The Housing Bubble

933 ?

311 is for non emergency complaints or information

I loved Streisand in the movie Lentil.

Let them eat lentils!

I prepared rogan josh and shrimp vandaloo for my guests while nude male dancers imported from the Barundi countryside pranced about to the sitar music.

It is better to rent nude dancers than to import them, over the long term.

A little political humor;

A campaign worker comes to give Mitt Romney the news on the latest caucus.

Worker: Mr Romney the latest vote count is in, and I have good news and bad news.

Romney: What’s the bad news?

Worker: Ron Paul got 75% of the vote.

Romney: Crap, what could the good news be?

Worker: You got 76%.

Wife and I went to a party yesterday. The host was her former piano student. I struck up a conversation w/ the former student’s husband. Turns out the guy is a libertarian who said he would vote for Ron Paul, except he doesn’t believe Paul has a chance in November.

I told the fellow that I expect him to tell me he voted for Ron Paul the next time we meet up, assuming it is after November 2012.

CA is to big to sink

How much credit card debt is that?

That’s more than $125k (my house) anyway.

Two top incomes, always new leather SUVs, several real vacations per year, private schools, etc., the stuff dreams are made of…for peeps like me. One of ‘em lost a job a while back, and we thought it would be, “when worlds collide”, but I guess they run in the right circles, so another top paying job appeared like magic.

He has a political science degree, works for an investment bank out of Pleasanton, CA., hauling in something like $750k/yr before bonuses. I’m not sure about her, but I’m sure she tops me several times over. They’re both on their second marriages, so they’re paying for several huge homes, and supporting elderly parents too; they literally hemorrhage money. Their cash flow is roughly 10x mine, one more zero on the end. I remember a brief discussion we had regarding his employer’s 30:1 leverage; he knew it was going to explode big time, but that didn’t slow their lifestyle.

Bentonville is WallyWorld HQ, probably not an unlikely target for bubble chasers. The hairdresser’s real flaw was thinking Bentonville was in the Midwest.

“…everyone was doing it.”

I hear ya CIBT. I understand exactly what you’re saying.

This is a perfect example of malfeasance in lending. There is NO way the lender should have EVER have approved that much money to anyone on that income.

I’m pretty sure there is absolutely nothing unusual about a staff seargeant with $500K sunk into real estate, as some MSM comments have suggested there is.

Some of those guys are paid pretty good coin.

According to the army website, the base pay for a Staff Sergeant is $34,636. Then add all of the non taxable allowances they get and it can be another 20-30K, tax free. Plus they get bonuses, housing allowances, etc.

Here are some examples:

SPECIAL DUTY PAY

Special duty pay is for enlisted Soldiers in jobs that demand extra responsibility or extraordinary effort. Examples of these jobs include parachuting instructors, fuel specialists and combat controllers. Monthly amounts range from $75 to $450.
HARDSHIP DUTY PAY

Hardship duty pay is additional compensation for Army Soldiers assigned to locations where living conditions are substantially below conditions in the continental United States. Soldiers who serve 30 or more days in a designated hardship area receive $50, $100 or $150 per month, depending on the area.
Foreign Language Proficiency Pay

The Army pays up to $1,000 per month to active duty Soldiers and offers a $6,000 per year bonus for qualified Army Reserve Soldiers who have been certified within the past 12 months to be proficient in a foreign language critical to the military and maintain their ability to read, speak and understand it.

Plus, some career military have made it a practice to buy houses wherever they are stationed for long periods of time, even overseas, and were used to selling at a profit. It was considered smart business. Knew of a guy who bought a villa in Italy while stationed there.

No doubt, mid-career and senior military members are better paid than people commonly think. Allowances (many of the untaxed) are often the greater part of their pay. But it’s still true that 500k is a metric buttload of money.

Polly, do service members and clergy still get to deduct mortgage interest since their housing allowance is already tax free? Just curious.

Even if you add up all the bonus pay and allowances you’d be hard pressed to afford $500K. And I doubt that anyone would get all that bonus pay for all 30 years.

Maybe they figured they could cover the payment on an I/O neg-am with the housing allowance and sell for a profit. Mrs. WaMu would know all about it.

I’m not sure anybody even does much figuring. It’s more like “housing always goes up, what else do you need to know?”.

They were dual income. Not sure how much a “Project Manager” was paid at WaMu or at her new PR firm job, but in my line of business that’s a low six figure job.

Still, 500K is an absurd amount of mortgage money to borrow. I’m guessing that the Mrs. replacement job doesn’t pay as well as the old one, which probably led to the financial pressures. Having hubby go postal in Afghanland didn’t help either, as that source of income will probably be going bye-bye.

nb. his BAH (Basic Allowance for Housing) as an E6 at Fort Lewis with a dependent would be $1650/month. Which according to my back of the envelop figuring would cover the interest only on $500k if the rate was 3.96%.

Jim, no idea. Just a sec. OK. I went to irs.gov and put “military publication” in the search box. This is the text at the first result:

10 Tips to Ease Tax Time for Military

IRS Summertime Tax Tip 2011-07, July 20, 2011

Military personnel have some unique duties, expenses and transitions. Some special tax benefits may apply when moving to a new base, traveling to a duty station, returning from active duty and more. These tips may put military members a bit “at ease” when it comes to their taxes.

Moving Expenses If you are a member of the Armed Forces on active duty and you move because of a permanent change of station, you can deduct the reasonable unreimbursed expenses of moving you and members of your household.

Combat Pay If you serve in a combat zone as an enlisted person or as a warrant officer for any part of a month, all your military pay received for military service that month is not taxable. For officers, the monthly exclusion is capped at the highest enlisted pay, plus any hostile fire or imminent danger pay received.

Extension of Deadlines The time for taking care of certain tax matters can be postponed. The deadline for filing tax returns, paying taxes, filing claims for refund, and taking other actions with the IRS is automatically extended for qualifying members of the military.

Uniform Cost and Upkeep If military regulations prohibit you from wearing certain uniforms when off duty, you can deduct the cost and upkeep of those uniforms, but you must reduce your expenses by any allowance or reimbursement you receive.

Joint Returns Generally, joint returns must be signed by both spouses. However, when one spouse may not be available due to military duty, a power of attorney may be used to file a joint return.

Travel to Reserve Duty If you are a member of the US Armed Forces Reserves, you can deduct unreimbursed travel expenses for traveling more than 100 miles away from home to perform your reserve duties.

ROTC Students Subsistence allowances paid to ROTC students participating in advanced training are not taxable. However, active duty pay – such as pay received during summer advanced camp – is taxable.

Transitioning Back to Civilian Life You may be able to deduct some costs you incur while looking for a new job. Expenses may include travel, resume preparation fees, and outplacement agency fees. Moving expenses may be deductible if your move is closely related to the start of work at a new job location, and you meet certain tests.

Tax Help Most military installations offer free tax filing and preparation assistance during the filing season.

Tax Information IRS Publication 3, Armed Forces’ Tax Guide, summarizes many important military-related tax topics. Publication 3 can be downloaded from http://www.irs.gov or may be ordered by calling 1-800-TAX-FORM (800-829-3676).

Links:

Tax Information for Members of the U.S. Armed Forces

IRS Publication 3, Armed Forces’ Tax Guide ( PDF)

I don’t see anything about the mortgage interest deduction in the publication.

I can just hear my mom saying, “If all of your friends were jumping off into financial ruin by taking a neg-am teaser rate suicide loan would you?” And once you think that 500k loans for Staff Sergeants are reasonable, then it automatically follows that the problem is that prices are falling, not that they were too high.

I’m the only building insulation contractor in 2 large counties, so I work on almost every job.

We now specialize in infiltration/ex filtration control and when we do that work the house can be heated with a hair dryer. This work is a mandatory measure in the International Building Code but is never enforced.

CT how clean is the air in these homes? I would worry that all sorts of allergens would build up in a very tight home

Air to air heat exchangers are used, since 2011 they are mandatory.

The average home in this country leaks enough air in a day to fill a Goodyear blimp or two. We cut this down to a small fraction of 1 blimp. Insulation can’t work if it is bypassed.

Like that roll on permeable air barrier by Grace that everyone seems to be going to?

Are they HEPA clean? what about voc’s or using bleach in the bathrooms & floors to clean…how much of lysol stays in the tight home?

I worked in few tv stations that probably had sick building syndrome you could feel the negative air pressure Doors would slam pretty fast, and the buildup of chemicals dust from the cleaning crew….

Like that roll on permeable air barrier by Grace that everyone seems to be going to?

We use Owens Corning Energy Complete which is a 2 part laytex foam that is both flexible and durable.

NYDJ, again, air to air heat exchangers are required so air is exchanged while heat is retained. I hear about that felling of negative pressure when doors closed all the time, you can have this in a leaky house where the insulation is being by passed.

Thanks CT….of all the dumb things why didnt we at least demand building tight houses during this “boom”

How much does it take to do a good job vs a mediocre one?

How much does it take to do a good job vs a mediocre one?

Great question, since there is a code section requiring air sealing most building departments and inspectors have 1 little item they require like maybe a seal around doors and windows where one already exists or maybe a squirt of expandable/rigid foam in holes in top plates drilled for wires to penetrate. Inspectors can generally be satisfied with about $25 worth of work when $2k-$6k is required. The code calls for all joints, seams and openings in the building envelope to be sealed.

Thanks CT, yup i’ve noticed years ago the air leaks around electrical outlets and switches when replacing the covers..multiply that by 20-40 in the house could add up to a lot of leakage.

I live in an area of 70 year old plaster wall 2 fam brick houses, with very little insulation the walls sweat…and can feel the heat in summer….how could you retro fit these … would it be worth it?

What does an air-to-air heat exchanger cost to buy and run? Is it a reasonable thing for a SFH?

I pay about $85 a month on avg to heat/cool my ~2000 sq ft reasonably-well-insulated-and-sealed house, which doesn’t seem too expensive. I’m not sure I want to seal it to the nth degree, for the reasons NYCdj was stating, but if it can be done in such a way that I’m not sealed in with all the indoor pollutants, and it’s cost-effective, maybe I will.

how could you retro fit these … would it be worth it?

Assuming 2×4 stud walls with no insulation, I would drill 1-2″ holes in the plaster, at least one hole per cavity and pressure fill to achieve R-15.

Assuming leaky doors and windows the best case scenario would be to install new, efficient windows and permanently seal them as they are installed.

Assuming an attic space I would gasket all top plates and then cover with R-38 fiberglass.

I would suggest viewing the structure with an infra-red scanner when there is a temperature gradient to identify the weak points.

I would suggest a blower door test to determine the level of air leakage.

Any structure can be made energy efficient but the cost effectiveness will vary greatly depending on the construction and problems that need to be addressed.

What does an air-to-air heat exchanger cost to buy and run? Is it a reasonable thing for a SFH?

This article says $500 - $2,000

Air sealing can be difficult to retrofit. If you have an attic then it might make sense, we move or remove insulation on top plates and then seal and then insulate.

Most seams and joints are concealed but the top plates are generally a big problem. A blower door test will show how much leakage you have.

meh. It looks like another overpriced O-C system. I’ll maintain there is no better insulation… that’s right… insulation than Tyvek or Saranek… at least until spray cavity came along. Tyvek with spray cavity and flashed openings with adhesive achieves the same thing….. say roughly $4.50/floor plan sq ft., M&L.

Tyvek is not insulation, it has no R-value. Tyvek can contribute to air sealing but it has to be properly sealed and then it only seals seams and joints that it covers.

The biggest issues begin where they Tyvek ends, at the roof/wall interface. Moving inward we have all the seams in the “attic floor” each ceiling panel needs a seal at all 4 edges as well as at penetrations. Tyvek doesn’t compress and can’t create a gasket.

Tyvek will not seal the doors and windows because it cannot extend over the wall/window interface or the wall/door interface.

Tyvek cannot seal the door between the house and garage.

Tyvek cannot seal the HVAC closet / conditioned space interface.

Tyvek cannot address the attic access, seams between floors and sole plates, penetrations for plumbing, electrical, gas and exhaust ducks.

Leakage at electrical boxes can’t be sealed with Tyvek either.

The proof can be seen by doing a door blower test on a structure sealed with tyvek alone.

If I am going to seal a house and we omit foam gaskets and rely on the Tyvek then our price would likely drop from $2,500 to $1,800. We would have less seals to create but not a lot less.

This is what would scare me….drilling holes in very old plaster and wondering how much it would crack and the cost to repair it.

I would drill 1-2″ holes in the plaster

Spray cavity has the same issue as Tyvek, it only address in cavity leakage. Once the structure settles or the earth quakes even the in cavity sealing can fail due to cracking.

Using the “over priced O-C system” I can do a complete seal that will pass blower door tests for ENERGY STAR Compliance for 1/3 the price you are quoting. Relying on Tyvek and spray foam won’t get you to ENERGY STAR Compliance because most leakage comes from the attic.

I am speaking as a west coast contractor and I can see that a completely sprayed attic could be effective but at a significant cost.

“Tyvek is not insulation, it has no R-value.”

Try not using Tyvek and see how well your insulation works.;) Air movement is what the overrated O-C system attempts to prevent. I’m sure it does it well….. So does Tyvek at a very small fraction of the inflated cost of that O-C gasket system.

Given a choice, I’ll take Tyvek and bare cavities before no tyvek and insulated cavities.

“The biggest issues begin where they Tyvek ends, at the roof/wall interface. Moving inward we have all the seams in the “attic floor” each ceiling panel needs a seal at all 4 edges as well as at penetrations. Tyvek doesn’t compress and can’t create a gasket.”

You mean at top of walls, near the soffit. Tyvek extends up the walls before the soffit is built. It doesn’t need to compress.

“Tyvek will not seal the doors and windows because it cannot extend over the wall/window interface or the wall/door interface.”

Tyvek rolls around jamb, sill and header of all rough openings.

“Tyvek cannot seal the door between the house and garage.”

Neither does insulation. But caulk does. It prevents air movement.

“Tyvek cannot seal the HVAC closet / conditioned space interface.”

You’ll have to explain that one.

“Tyvek cannot address the attic access, seams between floors and sole plates, penetrations for plumbing, electrical, gas and exhaust ducks.”

Neither does insulation of any type. That’s why roof penetrations are booted and flashed. It’s prevents movement of air.

“Leakage at electrical boxes can’t be sealed with Tyvek either.”

And neither can insulation. That’s why IBC requires gaskets at all boxes.

“The proof can be seen by doing a door blower test on a structure sealed with tyvek alone.”

You’ll have to provide the data.

“If I am going to seal a house and we omit foam gaskets and rely on the Tyvek then our price would likely drop from $2,500 to $1,800. We would have less seals to create but not a lot less.”

At $4.50/sqft of floor plan for cavity spray and tyvek, how much more than that is this O-C system?

Mammoth Lakes, CA elevation 7,000 - 11,600′ most of town about 8,000′

We got 5 feet of snow this weekend.

1 degree F

now its minus 2 F brrrrrr

In the previous 2 years it snowed 100 feet here. These large snow packs do damage and then the builder gets sued. One suit I’m currently involved in the damage is due to snow load and the snow load requirements were met but they sue for insufficient design even though they provided the design.

how do you stay in business?

I have a monopoly

Tango…I am getting ready o start a house in the next couple of months…Can you give me some bullet points on what you are doing in infiltration/ex filtration control…Thanks…

“I have a monopoly”

Local monopolies make the world go round.

Sure Dave,

#1 every seam in the building envelope needs to be sealed but it isn’t cost effective to have the carpenters gasket all seams as they create them so infiltration is best addressed prior to insulation.

#2 product choice: the code says little about the products and as a result chewing gum would qualify. the 2 qualifications are ‘flexible and durable’, this means rigid foam which is sold as the best choice is a very poor choice, it will crack not flex. the other issue with rigid foam is that it only address in-cavity leakage where most seams are not in cavity.

#3 scope. The following openings in the building envelope must be caulked, gasketed, weatherstripped or otherwise sealed

1)Exterior joints around window and door frames, including doors between the house and garage, between interior HVAC closets and conditioned space, between attic access and conditioned space, and between wall sole plates, floors, exterior panels and all siding materials

2)Openings for plumbing, electricity, and gas lines in exterior walls, ceilings and floors;

3)Openings in the attic floor (such as where ceiling panels meet interior and exterior walls and masonry fireplaces);

4)Openings around exhaust ducts such as those for clothes dryers;

5)All other such openings in the building envelope

If you give me your zip I can find out if there is someone local that does this kind of work. If not I could do it for you. We also do blown in batts and can get R-24 in 2×6 walls and R-49 in 2 x 12 rafters for a very reasonable price. This combination can virtually eliminate heating costs.

When I moved here in 1980 there were a few insulation contractors but I out performed them and have been the only guy in 2 counties for over 30 years.

During this time 2 competitors appeared and both went BK.

It is actually a vulnerable place to be, it takes only 1 new competitor to change my world.

If you give me your zip I can find out if there is someone local that does this kind of work.

85705!

85705

checking

Slim,

Alcal Contracting…based in Phoenix.

CT,
We’re building this summer, new home
on the river. 97527 thanks, Rancher

Checking

Anyone in 21158? We actually experience winters here.

95008 Tango…Thanks so much I am going to print out your comments…I get the the idea though…Seal it up…Whats the caulking material that you use ??

Also, “Air-to-Air heat exchanger ?? Heat pump is what you are implying ?? F/A ??

My place will be 1500 sq.ft. single story…2 X 6 exterior…9 on 12 pitch with thermostat controlled attic fans…Slab on grade so I can’t do much there…

Caulk is not durable, most leakage occurs in concealed areas so you can’t replace the caulk as it fails. Caulk is a poor choice for other reasons ie it runs and doesn’t stay put in volume.

I’m not suggesting a heat pump, they are not cost effective here in Mammoth. I’m talking about Heat Recovery Ventilation, which at least has a FA component, your HVAC guy is the one to talk to, if he is up to speed he can inform you. They are required if your permit is 2011 or greater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation. Fart fans are one point where air to air is used.

With slab on grade make sure sill sealer is used. Stucco qualifies for the exterior walls, if so most of the work will be at the top plates.

I know Arcade insulation does air sealing, I’ll give you another contact if one exists.

I’m not talking about a heat pump, Heat recovery ventilation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation so FA is a component, your fart fans will need to have exchangers and beyond that I’m not sure what makes sense so talk to and HVAC guy ( hopefully he will be up to speed )

Slab on grade, make sure the sill is sealed, a portion of your work might be covered by stucco or Tyvek leaving most of the sealing work at the top plates.

SCDave,

Tri County Insulation….they are more active and ready anytime to install energycomplete.

Steve Gieseke at tri county cell is:415-203-0661

Tyvek (or like kind) will be used but I am not using stucco… Using Hardy-Board siding…I don’t believe I will need any shear so Tyvek is going on over bear studs then the Hardy-Board…We usually run a bead of Caulk under the mudsil…We usually use NP-1 or a flooring adhesive…

As far as the top plate’s, what do you do, run a bead in between the two plates ??

I have used Tri-County in the past…

Tyvek does qualify and it can reduce the air sealing costs but it does need to be thoroughly sealed top and bottom. One big negative on the Tyvek would be if any moisture got behind it and the bottom seal retained it. Personally I would seal as though there was no Tyvek.

At the top plates ( other than sealing electrical penetrations ) you want to create a gasket that sticks to the face of the plate. The drywall ceiling panel is sealed to the top plate by this gasket. Without these cealing panel seals air can leak into the warm side of your exterior walls or into your interior walls and it bypasses your insulation. Or air can leak in the other direction venting your heat into your attic.

Props to CharlieTango and the rest of the HBB Insulation/Air Sealing Team. I’m learning a lot from what you have to say.

Okay Tango…So, on the Truss ends do you back out in between the two foot centers so the sheet-rock has solid backing all the way across the run of the wall…Is that how you seal the top plate ??

I’m still waiting for Charlie to disclose the cost of this system.

Okay Tango…So, on the Truss ends do you back out in between the two foot centers so the sheet-rock has solid backing all the way across the run of the wall…Is that how you seal the top plate ??

With 2′ oc trusses, the trusses are the backing, the sheetrock nails or screws to the bottom of the bottom chord and no sealing takes place there.

Even though a room might have multiple sheets of drywall seamed together think of theses as a single ceiling panel and the perimeter of this ceiling panel butts to the top plates of the walls. The seams in the field are sealed with tape and mud so no leaks there. but where the edges of this ceiling panel butt to the top plates on the interior and exterior wall top plates there can be leaks. I’m not talking about leaking into the living space but leaking into the very tight warm space immediately behind the drywall on the exterior walls and leaking into the entire cavity on the interior walls. A gasket/seal at the edge of each ceiling panel where it buts to the wall’s top plate and is where we want the seal.

The wording used in the IRC is “seams in the attic floor” this literally means the interface between the drywall ceiling panes and the wall’s top plate.

IOW you seal the edge of the ceiling panel.

I’m still waiting for Charlie to disclose the cost of this system.

I bid this work by the linear foot of seal plus some waste or allowance for filling some big spaces. If the exterior has shear panel and the seams are horizontal then I would have 3 horizontal seams the length of the 8′ wall. If the seams are vertical I would have 2 horizontal seams and 1 vertical seam every 4′.

There are many such variables to consider so there is no cost to disclose, we have to bid on a job by job basis.

To date I have sealed houses for as little as $800 and as much as $6,000.

Rancher 97527

There is no-one even close to your area. When you have plans send me a copy and I’ll bid it for you.

Are you close to the airport? If not do you have a stretch of strait road or drive way that could serve as a runway for a very small plane? I usually stop to pee at Alturas on my way to Portland but could stop by your place for a look see.

So what is your price /linear foot of this gasket? Bare cost for the gasket.

Comment by exeter

So what is your price /linear foot of this gasket? Bare cost for the gasket.

The gasket is a 2 part laytex foam that requires specialized equipment to spray. We can only sell it installed.

Would we be talking more or less than a days work? How far from my shop? How high do we need to reach? Will we be working in small confined spaces. Do I have to heat the structure? Will you be helping? ( that costs extra ) Do I need to guarantee passing a blower door test? Are there liquidated damages for slow performance? etc, etc, etc.

You seem reticent to answer the question. What is your linear foot charge?

Comment by exeter - You seem reticent to answer the question. What is your linear foot charge?

I don’t do the estimating and I’m not at the office, given that here is my best guestimate.

$0.85/LinFt would probably be the base price if we could price things that way.

Ok so typical single story 3/2 ranch. Give us a rough guesstimate of total lf. of gasket.

typical 3/2 ranch over raised sub-floor, 12′ cathedral ceilings

seal:
Exterior walls:
bottom plate face
top plate face
bottom plate shear interface
top plate shear interface
mid span shear seam blocking top and bottom
jack studs
electrical boxes
all corners (vertical seal)

Interior walls:
top plate face

penetrations in floor
penetrations in top plates
penetrations in exterior walls

FAU to living space

price range $2k - $3k

So $2500 for gaskets in a 1600sqft and we haven’t started insulation install yet.

“Caulk is not durable, most leakage occurs in concealed areas so you can’t replace the caulk as it fails. Caulk is a poor choice for other reasons ie it runs and doesn’t stay put in volume.”

Nonsense. Caulks, sealants and joint fillers are very effective for decades so long as the correct material is specified and installed. Sika, Pecora and Adeka are examples of durable, long lasting material that outperform HomeCheapo junk. We specify and use Sika-Dur 2 part joint fillers for expansion joints in interior water holding structures that have been in service for 20 years without leaks or repair.

So $2500 for gaskets in a 1600sqft and we haven’t started insulation install yet.

That’s correct but the big benefit is that the insulation envelope can function as opposed to being bypassed.

Often our next step is “super insulation” meaning extremely high R-values and even “thermal breaks.” The low here this morning was 4 degrees below zero F. I have customers that don’t even use heat, some wake up with 70 degree temps even on these cold mornings.

We routinely use R-25 to R-30 in the walls and R-49 in roof areas. We have gone as high as R-100. There is very little point in super insulating a leaky structure.

Even now in 2012 most/almost all insulation installs are not fully lofted or continuous, in order to pass inspection the package merely has to exist, if there is any “quality” involved in the install you can actually claim additional points.

$2,500 for mandatory air sealing that isn’t enforced is in no way a waist and if you add it to the cost of insulation you are missing the point.

I built my house in 1989 before air sealing systems existed ( but the requirements did ) and I super insulated my solar design. I have R-49 roof insulation and R-30 in my exterior walls, R-38 in my floors and much more. My home is not very comfortable and it costs $1k/moth to heat my 1,400 sq ft of living space. The solar works well but night time heat costs a fortune because the house lacks air-sealing.

If I could go back and spend that $2,500 my bills would be very very low and that $2,500 would have been “paid back” more than 20 times.

You’re falsely asserting that one overpriced option is the only way to preclude movement of air. There are other ways to do and a fraction of the cost. I understand what OC’s system does and I know OC’s business model well. Their customers have no idea.

Nonsense. Caulks, sealants and joint fillers are very effective for decades so long as the correct material is specified and installed. Sika, Pecora and Adeka are examples of durable, long lasting material that outperform HomeCheapo junk. We specify and use Sika-Dur 2 part joint fillers for expansion joints in interior water holding structures that have been in service for 20 years without leaks or repair.

First of all we are not quite comparing apples to apples here, filling expansion joints tends to be a commercial application, at least around here where I am talking about §117 compliance and mostly in wood framed structures. I recently backed out of a bid on a marine base where the specs had these two areas confused and the architect failed to clarify his specs upon me submitting RFIs.

When I say durable I am talking beyond 20 years and for the type of air sealing that needs to be done in residential construction caulk has a shorter lifespan than the structure.

When it come to air sealing residential construction the products that you list are never specified at least not out here in the west and they are more suitable to sealing seams in concrete / masonry than wood framing and material at issue in sealing residential.

You’re falsely asserting that one overpriced option is the only way to preclude movement of air. There are other ways to do and a fraction of the cost. I understand what OC’s system does and I know OC’s business model well. Their customers have no idea.

au contraire, I never asserted that at all but now that you mention it I don’t mind taking that position.

If i were building my own house and this technology were not available I would simple follow the code and gasket all seams and joints and openings in the building envelope. I would have ( probably felt ) gaskets handy and install them in all seams, joints and openings during construction.

The problem with this approach is that it would multiply the cost of framing, siding and roofing.

I too understand OCF’s model and I have a level of influence over it. I have personally spent millions of dollars on their products.

I contend that OCF’s Energy Complete is the most cost effective system to achieve a high level of compliance with §117 in residential construction and beyond. In a few short hours I can comply with energy star requirements in a single process, you just can’t beat that.

I never stated or implied that this is the only way to stop air leakage but I have never even seen an alternative and you have not even provided one to consider.

If as you stated that compliance can be accomplished for a fraction of the cost please describe it for us.

Not true. A joint is a joint is a joint. You’re filling a void with a product. Nor does the substrate doesn’t matter. Selecting the appropriate product for the substrate and environment is the approach irrespective of of what or where the joint is. If “residential construction caulk” doesn’t work, then don’t specify it. Thus the appropriate elastomer or butyl joint filler or sealant is specified. OC’s pink goo isn’t anything special. It’s a heavily marketed pink butyl sealant.

I never stated or implied that this is the only way to stop air leakage but I have never even seen an alternative and you have not even provided one to consider.

You did imply it numerous times. Even in the same post. lmao

Secondly, I stated that precluding air movement is the goal and Tyvek does it at a fraction of the cost of OC’s pink goo. WR Grace’s perma-barrier system is another. How many would like?

You clearly have an equity stake in getting the public to believe OC’s marketing hype. I don’t. I couldn’t care less what anyone uses. Being truthful about seems to be something you avoid.

Secondly, I stated that precluding air movement is the goal and Tyvek does it at a fraction of the cost of OC’s pink goo.

Tyvek is applied to specific areas, generally exterior walls. You miss most of the leakage if this is your only target.

Door blower test tell the story and your technique will result in failure and a need to demolish the construction and try again. You can’t seal areas that you don’t address.

Now you say that I clearly have an equity stake in this, well sorry you are clearly wrong. I cannot afford such an equity stake.

I am the one that pointed out that even chewing gum could comply but what is needed is a cost effective solution and after 40 years or working in this area I am aware of one cost effective solution. You say that I am wrong but you have no alternative.

You have an equity stake. You admitted so.

I gave you two commercially available alternatives to the heavily marketed, overpriced OwensCorning system. You don’t like them because they are your competitors. Running away from those alternatives won’t make them go away.

Monopolists don’t have to offer alternatives.

They are the alternative, which can be a problem with monopolies.

I got out, and I’m damn happy I did. That 15k a year I was paying California in taxes will come in handy.

NY is running a close second to CA in property taxes. They’re getting more insane each year.

The only reason I work mostly in California is my non-resident status gives me a huge tax deduction while consulting

Don’t tell the school marm

The only reason I work mostly in California is my non-resident status gives me a huge tax deduction while consulting

A professional sports athlete who is a resident of another state has to pay California income taxes for the events he participates in within California.

Small ranchers spend hours a day counting and tagging herds, so it’s the paperwork that scares them (ranchers generally hate computers and technology), not the act of tagging. Sometimes resistance to change is psychological more than anything else.

They’ll blame it on anyone but the perp.

The Perp? Federal Reserve.

No. My posts ask a question about a glaring omission from MSM reports.

With the facts in hand, readers of a free press newspaper may speculate all they want about what actually happened, who was at fault, etc.

But I see you have already jumped the shark.

No I am just telling you what I am getting out of your posts about this crazy dude.

I really don’t care who held the note. Not sure why it really matters? Sure goldman had their nose in it one way or another.

“Not sure why it really matters?”

Last time I checked, which was perhaps too long ago, we had a free press in America. Is the bank which held the note a matter of public record? If so, I would like to know which bank it was. And I am pretty sure one of our many newspapers will soon make that information public, unless it is confidential.

It’s not about the staff sergeant at all; it’s about basic American freedoms.

P.S. I doubt Goldman was involved (at least this time…).

+1

Eggs-actly.

It’s relevant to a key point I repeatedly try to make on this blog, about the problems which naturally arise when Wall Street investment banks get involved with mundane details of household-level mortgage transactions.

Capiche?

It’s only a matter of time before the media cranks out some sob stories about it. Give them time…

No. I have no idea why you care so much.

It is likely that there is a bank servicer and since it is in default, the note has likely been assigned to a tranche of bonds that it was securitized into.

Why do you care so much who the servicer is?

The articles I am seeing are much more concerned with the fact that a part of his foot was blown off in a previous deployment and that he may (or may not) have had a traumatic brain injury in addition to PTSD and possible drinking issues.

“No. I have no idea why you care so much.”

I see this arrangement whereby large investment banks (such as your former employer) have carte blanche to destroy individual American lives as very destructive to the future of our country.

Does that help?

(And don’t ask me the legal definition of carte blanche — I don’t know and don’t care.)

“…possible drinking issues.”

I would drink, too, if I were deployed overseas while one of the biggest, baddest investment banks in the world came after my wife in a foreclosure action.

Not trying to suggest who is at fault here, or anything…

I never worked for Goldman Sachs. I worked for a law firm that GS often hired.

Thanks for the clarification.

That said, I still wonder how many Americans are keen on a financial sector that operates on a razor thin edge between profit maximization and fraud? I suspect that (1) many Americans are barely waking up to the situation and (2) they aren’t too keen on it.

While I was back east, I had quite a few conversations with a local real estate agent. She was helping my family with errands about town.

Nice lady who’s been in the biz for about two decades. Seemed like she was really on the up-and-up and I wouldn’t be at all unhappy if my folks chose her as the agent to sell their house.

One of our conversations related to the prevalence of buying houses as investments. Seems that such behavior was quite common in the western half of the USA, and guess what? Some of her relatives got involved. Long story short: Things did not turn out well for them.

As for her, she limits her real estate biz to selling houses to people who aren’t so interested in investments as they are in buying places that they can make into a family home. She also sells houses for people who have the same mindset. The whole “buy the house as an investment” thing seemed pretty odd to her.

I have argued that the distinction isn’t between homes as investment versus homes to live in. A home is an investment for which the return is housing, the so-called “rental equivalent.” It’s probably worthwhile to look at it this way to see whether purchase at current prices makes sense. Certainly at bubble prices it didn’t make sense. The problem is with looking at homes as a SPECULATIVE investment. Which is to say not looking at the rental equivalent of the housing that you get, but at the possibility (or certainty as many believed) that the price would keep going up forever above the rate of inflation.

I thought Ben said this years ago:

Positive cash flow= investment
Negative cash flow= speculation

Or was it my bricklayer father?

The problem is with looking at homes as a SPECULATIVE investment.

That’s what made the aforementioned real estate agent-friend’s eyebrows go up. She doesn’t get the speculative thing at all.

And, apparently, there aren’t a lot of people who come to eastern PA to be speculators. Reason: There are too many folks who have deep roots in the area. Outsiders who swoop in to speculate are looked down upon.

Is this a trick question?

Illegals have destroyed any chance of anyone but the jobber and the GC from making a living in construction in my town ??

Probably can say for every town other than the big strongholds for unions like San Francisco…

Frame, sheathed, decked and sided for $8/floor plan sqft?

yes…

About the same on east coast. Figure $6/sqft floorplan for framing labor…. assuming there aren’t a herd of valleys, dormers and gables….. and roughly $1/sqft wall area for EFS.

Now you’ll have to explain why you can’t build for $60/sq in CA.

“Now you’ll have to explain why you can’t build for $60/sq in CA.”

The high costs are driven by land costs, not material costs. If anything, most SoCal houses are cheap, junky construction, with crappy stucco finishes and are all built on concrete slabs (which does wonders for making them feel cold in the mild California Winters).

A few years ago, the Disney Co bought a parcel of land a block away from Disneyland and paid almost 1 million per acre.

“Now you’ll have to explain why you can’t build for $60/sq in CA.” ??

Look forward to explaining, just define what your definition of “Build” is….

Disneyland and paid almost 1 million per acre ??

Chump Change around here :)…

Big boys are paying 4-mil + per acre for the high density stuff in the best locations…Single family detached in the best locations is well over 2-mil per acre ($50. per foot +)…

Site work to shingles.

In a way you can’t blame them, as they are seeing prices even rising in the nabes they want, while places like Aurora languish in foreclosure hell.

My son played a soccer match in Broomfield. It was a nice sports complex, surrounded by McMansions. The parking lot was chock full of expensive vehicles.

It’s amazing how these islands of prosperity exist. But I’m coming to realize that the managerial class types want to live near each other and have no appetite for places like Aurora, regardless of how much cheaper it is.

…because if they did live somewhere more “colorful”, they’d have to face the reality of the income gaps and how they’re responsible for it just as much as their bosses.

…because if they did live somewhere more “colorful”, they’d have to face the reality of the income gaps and how they’re responsible for it just as much as their bosses.

Or they might finding themselves becoming more sympathetic to the “colorful” people and the reality of income gaps and their responsibility. And they might just switch sides.

I doubt it. I think that generally people just try to minimize the stress in their lives, and living around people who are just like you minimizes stress. It can lead to boredom and ignorance especially among your children, but it is low stress for you.

Sentimentalism about diversity goes out the window when you’re actually raising kids.

Carl, that’s also true.

Montana you are also right. I only meant to illustrate that group think blinds people to the rest of the world around them and group think among the well off makes them callous toward those less fortunate.

That’s the problem — still haven’t turned on the coffee maker. It’s making me unusually cantankerous…

Yup…a long, drawn-out sucker’s rally it is. We’ve seen this movie before, lots of times in recent years!

Thank god for the air-to-air heat exchanger.

Oh crap…

Soon to be guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the US Government, no doubt…

correct–not sure why he repeated “folks” and then acted like it was a weird word… and then acted like I was slighting anyone in particular. I was thanking Ben *and* the community.

The experiences and personalities of the whole HBB community provide a critical mass that help distill the important lessons from this. Accounts from mikeinbend and JeffSaturday down in florida are unlike the mindless MSM “victim” stories on the crisis.

The most influential contributors in re-shaping my view of housing/the economy have been CIBT, FPSS, oxide, AZ slim, XGFer, in Colorado, RAL, polly, and Ben J himself. I really did scrutinize my realtor and inspector using things learned here over 3-4 yr period. But also re-thought what I had learned in formal educational settings and conventional wisdom over the years.

I think he’s puzzled about why you keep putting “folks” in quotation marks like it’s some odd word ??

Inadvertent really…

I don’t recall hearing that anyone filed a patent on relativity during his time there…

Mr. Rogers’ house was somewhere on Beechwood Boulevard in Squirrel Hill. As often as I bicycled that street, I never figured out which house was his.

OTOH, I had a roommate who said that she saw Mr. Rogers with one of his adult children. They were outside the house and the kid was having a meltdown. Shouting “I love my daddy!” and that sort of thing.

Don’t know if this actually happened, but it was a good story nonetheless.

Oh, so the people forcing their religion on everyone else are now called ‘liberal conservatives’? By whom? Other than yourself.

Conservatives may claim to want to be left alone, but they are fine with inflicting their ‘common sense’ and ‘family values’ on everyone else. As we have seen.

Oh, so the people forcing their religion on everyone else are now called …

The desire to not fund abortion is not forcing our religion on everyone else. In my case I have abandoned my religion ( Catholicism ) but I retain my abhorrence for abortion as well as my belief that I should/will not be force to fund your killing of not yet born human beings.

Your claim that access to birth control is at issue is a joke. Why do you equate public funding to access? Go to your local gas station, your local elementary school, your local drug store and you can access birth control.

Are you saying that if someone else doesn’t pay for it that you don’t have access? Lets be honest.

Liberals are not low IQ. Alpha Slob is low IQ.

Hey Bill- I’ll offer you ten-to-one odds, on any amount, that my IQ is higher than yours. Want to bet?

Charlie- Most conservatives want to outlaw abortion, not just stop the public funding of it. And conservatives are fine with gay marriage? Then why do they support a constitutional amendment to ban it?

They want control of their own personal space, and everyone else’s.

My wager’s on Alpha.

AZslim, I hear you on the taking care of parents thing. This is why I am so glad we are close to many hospitals and we live 2 miles from my in-laws. There may be unexpected twists and turns down the road, but access to top notch medical care should not be an issue. We are also going to finish the basement in such a way that it can become an in law suite down the road.

As far as our old age, it does seem like most parents rely on one child anyway. But we live well below our means and want to live in this area a long time (life?) so things could be much worse. But yes, I have learned from your account and those of others here on the board.

A good topic for the board sometime might be–how to prepare for your own old age. What types of insurance to carry (long term care?) and so forth.

Asians are the fasted increasing group in terms of %.

Even students whose parents speak no English at home are usually out of ESL pull-out sections by 3rd grade. Of 75 3rd graders this year, less than 10 get pulled for ESL during the day.

DJ, I think you are confusing adult or adolescent immigrants with students who were born here or who begin school in grade K. These children want to learn English, their parents want them to learn it, and are distributed fairly evenly in terms of achievement–some are at the top of the class, most in the middle, and a few at the low end.

A recent social studies essay I helped my wife grade was an exercise where students interviewed a family member about their own history. Among the hispanic and asian students, the nearly-universal theme was that immigrating was the biggest decision of the parent/grandparents’ lives and the reason given was so that their children could get an education and a better life. Long story short, these parents expect their children to learn english and do “better” than them.

The stories of lazyness and intergenerational poverty are almost without exception among downscale whites and blacks. With rare exceptions, these parents never show up to open houses or conferences. Many (most?) receive government money. And they move a LOT, so their kids switch schools frequently. And whereas the asian and hispanic parents work 2 or 3 jobs per couple (several run small businesses like restaurants) there are quite a few white and black parents where no one works at all.

I’d be more interested in the grade level competency and the class sizes than the racial composition. But since your wife teaches in the building, I’m sure you will know plenty about the school before any kids are even a thought. There are some social issues with your kid being one of the wealthiest in their class, but, again, with your wife in the building, you’ll be well placed to know if it is a problem.

Exactly when this group grows trouble follows….

The stories of lazyness and intergenerational poverty are almost without exception among downscale whites and blacks

Methinks that Tim Tebow will find himself praying on the sidelines. And I don’t think he’ ll like that very much.

Tebow will be traded, he’s probably going to FL

“Tebow will be traded, he’s probably going to FL”

That’s what’s being said here. I think it would be hilarious if Manning had a season ending injury in game 1 this Fall.

The one thing I don’t like about living here is the Broncos fanaticism. They can be playing back to back losing seasons and Mile High is packed every game day.

Then again, I’m not big on NFL (I like the CFL more).

The one thing I don’t like about living here is the Broncos fanaticism. They can be playing back to back losing seasons and Mile High is packed every game day.

My wife is from the Cleveland area so I was used to that before I ever moved to Colorado.

The one thing I don’t like about living here is the Broncos fanaticism. They can be playing back to back losing seasons and Mile High is packed every game day.

Just like the University of Arizona men’s basketball team is here. They’re all but worshiped here.

Hate to break the news, but neither they nor the rest of the Pac-12 lit it up this year. Only top 25 ranked team was from Stanford. And that would be the women’s team.

They can be playing back to back losing seasons and Mile High is packed every game day.

You could say the same thing about the Patriots at Foxboro or the Red Sox at Fenway. Always packed, always hard to get tickets. I think the waiting list for season tickets for either is measured in decades…

I think it would be hilarious if Manning had a season ending injury in game 1 this Fall.

I’m not sure it would be “hilarious,” but I personally think Manning should have called it quits as a player and moved directly to QB coach in Indy. Manning was an outstanding player who carried an entire mediocre team — there seems to be universal agreement about that — but he has the potential to be an even better coach. And when he gets sick of coaching, he can announce. He’s already shown an affinity for the camera.

I’m talking about the vehicular Vulva’s. Yes they’re overpriced and effeminate. lmao.

I know, ex.

I just wanted to bust Alpha’s chops. You know, it’s all relative in Kentucky.

it’s all relative in Kentucky.

Don’t let my sister-wife hear you say that. She’ll whoop the tar out of you.

You can fix that kind of stupid.

Okay, how? Is it stupid that requires metric tools? Or English?

A lot of them are coming with 400 HP engines. Of course, any self respecting sports sedan will leave one of those behemoths in the dust. And a true muscle car will blow their crew cab doors off.

And that truck is about 3.5 tons too. Duramax/Allison is a badassed combo.

Community colleges seem to have a real knack for setting slow-to-launch young adults on a solid path. Happened to a neighbor a few years back.

She turned her back on a university PhD program and was in a real quandary about what to do next. She knew it had something to do with computers, but wasn’t sure about the specifics.

So, she started taking community college computer courses and is now employed full-time in the computer field.

Likewise, a former boss’ son. He was a real failure to launch case, but now he’s on fire about computer science and electrical engineering. He’s at community college so he can get certified and get into the field.

Sounds like the university engineering degree may come later, but who knows. Right now, we’re glad that he’s finally figured out what to do with his life. ‘Bout time. He’s almost 30.