The Housing Bubble

If that is true, shouldn’t people who have a lot of late payments (justification for imposing fees) have higher scores?

Probably too liable to default for that particular stat to raise your fico. Although it looks profitable; too hard to collect the monthlies once default occurs.

I think the best profit profile is someone who has CC debt, had it for awhile, and pays minimally but faithfully.

I liked the one where the Banking Clan wanted to charge the Republic usurious interest rates to finance the war against the separatists (TV show, not movies).

I’m pretty much convinced that to be in mid to upper management in Corporate America requires being a sociopath (not having a conscience). I recall reading that 10% of the population is believed to have sociopathic tendencies.

Goldman execs live in thier own little world. One where they are always in the right.

“I would imagine Goldman higher ups slept a wee bit less soundly last night as well.”

Goldman Sachs plutocrats know that 95% of the US electorate are sheep who will mindlessly vote for the status quo. They have no reason to worry.

Didn’t see it. What did he say?

Pre-warning - an interview on a show like 60 minutes is not a place to get unvarnished truth from any high level official. The answers are carefully crafted to be truthful, but probably not the entire story.

Oh, and I didn’t see the interview. Want to summarize what he said? I could try to give you are reaction.

Its was in the news this morning….Handgun sales spiked way up on Black Friday with woman leading the way in purchases…

http://designhistorylab.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/07-1972-daisy-ad-218×300.jpg

(we’re mostly a black-powder family, but really eyes would not want a 44 cal. mini-ball flying towards my person, 3/4″ oak boards don’t fair well either.)

Hmmm maybe I can get a good price for my 1911 right now.

Help me out here. What am I supposed to be so afraid of that I should purchase a gun?

Geez eastcoaster, it’s everywhere:

Buy Gold! Buy Gold! Buy Gold!
Peak Oil! Peak Oil! Peak Oil!
Buy guns! Buy guns! Buy guns!
Birth Certificate! Birth Certificate! Birth Certificate!

Fear! Fear! Fear!,…it sell$

WRT supposed to be afraid of, see also Jon Ronson’s excellent book Them

Sorry to rain on the gun parade, but I had an up close and personal encounter with someone who was personally affected. He was one of the victims of the January 8 shootings, and he is barely walking. Has to use a cane and probably will need it for the rest of his life.

We were both at the inauguration for the new mayor of Tucson, and he came in late. I saw him hobbling down the aisle with a cane. He was searching for an empty seat, and I motioned him over to the one next to me.

Although several of the speakers mentioned January 8, I didn’t bring it up in our conversation. I figured that he’s heard more than enough about it already. News stories say that he’s still dealing with major PTSD.

nope. never met one.

Do expand…

Imagine world peace? First, imagine a world without banks.

If that happens then (with apologies to Gabe Kaplan) welcome back barter.

You need to do some reading Dr. Lechter.

Do expand…

Oh, he might means the ones where Jesus-of-Oaxaca displayed GOD’s human ver$ion of: “TrueAnger™”

—-Oh, he might means the ones where Jesus-of-Oaxaca displayed GOD’s human ver$ion of: “TrueAnger™”—–

Ahhh… I seeee. Thanks

I once new a Jesus-of-New Brunswick. Nice guy. Had moved there from Puerto Rico and did (ironically) some pretty good carpentry.

I once new a Jesus-of-New Brunswick. Nice guy. Had moved there from Puerto Rico and did (ironically) some pretty good carpentry.

Could be, you never know, tribes everywhere.

You know what? I’m going to side with evildoc on this one. Explain to me what was so bad about the money changers. It may require a correction of my understanding of the story.

Palestine was conquered by Rome, so the money used in general transactions was Roman money. That money had pictures of the emperor on it. Money was needed to do certain things at the Temple, like buy animals and birds for offerings. The priests refused to let people use Roman money to buy these animals and birds because of the image on the coin, so people had to exchange their regular money for “priest-approved” money in order to carry out these transactions. (Kind of like a person with cash having to buy a preloaded debit card in order to buy stuff on-line.)

There were business people who exchanged regular money for the religious money. Those people made something on the transactions to compensate them for their time, for carrying fairly expensive inventory, and figuring out how to convert the Roman money they received for their new inventory (if it was easy, the money changers wouldn’t have been needed).

I see a lot of places to get angry in this story. Being conquered by a foreign empire. Having to use money that offends your religious sensibilities. Having to buy the animals in a place where regular money couldn’t be used. Having to buy the animals in the first place when your society is no longer made up pretty much entirely of herders/farmers who have their own animals to sacrifice. Maybe a few more.

Where are the ones who change the Roman money for religiously approved money the bad guys? They are a nice symbol of the situation and they are located on site for a rant to be made against them, but how are they the real problem?

nope. never met one.

Do expand…

I’m guessing you’re being a wise guy, but I’ll go for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple

“And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all of them who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”

— Matthew 21:12-13

Yeah, and make that “knew” not “new”. Need my morning coffee

and the seats of them that sold doves

Cheney-$hrub as year 2001 dove seller$: “He’s my hero.”

—And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.—

Shocked I am that a new religion has issues with the religion from which it breaks away. Teens resent Dad often, too.

Where are the ones who change the Roman money for religiously approved money the bad guys?

(Maybe it had something to do with the type clothes they diSplayed, their houSes-on-the-hills & the happy $miles they wore on their faces.)

But hey, I’m with the little girl who only saw an old man tying holes together with a piece of rope!

And He said “you worthless whore!” when the poor widow begged for mercy. The disciples laughed with gusto.

-Gospel according to Lechter

I think Jesus was pissed about the existence of commerce in the Temple. He didn’t really give a damn (hee-hee) about the existence of commerce in general (although he does sound like a commie in a lot of his statements), or the fact that Rome was dominating Palestine. “Render unto caesar what is caesar’s” pretty much meant do what you need to do in this insignificant physical world. The spiritual world is what really matters. And he clearly didn’t want commerce to be in it.

It is the only place in the bible where Jesus uses physical force. Maybe he really did have it in for the banksters, which is what the moneychangers were. The priests were their ‘government’ cronies/regulators, who gave them the business concession- I’m sure in exchange for hefty ‘contributions’.

Same as it ever was.

Christians (and Muslims) are not allowed to charge interest.

Money changers are sinners.

Changing one form of money to another form of money does not involve charging interest (and there were no Christians or Muslims at the time or the alleged incident). Interest is when you charge someone for the use of money over time. There might be a fee for converting one form of money for another form of money. After all, in order to do it you have to keep a bunch of the other money around (which means you can’t do other useful things with it) and you have to protect it and you have to spend your time, etc. I get charged a small amount when I use my credit card in another country and my bank has to convert the money I pay them in (US$) to the other kind of money (ususally CA$) in order to give the merchant their payment, but it isn’t an interest charge.

If the money changers were all crooks with bad scales or some other such thing, that is different. But the problem isn’t that they are money changers. It is that they are crooks.

The regulation of the money in the Temple may seem absurd to us. I don’t consider the pictures on the bills I use as particularly important. But I imagine it was a big deal back then. I don’t think you can automatically assume that the priests created the rule in order to get kick backs from money changers.

The point is that control of money always attracts thieves and eventually the system become corrupt.

Without. Fail.

Explain to me what was so bad about the money changers.

Maybe Jesus just got tired of the lies?

Jesus: How much is this goat?

Sh’mu’el the moneychanger: (sizing up Jesus’s robe)How much ya got?

Jesus: No seriously please.

Sh’mu’el the moneychanger: It’s 20 Shekels plus 3 points. It’s a grey-tip goat. They ain’t breeding anymore grey-tip goats.

Jesus: Well I don’t have 20 Shekels.

Sh’mu’el the moneychanger: Go talk to Yakoff at the next table, he can get you into a 60 day adjustable at 12%

Jesus: I don’t have any collateral.

Sh’mu’el the moneychanger: You can put down one of your sandals.

Jesus: I think I’ll come back tomorrow.

Sh’mu’el the moneychanger: They’ll never be a better time to buy a grey-tip goat.

Jesus: I’ll take my chances OK?

Sh’mu’el the moneychanger: There’s a donkey convoy of investor pilgrims from Hebron arriving tomorrow. You should buy now or you’ll be priced out of the goat market forever.

Jesus: (having a holy freak-out) Money Changers are Liars!!

Well, that makes it sound like you are assuming that Jesus wanted to do away with commerce and money completely. Not entirely incompatible with the way his followers tried to live directly after his death.

But I think that there is a huge tendancy for people to interpret the words of religious leaders as something that should be generalized when some of it was probably meant that way (Blessed are the meek, etc.) and some of it was probably just a comment on what was right in front of them at that time.

“But the problem isn’t that they are money changers. It is that they are crooks.”

But Jesus doesn’t chase after crooks outside of the Temple.

He’s pissed because they’re doing business- which I think Jesus sees as inherently ‘crooked’- in the Temple. He drives out the people selling the animals, too.

That is pretty funny, Rio, but selling goats and being a money changer isn’t the same thing. Never change your money with someone who is trying to sell you a goat. Similarly, don’t get an appraisal from your realtor.

By the way, the system kind of required a run up in goat (or other animal) prices three times a year. There were/are three harvest festivals (early spring, late spring and fall) which is when people were supposed to go to the Temple with their offerings - not necessarily a goat.

“You’re killing me Rio,…”

Jesus: (having a holy freak-out) Money Changers are Liars!!

+ “The rent’s too damn HIGH!”

Marvin the Martian: “This insignificant planetoid has been found guilty of crimes against the universe.”

Polly… seriously. The fundamental issue with the temple was the pay-to-pray scam going on. Whether you were profiting from currency exchange or selling sacrificial animals, it really didn’t matter. Paying was another impediment put in place by the established religious authorities of that time.

Realtor$ & landlord$, quite the conversations going on there standing in those long lines winding upwards to St. Peters pearly gates.

That is pretty funny, Rio, but selling goats and being a money changer isn’t the same thing.

I think Sh’mu’el was a pioneer. He bragged about it in his ads.

Sh’mu’el Botvinnik—-Money Exchange/Goat Broker
Cutting out the middle-man since 12 B.C.

I think it probably had to do with having to buy the ‘pure’ animals provided by the temple sellers instead of being able to bring your own, akin to the selling of indulgences by the priesthood in the Middle Ages that Martin Luther objected to. It had become a process that gave the rich access to God and denied access to the poor. Essentially, if you were wealthy, you could buy God’s favor.

BINGO

Sounds like that Lyin’ Realtor guy is having a bad day.

Then the problem is with the system of bringing animals for sacrifice when a lot of the people going to pray didn’t raise animals anymore, or not enough animals to have a good chance of finding one “without blemish” in their own herd/flock/whatever. I still don’t get why the money changer gets the ire. It was the priests he should have been yelling at. But they weren’t available.

Yelling at the money changers is about as useful as bashing your H&R Block tax preparer because you can’t figure out your tax forms on your own.

“And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.”
Mark 11:15-19

He ran ‘em all out. The moneychangers just ended up with the rap, because saying he ran out the pigeon-sellers doesn’t sound as exciting.

Sounds like I’m living in Lechters head, rent free.

Ok, so the priests maintain in place a system where a huge number of people who come to the Temple to pray have to engage in commerce to do it. The system itself was originally meant to sacrifice to God the best of your harvest, but it became an anachronism once a significant part of the population wasn’t directly engaged in farming and animal husbandry and had moved into any kind of village or city based skilled labor. I never heard of anyone sacrificing a chair (if they were a carpenter) or cloth (weaver), etc. Heck, except for Abel, I don’t even recall anyone sacrificing grain or grapes or anything else vegetable rather than animal. Are there are any rules for vegetable sacrifices at the Temple in the OT?

Given the anachronistic rules, the pigeon sellers and money changers are needed for most people to go to the Temple at all. And this is the fault of the pigeon sellers and money changers how?

I’m still going for putting the blame on the priests. I see them as the equivalent of Constitutional strict constructionists. If a person is a weaver, then their sacrifice should be cloth worth the same as a pigeon or a goat or whatever. Reinterpretation is appropriate when you get vast shifts in society. Making the weaver sell his cloth, change the money into special Temple money, use the special Temple money to buy a pigeon and then sacrifice the pigeon is the problem. Not the people who change the money and sell the pigeons. There is room for disgust here, but it is directed at the wrong people.

It was the priests he should have been yelling at.

IIRC, the Pharisees and Scribes were Jesus’s favorite targets. I suppose He ran the merchants out of the temple because those in charge refused to do so.

Sounds like the Lyin’ Realtor guy is having another bad day.

Now you’re repeating and stuttering Lechter.

I’m loving this topic though. Doncha say?;)

Lighten up you haterz.

And back to the topic of real estate prices the squad gives you:

“He who pick bottoms have smelly finger” Ancient Chinese Proverb

OK, Colorado. I’m going to need help with that one.

What was wrong with being a scribe?

My understanding is that the “scribes” mentioned in the NT were more akin to what we know as lawyers today. Jesus accused them (along with the Pharisees) of being legalistic hypocrites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woes_of_the_Pharisees

Theologically, scribes, sadducees and pharisees were called out by JC as hypocrites who wrote, advanced, perpetuated and enforced mosaic law, even though they could not adhere to it themselves. IIRC, sadducees were the hebrew aristocracy.

My understanding is that they were more of a sect within ancient Judaism. The Sadducees also did not believe in an afterlife or the ressurrection. Jesus’s rebuke to them was that the God of Abraham was the God of the living and not of the dead.

Sounds like that Lyin’ Realtor critter is having yet another bad day.

This HBB thread gets an “A.”
Thanks, everybody.

Filed under: No comment.

recon$ideration: Xe “Mi$$ion Accomplish$hed!” :-/

Privatize the mail!
Privatize the Prison$!
Privatize the Water treatment facilitie$!
Privatize the War$!

(Iffin’ the list get too long eyes may need prioritize it.)

+1 HWY….

The first $94,000 is tax free (except 10% for medicare/ss) then it’s at a 30% rate.

If you are asking if this has an effect on price, of course it does, as with ANY withholding of inventory.

No. Can you really not discern the point I’m making?

You stated with certainty the reason for the closings (to keep prices high). I asked whether you could show that’s the actual reason, vs other plausible reasons for the closures.

People look to statistics to “prove” one thing caused another. But the dirty little secret of statistics is - statistics can never tell you whether one thing causes another. It can only give you a coefficient indicating how closely correlated one item is to another. -1 is perfect inverse relationship to 1 which is a perfect correlation.

That’s it.

In hard sciences, you can identify a correlated set of variables and observe the actual mechanics in which input A causes outcome B. In social sciences, humans don’t all respond exactly the same way, and besides at this point in time, one cannot identify the genes and resulting neural pathways and brain/body mechanics which leads them to respond in a particular way. So the best you can do is create a plausible scenario backed up with some correlations.

statistics can never tell you whether one thing causes another.

Bill Russell (Celtic’s):

“All eyes know about statistics is what my father once taught me: said he knew a 6′ 8″ man who drowned in a street gutter with 4″ of water”

So the best you can do is create a plausible scenario backed up with some correlations.

Agreed, but then one must also not speak as if they know the “one and only truth”, but rather it is their hypothesis and can try to defend it, but not state it as fact.

Can you prove it didn’t?

Can you prove it didn’t?

One can’t prove a negative.

You’re the one making definitive statements. As such, it’s on you to back up such statements.

No, I don’t. If you think I’m wrong YOU have to prove it.

Regarding Shells purchase and then attempted closing of bakersfield refinery.

A U.S. General Accounting Office study released in May found that six oil industry mergers in the late 1990’s lifted U.S. gasoline prices an average of 2 cents a gallon.

“The increased consolidation which we have found and the General Accounting Office has found and others have found makes it easier for these companies to engage in anti-competitive behavior,” Tyson Slocum, research director for Public Citizen, a Washington-based consumer group, said in an interview.

California Attorney General Bill Lockyer and members of the state legislature have asked Shell to keep the facility open, saying that lack of competition in the state’s refining business is lifting prices.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Flying J Inc. of Ogden, Utah, has signed an agreement with Shell to buy the 73-year-old refinery in the next three months pending the approval of federal regulators, the two companies said Monday.

Shell and Flying J didn’t disclose their terms. A source who has followed the sale, however, pegged the refinery’s purchase price at $130 million.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
BP shell purchased this refinery and then planned on shutting it down, but apparently after a lot of bad press they found a buyer for 130million.
So in summary BP didn’t even try to sell the plant initially because they thought they would make more money by shutting it down and driving up prices. It was only after the bad press that they sold it. This proves that they were manipulating the market in my view.

The result of fewer refineries turning crude oil into gasoline is that any unplanned maintenance, pipeline problem or even routine seasonal changes in gasoline blends can send prices reeling.

That’s just it, this is ENRON on a national scale. Create a narrow pipeline that you control or can manipulate then create artificial shortages with maintenance problems and drive up prices. Say there are 3 refineries for a region. Refiner A claims a maintenance problem in 2011 that last 6 months, then refiner B claims one that lasts 5 months in 2012, and refiner c claims one in 2014. Each one driving up the price of gas for everyone. This is how market manipulation is done.

measton, thanks for adding actual facts to the discussion. Hopefully your post will serve as an example to other posters here.

I’d still posit that there are several plausible reasons BP would look to close the refinery rather than sell it. Perhaps they thought they could command a higher price (certainly their right to set the selling price of their goods), but it could also be that they had excess capacity at their other locations, or that location wasn’t operating at a profit for whatever reason (labor, input costs, cost of operation, cost of compliance, yadda yadda). It’s fine to speculate, and it seems you have reason to speculate as you have, but it’s still a guess as to what the underlying motivation/cause is.

I don’t claim any of these folks operate altruistically. But there sure seems to be a bias here of assuming all “capitalists” are out to rape, pillage, and kick puppy dogs, without facts to back up those opinions.

“One can’t prove a negative.”

Can one provide more information on this statement that I keep hearing, here and other places? Why can one not prove a negative?

If I say it’s blue, and you say it’s not blue, and multiple sampling confirms your assertion that it’s not blue, have you not proved a negative?

If I say it’s blue, and you say it’s not blue, and multiple sampling confirms your assertion that it’s not blue, have you not proved a negative?

Yes, I suppose that is true for certain things. The phrase comes from calls to prove that something does not exist. How could one possibly prove it? How could you prove that something will never happen? You are correct in calling me out here, though, for mis-applying the phrase.

In this case, I can’t prove what a person’s motivations are. Even if I had their own words, there’s no way to prove their words reflect their true motivations. There really isn’t a way to prove turkey isn’t correct about their motivations. Of course there isn’t a way to prove that he/she is, either. It’s just speculation, presented as fact, with no way to back it up.

Some of us don’t have time for long explanations and do not appreciate the accusation of not being thorough.

That aside, thanks measton.

Does this help?

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=27359

KC Star Shows Oil Company Collusion In Refinery Capacity Reduction

http://www.nader.org/index.php?/archives/506-With-So-Many-Refineries-Closing,-Is-This-an-Energy-Crisis.html

Based on findings by the Federal Trade Commission, the Journal said that despite an excess supply, the company limited the gasoline it sold to keep prices high at the pump. FTC said the company, thus, found itself with “considerable market power in the short term.”

The Portland Oregonian reported earlier this year that BP Amoco “systematically jacked up West Coast oil prices by exporting Alaskan crude to Asia for less than it could have sold it to U. S. refiners.”

“There is no doubt whatsoever that they were in the business of shorting the West Coast market,” an University of Texas economist hired by the FTC said in an interview published in the Oregonian.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/wyden.pdf

To be fair:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2005/05/shellbakersfield.shtm

Commission Found No Scheme to Reduce Refining Capacity or Increase Prices

(never mind the outnumbering reports that says they did)

How much could USA environmental regulations add to the price of USA gas/oil?

That’s a very good question. i don’t know. If it involves retrofitting certain refineries, I imagine the cost could end up being quite high, and could involve the refinery being offline for a while (see what happens as refineries switch between winter and summer gas). Honestly, though, I don’t know.

Importing oil is different from the cost of refining, though. The discussion here is about different variables on the cost of gasoline. Obviously the cost of the raw material is relevant, but that’s a constant given we’ve limited the discussion to US refineries.

Thank you, though, for actually engaging in thoughtful discussion on the issue.

The variables into the cost of a gallon of gas are pretty clear:

42 gallons of unrefined oil is currently about $100, or about 2.38 a gallon.
Federal gas tax is 18.4 cents per gallon, so up to $2.56 or so. State gas taxes are variable depending on the state, averaging around $.20 per gallon, but up to about .32 per gallon at the max.

.20 state tax takes our $2.56 up to $2.76 per gallon.

Current average gas price is $3.20 so $3.20 - $2.76 = $0.44 per gallon is the refining and transportation cost. Most big oil companies have around 10% profit margins, so the average refining cost is $.40 per gallon.

.44/3.20 =.14 so refining is about 14% of the cost of gas.

How many gallons of gasoline do you get from 42 gallons of crude oil? I assume it’s somewhat less than 42 gallons.

Yes, probably less, but that means the refinery take is even smaller. I also didn’t include convenience store/seller profits, but that’s mostly negligible.

drummin,

Again I must mention Greg Palast’s excellent expose, “Vulture’s Picnic.”

An entire book of the facts you request along with end notes and citations that will keep you up at night nursing your high, ahem, BP. British Petroleum has colluded to close refineries, cover up blatant illegalities and environmental catastrophes, even keep entire oil fields out of production to game the pricing. Arguably, that’s why we went to war with Iraq– that pesky Saddam guy was selling too low on the world market, and demanding that BP et al keep their straws out of Iraq’s milkshake.

Although oil companies don’t disclose California profits, refining margins as measured by the “crack spread,” an industry calculation used to approximate profits, have been as much as three times as high as elsewhere in the country.

From the LA Times discussion of the mess.

Unleaded regular dropped below $3.00 a gallon last week. Went into town today and it was down another penny.

On an unrelated note auto dealers reported that sales of pickups and SUVs led the increase in unit sales that took place in November.

Almost every single red state TURNED DOWN BILLIONS IN FEDERAL MONEY in the last 2 years to build high speed rail in their state and link them nationwide just to make Obama look bad.

Yes, it can be googled.

Yes, it was a rhetorical question.

Of course the French and German banksters let some of their cronies-of-another-country have a piece of the action. You don’t want bad blood between the ‘Families’.

Total lending exposure to Greece (millions)
Total Government debt exposure to Greece (millions)
Total of 24 countries
145,783
54,196
European banks
136,317
52,258
Non-European banks
9,466
1,938
France
56,740
14,960
Germany
33,974
22,651
Italy
4,085
2,345
Japan
1,631
432
Spain
974
540
UK
14,060
3,408
US
7,318
1,505

Source: BIS Quarterly Review

Greece is not the only hot spot, that accounts only for the G in PIIGS. The heavy weights are Italy and Spain. Italy has the 3rd or 4th largest government debt market in the world.

Countries exposure to PIIGS debt
CNBC

In billion$
Switzerland 56
Austria 36
The Netherlands 150
Belgium 78

UK 347
Germany 532
France 646

I shouted out, ‘Who made the loans to them?’
Well, after all, it was France and Germany

Drug companies have way more power than the ADA.

I recall thinking that bulldozing homes to reduce inventory was too outrageous a plan to keep houses off the market. I was just listening to a realtor on WTOP who talked about how terrible the condition of foreclosures were, and I’ve driven by a couple and they don’t look in great shape. I’m guessing realtors make less money from foreclosures which of course colors his commentary, but creating a system where the incentive is to bulldoze homes rather than allow them to come on the market would have seemed outrageous a few years ago, but not today.

ISTR our fearless leader Ben saying that entire Texas developments were bulldozed after that state’s 1980s bubble burst.

The squad’s favorite all-ages beverage is Mexican Coke, made with real cane sugar. When drinking it, it not only tastes better than USA Coke, but it feels crisp and clean in your mouth, unlike the slimy film-on-the-roof-of-your-mouth feeling after taking a swig of high fructose Coke.

Available in 12 ounce bottles for $1.09 at King Soopers.

i can’t really tell a difference between mexican and hfcs coke, they pretty much taste the same to me. But dr pepper made with sugar tastes more syrupy. I’m not sure it tastes ‘better’, but it is nice for a change now and then.

so might not eating at an early age…

My local gov has made it illegal for 4 or more people to protest in the capital or 100 or more on gov grouns without a permit and without first paying for security.

So stage a protest w/o the permit and without security. Get arrested, and challenge it all the way to the supreme court.

OR

vote the bastards out and vote someone in who will repeal that law.

It sucks, but there are still avenues for changing things.

My local gov has made it illegal for 4 or more people to protest in the capital or 100 or more on gov grouns without a permit and without first paying for security.

So stage a protest w/o the permit and without security. Get arrested, and challenge it all the way to the supreme court.

This is happenign right now, but many people have families to support and aren’t yet willing to risk everything.

Let’s not forget that our wise supreme court had allowed property seizure in the name of private developement and changed a presidential election, and declared corporations are people etc etc. I’m not sure I have much faith in the supreme court.

Think of it as a Freedom Tax.

I hear what you’re saying - stop with the learned helplessness - and it’s a good goal. It’s one of the reasons I’m impressed with OWS, even though I might not agree with all of their non-economic positions.

What is your problem with interest rate swaps? They are simply vehicles companies use to match loans for assets with the expected life of the assets.

Yes, but it’s another transaction that involves an investment bank (usually).

I’m not saying they’re bad in and of themselves. But if someone’s concerned about the large IBs having their tendrils in everything, it’s one of the things one can look for and try to avoid/vote against.

You don’t get out much, do you?

You don’t get out much, do you?

I get out plenty. Your comment does not make sense in the context of what you were responding to, so I asked you to clarify. If you’d rather engage in ad hominem attacks that’s fine, but it sure doesn’t support your position.

See my post above. I quite honestly don’t have time for long explanations, and after being insulted above, I’m not really inclined to offer you any.

However… the option to be paid in cash has long since disappeared and is actually illegal in many places. Paper checks are not far behind. The majority of people with regular jobs are paid by either direct deposit or pay cards and paper checks are not even offered. (I have such a job in a company that employs thousands)

Right off the bat, you’re locked into the electronic system. The same general system used by the banks and credit card companies. Yes, you can withdraw it all and keep the cash at home, but many places no longer accept cash for paying bills. Also, sending cash by mail is neither smart nor safe. So now you’re back to using the system of either checks or electronic payment to ensure your money is not stolen by the mailman or the employee at the receiving end, not to mention you also need some way to independently verify that payment, because payments are lost all the time by the receivers.

Then there is the time factor. Most people simply don’t have time to pay their bills in person. Auto pay or electronic pay is quite simply, very, very fast.

So was it the consumer who created this system? Of course not.

So was it the consumer who created this system? Of course not.

Individuals most definitely has had a say in the evolution of the system.

Individuals could have held out and demanded paper checks. Instead they elected for direct deposit. They could have resisted when companies said “direct deposit” only, and not taken the job.

If folks used cash more, credit/electronic payment wouldn’t be so prevalent. As more folks use credit, keeping cash on hand became less cost-effective, and merchants have had to raise prices across the board to cover the cut taken by the middle man (bank offering the CC). The individuals are the ones who drove this - their behavior when it comes to payments.

One can most certainly still pay by check for pretty much anything. Cash + check will cover 99% of things you might need to buy. Yet folks choose - every day, and with every transaction - to further enrich and entrench the banks.

There have been plenty of opportunities to send us down a different route, but folks are simply unwilling to sacrifice the “convenience”. They voted for this, whether they realize and are willing to admit it or not.

One can most certainly still pay by check for pretty much anything.

A lot of places don’t take checks anymore.

They did not. If you think people have real choices in this country, you’re either being disingenuous or are quite naive.

Did you vote for ethanol in your gasoline? Was there any other real choice? Do you think buying a new car just because it runs on diesel is real option for most people?

That’s just one example.

Did you vote for ethanol in your gasoline? Was there any other real choice? Do you think buying a new car just because it runs on diesel is real option for most people?

This is relevant to choosing to involve wall street/banks in different facets of life how?

To paraphrase a quote I once saw “Everything in my life is touched by money.”

And that money is now controlled in one way or another by Wall St., which in turn influences what is offered for sale by the big corporations so they can hit their numbers for Wall St.

The only choices you get are what is controlled by the big corporations and Wall St.

Ever heard of “the gilded cage?” We live in it.