The Housing Bubble

I’m trying to think of a good company…..

And we wonder whty everyone wants a government job?

Now you’re just lucky if you work hard and get a batman cap to show for it.

Lots of good long-term jobs at banks (regular banks, not investment banks) if you’re willing to have your soul crushed a little every day.

Why not quit complaining and open your own business. Hence create a job for yourself that perhaps last forever. It will give you the ability to sock away decent amount of money. Capitalism is not democracy. Many people do not grasp this fact and cling on for some company to provide them a job and recognize their hard work and talent.

That was a once upon a time and it’s no more

“Why not quit complaining and open your own business. Hence create a job for yourself that perhaps last forever. It will give you the ability to sock away decent amount of money.”

Hahahaha! What fantasy world do you live in? Tell that to the construction contractors who were devastated by the Great Recession. Or to the independent truckers who have been getting squeezed for the last 20 years. Or to any number of small business people who were taken down by a bad economy.

But maybe your timing is better than those folks and you start your business in a recovering economy. If you are one of the unlucky 90%, your business will still fail in its first 5 years and suck you dry in the process.

One of the biggest causes of business failure is undercapitalization. Where do you get the capital if you don’t have a job or assets or wealthy relations?

” “get a good job with a good company and work hard”

There it is. They’re deluded.
“

I would say not so much deluded as living in the past. The world changed and they have not had to change with it. My father is 90 and hasn’t worked since retiring at 65. A lot has changed in 25 years. This formula actually worked for his generation.

“Why not quit complaining and open your own business. Hence create a job for yourself that perhaps last forever. It will give you the ability to sock away decent amount of money. “

Hahahahaha! Tell that to the construction contractors that were devastated by the Great Recession.

But maybe your timing will be better and you will start your business in an economy that will grow for the next 30 years. If you are one of the unlucky 90%, your business will still fail in the first 5 years and suck you dry in the process.

A lot of small business failures are due to undercapitalization. Where will you get the capital if you have no job and no assets and no wealthy relatives?

Why not quit complaining and open your own business.

Candle shop? Pirate store?

What would you suggest?

Hahahahaha! Tell that to the construction contractors that were devastated by the Great Recession.

And to:
Candle shop? Pirate store?
What would you suggest?

Oh please stop being so dramatic and silly. A well thought out need based diversified business with robust profits is the way to go these days. In my humble opinion the only thing certain about business is change. The examples you are citing are silly and you know it.

“A well thought out need based diversified business with robust profits is the way to go these days”

And where does a lucky ducky or a young person just out of college get the capital to start that business? If they can get that capital, are they likely to be successful? I would bet on 99.9% of them failing due to some missing skillset.

Diversified sounds good, but you can end up spreading yourself too thin.

Robust profits in a startup? Really? Bill Gates has talked about worrying about making payroll in the early days of Microsoft.

“In my humble opinion the only thing certain about business is change”

Bingo. Change can kill even successful, established, well-run businesses.

IMHO, the start-your-own-business-so-you-always-have-a-job meme will work for a very small subset of the population. The rest will need to find jobs. Most are simply lacking in a necessary skillset (the very intelligent may lack people skills necessary for success) or capital.

Heck, Steve Jobs started a business and then got fired, so even starting your own business is no guarantee that you will have a job for life.

You are making amateurish points.

I have been doing this for a living for the past 27 years. Capital is usually a non issue when starting a business. It is merely just one of the things needed to start a business. In the US there is a lot of capital floating around. A smart person needs decent credit and a few thousand in a bank. The rest can easily be financed without personal guaranty most of the time.

In my professional opinion most people who try do succeed in business. In this economy I see smart business making moves to transition to what is in demand these days and are easily transitioning while others are fighting to keep their heads above the water.

Your statement brings to mind a change I have noticed in the new startups. Perhaps 20 years ago the new startups were made up of people between 40 – 60 years old. Now days I rarely see those age groups. The startups are for the most part are 25 -45 years in age.

You are entitled to my factual opinion. PEACE

SUGuy said: “In my professional opinion most people who try do succeed in business.”

Your professional opinion is worthless when it so obviously flies in the face of statistical reality. The hypermajority of startups fail. Period. Hence, advising people to uniformly seek that outlet is pretty much the equivalent shoveling lots of baby chicks into the furnace.

Other posters like Happy2bHeard have been patiently telling you the bald truth of the matter. Capital is the lifeblood of a business. And there’s never enough. There’s particularly never enough to obey all those federal, state and municipal laws. Successful small businessmen when you pigeonhole them, will tend to admit they cut more than a few corners when they were struggling to reach true profitability. That’s a code phrase for “they broke the law a lot”. And when you do that, it’s really only a matter of time before law and regulatory enforcement notices you and then administers the heavy fine or worse.

That you believe there’s a lot of capital out there for startups (the real startups, not all these CA/NY tech scams), is the very definition of cognitive dissonance. Startups are capital starved as a rule. You can’t get a bank loan on your credit rating and an idea. Only people with the correct last names can do that (hint: a tiny percentage). And a few thousand in the bank and a good idea pretty much spells bankruptcy and an ocean of tears in about 3 years, NOT success.

The thing you SHOULD be advising people to do is downsize their lifestyles, essentially to the level of poverty. That will create the margins of savings required to survive a job search or business risk.

The thing you SHOULD be advising people to do is downsize their lifestyles, essentially to the level of poverty. That will create the margins of savings required to survive a job search or business risk.

Will you be telling your kids to look forward to poverty? Have you seen real poverty? What kind of future advice is that?

You get poverty when you lack money and savings.

Will you be telling your kids to look forward to poverty? Have you seen real poverty? What kind of future advice is that?

It’s advice aligned with reality. Giving out advice based on hope, is worthless. That seems to be your problem.

American wages must fall. That’s the reality. Hence a lot of people here will become poor. That’s the reality.

The future must be looked forward to, by definition, regardless if that future is good or bad.

Pension never entered my vocabulary.

Raising a family changes the game, Bill.

Your investments wouldn’t mean diddle unless someone else out in the world was having children and sending through college so that they could propel that firm that you invest in toward profits. In short, you enjoy eating today’s crop while neglecting to plant the next season’s seed. A dash of smug is entertaining; don’t over do it.

Here’s an idea. Since you are physically fit why don’t you disparage the crippled for a change?

It’s also a way to get the company match

Also on the endangered species list. And if you do get one, it often has absurd vesting restrictions, as long as 5 years. Who stays at the same job for 5 years anymore?

I’m vested and get the match. One thing about the match that most people do not consider is that you can get it simply by recycling your contribution. You put $1 in and match is $1. You take your $2 out, and pay the taxes. You put $1 in next year and so on.

Keep in mind that I am in the 59 1/2+ club and do not need to worry about the 10% penalty or any kind of restrictions on withdrawals.

Sure, retirement accounts are shielded from bankruptcy. A Roth is too, and you can self manage. I suspect that cash in a coffee can is as well, but then you’d need to have selective memory.

Recycling is a good point, Blue… But I’m in the penalty age-group currently, so there would be a non-trivial cost to doing so.

I suspect that cash in a coffee can is as well, but then you’d need to have selective memory.

Selective memory == BK fraud.

On a lighter note, one of my coworkers found, upon his father’s death, that the books in the library were loaded with $100 book marks. Talk about self managed funds!

Keep in mind that I am in the 59 1/2+ club and do not need to worry about the 10% penalty or any kind of restrictions on withdrawals.

But you’re still working for the company? I thought you couldn’t withdraw until after termination of employment there.

I think the rules vary somewhat by plan, but mine allows withdrawals without having to prove a “qualifying event” like buying a house. You can’t “close” the account while you are still working, but that leaves a lot of lattitude.

The ability to earn is definitely not 100% in anyone’s control…

The decision on what to spend is nearly 100% in everyone’s control.

I see very few people around me choose to live and spend the way that I do.

Very few of the “essentials” in life are actually essential.

Henry Prime Thoreau?

You flatter me way too much, Blue!

The rent versus buy arguments favoring buy come from DC, SF, and LA.

It’s a different story out here in flyover…

11/17/2011 Listing removed $359,000

09/29/2011 Price change $359,000

08/17/2011 Listed for sale $379,000

11/09/2005 Sold $550,000

07/08/1993 Sold $170,000 — $95 Public Record

Slid back to 2000 prices? You would have to hope the market doesn’t slide into 1993 prices!

I’ll bet in 1980, early stage of the housing bubble, it would have been $45K. One does wonder where we are headed.

Renting is still way more financially advantageous in Seattle, from what I can tell…

I would agree that this is priced somewhat in reality, IF IF IF there are the jobs to support it. The lot is a bit small, but the house doesn’t seem to need much work.

Blue, it’s easy to point at what prices were years ago, but something important happened between 1993 and now: women began to bring home career income; i.e. substantial monies. House prices in areas with jobs are now predicated on TWO incomes, especially near schools. It’s not hard for two $60K teachers to easily afford this $330K house. And as long as there are working couples who buy such houses, prices will not crash to below that. And the ones that do are probably not livable.

It’s gratifying to see that people are making their own calculations for their own area based on their own situation. The bubble may have been countrywide (ha), but the bust is looking local.

Awaiting, did you see my semi-lecture from last week?

oxide
I regret, I did not. I do know you’ve been treated poorly from other HBB’ers, and that isn’t acceptable. I have learned a lot from you. If you gave me constructive advice, I really regret not seeing it.

I’ve taken on some Accounting projects- not much posting/reading time.

I sort of agree with you Oxy, and it is easier for me personally to see where prices have come. My first house was almost just like that one, except a full acre lot and a single car garage. It was $24,000. My spouse and I both had professional jobs. That thing started before the 90s.

What we are watching is taking solid form. This house is off by 50% in six years. 50%! Anyone predicting that six years ago would have been laughed at or ignored. So is it beyond imagination that it will fall further? I think possibly so!

Don’t overlook that prices are set on the margins. If 90% of the people can afford the houses and the other 10% cannot, look out. Just like in Cub Scouts, prices will drop until the little fat guy catches up.

Awaiting, I’ll repeat it here, and I’m sorry if this is a lecture:

If your goals are a paid-off house, low expenses, and emergency medical cash, Southern California is probably the worst place for it.

I think you would be FAR better off buying a ~$115K house in a low-cost area, and have $300K cash left over, than to tie up your entire $400K on a California-priced house and having nothing left over.

You mentioned that your husband has an EE career but failing eyesight. If there is a chance that he cannot keep his career for longer than $300K worth of salary, (after taxes!!), it may be better, and less stressful for him, for you both to go cheap on the house and use the leftover cash to live.

There are a lot of smaller cities, East and West, with good universities/med schools/hospitals and cheaper housing.* If you’re an accountant, there are small accounting jobs in almost any city for your “walking money.”

Again, I don’t know your situation (family?), but I’m asking you to consider a medical version of Oil City plan. OK, lecture done.

If 90% of the people can afford the houses and the other 10% cannot, look out. Just like in Cub Scouts, prices will drop until the little fat guy catches up.

Yes, and by the time the fat guy catches up, the 90% will have eaten all the good hot dogs. There is also the question of how much rent that 90% will pay while they wait.

Oxide:
“And as long as there are working couples who buy such houses, prices will not crash to below that.”

Ahh - but consider that as of a year or two ago, unmarried people are in the majority in the US, IIRC.

I think your logic here is basically sound, but I question where the new couples will be coming from, if at all….

Property History for 2425 DUSAN St
Date Event Price Appreciation Source
Feb 17, 2012 Listed (Active) $330,900 — CRISNet #F12021807
Dec 21, 2011 Sold (Public Records)
This home was foreclosed

Thats pretty cheap for the area is it being sold as is ?

I think you would be FAR better off buying a ~$115K house in a low-cost area, and have $300K cash left over, than to tie up your entire $400K on a California-priced house and having nothing left over.”

You ever visit Tucson AZ I always liked it there.
How about Fillmore ? too remote ?

Simi is pretty nice and thats a good area of Simi

I’m waiting to hear back on my short sale offer in Moorpark for 380K its a 2 story by the college

oxide
I read your unsolicited but solid advice, and believe it or not, I agree with your objective thinking. Actually, we are trying to buy as low as we can, and keep the rest of our money in our “tsunami” account. We never have such luck as just to be rained on (rainy day fund). When chit happens to us, it’s more like a tsunami!

I am applying to REITs again, and I usually pull in some decent money. Hopefully, no buy-outs will come along to sacrifice my job. My husband is working on consulting stuff. His wage slave days are over. Stress is a big no-no with Glaucoma.

Thanks for caring. You can always slap me on the side of the head with advice. It gives me a great data point.

cactus
Happy to hear you took the plunge. The problem is short sales around here are taking 8+ months to close, if they do. Stanton Ave in Simi was viewed by us in April of 2011 as a SS. It’s still in the pending mode(10 months later. But for your sake (I like ya), I will cross my fingers for you. I like the college side, more than the Mountain Meadows area.Keep us all in the loop!

Steve J
Could not agree more. Oxide has the right idea, and so do you. Even if you’re living off a SS check, a paid off home gives you breathing room.

With Glaucoma in our household, a paid off home is some security in a very insecure personal and external world.

Note: this is not an attack on you Awaiting

If the costs of treating glaucoma(we have it in our family, too, my dad and granddad both have or had it) exceed your savings, are you at any risk from having your paid off home, “just for you” re-possessed?

I only ask because I have a paid off home; not much in personal savings (partly because I have put over 100k in health insurance costs and medication). I carry medical insurance for fear that my routine(for me) and possibly catastophic-event medical bills will exceed my savings and I will lose my paid off house if I dare go without medical. I feel, for us, carrying insurance is the route we are tenatively following. YMMV

Is it possible, in the event that if and when medical exceeds savings, and one does not have health insurance, that a lien gets placed on the home but you dont have to move out for many years?

In Texas, you keep your primary home in a bankruptcy.

Plus, blind people get a discount on property taxes.

mikeinbend
Don’t think not having health insurance doesn’t scare the cr*p out of us. I am only interviewing firms that offer medical insurance. Luckily, we found a great Glaucoma Clinic associated with a university, and the price for an appt is 20% of what a fancy office would be in our area. The medical group is way ahead of our areas docs in advances and treatments. The prescriptions are usually samples, and when they aren’t, we get them filled for a fraction of what we did at Kaiser, when we paid $1,200/mo for the premium alone.

My husband has his surgeries behind him, and hopefully is in a maintenance stage for a long time. I appreciate your concern.

I am being interviewed by youngins 20 years younger. Thank God I don’t look like an aged land whale.

I am rooting for you. I like your area well and hope you get a good enough price on a house soon.

About the area surrounding the Conejo grade, it is beautiful. I was born in Oxnard, grew up in Somis, went to Camarillo High. I witnessed the opening of the Janss mall and the Galleria. From Somis went to UCSB; worked on a farm in Goleta for a decade; sold veggis in Malibu, Pacific Palisades, Montrose, Encino. I also have surfed every beach from Malibu to Big Sur; for me, you are the southermost sweet spot of livable CA. So we visit now, but not since 2007(and I started surfing in OR; four hours versus 16), cuz it is costly. When we sold our house in 04 we knew we were never likely able to come back.

I appreciate your candor; and respect that you are proactive maintaining your own health as cheaply as possible thru diet and exercise. We can’t really afford to have both medical and a house (which is why my wife and I have an eye peeled for a job with some bennies). And why I am proddin’ ya, nothing personal believe me….

mikeinbend
I use to manage the Janss Mall. I worked for the Janss family. Talk about being handed the golden goose (grandsons) and being greedy and stupid. The company is now defunked. The Janss Steps is at UCLA, they built Westwood, the Conejo Valley, a city in Idaho, etc… They were once a real estate empire.

Yeah, this area is pretty, but my heart is in South Pasadena. The concept of taking the GoldLine to work, and a walking friendly city really appeals to us.This area is too dependent on cars. Oh, since you’ve been here, this area has been invaded by the illegals.

Just completed our taxes for 2011 and while filing away the records I looked back at the returns from the last few years of my professional career. That was over a decade ago, before the tech bubble crash and the years I worked hourly jobs just to have benefits. I was shocked, because I had forgotten the numbers.

Moving to a low cost area and buying (for cash) the least expensive house my wife would accept allows us to live comfortably on about 50% of what I was making at the end of my career. Inflation-adjusted, it’s probably around 40%.

Thanks for the reminder, Bill. Taxes are a good project to take on this long weekend. I knew there was something I needed to do other than watch last week’s epsiode of Downton Abbey.

We’re in a pretty good position, with a paid off house and no debt, but the place is on a one acre lot and a lot of work to keep up. Plus we’re due to be annexed any time and the taxes will probably go up to ~200/mo.

At least we got a good new roof on this year. The insides need updating but it’s still serviceable.

You never did a drive by fruiting?

LOL! Nice…

Az Slim
Can’t wait to grow some basics. Tomatoes, Broccoli, and some other essentials. I’ve been reading up on drip systems.

If we allow men to marry women, wouldn’t that start down the slippery slope to brothers marrying their sisters and/or mommies marrying their sons???

Taboo II

“As long as gay marriage stays illegal then the slippery slope toward that can be prevented, right?”

You can marry your dog for all I care. Hell I didn`t even complain about the Government Motors comercial that has the little boy playing with a Bratz doll and a pink trailer waiting for his Dad to come home. Although the Silverado and F-series pick up truck crowd that I know (2 of whom brought it to my attention and we got a good laugh out of it) would probably frown on their little boys playing with a Bratz doll so I`m not 100% sure who thought it was a good idea. Not to mention when the kid gets home to the Barbie house, the doll that the kid says.. Hey honey I`m glad your home to looks really pissed. But at least she`s hot.

“Like Father, Like Son” | 2012 Chevy Silverado | Chevrolet - YouTube
Oct 3, 2011 … The 2012 Chevy Silverado HD: built for whatever life throws at you,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrl-mm-7WM8 - 148k -

Rick Santorum said this, in all sincerity, that allowing gay marriage would lead to beastiality. And he is leading Romney in the polls. Still can’t believe this is the 21st century here…

Like I said gay marriage is fine with me, I don`t care. I really don`t see where it`s anybodys buisness as long as it`s not a child. Having said that, I would like there to be a 5 second warning on TV before Barney Frank kisses the bride, or groom or whoever he is going to kiss when he gets married.

“Rick Santorum said this, in all sincerity, that allowing gay marriage would lead to beastiality”

I had to look that up.

Urban Dictionary: beastiality
A common way to incorrectly spell wordbestiality/word. Sexual intercourse involving a human and a lower animal.

That`s two now, the other one I had to look up a couple of months ago was “fluffer”.

Now what exactly is a lower animal? A dog? Would a horse be considered a higher animal?

Google “Santorum”

Sorry, typo. And he didn’t say bestiality, he specifically stated that allowing gay marriage would lead to humans marrying dogs.

This is the leading GOP Presidential candidate in the year 2012…

I am all for bestiality as long the animal in question is an adult animal and understands and agrees to the act.

For that matter I am also for the polygamy.

Bigamy? Big a you!

What about The Beastie Boys? Did they have anything to do with this? You gotta fight for your right to party? What other rights were they fighting for? Obviously they were into beastiality! And they probably haven`t paid their mortgage in 3 years either! Why they are probably just a bunch of Deadbeasts!

Follow the two cardinal rules of bestiality and you’ll be fine:
1. Never initiate
2. Never enjoy

Oh god I`m hit! With an apple! It was a drive by fruiting! I cought a glimpse of the guy, I think it was Barney Frank!

Homophobia with the GOP=distraction.

As bad as the divorce rate is, marriage should be illeal in general. Just outlaw the whole concept outright accross the board.

“Sorry, typo. And he didn’t say bestiality, he specifically stated that allowing gay marriage would lead to humans marrying dogs.”

Have had a similar discussion here about GOP candidates and their views on abortion. While I don`t think abortion should be celebrated and should be avoided if possible. It ain`t up to me or any GOP candidate to make that decission anyway.

Soneone could be 98% in line with many peoples views (not saying Santorum is) on economic issues, defence or anything and then they have to say what apparently Santorum did above. It doesn`t make any sense. Hypothetically you could be right on every issue but 2 and your opponent could be wrong on every issue but 2 and your opponent could still stand there and say…. See, he thinks gay people getting married will lead to people marrying dogs or… He doesn`t think a woman has the right to control her own body. And even if the guy is right on evry other issue, he looks (rightfully so) like an idiot. Just doesn`t make sense to me. Then again, I never said I was smart so a lot of things don`t.

However, if there is a bestiality movement out there somewhere. Don`t expect my support. You gotta draw the line somewhere.

Follow the two cardinal rules of bestiality and you’ll be fine:

Is that kind of like the “I never inhaled” defense?

“You gotta draw the line somewhere.”

You mean dogs or horses?

Liz, you’re onto something.

All those self-righteous pundits who tout the sactity of man-woman marriage need to spend a day observing family court.

“This is why I think if we are to have national health care, it has to be health CARE, not health insurance.”

Single payer insurance can work fine because everyone is covered. It also reduces the government’s influence on the delivery of care.

I thought single payer meant govt (taxpayers) pays the bills. How would they not have influence on delivery?

“Denying insurance coverage for preexisting conditions is the only way that insurance has ever worked.”

That would make sense only if the insurance company that you were insured by WHEN the condition first occurred remained liable for its treatment when you have later moved on to some other company, without you still having to pay premiums to them.

Having the new company deny coverage due to a pre-existing condition, while the old company denies coverage because they decided to drop you, is the heart of the problem.

From that perspective, Blue, the problem is that insurance does not pay out a single payment that covers all future costs. When your house (or boat) burns, the policy pays out. When you discover a medical condition that will have significant future expenses, medical “insurance” does not pay out what will be required for future care.

If I am understanding you, then: If I change insurance companies and my boat burns, the insurance company that I used to have does not pay out.

I guess that if you are a corporate hampster these days, if you get seriously ill, you are chained to your cubicle. A long time ago, company group plans did not screen for pre-existing. Was that called “open enrollment”?

No Blue, what Prime is saying is the insurance company DROPS the person AFTER they have contracted the disease and no other companies will pick them up because it has now become a “pre-existing condition” through no fault of the person.

This happens EVERY day.

A rough analogy would your current boat insurance company has suddenly redefined your boat has having a special fire hazard problem (that it didn’t before) and is now dropping you without notice or ability to appeal. This new fire hazard has also been adopted industry wide and you can no longer get the boat insured.

Was that your fault?

Can you repair it? Depends. Is it cost effective? Because you no longer have insurance to cover the repair costs.

Uh oh. Catch 22. (again, just a rough analogy. for health concerns, it’s life and death, not materiel objects)

Nor do they understand that life is unfair. except in Sweden.

Thanks turkey, I understand.

The 90 yo is most likely grandfathered in to their policy.

The name of the game in insurance is to provide less coverage over the years for more money to new customers.

Much like every other industry. Charge more. Give less. Complain about non-existent tax and union and excessive gov regulation problems.

We deny coverage to pregnant women don’t we?

What about the pre-born babies?

If you have continuous group coverage through the period of the job change, even if there’s an interval of COBRA between jobs, then the new group insurer cannot exclude pre-existing conditions. I know that because a similar situation happened to us back in the late 1980’s, before HIPPA.

Commie talk!

Well sure that’s true, if your idea of “work” means “make a profit.”

I think that nearly everyone is interested in “profiting” from “work”.

I would bet that that is the reason why you yourself work, oxide.

I fully expect (and desire) for ALL individuals and companies to profit by providing me care. Note the words “providing me care”. I want a service. I’ll pay for that service.

Well sure that’s true, if your idea of “work” means “make a profit.”

No, what he meant was that the word insurance has traditionally meant protecting against losses that are unknown. In other words, it’s risk-sharing across some pool of probabilistic future losses.

But you can’t insure against something that is already known. You can’t go to get fire insurance the day after your house burns down.

He is correct in that. “Insurance” really isn’t the right word for what we apply to medical care.

He is correct in that. “Insurance” really isn’t the right word for what we apply to medical care.

Not only is it the wrong word, it’s the wrong concept. Only we insist on using this dysfunctional model.

Not only is it the wrong word, it’s the wrong concept. Only we insist on using this dysfunctional model.

Good point, InCO…

“I fully expect (and desire) for ALL individuals and companies to profit by providing me care. Note the words “providing me care”. I want a service. I’ll pay for that service.”

So, do we expect 9 year olds to work to pay for their own care? Visit the sins of the parents (for only having an average or lower IQ) onto the children?

I presume you are also against Medicare.

Let those 90 year olds work for their care too.

“Only we insist on using this dysfunctional model”

That’s what I mean, exactly. Only it isn’t a wrong choice of words, it is a wrong motive.

Insurance companies profit from the healthy, not from the ill. Benevolence is either charity or socialism, it’s not insurance.

Posers, in this context, Skye used the word “work” with the connotation of “function,” and I answered in light of this, as did everybody else.

You incorrectly assumed that we were using the word “work” with the connotation of “labor,” and missed the point.

We don’t need CEOs in a health care program, only in a national “insurance” program.

There is no debate. Most people who this affects directly still insist that health care is not a right. It would be some kind of commie welfare.

And they seem to be the majority.

Most people who this affects directly still insist that health care is not a right.

And these same people expect Medicare to pay for for Mom n Dad’s bill.

And they seem to be the majority.

In polls in 2006 and 2009 around 65% of Americans said health-care was a right. source: CBS

In other polls almost twice as many Americans think health-care is a right compared to a privilege.

Zogby 2009: Forty-seven percent believe that affordable healthcare is a right, and 30% say it is a privilege. Another 20% believe it is neither.

At one point, almost 70% of Americans wanted a public option.

Americans are MUCH more “left” on the healthcare issue than our Corporate TOOL government. (and many other issues too)

70% of Americans also told Congress to deny the bailouts.

Republics serve a purpose to act as a circuit breaker for public opinion that is popular but unwise, but we now live in an oligarchy and it’s corrupt from top to bottom and ignoring too many popular demands will result in “bad things happening”.

Brazil and all those other commie-socialists have chosen to be civilized societies.

We are regressing on many different levels. Our goal is to become “New Somalia”

Please note that “pre-existing conditions” now include “age” and “weight”. Even if you are as healthy as a horse otherwise.

Yes, but rates are still low, keeping prices high…There was a time I thought I’d be rewarded, as the deadbeats were punished by not being able to buy. But the low rate/high price situation is buying those deadbeats time so that they can get back in the game to compete with the likes of us again.

Sorry if I just made your blood pressure go back up, jeff, but misery loves company.