comment by Neuromance
2011-10-10 10:06:52

Perhaps appeal was the wrong word. Does temptation make more sense? The temptation of not paying off the full amount on the card to leave a little more cash in the checking account - I think that is better.

I can lie to myself as well as anyone, but when it comes to money, I have much harder time lying to myself. A debt is a debt, and I want to clear it asap.

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Comment by FB wants a do over
2011-10-10 06:50:39

We’ve had similar challenges with what we term “unexpected expenses”. Spending extra during a vacation would be considered an “unexpected expense” though not to the point where we’re counting every penny during the vacation.

What’s intriguing is that when an “unexpected expense” occurs, everything else that’s considered a discretionary expense goes on hold until the extra amount that was “unexpectedly” taken from savings is made whole again. I guess you could say it’s sort of an automatic reflex brought about through conditioning.

One of the inner demons that I sometimes find myself battling is the dreaded “impulse buy”. The obvious solution is to walk away from the purchase and give myself a week to think about whether I really want / need the item. This approach seems to work well and 95% of the time I end up talking myself out of the purchase. However, I can see where other folks are more inclined to pull out the credit card on the spot and make the purchase. It’s just too easy.

Comment by polly
2011-10-10 07:36:54

I try to use cash in places where I am likely to bump into impulse buy items. Pay cash at the grocery store, the office supply store, movies, gas, craft fairs, book stores, etc. Places where I am likely to just see something cool or tempting and want to pick it up. Obviously doesn’t work on-line, but it is easier to put off an on-line purchase since you don’t have to make a time consuming trip to get there. If I find myself having to get an “allowance” more often than expected because the cash has run out, it is time to pull back a bit. Obviously, right now, impulse buys are way, way down.

 
 
Comment by Elanor
2011-10-10 08:00:20

Somehow I neglected to pay our CC bill on time this month and am now faced with a late fee and a whopping interest charge for the 6 days the account is in arrears. I am more pissed at myself than at the usurious CC company. And I am reconsidering our longstanding habit of putting everything on the credit card. I will pay for the interest charge by not buying the boots I planned to purchase with my 20% off coupon from REI. Didn’t need them anyway. Oh how I hate giving free money to Citibank because of my disorganization and procrastination!

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 11:40:22

Hi Elanor,
Thanks for the “Hi” the other day! I’m well thanks. Great Mid-West, Pacific-Northwest and NorCal Sept-Oct. Back to Rio soon. (just as things are getting interesting) :(

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 13:59:34

Great Mid-West, + NorCal

beans—spill: ?

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Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 08:02:15

I have been trying to understand the appeal of credit card debt recently

I think that for many people its a “lifeline”. As in, oops the car needs a tranny repair, or the fridge broke down, or we had to take little Jimmy to the ER when he broke his arm and we aren’t even close to meeting the deductible on our HD plan.

Comment by polly
2011-10-10 08:44:18

And that works for people who are actually living paycheck to paycheck. But people who make more do this too. Elizabeth Warren found that a lot of the charges build up on the cards is for healthcare and other emergencies, but that doesn’t account for all of it. And even if they all were emergencies, some of them could have been avoided if the household had more in savings. I’ve never lived all the way down to my minimum needs, since I haven’t had a roommate since law school and since law school have always indulged in cable TV at least, but I’ve gotten closer to it than a lot of folks. Your $500 a week crowd is just about beyond the ability to save, but there are plenty of people who could and don’t.

 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2011-10-10 08:54:12

For some folks I think the line between “needs” and “wants” starts to blur after awhile.

For example - I need to upgrade to the latest Android phone or iPhone because I don’t want to be left behind.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 14:46:39

There are those people as well.

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Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 09:37:36

Or, in my particular case, legal fees incurred during a custody battle when the kids packed up and moved out of “Chester the Molester’s” house…..That, and the emergency expansion of the household from one to three.

A lot people don’t won’t admit/don’t recognize the fact that a lot of us in “old industries” never saw any raises/COLAs from 1990-on (gotta keep up those 6-8% “returns” to keep Wall Street happy, lest they invest somewhere more “profitable”).

Do that for 20 years, and tell me how much you can save for anything. My gross take-home has only gone up 10% since 1999. I never supplemented my income by joining the house-flipper/refi/HELOC bandwagon, so this loss in purchasing power was evident.

Add to that the fact that all taxes and user fees are a lot higher compared to 1990. Our sales tax went from 3% to 8-9%, for example.

I’ve got tax returns from 1977-present to demonstrate this.

Comment by polly
2011-10-10 12:42:34

There is no question you seem to have been screwed over royally by the changes in the economy, fixer. You got a job in a technical field, became really good at it, and found that the normal progression of raises that had been the norm for the people who were about 20 years ahead of you didn’t materialize. It stinks and you have plenty of company.

The opposite has happened to a few, but very, very few outside the 1%ers. Having a security clearance has become more valuable, but that is about all I can think of. The high end pensions for some state and local workers (especially the ones where you can cram it by working overtime the last year or three) will probably be lost eventually.

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Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 15:43:18

It isn’t just me.

It’s about everyone in every high tech field

The requirements/standards for staying current in the field are getting higher and higher. While the pay is getting crappier and crappier.

Your typical aircraft/car/computer/railroad/infrastructure tech has to know a lot more stuff than his circa 1980 counterpart did. Added to that, you are doing a lot of functions that were formerly done by managers.

We’re getting real close to the point where it just doesn’t make any sense to beat your heads against these walls, when the compensation doesn’t match the headaches and responsibility.

We’ve had an uptick in the aviation business since May. The laid off A&P who have any kind of currency are working, and the backlog of guys who didn’t have experience is going away rapidly. In the meantime, the genuine aircraft mech schools are shutting down, because of a lack of students.

So, we’re either going to have a bunch of 90 day wonders with no adult supervision trying to fix stuff, or the 90 day wonders will be overseas because “we can’t find qualified Americans”

(Qualified Americans = people with better than average IQs, who can pass repeated drug and alcohol screening, have some mechanical/electrical aptitude, and aren’t going to college, so they will work for scraps.)

 
 
Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 12:45:26

Oregonians pull in $485 dollars more than they did in 1993.
Somebody making $30k then would now be pulling in $30,485.
What do you mean, no COLA? They are pullin in almost 10 bucks more a week than 18 yrs ago!
Local news is doing a bit on the struggles of the Oregon middle class.

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Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 14:49:45

Most employers will only give you an annual raise if you walk on water. Otherwise its no raises and the constant threat of being laid off. I’m seeing people who would normally stay put at a job for the long haul job hopping as frequently as one a year or so.

 
Comment by drumminj
2011-10-10 16:39:18

Oregonians pull in $485 dollars more than they did in 1993.
Somebody making $30k then would now be pulling in $30,485.

That’s a pretty bad misinterpretation of that statistic.

You cannot take an aggregate statistic and then represent it as an individual like that. It’s not supported by the data whatsoever, though perhaps you could find an individual to whom that applies.

 
Comment by drumminj
2011-10-10 16:43:28

Most employers will only give you an annual raise if you walk on water.

Do you work for ‘most employers’? Or are you making generalized assertions without backing again? How many different employers have you worked for in the past year?

 
Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 18:54:27

I admit to the sensasionalism present in that interpretation. I know looking at my pay tables; entry jobs as a classroom teachers are currently right about 30k.

Would certainly be making more than $485 more after 18 yrs of step increases. But that is for a union goon. Subs, which is what I do, make the exact same as they did in 2003.

But for the career teachers making more after several years, still not raking it by any means, but their larger gains means someone else must make even less in terms of $$ gains.

Sorry to generalize incorrectly. I did not mean to insinuate it applied to everyone across the board, just used it as an average joe possible example. The MSM made me do it!

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2011-10-10 19:27:11

But Mike $30K in Bend SHOULD have been a decent salary….

but the bubble and ca infestors really did a number on youz guyz

 
 
 
 
Comment by Trapper
2011-10-10 08:41:50

Dear Polly,
I have been an active reader of Ben’s Blog for several years.
I certainly enjoy the camaraderie of the usual posters, but always am saying to myself, “way to go”, and “that is some gal” when I read your posts. I find myself quite smitten with you.
signed -
GS 14 series 1811 in middle America

Comment by polly
2011-10-10 11:07:07

Thank you for your kind words, Trapper. Really.

 
Comment by polly
2011-10-10 13:30:38

Oh, and I am impressed with the GS-14 in an 1811 job. We had a training class a number of years ago with an 1811 from my agency. I think he said he had to start as something ridiculous like a GS-7. Maybe even lower? You have a lot of responsibility.

 
 
Comment by Carl Morris
2011-10-10 10:20:32

I have been trying to understand the appeal of credit card debt recently.

I don’t think it appeals to anybody. What does appeal to them is solving whatever want/need problem they have today without having to change their lifestyle…for now.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 05:46:37

Recession Officially Over, U.S. Incomes Kept Falling
By ROBERT PEAR
Published: October 9, 2011

WASHINGTON — In a grim sign of the enduring nature of the economic slump, household income declined more in the two years after the recession ended than it did during the recession itself, new research has found.

Between June 2009, when the recession officially ended, and June 2011, inflation-adjusted median household income fell 6.7 percent, to $49,909, according to a study by two former Census Bureau officials. During the recession — from December 2007 to June 2009 — household income fell 3.2 percent.

The finding helps explain why Americans’ attitudes toward the economy, the country’s direction and its political leaders have continued to sour even as the economy has been growing. Unhappiness and anger have come to dominate the political scene, including the early stages of the 2012 presidential campaign.

Comment by WT Economist
2011-10-10 06:02:52

You miss the big headlines:

Median household income is down nearly 10 percent since the recession started. That is nearly unprecedented.

“The full 9.8 percent drop in income from the start of the recession to this June — the most recent month in the study — appears to be the largest in several decades, according to other Census Bureau data. Gordon W. Green Jr., who wrote the report with John F. Coder, called the decline “a significant reduction in the American standard of living.”

Not everyone shared the pain. “For example, income, after adjustment for inflation, declined fairly substantially for households headed by people under age 62, but it rose 4.7 percent for those headed by people 65 to 74, many of whom are not in the labor force. The change was negligible for those 62 to 64.”

My guess: it isn’t as if people who were age 65 to 75 at the start of the recession became better off. It is that the age 65 to 74 age bracket was entirely occupied by the best off generations in U.S. history by the end of the period. The’ve been better off as the passed through every age bracket, and those now 55 to 64 have been as well off.

Those 54 and younger have been progressively worse off on average as they hit each age bracket. You really see the declines in recession.

Of course the executive class and banksters have done really well, since paper asset prices have been re-inflated. And public employee unions aren’t giving back the retroactive pension enhancements of the past 15 years. Though they are agreeing to drastically lower pay and benefits for future public employees.

Comment by combotechie
2011-10-10 06:26:25

“For example, income … rose 4.7 percent for those headed by people 65 to 74, many of who are not in the labor force.”

That was then, this is now. Look for dire times greeting these folks.

The money is just not there.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 08:18:44

Well, if anything their pensions/annuities and SS payouts won’t decline in the near term.

We just hired a new engineer at the office. He’s a contract to hire, meaning he’s a no benefits temp for six months. I keep hearing about “shortages” of qualified engineers, but if there really was a “shortage” no one would accept a “contract to hire” offer.

I remember when there really was a shortage. They didn’t run you through the wringer in the interview process, there were signing bonuses and they didn’t nickle and dime you on the salary.

In recent years I have received job offers where they offered me less pay than what I was currently getting, and that was after running through their interview gauntlet. Needless to say I turned those down.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 06:28:12

“The full 9.8 percent drop in income from the start of the recession to this June — the most recent month in the study — appears to be the largest in several decades, according to other Census Bureau data. Gordon W. Green Jr., who wrote the report with John F. Coder, called the decline “a significant reduction in the American standard of living.”

Presumably the 9.8 percent drop in income does not take into consideration increases in volatile food and energy prices since the onset of recession, which make the drop in real income even larger than the nominal income decline.

 
Comment by Trapper
2011-10-10 08:49:55

WT
Good insight.
I agree.
Younger you are, = more screwed you are

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 09:32:34

The young have some huge advantages, which many may not recognize at the moment:

1) There is a longer time from now until when they retire for them to rebuild wealth, compared to, say, some 60-year-old whose stock portfolio was hammered by the Lost Decade and whose home is underwater.

2) Much of the damage to household wealth which could have happened already has happened.

3) Once the Great Recession ends, they will get to surf the recovery while they are still young and strong enough to catch themselves a wave.

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Comment by WT Economist
2011-10-10 10:16:17

But they will find that American’s institutions, public and private, will be bankrupted by the entitled people who went before.

Those age 55 to 74 really are Generation Greed, those who were best off on average in U.S. history and will be the first to leave following generations worse off.

My generation (generally lumped in with the 1960s generation) is Generation Apathy. The fact that we were on the short end of the stick was widely discussed from the beginning, and the result was a retreat from participation in institutions. Well, my peers are going to find out how that works out.

And our kids will be worse off on average than we were. I’d bet on it.

 
 
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 11:56:04

Median household income is down nearly 10 percent since the recession started.

“It’s their own Un-American fault. Americans have gotten 10% lazier since the recession started.” (Herman Cain 10/11/11?)

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 14:55:39

I can’t believe that Cain is seriously being considered as a candidate.

1) He was a bankster
2) He was a CEO
3) He has no problem publicly displaying the contempt he feels for working class Americans. Smart Republicans only admit that at the Country Club.

oh, I almost forgot

4) He’s a Baptist Minister. Maybe the PTB think that racist evangs and fundies will vote for him. They won’t.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 17:54:10

5) He’s a black conservative Republican.

Hint for Herman: If you haven’t yet brought Thomas Sowell on board your economics team, do so ASAP!

 
 
 
 
Comment by goon squad
2011-10-10 06:06:17

Post 2001 recession: the jobless recovery
Post 2008 recession: the recovery-less recovery

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 10:46:22

Post 2010: The Cheney-$hrub “$hadow-Economic-Flower$” Legacy is in blo$$om $tage, lovely $cent no? ;-)

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 07:55:37

In a grim sign of the enduring nature of the economic slump, household income declined more in the two years after the recession ended than it did during the recession itself, new research has found.

So this means that either:

1) The recession never ended
or
2) We are moving away from a “consumer” based economy.

Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:45:00

or

3) We’re really in a depression.

Comment by Carl Morris
2011-10-10 10:24:38

All of the above?

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Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 14:30:15

1) True…

2) True…

3) False…Not yet….You will know it when you see it/feel it…

 
Comment by Carl Morris
2011-10-10 15:24:24

I don’t know…I’m seeing and feeling quite a bit. 75% remained employed through the last one, and there’s no guarantee they’ll all look alike. I think everybody agrees we *would* be in one if the govt hadn’t dumped money all over the place. What if all they did was stretch it out, and this is what this one will feel like…for a LONG time?

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 05:49:10

Awful quarter for Wall Street may be only the beginning
By Ryan Vlastelica
NEW YORK | Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:50pm EDT

(Reuters) - This past quarter was miserable for bullish U.S. stock investors. The bad news is, things may get worse before they get better.

The S&P 500 fell about 14 percent in the third quarter — losing about $1.7 trillion in market cap, according to Thomson Reuters Datastream — as the U.S. economy struggled and a resolution to Europe’s sovereign debt woes proved elusive.

The quarter was the S&P’s weakest since the fourth quarter of 2008, the peak of the financial crisis. Many analysts say persistent uncertainty overshadows any near-term value created by share price declines.

“I don’t see great opportunities and wouldn’t encourage aggressiveness until we see some stabilization in Europe, China and here,” said Jerry Harris, president of asset management at Sterne Agee in Birmingham, Alabama.

“We may be approaching that point, but it’s too early to have a lot of conviction and there’s not much potential for prices until we start getting better economic numbers.”

 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 06:19:37

Finally! Used-car prices are falling - USA TODAY
After rising much of last year, used car prices are finally sliding.

Manheim, a big used-car wholesaler, says not only are prices starting to fall, but they will continue to fall. Still, says Manheim economist Tom Webb, they remain high by historical standards, Automotive News reports. Reason: In this tough economy, many buyers just can’t afford new cars.

The monthly index was 122.9 in September, down from 123.7 in August but above its 118.9 reading in September 2010, the News says. The index peaked at 127.8 in May. The index began in January 1995 at 100.

SUV prices, in particular, fell when gas prices peaked in the past few months.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 06:31:20

“In this tough economy, many buyers just can’t afford new cars.”

I have to explain this to my wife soon. She thinks I would be better off buying used early next year. But when many folks can only afford to buy used, there is an argument for considering a new car purchase.

Comment by combotechie
2011-10-10 06:46:02

“In this economy, many buyers just can’t afford new cars.”

Which forces car buyers to buy used, which forces up the prices of used cars.

So we have:

1. Pricy new cars that are not sold, nevertheless the price of the cars - sold or not - is what goes into the inflation statistics.

2. Pricey used cars that are sold, and these prices also go into the inflation statistics.

So the prices of both new and used cars is high but the amount of cash flowing into buying cars is not.

So what is one to believe? The prices or the cash flow? I choose to believe the cash flow.

Comment by combotechie
2011-10-10 06:58:05

IMO price is a piss-poor method to measure the health of the economy.

The price of an item can be listed anywhere the seller wants to list it but it does not mean a thing if the item is not sold.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 09:35:35

So far as I am aware, it is transactions prices, not list prices, which go into official inflation statistics.

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 07:36:03

Pricy new cars that are not sold

Oh they are being sold. The automakers have accepted the fact that the bottom 50% (or more) will be buying used from now on. The 12 million new cars that they do sell are being sold at stratospheric prices and rebates, when available, are teensy weensy. Just 5 years ago you could get a decent full sized car for $20K. Today a similar car will set you back about $30K.

The automakers (especially the big 3) have finally accepted that they won’t “make it up in volume”. They will sell fewer cars at a much higher price. The new normal.

There might be a rosy future for car mechanics, as the fleet of used cars will have to last much longer than it did in the not so recent past.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 09:37:24

“They will sell fewer cars at a much higher price.”

The oligopolistic structure of the automotive industry confers the market power to pursue this strategy.

 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 09:42:56

That, and the GM/Chrysler bankruptcies let them get rid of a lot of their overhead.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 15:16:48

“That, and the GM/Chrysler bankruptcies let them get rid of a lot of their overhead.”

Oh yes, now all their new hires earn a princely $14/hr. I’m sure those new UAW workers can afford those pricey cars and trucks they assemble.

 
 
 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 07:53:10

Still, says Manheim economist Tom Webb, they remain high by historical standards

No kidding. I just looked at the asking prices for two of our older, paid for cars, which our kids drive.

A 6 year old SUV (with 50K miles): Asking prices are 50% of what we paid for it when new.

The other is a 5 year old sedan (60K miles) Asking prices are as much as 60% of what it cost new.

It wasn’t that long ago when a new car would depreciate 40% or more in just two years.

Of course I can top that. When I lived in high inflation (20-30%)Mexico cars would actually appreciate. Other than cars purchased using “credit circles” all cars were paid for and most transactions were cash.

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 09:44:40

Bought an old beater pickup truck in August 2010.

If I had to buy the same truck again today, I’d have to pay $1000 more.

 
Comment by measton
2011-10-10 11:07:32

In 2008 I bought a minivan and have put about 14k on it and I’m pretty sure I could sell it for the same prive I paid.

My F in law bought a hybrid Camry a few years ago and it has hardley depreciated. He got if for 20 - 21k and as far as I can see he could sell it for the same.

Mechanics won’t do all that great as people will drive less and fix more of the problems themselves. Poverty will make even the country club set get dirty.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 15:21:38

There’s a lot of things J6P can’t fix himself. Like a tranny. It’s one thing to change the oil or the spark plugs yourself and quite another to fix big things that break when the odometer is well past 100K. And when you can’t afford to say “screw it, I’m due for a new car”, then you get the old one fixed.

And not all metro areas have acceptable public transit, in fact few places west of the Mississippi do.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 17:56:41

“…few places west of the Mississippi do…”

1. San Fran
2. Seattle
3. Portland
4. SLC (work in progress)
5. Other?

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 06:26:10

Another gubmint waste of time. They will have to set up a super-duper committee to meet up after this one flops.

ITEM: Debt “supercommittee” struggling to agree

(AP) WASHINGTON - After weeks of secret meetings, the 12-member deficit-cutting panel established under last summer’s budget and debt deal appears no closer to a breakthrough than when talks began last month.

While the panel members themselves aren’t doing much talking, other lawmakers, aides and lobbyists closely tracking the so-called “supercommittee” are increasingly skeptical, even pessimistic, that the panel will be able to meet its assigned goal of at least $1.2 trillion in deficit savings over the next 10 years.

The reason? A familiar deadlock over taxes and cuts to major programs like the Medicare and Medicaid health care programs for the elderly, poor and disabled.

Democrats won’t go for an agreement that doesn’t include lots of new tax revenue; Republicans are just as ardently anti-tax. The impasse over revenues means that Democrats won’t agree to cost curbs on popular entitlement programs like Medicare.

“Fairness has to be a prerequisite for it,” said House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi. “We have just come through passing a bill that was (all spending) cuts, no revenue.” Pelosi was referring to the August debt limit bill, which set tight “caps” on agency budgets but didn’t contain revenue increases supported by Democrats.

Gov’t records $1.3 trillion budget deficit again
Poll: Most want taxes on millionaires increased
Deficits still go up big in Obama’s deficit plan
Pressure mounts on supercommittee to cut big

Democrats are more insistent on revenues now.

“There’s been no movement on revenues and I’m not sure the Democrats will agree to anything without revenues,” added a Democratic lobbyist who required anonymity to speak candidly.

Asked last week whether she is confident that the panel can hit its $1.2 trillion goal, co-chairman Sen. Patty Murray, a Washington state Democrat, sidestepped the question.

“I am confident that the public is watching us very closely to see if we can show this country that this democracy can work,” Murray told reporters. “I carry that weight on my shoulders every day and so does every member of this committee.”

The two parties have equal strength on the panel, which has until the Thanksgiving holiday at the end of November to come up with a plan to submit for up-or-down House and Senate votes in December. That means bipartisan compromise is a prerequisite for a successful result.

Thus far, say aides to panel members and other lawmakers, neither side has demonstrated the required flexibility in the super-secret talks.

Comment by oxide
2011-10-10 06:33:07

At which point the debt-ceiling deal will trigger defense cuts. I don’t see this as a bad thing. In fact, I’m liking this trigger tactic. They were thinking about that for health care reform, and I think they should try again.

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 08:23:38

At which point the debt-ceiling deal will trigger defense cuts.

The US Government borrows 40 cents for every dollar it pays out

Defense spending is 20% of the budget
Entitlements are 55% of the budget

Do the math…

Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:52:04

Cutting the war budget is long overdue. I don’t view spending for social security and medicare as bad things.

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Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 09:04:07

I don’t view spending for social security and medicare as bad things.

1. Spending for defense is actually in the US Constitution as a mandatory action of the US Government

2. There is nothing in the US Constitution for the US government on providing a retirement or medical treatment to anyone

3. Cutting the defense budget to ZERO only gets us about half way there…

Your move…

 
Comment by MrBubble
2011-10-10 09:25:06

So the best defense is a good offense?

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 13:46:18

There is nothing are provisions in the US Constitution that allowed citizens to decide in favor ofthe US government providing a retirement and medical treatment system for it’s citizens.

Do you know how that Constitution thing works 2bananna?

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 14:36:57

3. Cutting the defense budget to ZERO only gets us about half way there…

Cutting SS to ZERO accomplishes nothing as it is funded by the payroll tax that would in theory die with it … unless the maters of the universe do not repeal the payroll tax and use it for something else … like more wars.

 
Comment by MightyMike
2011-10-10 15:13:02

Your move…

Here’s my move. If the Social Security and Medicare are really unconstitutional, we’ll have to amend the constitution to resolve that. Those two programs are more popular than just about any other institutions in America. That takes care of the constitution issue.

 
Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 15:26:45

Those two programs are more popular than just about any other institutions in America. That takes care of the constitution issue.

Popularity = constitutional???

Lemmie guess - you were educated by a public union teacher

 
Comment by MightyMike
2011-10-10 17:41:19

You didn’t read what I wrote. I said that the constitution can be changed if constitutionality is an issue. An amendment can be added to the constitution to make Social Security and Medicare constitutional. The high level of popularity of the two programs is what should make it a pretty straightforward thing to get the amendment ratified.

 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 12:16:10

“Do the math…”

I did. Conclusion? The rich have to pay more taxes. For a change.

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Comment by Anon In DC
2011-10-10 13:31:11

The rich already pay most of the taxes. I am not rich. But I dont’ understand this annimosity, jealeousy, not sure of the right word to use toward them. So Bill Gates makes himself (and many others) a bunch of money. Or Johnny Trust inherits money that his graps earned. But alpha-slothp and politians like Obama, Pelosi, Reid think gee that’s a lot of money. I sure would like to do charity (or for the more cynical buy votes so I won’t have to go earn an honest living) with Bill’s money. I think I’ll help myself….
It’s theft nothing more nothing less. However they always couch it in terms like “fairness or justice or social contract.” Funny how bleeding hearts never want to save the world on their own dime. Just someone else’s. Exhibit A: Warren Buffet. His big check to treasury seems to be lost in the mail.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-10-10 13:58:00

It’s theft nothing more nothing less. However they always couch it in terms like “fairness or justice or social contract.” “supply-side/trickle-down economics and letting the rich keep more of their money.”

The rich already pay most of the taxes. own your A$$. But I dont’ understand this annimosity, jealeousy, not sure of the right word to use toward them.

(It’s very confusing)

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 15:19:05

I’ll dumb it down for you, Anon. When the rich have all the money, everybody else can’t pay their debts to them- so they lose all that money. And sometimes their heads, if they don’t watch out.

You’d think the rich would be smarter, but I guess they didn’t pay attention in history class.

 
 
Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 14:41:30

Defense spending is 20% of the budget
Entitlements are 55% of the budget ??

At least entitlements provide some benefit unless you conclude that we are benefiting from those two wars…Besides, you should add the Pentagon to the entitlement class also…

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 06:41:00

Massive short squeeze underway on Wall Street…

Comment by bob
2011-10-10 08:10:05

Just wondering - how do you know it is more a short squeeze. Instead of the banksters getting excited about a sovereign debt deal in the EU.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 09:39:38

I don’t see why the shorts can’t get killed in a bailout rally; do you see something mutually exclusive about those two contingencies which I am missing?

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 10:40:07

F = 14+” lgth

For throw-back to legal in less than 2 weeks ;-)

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 06:45:05

“California Homeowners are Using This Ridiculously Easy Trick…”

The woman in that ad definitely brings to mind a different meaning of the word ‘trick’ than they intended…

 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2011-10-10 07:02:19

I need to be careful here as I don’t want to be labeled as someone who’s attempting to start class warfare.

I see articles like this and wonder if the top 1% paid someone to write it. Consipiracy theory? Perhaps. Then again, I wonder if these folks “living well” on $20,000 a year are also receiving any benefits from the government. If they are, then that means they’re not really “living well” on $20,000 a year.

The Secret to Living Well on $20,000 a Year
USNews.com

Last week, we ran a story on living well on $40,000 a year, featuring a special education teacher who supports his family of four on that relatively modest salary. Fifty people commented on the article, many of whom argued that living on $40,000 a year was hardly an impressive feat.

“I could live like a king on $40,000 a year. Try living on $22,000 a year and see how that goes for you. And I have a family of three,” said Joyce of Maine.

[In Pictures: 10 Ways to Start Earning Extra Money Now]

Connie from Texas expressed a similar sentiment: “I would feel really rich if I made that kind of money… Why don’t you have an article on how to live on $17,000 or $20,000 a year?”

To do just that, we tracked down Joseph Fonseca, a writer currently living in Seattle who supports himself on $20,000 a year. Fonseca, 28, authored a first-person piece in the Washington Post over the weekend describing his “10 cities, 10 years” project, in which he moves every year and starts over in a new town. An aspiring novelist, he plans to eventually write a book about his quest. We spoke with him by phone to get more details about just how he makes ends meet.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 07:28:59

I see articles like this and wonder if the top 1% paid someone to write it.

What is there to wonder about? They own the MSM. Some “reporter” who is worried sick about being laid off was probably told by his or her editor to write this story.

The Secret to Living Well on $20,000 a Year

You don’t need no stinkin’ food stamps! Now get back to work, Lucky Ducky!

 
Comment by Elanor
2011-10-10 08:03:54

How much you wanna bet he doesn’t have health insurance? Or a car?

Comment by aNYCdj
2011-10-10 10:46:33

Yeah BIG OH’s screwup right there people who make too much for welfare and too poor to have their own health insurnce.

All that wasted time effort to create a super bad healthcare for us peons.

And of curse no MONEY for the 2nd ave subway which may be fininshed by 2016 No money for a LIRR amtrack tunnel to jersey

or any serious mass transit they could have extened the N line at least to LaGuardia airport decades ago.

 
 
Comment by polly
2011-10-10 08:03:59

Found the article (google USNews $20000 a year). He’s 28. No health insurance. No car. Still wearing clothes from college but gets new stuff every once in a while from Salvation Army. Has lower end cell phone, lap top and internet access and is thinking about dumping netflix. Rarely eats out, but goes to bars with friends sometimes. As long as you are willing to live with roommates and have no other responsibilities, it sounds doable.

Comment by SDGreg
2011-10-10 08:56:59

Yeah, if everything breaks right and you’re younger, this could work for a year or two. I could do that as a grad student, but not now. It’s not even close.

 
Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 09:08:55

Yep. Roomates, no future, no health care, no emergencies, no kids, no car, no new clothes, very few friends, no girlfriend and you can scrape by just fine.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 09:42:49

Goes without saying, but…

No house, no membership in the Ownership Society, no real estate transaction fees, no Mello Roos, HOA, home owner’s insurance, real estate taxes, mortgage interest payments, home maintenance and improvement, fancy furniture, etc etc etc…

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Comment by FB wants a do over
2011-10-10 13:08:05

These folks might not have a future, however, the real issue here is that they’re not paying their fair share of the taxes per the GOP.

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Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 14:51:27

There you have it right there.

We wouldn’t even have to discuss raising taxes if more people had better jobs and therefore automatically paid more taxes through payroll taxes.

 
 
 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2011-10-10 09:12:38

I’m not sure I would go as far as to say he his “living well”, but then again the definition of “living well” is subjective.

Would have been interesting to hear Joyce’s story.

“I could live like a king on $40,000 a year. Try living on $22,000 a year and see how that goes for you. And I have a family of three,” said Joyce of Maine.

Comment by measton
2011-10-10 11:12:17

Next up

How you to can live happily with shackles and eating the elites garbage.

 
 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 07:12:20

Sex, drugs and hiding from the law at Wall Street protests
By LACHLAN CARTWRIGHT and BOB FREDERICKS -NY POST

The criminals are crashing the party.

Lured by cheap drugs and free food, creepy thugs have infiltrated the crowd of protesters camped out in Zuccotti Park for Occupy Wall Street, The Post has learned.

“I got warrants. I’m running from the law,” boasted Dave, 24, a scrawny, unshaven miscreant in filthy clothes from Stamford, Conn. “I’m not even supposed to be here, but it’s as good a spot as any to hide.”

Wanted for burglary, the drug-addled fugitive said some of his hard-partying pals clued him in that the protest was a good place to be fed, get wasted and crash.

“I’ve been smoking and drinking in here for eight days now,” said Dave, booze on his breath and his eyes bloodshot as he lay sprawled on a tattered sheet of cardboard. “I need to get some methadone. Every day, I wake up, and I’m f–ked up.”

Drugs can be easy to score — a Post reporter was offered pot for $15 and heroin for $10.

They’ve already fueled at least one violent incident, when a wasted nut job socked a medical volunteer in the face before others hauled the attacker away.

“We are trying to keep everything calm and work with the police, but there are some crazies in here,” said Paul, a security volunteer.

“The other day, there was a guy charging people $5 to use the McDonald’s bathroom. He was on LSD or high on something.”

But the creeps can’t give a bad name to the group’s overall anti-greed message, protesters said.

A coalition of religious leaders and their followers yesterday marched from Washington Square Park to the encampment with a makeshift golden calf in the shape of the Wall Street bull, leading protesters in such spirituals as “We Shall Overcome” and “Down by the Riverside.”

The crowd chanted, “We are the 99 percent!” — referring to the millions of Americans not among the top 1 percent of the country’s earners — along with priests, rabbis and imams.

“You are fulfilling the words of the prophet Isaiah. You have thrown off the yoke. Occupy, occupy, occupy!” shouted Warren Goldstein, chair of the history department at the University of Hartford in Connecticut.

The golden calf sat atop a brown platform that marchers carried on their shoulders. On the platform were the words “false idol.”

The clerics — some holding signs that read, “Jesus is with the 99%” — said they were there to support the movement.

“You have woken up all of us … We will stand with you in every city, every state and every country across this globe,” said Michael Ellick, minister at Judson Memorial Church near Washington Square.

Hundreds gathered around philosopher Slavoj Zizek as he gave a speech and answered questions.

“They tell us we are dreamers. The true dreamers are those who think things can go on indefinitely the way they are,” he said. “We are not destroying anything. We are only witnessing how the system is destroying itself.”

Some protesters have said that in addition to being against Wall Street greed, they also are for a withdrawal from Afghanistan and Iraq and more help for Haiti.

But as the protest ground on for a 23rd day, it was evident that there were challenges.

Zuccotti Park smelled like an open sewer — with people urinating and defecating in public.

And some couples have taken advantage of the free condoms distributed by organizers to do the nasty in full view of other protesters.

“It kinda makes me think of what Woodstock must have been like,” said one protester, Sarah, 19 from the Upper West Side.

“I haven’t hooked up with any guys … but one of my friends did have sex in a tarp with a guy last night.”

The free chow offered to protesters was boosting the crowd.

“People say they are here for the cause, but the real reason is the free food,” quipped Cameron, 26, of Jersey City.

“On my third day, they had smoked salmon with cream cheese. You know how much smoked salmon is a pound? Sixteen dollars. I eat better here than I do with my parents!”

Many of the protesters said they are here for the long haul — and predicted trouble if cops try to clear the park.

“When the weather starts getting cold, we’re already talking about bringing tents in here,” said Robert, 47, of Pennsylvania. “I’m not going anywhere.

“I lost my job of 22 years, and someone has gotta pay,’’ he said. “Civil disobedience is something we may need to keep this site occupied. If everyone does it at once, the cops won’t be able to do anything.”

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 07:24:19

See, that didn’t take long. The MSM is now saying that the protesters are criminals. The PTB must be starting to get worried. If this doesn’t work they will plant people in the movement who will commit acts of violence and incite riots. And that will certainly get TV coverage while the bobble head news anchors solemnly condemn the movement as “‘unAmerican”.

Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 09:11:01

Agent provocatuers.

Oldest game in the book.

You can bet on it.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-10-10 10:10:31

Like this guy?

American Spectator Editor Admits Infiltrating Protest Group, Pepper Sprayed at Smithsonian

DCistdotcom

2011_1009_howley.jpg In a “breaking news” article posted online last night, American Spectator editor Patrick Howley admitted to having infiltrated the Action Committee protest and being a key participant, and perhaps instigator, of the group that tried to gain entry into the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum yesterday afternoon. Howley, pictured right, recounts his foray into group, having started the day before and ending with a face full of pepper spray. “But as far as anyone knew I was part of this cause — a cause that I had infiltrated the day before — and I wasn’t giving up before I had my story,” wrote Howley as to his reasons for going as far as he did.

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Comment by turkey lurkey
 
 
 
Comment by AbsoluteBeginner
2011-10-10 09:18:42

The OWS venues remind me of this for some reason:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

Different reasons for the protest, but met with disapproval in no small way.

 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 07:36:50

“People say they are here for the cause, but the real reason is the free food,” quipped Cameron, 26, of Jersey City.

“On my third day, they had smoked salmon with cream cheese. You know how much smoked salmon is a pound? Sixteen dollars. I eat better here than I do with my parents!”

- I would imagine Cameron will be back in his parents bassment once the winter cold sets in. Enjoying their free food.

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 08:17:40

Not surprising that free food and “relaxed” morals of some of the more lefty participants are attracting riff-raff. The bigger concern is that if protests turn violent - even by a tiny minority of anarchist or hooligan types - NYC’s criminal element will join in enthusiastically and use the opportunity to loot and rampage at will, as did their counterparts in the London riots (73% of the London arrestees had prior criminal convictions).

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 08:25:13

Well, at least NYC’s draconian gun control laws will keep its citizen’s safe…

 
 
Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 08:21:15

“I lost my job of 22 years, and someone has gotta pay,’’

That statement could mean alot of things…

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 09:25:02

That mentality does not bode well for the country. Or any innocent people who this guy decides he’s entitled to steal from.

Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 14:50:17

I agree Sammy…Ahansen mentioned this some time ago…You know we have a problem when we start seeing the National Guard…Well, that’s assuming we have any left returning from three tours in two elective wars…

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Comment by measton
2011-10-10 11:14:33

got warrants. I’m running from the law,” boasted Dave, 24, a scrawny, unshaven miscreant in filthy clothes from Stamford, Conn. “I’m not even supposed to be here, but it’s as good a spot as any to hide.”

Surrounded by cops that my sweep through and make arrests at anytime, being videotaped by participants and cops alike, and this guy thinks it’s a good place to hide????

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 18:00:44

The best place to hide something is in the open.

– Sherlock Holmes

 
 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
 
Comment by liz pendens
2011-10-10 07:54:29

Had to attend a family birthday dinner last night for my GF’s mom. Her sister was there bragging about here new “buy and bail” house which she says will close this month. I posted about it a couple of weeks ago- she has found a much lager, fancier house for less money than they owe on the FB one they currently are underwater on (they owe like $270k and the one next to it just sold (foreclosure) for $77k). I just stayed quiet and played dumb. How can this end well?

Comment by Montana
2011-10-10 10:00:37

I wonder if lenders will start adding clauses saying that if the borrower’s FICA drops after closing, sdue to default on another property, the loan will be accelerated and due? Or something like that.

Would it be in anyone’s interest to pursue it? I guess the new lender wouldn’t care.

Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 14:54:30

The lenders have gotten wise to this scam…Now, you must qualify for both payments to get the new loan and they will not allow “any” rental credit from the house you are moving from…Unless her sister can qualify for both she is probably DOA for any new loan…

 
 
Comment by Insurance Guy
2011-10-10 10:29:04

It is a wonder that someone would brag about such a venture. I bet a deficiency judgement is filed against her soon.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 11:35:24

I bet a deficiency judgement is filed against her soon.

Financial or psychiatric?

Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 14:56:24

LOL…Funny Hwy…

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Comment by SV guy
2011-10-10 11:15:09

“Her sister was there bragging about here new “buy and bail” house which she says will close this month.”

So much behavior now that is accepted used to be considered shameful.

Oh the slippery slope of moral hazard.

 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 07:55:04

Bloomberg administration’s largest mass layoff includes 672 public school workers. BY Mike Jaccarino
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

The Bloomberg administration has orchestrated its largest mass layoff at a single city agency, axing 672 public school workers Friday.

No teachers were laid off, but the cuts included 410 school aides, 82 family workers and 66 parent coordinators, among others, according to the city Department of Education. The cuts were spread out over 350 schools, The New York Times reported.

The layoffs were expected - more than 700 public school workers already received pink slips, the Daily News had previously reported.

City officials blamed the union, District Council 37, for refusing to give the city access to its health care fund, The Times said. The union had instead offered to cap workers’ hours and use furlough days.

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 08:27:29

Dancing around the titantic while the insane public union benefits and pensions will bankrupt the entire NYC budget.

Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 08:38:16

I would think that the union goons would be trying to hang on to their jobs, instead of losing them for their members.

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 08:49:19

I would think that the union goons would be trying to hang on to their jobs, instead of losing them for their members.

Pay attention.

Public unions do NOT give up insane salaries/benefit/pensions

This FORCES cities/counties/state into layoffs

Senior public union goons throw their less senior public union goon brothers under the bus…everytime

Repeat until bankruptcy (or federal bailout like the Stimulus)

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Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 09:56:51

All they had to do was look at the private sector.

Where there have been “givebacks” for 20 years.

In the end, the jobs still got outsourced. Because a 40% reduction in the cost of labor wasn’t good enough, when you can get a 95% reduction by outsourcing.

Wall Street/business wants to have it both ways. They want labor to be paid on the Chinese scale, but they want their bubble loans/debts paid back at 100%, plus interest.

Rock, meet hard place.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2011-10-10 13:21:19

“you can get a 95% reduction by outsourcing”

Perhaps that is a bit of an exageration. I hear from some who do outsource to China that we are approaching equilibrium, and given the hassles and issues, it pretty much isn’t so enticing.

It is my hope that rising cost of food makes slave labor prohibitively expensive.

 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 14:58:45

Exactly what Michael Lewis discusses in the California Chapter of his new book Boomerang…

 
 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 08:10:42

Next big thing? Shows about getting a damn job
By SEAN DALY - NY POST

The days of the Kardashians and the “Real Housewives” — shows about people with money, that is — may be coming to an end.

The new breed of reality shows is coming face to face with the hard, flat-broke truth of a country facing difficult economic times. The new shows teach the tricks of the trade about coupon clipping, furniture restoration, storage-locker auctions — and soon, even getting back to work.

“When we were in a nice, bustling economy, you saw lots of shows about flipping houses,” says Brent Montgomery, producer of “Pawn Stars” and Bravo’s new bargain-seeking series “Fashion Hunters.”

RECESSION TV: “Job Whisperer” is about people looking for work, while “Pawn Stars” and “Fashion Hunters” deal with current hard times as well.

“People were OK to watch fighting and bickering and more dramatic TV. Now, they are getting enough of that in their day-to-day lives just trying to find jobs.”

“Fashion Hunters” (Tuesdays, 9 p.m.) follows the daily drama at SoHo consignment shop Second Time Around.

Once-extravagant Wall Street wives sell off their extra Gucci and Prada items — and women on even tighter budgets line up to buy them for a fraction of the retail price.

“There is still a lot of fun and catty behavior when women are fighting over the price of a handbag,” Montgomery tells The Post. “You see people go in and get a $2,000 pair of shoes for under $100 and think, ‘That is a cool. I can still look like a million bucks on my unemployment check!’ ”

Getting people off unemployment and back on the payroll is the job of A&E’s “Job Whisperer” — a sort of cross between “Supernanny” and “Millionaire Matchmaker.”

“We’re a red-state show on a red-state network … but it’s more than just rednecks,” he says.

The pilot episode features a New Jersey mom looking for a job in publishing and a Connecticut soldier who has just returned from Afghanistan.

“I am not a career coach,” says veteran headhunter and star Stephen Viscusi, who helps guide the unemployed back into the workforce. “I tell people career coaches are for sissies.

“I teach the real, gutsy way to get in the door: Low-ball your salary. Look better. Don’t overdo your eyebrows. And clean up your Facebook. Nobody wants to see your shirtless picture or hire Blondie@aol.com.”

The takeaway, he hopes: “If this person that you just saw on TV can get a job, get off your ass and get a job, too.”

“The Job Whisperer” is expected to premiere as a one-off special in the next few weeks — with a chance at becoming a regular series if the ratings are good, according to producers.

Montgomery and his team at Leftfield Productions have made a specialty of developing shows about new ways to cash in on the sluggish economy.

“We are focused on small businesses,” he says. “It is kind of the American dream told through one person’s eyes.

“So many people have started their own business or want to start their own business. And they can relate to these individuals, where it is them against the world.”

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 10:03:59

New shows on the fall schedule:

-”Dumpster Divers”

-”Bobby Flay’s Roadkill Kitchen”

-Suburban Road Hunters”

-”My Classic Sh#tbox”, with Dennis Gage and Fred Sanford.

-”18 and Broke”

-”This Old Cardboard Box”

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 10:25:01

“Coinstar America”

A new version of a recent old game: “$ingle Depo$it Tran$actions”

 
Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 15:02:08

”My Classic Sh#tbox”, with Dennis Gage and Fred Sanford ??

Hilarious…..

 
Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 15:06:42

-”This Old Cardboard Box”

Everytime I happened to bump into “This Old House” I would always be blown away by the amount of dough people would dump into those money pits. More money than I’ll ever see, that’s for sure.

 
 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 08:20:22

I see crudes back over $85.00. Most likely go back over $90.00 just in time for winter.

 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 08:45:23

The bauble-heads are saying that the DOW is on a tear due to the fact the EU-PIGS will be saved/bailed out. What’s new about that?

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 09:06:37

Greek one year bonds (at 150% interest) say no…

 
Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 09:18:59

What’s the saying around here? Trade the same 500 pts over and over?

Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 15:03:51

Churn-it-baby….

 
 
Comment by Neuromance
2011-10-10 10:54:52

Everyone wants to be the first in, which chases the market up on the good news. Then they want to be the first out, which chases the market down on the bad news.

Add to that computerized algorithm trading and I think that helps explain the large swings on bits of news.

Does anyone really think this piece of news is the end of the European debt crisis?

Comment by Blue Skye
2011-10-10 13:22:52

They are just borrowing more, right? Seems to work for the US.

/snark

 
 
 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 10:19:19

Children to be banned from blowing up balloons, under EU safety rules. By Bruno Waterfield, Brussels. The Telegraph

Children are to be banned from taking part in traditional Christmas games, from blowing up balloons to blowing on party whistles, because of new EU safety rules that have just entered into force.

The EU toy safety directive, agreed and implemented by Government, states that balloons must not be blown up by unsupervised children under the age of eight, in case they accidentally swallow them and choke.

Despite having been popular favourites for generations of children, party games including whistles and magnetic fishing games are to be banned because their small parts or chemicals used in making them are decreed to be too risky.

Apparently harmless toys that children have enjoyed for decades are now regarded by EU regulators as posing an unacceptable safety risk.

Whistle blowers, that scroll out into a a long coloured paper tongue when sounded – a party favourite at family Christmas meals – are now classed as unsafe for all children under 14.

The new rules are designed to protect children from the chance that a piece of the whistle could be swallowed and cause choking.

The EU directive will also force manufacturers and retailers to attach safety warnings to toys hitherto regarded as harmless.

Official guidance notes: “For latex balloons there must be a warning that children under eight years must be supervised and broken balloons should be discarded.” Frank Furedi, professor of sociology at the University of Kent, warned that toy safety bans were part of a trend to micro-manage children’s lives at the expense of allowing them to explore, learn and have fun through play.

“Toys and activities, such as blowing up balloons, are part and parcel of the type of children’s play that helps them become independent and self-reliant,” he said.

“These bans diminish the experience, both of having fun and learning, by turning play into a danger zone with rules that stifle life and adventure for children.” Under the EU legislation, Britain will have to ensure that toys are not sold in shops unless they fully comply with the new safety requirements.

As well as new rules for balloons and party whistles, the EU legislation will impose restrictions on how noisy toys, including rattles or musical instruments, are allowed to be.

All teddie bears meant for children under the age of three will now have to be fully washable because EU regulators are concerned that dirty cuddly toys could spread disease and infection.

Paul Nuttall, a member of the European Parliament’s consumer safety committee, said the “kill joy” world of EU officialdom was being ill-equipped to understand the concept of children having fun.

“I would say that this is crackers but I sure children are banned from using them too. EU party poopers should not be telling families how to blow up balloons,” said the Ukip MEP.

British toy manufacturers are concerned that the new rules, which include defining colouring books and anything played with by under-14s, could drive up the price of Christmas presents because of the cost of safety tests.

Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 10:29:11

Well duh. Kids under 8 NEED to be constantly supervised.

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2011-10-10 13:19:29

EU Directive brought to you by the Burgermeister Meisterburger.

Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 14:54:11

Now I’m hungry.

 
 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 10:36:55

~ Economist Ken Rogoff (Harvard) went on National Public Radio to suggest that the Federal Reserve ought to pump up inflation to 5 percent or so to perk up the economy. He explained that it would help debtors to pay back their obligations in cheaper money.

A Mr. Hugh Everett responded to the Rogoff idea:

“We are witnessing the collapse of Global Socialism. The idea that governments can print monopoly money, punish achievement through progressive taxation, create a nation of government workers stamping each others’ documents, and reward sloth through transfer payment hand outs, is being proven a Great Lie in places like Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain, California, and New York.”

Comment by measton
2011-10-10 11:19:21

IT will only help debtors if that money ends up in their pockets.
If on the other hand it is used by WS to drive up the price of food and fuel. The debtor is going to have a harder time paying off his debt.

We are watching the destruction of the middle class
via manipulation of markets, oligopoly /monopoly on a global scale/ and the take over of our gov by the elite.

Achievement what has WS achieved??

Comment by rms
2011-10-10 12:41:23

“We are watching the destruction of the middle class…”

+1 Living it too.

 
 
Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 11:55:05

I wouldn’t care that these people live in an entierly different world than the real one if weren’t for the fact that they have so much control over ours.

 
Comment by WT Economist
2011-10-10 12:05:50

Rogoff and Reinhardt are the people who got it right — the fundamental problem is a massive public and private debt party (no, it wasn’t just or even mostly the government) that left debts that can’t be repaid.

The options are default, or back door default via inflation. The question is how the distribution of the pain for the two kinds of default correspond with the distribution of benefits during the national orgy.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 14:41:06

The question is whether the default will be one which will wipe out Main Street Mom and Pop retirees (inflation) or one which will wipe out large creditors, such as pension funds, mutual funds, and investment banks (outright default).

I have my personal hunch…

 
 
Comment by Neuromance
2011-10-10 13:55:44

Great idea. Making borrowing more lucrative at the expense of retirees and other savers. Inflation is a stealth tax, a transfer of wealth from the public to the financial sector, who profit from the debt.

But, it helps the banks, the Cornerstone Of The Economy ™.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 18:04:03

Inflation = Economists’s panacea for insolvency crisis…

Never mind the retirees who will get screwed out of the future value of their pensions.

 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 10:45:21

Greeks pay for economic crisis with their health.
Helena Smith in Athens and Sarah Boseley
The Guardian

Rising demand and cost-cutting put services at breaking point, while drug addiction, HIV and suicide rates increase

It is 4am on the emergency ward of Evangelismos general hospital - the biggest in Greece - and the stream of patients is relentless. Dr Michalis Samarkos has not stopped working since he started his shift some 14 hours earlier, and he has been besieged by patients unable to afford the tests or the drugs they need.

Many, like the unemployed diabetic man he has just examined, have gone without treatment for several days. “When you see a diabetic unable to afford his insulin you know he is going to die,” says Samarkos. “There is no infrastructure to help these people. On every front the system has failed the people it was meant to serve.”

Greeks are paying for their economic disaster with their health, according to a new study.

In a letter to the Lancet medical journal, a team lead by Dr Alexander Kentikelenis and Dr David Stuckler from Cambridge University and Professor Martin McKee from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine warns of a potential “Greek tragedy”. They point to signs of a dramatic decline in the health of the population and a deterioration of services at hospitals under financial pressure.

Many Greeks have lost access to healthcare coverage through work and social security plans, and rising poverty levels mean growing numbers who would previously have used the private sector are now flocking to state hospitals. Alongside savage spending cuts, the rise has put an immense strain on a chaotic and corrupt system that was already in decline.

Hospital budgets dropped by 40% between 2007 and 2009, say the Lancet authors. There are reports of understaffing, shortages of medical supplies and patients paying bribes to medical staff to jump queues.

“There are signs that health outcomes have worsened, especially in vulnerable groups,” write the experts. There was a 14% rise in the number of Greeks reporting their health as “bad” or “very bad” between 2007 and 2009.

Suicides rose by 17% during the same period, and unofficial 2010 data quoted in parliament mention a 25% rise compared with 2009. The health minister reported a 40% rise in the first half of 2011 compared with the same period in 2010.

“The national suicide helpline reported that 25% of callers faced financial difficulties in 2010 and reports in the media indicate that the inability to repay high levels of personal debt might be a key factor in the increase in suicides,” the Lancet authors write. “Violence has also risen, and homicide and theft rates nearly doubled between 2007 and 2009.”

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2011-10-10 10:58:37

Let’s not lose sight of what’s really important here: that the banksters get their money with interest.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 18:06:11

Who cares about a slightly higher Greek suicide rate? So long as the banksters get made whole and then some, it’s all good.

 
 
Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 12:00:20

So they’re adopting the American model?

 
Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 12:48:34

Many Greeks have lost access to healthcare coverage through work and social security plans, and rising poverty levels mean growing numbers who would previously have used the private sector are now flocking to state hospitals. Alongside savage spending cuts, the rise has put an immense strain on a chaotic and corrupt system that was already in decline.

The public option/government run health care is not utopia…?

Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 14:56:07

…and more illness and death is better?

Can you even hear yourself?

 
Comment by polly
2011-10-10 15:06:39

Name any health system that can instantly adjust to a vast increase of patients needing to use its services.

 
Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 15:10:47

public option/government run health care is not utopia…?

Not sure…Have not participated in that option yet…But I can tell you, if you are older without some union or government medical insurance, privately run health care Ins. is hell on earth…

 
 
 
Comment by SOLD IN 04
2011-10-10 11:06:33

Today, California invests in the dreams of talented undocumented students and in the economic future of our state. I applaud Governor Brown for signing AB 131 into law and affirming the students’ role in creating a bright and prosperous future for California. With California facing a deficit of one million college graduates by 2025, this law makes the most sense for our economy and society.The Mexican Mafia strkes again..turning calif into a 3rd world state. read victor david hansen article 2 californias,just google it ( amazing read)

Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 12:12:48

In. Sane.

Seriously, when did our leaders becoime traitors for Mexico and China and any other country who signed big enough checks?

 
Comment by rms
2011-10-10 16:51:34

“An observer from Mars might conclude that our elites and masses have given up on the ideal of integration and assimilation, perhaps in the wake of the arrival of 11 to 15 million illegal aliens.”

The irony is that Victor Davis Hanson, a Hover Institute conservative, was probably fawning all over a likeness of Ronald Reagan during the recent 100th birthday celebration without ever once realizing that this Mexican infestation was once deemed an economic miracle.

 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 11:08:52

Another plant heading south of the boarder…

ITEM: Manitowoc plant closing begins in December

TWO RIVERS, Wis. (AP) — Thermo Fisher Scientific will begin shutting down its Two River plant beginning Dec. 5.

The company has notified the state Department of Workforce Development that the closure is expected to take a couple months. The move will affect approximately 140 employees.

The plant makes steel lab equipment. WLUK-TV says the production will be moved to a facility in Mexico. The company also has a wood manufacturing plant in Two Rivers. It says no decision has been made on the future of that plant.

 
Comment by whyoung
2011-10-10 11:14:22

Surprise! Who’s not paying federal income tax?

The lowest-income Americans — those who make less than $25,000 a year — account for the largest number of those not paying any federal income tax: 76% as of 2009. But that share has been decreasing for years. Meanwhile, the percentage of nontaxable returns has been growing for people with higher incomes. As of 2009, more than 20,000 filers making more than $200,000 a year — 1,470 of whom had adjusted gross income of more than $1 million — owed no income tax

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/story/2011-10-06/income-tax-nonpayment/50676912/1

Comment by turkey lurkey
2011-10-10 12:05:05

I guess the author didn’t get the memo that when the poor pay no taxes, they’re lazy slackers, but when the rich pay no taxes, it’s class warfare to point it out.

I hope the author has updated thier resume.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2011-10-10 13:26:51

The good news is that a lot more of us will fall into the under $25,000 group in the next few years.

Comment by In Colorado
2011-10-10 15:03:29

You too can be a Lucky Ducky!

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2011-10-10 16:37:53

I know terrible reporting

But poor people pay TONS of taxes…15% of my Con ed bill pays for their NYC real estate taxes

car taxes, phone taxes, cable taxes state gas taxes, metro card, all regressive to poor people……

 
Comment by Kirisdad
2011-10-10 17:04:13

Read the story, those making $75,000-100,000 are the fastest growing group that are not paying income taxes.Sounds unbelievable, but I think it’s true. We don’t have a spending problem, we have a revenue problem.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-10-10 11:32:45

Filed under: “Take the money and,…RUN!” (back to Iceland…) ;-)

Whitey Bulger Undone by a Former Miss Iceland, and His Own Kindness:

By David Stout | October 10, 2011 / Main Justice

The former Miss Iceland recognized “Charlie” and “Carole” at once and called the FBI. After 16 years, Whitey’s days on the run from a variety of charges back in Boston were over, and Anna Bjornsdottir was about to be $2 million richer, thanks to the reward for Bulger’s capture

Anna Bjornsdottir, a former actress and Miss Iceland of 1974, was living in Santa Monica, Calif., when she noticed her neighbors Charlie and Carole Gasko feeding a stray cat a couple times a day. So Anna would stop and chat with Charlie and Carole. Anna learned that the Gaskos even took the tiger-striped cat to the veterinarian when it got sick.

Anyhow, maybe the kindness toward the cat shows that Bulger, who just turned 82, is mellowing after decades in which he robbed people, beat up people and allegedly had a role in a score of murders. Or maybe not.

 
Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 12:04:03

RE: my landlord’s name is Fannie!

Fannie Mae’s rep(a lying realtor; making buck managing props for Fannie) just came by and I am home(no sub job today) to receive her notice. Not bad as I was expecting a sheriff with an eviction notice.

She asked if I was the owner. I said no. She assumed I was a renter, so as such I am going to be given the opportunity to lease this property from Fannie Mae(at a price she said would be less than I pay now; there she goes assuming again. I did not feel the need to correct her that I don’t pay rent per se; I just live here with my wife) The opportunity to lease also extends to former borrowers as well according to the paperwork, just being an occupant like my wife actually is may gives one the same opportunity to make Fannie your landlord.

I have ten days to indicate my desire for continuing to rent from Fannie (her assumption that I was leasing, that I may just run with) or take cash for keys (which I thought they had discontinued). Not sure if being a “tenant” or being the ex-borrower gets one a better offer from Fannie.
The lying realtor has given me a glaringly enticing, obvious chance to become an accidental tenant.

The end result being that Fannie rakes in a little dough for the property and we don’t have to move just yet; is that a good thing? I suppose coming clean regarding the ex-owner, my wife, being the occupant of record, will be the best unless I want to become a realtor, then I would be required to lie as much as possible anyway, and becoming an accidental tenant would be no brainer.

But I suppose I will tell the realtor that I have no lease, I pay no rent, my wife is the occupant; even if it results in our eviction, and no cash for keys….sigh.

Being a “tenant” would allow me to:

A. rent from Fannie on a 12 month lease, with cash assistance at the end
B. rent from Fannie on a month to month
C. go for cash for keys, max amt. given upon clean vacancy within 14 days; less if you take 30 days, etc.

It would likely require me to conjure up a retroactive rental agreement dating back to before my wife stopped paying; I don’t think I want to go there; could have tax implications(as wife did not declare any rental income on taxes) or worse, I suppose.

Fun times of uncertainty; we actually have a rental closer to school we are looking at, but it’s not a done deal yet. I sure am glad my wife likes me or this would be hell to compete in the foreclosure hokey pokey game.

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 12:52:28

You are playing with fire.

Contact a lawyer.

Comment by mikeinbend
2011-10-10 13:51:34

Key word: playing(and I appreciate your concern, but we actually have a promising rental lined up)
I would not, could not do it(fabricate a phony lease or do any action that would get me in trouble with the IRS or the law); my wife is gonna tell the agent that her husband has been living here rent free and that she is the one occupying the prop; they will either rent her the place or have her sign an agreement to leave.

We, the occupants, have 10 days to answer the new property manager.

Just pointing out that Fannie is offering 12 month leases; which some of you may find interesting. And having a little fun spitballing the possibilities for someone willing to lie(which I am not: I am NOT a realtor yet!)

And that realtors are getting forced from sales to short sales to foreclosure sales into property management to help make $$; even in cahoots with Fannie.

Comment by Muggy
2011-10-10 18:38:33

“Just pointing out that Fannie is offering 12 month leases; which some of you may find interesting.”

Thanks for sharing. That drives me crazy.

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Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 12:21:31

Print,baby print…Pump, baby pump! Won’t be much longer until we get another big dose of the money magic, from BB.

U.S. Stocks Rise Nearly 3% on Merkel Pledge ~ Bloomberg

Stocks rallied and the euro surged the most since July 2010 versus the dollar after the leaders of France and Germany pledged to deliver a plan to stem the debt crisis. Commodities gained for a fourth day.

The Standard & Poor’s 500 Index surged 2.8 percent to 1,187.54 at 2:16 p.m. New York time. The Stoxx Europe 600 Index climbed 1.7 percent to cap a four-day rally of 8.5 percent, its largest over that stretch of time since November 2008. The 17- nation euro currency appreciated 2.1 percent versus the dollar as it strengthened against 11 of 16 major peers. The S&P GSCI gauge of raw materials increased 2.1 percent. Costs to protect against a European sovereign default decreased.

The S&P 500 has rebounded more than 8 percent from a 13- month low on Oct. 3 amid optimism that European leaders will succeed in taming the debt crisis and as U.S. economic data topped estimates. German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy said yesterday they will deliver a plan to recapitalize European banks and address the Greek debt crisis by the Nov. 3 Group of 20 summit. Reports this week may show U.S. retail sales increased in September at the fastest pace in six months, adding to evidence that growth is rebounding.

 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 12:37:30

REPORT: The Major Banks Are About To Strike A Big, $20 Billion Foreclosure Settlement. Joe Weisenthal|Oct. 10, 2011

California AG Kamala Harris is not on board

The big banks are all up nicely, in part, perhaps, because of a Fox Business report about how they’re about to sign a foreclosure-gate settlement with the DoJ and most states attorneys general.

A $20 billion settlement, which would go in part to some kind of victim “fund” could be hammered out in a matter of days.

Here’s the thing though: The last news from this front was that California had dropped out of talks, and so without California, it’s hard to imagine that any deal would involve the finality.

It’s also not clear that New York would be on board.

And of course, this is only one slice of the legal problems facing the banks: Notably this has nothing to do with the FHFA lawsuits on behalf of Fannie and Freddy.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2011-10-10 14:43:41

The #Occupy crowd should really be screaming about this.

 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 12:42:24

CTA to cut more than 200 jobs to save $22 million
Associated Press, 10.10.11

CHICAGO — The Chicago Transit Authority said Monday that it’s going to eliminate more than 200 jobs.

The CTA said the cuts will include layoffs and eliminating vacant positions. Many of the job cuts include senior-level positions, like vice presidents and directors. The cuts will save the CTA about $22 million a year. Last week CTA president Forrest Claypool said the agency faces a $277 million budget shortfall for 2012. Claypool said Monday the agency has “to find ways to do more with less.”

CTA officials said they’ve pared management and the agency has the fewest employeees in its history. The CTA has 25 percent fewer employees than it did a decade ago.

Agency officials also said they’re revising sick and vacation policies. That will save about $15 million over six years.

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 13:07:11

$37 million closed on a $277 million budget shortfall does not a plan make.

Where does all the money go?

There are those words again.

Insane public union contracts.

I will put up a case that these “public servants” will SHUT DOWN the ENTIRE Chicago Transit System (roads, buses and trains) before they give back anything on their insane benefits and pensions…

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 13:22:41

“….job cuts include senior level positions…..vice-presidents and directors….”

Don’t sound like union goons to me.

Comment by 2banana
2011-10-10 13:57:40

$277-$37 million = $240 million more to go in cuts…

Hmmmm - where next?

Hint: Where MOST of the money goes.

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Comment by AVOCAD0
2011-10-11 15:15:30

Hmmmm - where next?

Military?

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 12:47:43

Public Debt closing in on $15 trillion.

As of October 6th Congress had put the nation in hock for $14.837 trillion. That’s only the Public Debt, not the un-funded liabilities dangling over the head of tomorrow’s taxpayers.

The federal government only has to borrow another $163 billion to reach the staggering level of $15 trillion. It won’t take long.

← From 1792 through 1862 the national debt was calculated only in the millions of dollars. In 1863 it bumped into the billions for the first time. . .the expense of the Civil War being the chief cause.

The debt remained under $2 billion until World War 1. It climbed to $72 billion in 1942 and stayed in the billions through 1980.

In 1982 the debt level hit a trillion dollars for the first time! A trillion dollars is 1,000 billion! And today the debt is nearly 15 times greater than it was barely 30 years ago.

 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 12:51:44

Online banks booming as angry customers flee financial giants
More and more bank fees are nudging some customers to switch
~MSNBC

PerkStreet, which launched in late 2009, is part of a new breed of online-only bank — all aiming to capture consumers looking to escape fee increases at more established banks.

Bank of America isn’t the only institution to come under fire after raising fees. In a recent mailing to its customers Citibank said it would double the monthly service charge on EZ Checking accounts from $7.50 to $15, in November.

Citibank said it has been encouraged by the response of its customers and is using the opportunity to help them understand the diversity of account options, including no fees on debit cards or online services, said Citibank spokesperson Catherine Pulley. On Wednesday, Bank of America’s CEO defended the bank’s new $5 fee saying the bank has a right “to make a profit.”

Freebies offered
In contrast, a PerkStreet’s no-fee checking account is free to open with a $25 minimum and earns debit-card rewards, including free coffee, music or cash. Online-only ING Direct’s free Electric Orange Account earns 0.24 percent interest on accounts of up to $49,999. Free interest checking accounts at online Ally Bank have variable interest rates based on monthly balance, and no monthly fees.

Big banks defend the new fees and hikes as necessary to recoup revenues lost due to recently enacted consumer protection laws, but the consumer zeitgeist is quickly changing, as evidenced by the Occupy Wall Street protests. O’Malley said he thinks this moment will be remembered as a turning point for consumer banking. The American Bankers Association is pointing the finger at government regulations as being a root cause of its fee increases, even as the general perception on Main Street is that the new fees are just revenue grabs by greedy bankers.

Brick-and-mortar banks are seeing large numbers of customers shift to online banking, which has had an effect on the popularity of branch banking. For the first time since 1995, the number of branch storefronts in the United States dropped last year, according to the American Bankers Association. A recent ABA survey showed that 62 percent of banking customers prefer online transactions — a huge increase from the 32 percent who felt that way in 2009. Spokespeople at Bank of America and Citibank couldn’t be reached immediately for comment for this article.

Brick and mortar has advantages
Online banks like PerkStreet, ING Direct and Ally Bank, all face certain common challenges, such as how to deal with actual paper checks, and how to give a human touch to customer service. Customer reviews on MyBankTracker, an open forum for customers to review financial products, showed that deposit turnaround and customer service are two of the biggest sources of complaints for online banks in general.

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 13:18:14

I guess “Consumer Protection Laws” only apply to the big banks, because they seem to be the only banks trying to bill extra fees.

 
Comment by Neuromance
2011-10-10 15:40:30

Banks make mistakes. I need a place I can walk into and pound my fist on the table. And have someone there who can fix it. That’s why I’m not comfortable with the completely virtual banks.

 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 13:16:15

(Way) off topic question……

Can anyone tell me why pillows (you know, the kind that goes on a bed) are so crazy-expensive???? Even the Chinese ones?

It’s just a cloth bag, with feathers or artificial stuffing, fer chrissakes….. not a whole lot of high tech engineering involved. My six year old nephew could design one……

Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 13:28:27

I don’t know about the price of pillows, but I do know I will no longer be buying Mayfields Ice-Cream. It’s up to just under $6.00 for a 1.5 quart container in our stores. Damn!

Comment by scdave
2011-10-10 15:18:55

If you like ice-cream you will still buy it..I will give you a week… :)

 
 
Comment by AVOCAD0
2011-10-11 15:17:44

cheap at Costco or Ross.

same price as a burrito only larger

 
 
Comment by WMBZ
2011-10-10 14:00:44

Lots of very good news today!

DOW 13,OOO here we come. The U.S. will not slip back into recession, according to many super smart experts.

Germany will fire up the money pumps even more.

We (U.S.) will be loading the IMF to the gills with new money.
Althought it will be done without the chumps/taxpayers knowing or being told.

The euro-zone and it’s pigs may only need $6.5 trillion more to fix their “problems”. According to euro-zone experts.

The great Bernake stands at the ready to load the banks pockets/tills again and again!

Looks like a very Merry Christmas to be sure, for the 1%.

The OWS crowd is sh!t out of luck.

Comment by Neuromance
2011-10-10 15:37:43

According to The One Percent, we just need to leave the financial markets alone. Clearly they need no regulation. Just the occasional massive infusion of wealth, extracted not from us, but from future generations.

What exactly are the best, probable and worst case scenarios if we don’t? Now, now citizen: Patriotism means No Questions.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 18:08:08

“Clearly they need no regulation.”

No regulation + no observation = no harm, no foul.

 
 
Comment by AVOCAD0
2011-10-11 15:21:43

rumor has it, the OWS and the Tea Party have a lot in common… more so than the enemy (1%ers)

the enemy of my enemy is my friend

 
 
Comment by Neuromance
2011-10-10 14:40:54

I’ve been hearing over and over that the breakup of the Eurozone would be ‘horrific’ (the Economist), catastrophic and would cost many countries 40-50% of their GDP in the first year after it.

How?

I remember hearing the voodoo fear rattles shaken at us during the runup to the Iraq War. I keep hearing about how No Banker Left Behind is essential to keeping our economy from sinking further, and now I hear what I perceive to be hyperbole about the breakup of the Eurozone.

What are the possible scenarios, best case to worst case?

Comment by skroodle
2011-10-10 17:28:45

The problem is that a lot of people and a lot of banks have loans denominated in Euros. If the Euro goes away and is replaced, by say the Drachma in Greece, they will be paid and Drachmas and start paying those loans back in Drachma.

It will take a lot of Drachmas to pay back those loans.

Comment by Neuromance
2011-10-10 18:28:02

X drachmas = N units of value.
Y Euros = N units of value.

Whether it’s drachmas or euros shouldn’t matter. The loan amount should represent the same amount of value. This is what the exchange rate would determine.

 
 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-10-10 14:44:09

Spoken like one of us

http://tinyurl.com/3vj9axf

See bankster die. (Note: figuratively)

Die bankster die…..

 
Comment by Muggy
2011-10-10 18:43:52

Got a call for a TV show theme… working on a demo. We used to get paid for these things. Now it’s all or nothing if you lose. Luckily, I play all of my own instruments so I am not out cash if I lose.

Comment by aNYCdj
2011-10-10 19:32:02

Muggy:

I hear ya man……Here is the show i can still work on for very little pay…

http://www.poormansnation.com/index.html

on from 10pm -1am est live fromNYC..it was supposed to be full time and paid.

 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 21:55:47

Oct. 10, 2011, 10:55 a.m. EDT
A Greater Depression is coming
By Thomas H. Kee Jr.

Amazing as it sounds, the degree of uncertainty has actually increased on the heels of last week’s rebound, and the debates running through the Streets, from “Occupy Wall Street” to “My Big Fat Greek Default,” have investors at odds with each other. Quelling such emotional behavior takes time, but the emotions that run high at the tail end of market drubbings are almost always the same. We have all probably read the Book, “The Tipping Point,” and the Market seems to be at a trough - based emotional tipping point right now. Everyone wants answers, but no one is getting the answers they are looking for, at least not yet, and therefore volatility and debate run rabid through the Streets. In every respect, my reference to The Street is to Wall Street, and to Pennsylvania Avenue. Unfortunately, I find these joined at the hip in the debate that has now gone viral.

“Occupy Wall Street” is something that will grow, and in the years to come I expect this to be a very serious campaign. Now is not the time, but eventually this campaign might become the face of the Greater Depression I have warned about. The U.S. economy, and probably the global economy, as a result are headed towards a Greater Depression, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it now, as far as I can see. This is inevitable based on simple demographics, and the only saving grace may be China, but China seems to have gotten so far ahead of itself that eventually it too will fall.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 21:58:08

Oct. 11, 2011, 12:36 a.m. EDT
The inflation balloon is rapidly losing air
By Irwin Kellner, MarketWatch

PORT WASHINGTON, N.Y. (MarketWatch) — Don’t look now but in just a few months, inflation fears have suddenly taken a back seat to other, more pressing concerns.

Five months ago, the concern du jour in the financial markets was inflation. This was not unreasonable, in view of all the liquidity that the Federal Reserve had pumped into the banking system.

Many participants remembered vividly the admonition of the great economist Milton Friedman, who said that inflation was first and foremost a monetary phenomenon.

But that was then, this is now.

Revised data for the first half of this year show that growth in our gross domestic product slowed to a crawl – an average annual rate of less than 1%. Monthly figures since then suggest that this sluggish pace continued well into the third quarter.

On top of this, economic policy has tightened during the year and is likely to get even tighter in the months ahead, given the current climate in Washington.

You can best see this in the employment stats that the Bureau of Labor Statistics releases every month. While private sector employment has been growing for almost two years – albeit at a lethargic clip – government payrolls have been shrinking steadily, making the overall payroll data look even worse.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 21:59:43

Oct. 10, 2011, 7:08 p.m. EDT
China selloff reflects lower credibility: analysts
By Dinny McMahon

BEIJING (MarketWatch) — China’s sovereign-wealth fund stepped in Monday to buy shares of the country’s battered banks, which have been caught in a selloff that analysts say partly reflects a loss of trust in the integrity of government statistics and corporate earnings.

The skepticism of investors comes as China has become increasingly exposed to global markets, largely through stock listings of its state-owned enterprises and other companies, but more recently through its currency and bonds, which are now traded in Hong Kong.

The market rout began among a group of small U.S.-listed companies accused of fraud and quickly has spread to other Chinese assets available to overseas investors. Stock investors are fleeing China’s state banking giants partly on fears that they aren’t coming clean about their bad-debt problems after several years of blow-out lending.

Investors also are selling high-flying Internet companies such as Baidu Inc. (BIDU, K3SD.SG) as there are questions about hidden ownership risks. And they are fleeing property stocks on fear that Beijing’s inflation-fighting efforts have left developers and buyers in hock to illegitimate financiers.

Sentiment has even turned more cautious on China’s currency, the yuan. It faced rare downward pressure in recent weeks as some investors bought the safe-haven U.S. dollar and others worried about potential for a slowing Chinese economy. On Monday, though, the yuan rose to a high, which traders attributed to easing concerns about a shortage of dollars in the market.

Enthusiasm is waning for Chinese bonds issued in Hong Kong–so-called dim sum bonds–that Western bankers have been touting to their corporate customers as the next big financial investment story.

Analysts say that after years of downplaying risk, many investors now appear to be fearful that other aspects of China’s economy may also not be as they seem. They are questioning the credibility of official numbers that show continued rapid growth in China’s economy, one of the last remaining major engines of the global economy.

Pessimism about China’s prospects has grown so deep that some investors are betting against not only its stocks but its government debt, which by all accounts is safe. The net value of outstanding credit-default swaps on debt issued by the Chinese government nearly doubled, to $8.34 billion at the end of September from a year earlier, according to data from the New York-based Depository Trust & Clearing Corp.

“People don’t trust the government statistics, they don’t trust corporate earnings, they don’t trust [comments] from government officials,” said Daiwa Securities Ltd. economist Sun Mingchun. “Investors are saying, I don’t know who I should listen to.”

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2011-10-10 22:02:12

Oct. 11, 2011, 12:01 a.m. EDT
Why Jim Rogers is right about commodities
Commentary: Heeding advice from a U.S. market bear and China bull
By John Prestbo

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Jim Rogers, a former partner of George Soros in the hedge fund game, has been vociferously bullish on commodities for going on 15 years. Except for getting older, married and becoming a parent, he has not changed.

I ran into him in late September at a commodities conference in Frankfurt. He told the assembled burghers that in 10 years the conference would have to be held in a stadium rather than a hotel meeting room, because commodities by then would be a red hot asset class and investors would be flocking to it.

Here are some of Rogers’s comments. Even after applying the true-believer discount, they offer a feast for thought:

“The 19th Century was the age of Britain, the 20th Century was the age of America, and the 21st Century will be the age of China,” Rogers said. He has moved from New York to Singapore with his wife and two young daughters, who he says are now fluent in Mandarin.
Down on dollar-based investments

“The U.S. dollar has started fading as the world’s reserve currency,” Rogers said, assailing what he called the U.S. government’s de facto policy of devaluation.

“However, the dollar could get a temporary boost if the government allows U.S. companies to repatriate their overseas cash without onerous taxation,” he said.

“The 30-year bull market in bonds is about to come to an end,” Rogers said. “Bond portfolio managers should start looking for a different line of work.”

 
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