The Housing Bubble

Ryan’s message is clear. We need to get rid of Medicare and SS. As Newt said, “let it wither on the vine”.

I find the worship of Ryan a little weird, but eventually he is going to have to specify which tax breaks he is going to eliminate to make his rate reductions revenue neutral. Then the fights over the lost deductions will start in some camps (see what would happen if he tried to eliminate charitable deductions) and the wonks will crunch numbers and show that the stuff he plans to eliminate won’t come close to closing the gap.

Remember he has already promised to leave defense spending at least as high as a portion of GDP as it is now (I think around 3.75%). The other numbers that he puts forth (never even mind the fakery of the closing loopholes to pay for rate reductions) means eliminating all the federal government besides SS, Medicare, Medicaid (I think that is preserved as a block grant program), and Defense. All of it. No embassies. No passports. No federal highways. No one taking care of the nukes. No public health. No federally funded research (except for defense funded). Amtrak would probably shut down everything but the Northeast corridor and even that might not last. No FDA. No disaster relief. No food stamps. No funding for school lunch program. No [fill in any program that helps you and/or your family].

And the states would have to raise their taxes to fill in the holes.

“let it wither on the vine”

Some in “Thee South” tends to like things all twi$ted & chokey, like their beloved Kudzu.

United States
Main article: Kudzu in the United States

Kudzu was introduced from Japan into the United States at the Japanese pavilion in the 1876 Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia. It is now common along roadsides and other undisturbed areas throughout most of the southeastern United States. Kudzu has been spreading at the rate of 150,000 acres (61,000 ha) annually

Polly, what Ryan voter is going to read all that, much less understand it? And Ryan will just take your list of “no embassies, no one taking care of nukes, no FDA, no food stamps etc” and re-label it as “Freeeeeeedom.”

That’s what those $5 million are for.

In Japan, they actually tend their forest by hand, and cut the vines before they can overtake the trees.

“…Amtrak would probably shut down everything but the Northeast corridor and even that might not last. No FDA. No disaster relief. No food stamps. No funding for school lunch program. No [fill in any program that helps you and/or your family].”

Good Grief polly, with statements like that you’re gonna catch Mr. Cantankerous on the inside rail to this weeks “Eeyore Award!”

“they actually tend their forest by hand, and cut the vines before they can overtake the trees.”

Looks like theys comes to a different result from: “reconstruction + civil rights”

Oh, and remember that Medicare becomes a voucher program with the voucher increasing in size at a substantially smaller rate than medical costs increase. So the seniors are going to have to find that magical insurance company eager to cover seniors who have less voucher money to spend (compared to the cost of treating them) and have to make up the difference from their SS or savings. What happens when the first one says that you have to sign a DNR to get our insurance and they tell the hospitals that they won’t pay for services provided in opposition to the DNR? Maybe they will also require a tattoo on the back of granny’s hand to make sure everyone knows about it.

Lets do it. Execute it now for everyone and we’ll see how quickly the blue hairs jettison their rightwing talking points.

“No embassies. No passports. No federal highways. No one taking care of the nukes. No public health. No federally funded research (except for defense funded). Amtrak would probably shut down everything but the Northeast corridor and even that might not last. No FDA. No disaster relief. No food stamps. No funding for school lunch program. No [fill in any program that helps you and/or your family].”

1. Isn’t ‘taking care of the nukes’ part of military spending?

2. Presumably all of this just establishes a ‘lowball’ negotiating position before discussing what parts of the federal government to leave intact and what parts to dismantle?

3. The Soviet Union pretty much dismantled their federal bureaucracy back around 1989. How’d that work out for them?

I don’t think this is his lowball. I think he really wants to do it.

And, no. Unless a nuke is actually ready to launch or on a sub, the Department of Energy takes care of it. I think they run Los Alamos National Labs too. And maybe Sandia? That is why the whining about eliminating DoE is such garbage. They’d have to transfer the nuclear stuff to defense which means a giant chunk of the functionality would still be part of the government. Somewhere along the way, someone thought that it wasn’t a great idea for the military to have control of all the nukes. Maybe it doesn’t matter now that we could probably turn the world’s population centers into molten glass with just the stuff in the submarines, but it used to be considered important. I like the idea of civilian control of the excess nukes, myself.

“…the Department of Energy takes care of it.”

Thanks for the reminder.

Isn’t this department on the Republican hit list? (Don’t remember if it was on Rick Perry’s hit list or not…)

Who says all our nukes are military? When’s the last time you flipped a light switch?

Know your memes:

Real men (John Galt, producer types) burn oil and coal.
Renewable energy and Toyota Prius are for SISSIES!

From CIBC’s Russia link, 4 reasons are cited for declining population.

“The primary causes of Russia’s population decrease and loss of about 700,000 to 800,000 citizens each year are a high death rate, low birth rate, high rate of abortions, and a low level of immigration.”

“During the Soviet era, abortion was quite common and was utilized as a method of birth control. That technique remains common and quite popular today, keeping the country’s birth rate exceptionally low. According to a Russian news source, there are more abortions than births in Russia.
The online news source mosnews.com reported that in 2004 1.6 million women had abortions in Russia while 1.5 million gave birth. In 2003, the BBC reported that Russia had, “13 terminations for every 10 live births.”

Wow!

“Additionally, immigration into Russia is low - immigrants are primarily a trickle of ethnic Russians moving out of former republics (but now independent countries) of the Soviet Union. Brain drain and emigration from Russia to Western Europe and other parts of the world is high as native Russians seek to better their economic situation.”

Immigration has been keeping population increasing in the US.

If the Republicans have their way and social programs are pushed to the states, will we see net out-migration from the states that have relied most on federal dollars? Will long-term trends see anti-abortion states, like Mississippi, send their excess population to other states? If social conservatives really want to win the culture wars, would a demographic solution work - encourage abortion and birth control among social liberals and discourage it among their own?

“If the Republicans have their way … would a demographic solution work - encourage abortion and birth control among social liberals and discourage it among their own?”

I’m thinking this is where religion can play a big role: Republicans typically follow religions which discourage abortion and, in some cases, birth control; other variants encourage large families. But if fiscal austerity measures lead to a greater concentration of wealth in the hands of the 1% and poverty among the 99%, one might guess the heathen Democrats will resort to higher use of birth control and abortion to avoid adding to their poverty burden. Soon the Democratic genotype will represent a declining share of the population, while the genetic traits which select for a conservative Republican mindset will represent an ever-increasing share. Before long, socially-Darwinist conservative Republicans will be able to take over the world!

“It’s about this idea that if the 1% own all the wealth that the country will be better off.”

Yes, that’s been tried in the past, over and over, down through the ages. Resulting in nasty things like torture, indentured servitude, raids in the middle of the night, people thrown in prison on whim….oh, wait….

One of the reasons that the US even came about in the first place was rebellion against 1% owning all of the wealth, with a little bit of desire for religious freedom thrown in.

Choose your evil… communism or fascism. At the extremes, that is what we have today with the two party system. Preferring personal liberty and little FedGov intrusion in my life, I would choose neither.

Having to make a choice, I’ll choose the side that makes me work for the successes in life, as opposed to the one which promotes government dependence. I’ll choose the side which would rather cut taxes on the wealthy and cut government social programs to pay for it than raise taxes on all of us to keep the dead weight of social programs born of the New Deal alive.

They are both bad choices, but I was raised that hard work and struggle builds character and that life isn’t always fair. As long as the polarization of moderate attitudes exists, there will be little common ground for those in the middle. Given that, I will try to choose the lessor of two evils. Such is politics…

Just make sure you don’t choose the side that makes you work with no possiblity of success or prosperity. The side that taxes you at a higher rate than those in the top 0.1%. The side that promotes monopolies and oligopolies that fix prices and crush competition. The side that does away with all regulation so financial types are free to steal your wealth. The side that has run up the vast majority of the national debt over the last 30 years.

The side that robs economic opportunity from everyone and offshores it.

Probably both sides of the same coin.

don’t choose the side that makes you work with no possiblity of success or prosperity.

That is a risk on either side of the aisle…

The side that taxes you at a higher rate than those in the top 0.1%.

I haven’t heard a single Repub say they wanted to raise my taxes… based on our 2011 tax returns, we’re at approx $160k AGI, a level where we lose most deductions. While I dislike the preferential treatment of capital over labor in our tax code, I’ll take that over raising my taxes any day.

The side that promotes monopolies and oligopolies that fix prices and crush competition.

I’m pretty sure both sides do that: Wasn’t it the Obama administration who bailed out GM and Chrysler, to the detriment of Ford, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc? Wasn’t it Barney Frank who supported Fannie and Freddie? Both are Dem’s as I recall.

The side that does away with all regulation so financial types are free to steal your wealth.

Glass-Steagall was repealed by Bill Clinton, a democrat, in 1999. NAFTA was accomplished in 1994, during the Clinton administration.

As I stated, I’ll try to choose the lessor of two evils as I see it…

“Glass-Steagall was repealed by Bill Clinton, a democrat, in 1999. NAFTA was accomplished in 1994, during the Clinton administration.”

Amen, brothah!

“I’m pretty sure both sides do that: Wasn’t it the Obama administration who bailed out GM and Chrysler, to the detriment of Ford, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc?”

I don’t give a rat’s patootie about importers of vehicles. Yeah, I know, they assemble some cars here, in many cases with a very high foreign content.

That said, the big 3 also import vehicles and components.

“Glass-Steagall was repealed by Bill Clinton, a democrat, in 1999.”

Amazingly, the names Gramm, Leach, and Bliley are conveniently omitted from the discussion.

“Following diplomatic negotiations dating back to 1986 among the three nations, the leaders met in San Antonio, Texas, on December 17, 1992, to sign NAFTA. U.S. President George H. W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas, each responsible for spearheading and promoting the agreement, ceremonially signed it.”

I’m in sales. I get it. But why do partisans always act like they’re not spinning things?

Glass-Steagall was repealed by Bill Clinton, a democrat, in 1999 ??

Nice try Northeasterner;

Respective versions of the legislation were introduced in the U.S. Senate by Phil Gramm (Republican of Texas) and in the U.S. House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa). The third lawmaker associated with the bill was Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R-Virginia), Chairman of the House Commerce Committee..

And a Veto by Clinton would have been futile;

On November 4, the final bill resolving the differences was passed by the Senate 90-8,[14][note 4] and by the House 362-57.[15][note 5] The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999.[16]

Presidents have vetoed legislation before when they knew their veto would be overridden. Another attempt to give the Dems a pass.

Was the House of Representatives really 362 Republicans and just 57 Democrats back in 1999?

Agreed, Bill. I use, “Who could have vetoed (whatever bill) and didn’t?” often.

I haven’t heard a single Repub say they wanted to raise my taxes… based on our 2011 tax returns,

Looks like at least somebody wanted to NOT raise your taxes — the evil Nancy Pelosi.

The House of Representatives voted 234 to 188 Thursday to permanently extend the Bush tax cuts on incomes up to $250,000.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/02/house-passes-middle-class-tax-cuts-over-gop-objections/

The R’s stomped their little foot and wanted the rich to benefit too and blocked it in the Senate. As a result, your taxes will probably go up next year.

Northeasterner:

You say this:

I’ll choose the side that makes me work for the successes in life, as opposed to the one which promotes government dependence.

and then you say this:

I was raised that hard work and struggle builds character and that life isn’t always fair.

Isn’t it your philosophy that an economy where people earn their income is more fair than an economy where people get their income from welfare checks? Why then do you imply that fairness is unimportant?

Another attempt to give the Dems a pass ??

Thats Bull$!&& Bill….Not giving Clinton a pass at all but showing that his signing was irrelevant to its ultimate passage and in direct contradiction with Northesterners implication that it repeal was due to Clinton…

This legislation was created & Driven by Republicans…

Why then do you imply that fairness is unimportant?

“Life is not fair” = “fairness is unimportant”?

Not quite what I said…

I’ll choose the side that makes me work for the successes in life, as opposed to the one which promotes government dependence

You sound like a parrot.

You sound like a parrot.

Rio want a cracker? Is that better?

Too bad personal attacks are all that you could contribute to the discussion today, Rio.

Too bad personal attacks are all that you could contribute to the discussion today,

To bad trite, scripted right-wing talking points are all that you could contribute to the discussion today. You sound like a parrot.

To bad trite, scripted right-wing talking points are all that you could contribute to the discussion today. You sound like a parrot.

Epic Fail… kind of like your liberal agenda.

kind of like your liberal agenda.

See? I told ya. No thought whatsoever.

To bad trite, scripted right-wing talking points are all that you could contribute to the discussion today. You sound like a parrot.

See? I told ya. No thought whatsoever.

What’s it like being so hypocritical?

“Choose your evil… communism or fascism.”

At this point, I think the Republican party is much closer to fascism than the Democratic party is to communism.

I have seen reports of studies that we are all emtional thinkers that rationalize our decisions. I think these were studies of purchasing. If I get motivated, I may try to find links to these reports sometime.

You mean the intelligent party and voters that
1. Distrust science.
2. Don’t believe in evolution and support intelligent design.
3. Don’t believe that 7 billion people burning fossil fuel won’t affect the climate.
4. Believe that just say no, and abstinance education work.
5. Believe in trickle down economics, and that tax cuts for the rich and deregulation and free trade with slave labor states will improve their lives.
6. Believe that austerity in the face of collapsing demand from the private sector will fix things and that we should be on the gold standard.

“Emotional thinkers vote liberal and intelligent thinkers vote conservative….”

The neuroscience tells us that you’ve got this precisely backwards.

‘“Emotional thinkers vote liberal and intelligent thinkers vote conservative….”

The neuroscience tells us that you’ve got this precisely backwards.’

Republitards are liars.

Amazing! Your buddy has the ability to see through time and space and knows - actually knows - what this alternate reality is?

Yea dude thinking more tax receipts would equal more tax receipts is crazy!

And here is the other side of the argument on the Bush tax cuts you won’t hear from the left and libtards like Rio.

Let the Bush tax cuts expire? It will cost American families.

Letting the Bush/Obama tax cuts (including the payroll tax cut) fall off the cliff would increase taxes on an average American household by $3,000 in 2013 alone, likely wrecking a still-fragile economy.

Eighty-three percent would see their taxes rise, and among those making about $60,000 or more, just about everyone would face a tax hike. Those making between $50,000 and $75,000 would pay about $2,200 more, while those making more than $1 million would pay $175,000 more. The top 0.1 percent, whose income averages nearly $7 million, would pay a whopping $480,000 more.

That’s right. Obama helped pass a tax cut in 2010 that held the line on income tax brackets and fixed the AMT issue for middle class earners temporarily. Where is that in the Center for American Progress Study?

And why is it Democrats won’t touch fixing the AMT impact on middle income earners permanently? Because all of the government budget estimates use ill-gotten tax revenue from the AMT as part of their projections…

“increase taxes on an average American household by $3,000 “

“Those making between $50,000 and $75,000 would pay about $2,200 more”

So more than half of us would pay less than $2200 more.

In 2009, the 95th percentile of household income was 180K. 50th percentile was almost $50K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Just how important is trimming the deficit?

o more than half of us would pay less than $2200 more.

My parents are in the $50,000 and $75,000 income bracket and I can tell you they don’t have an extra $2200 to pay. Yeah, it makes a difference…

They make above the median income and can’t squeeze less than $200 out of their monthly budget? For something as important as trimming the deficit for their grandchildren?

I just wish the Congressional Republicans would quit pretending they want to cut the deficit.

Letting the Bush/Obama tax cuts (including the payroll tax cut) fall off the cliff would increase taxes on an average American household by $3,000 in 2013 alone, likely wrecking a still-fragile economy.

Simple solution: Let TheBushTaxCutsForTheRich expire only on those making more than 150K per year. (Was that hard to figure out?)

“My parents are in the $50,000 and $75,000 income bracket and I can tell you they don’t have an extra $2200 to pay. Yeah, it makes a difference…”

And how will they cope with vouchers instead of Medicare? I expect that will cost a lot more than $2200 per year.

“It’s not a taxing problem, it’s a spending problem.”

Do you really expect Republicans to balance the budget? They want to cut spending so they can give tax cuts to the upper crust. They want to tax the masses at the bottom who are not even scraping by now and withdraw social programs that ease a little of their pain. It is a blatant redistribution of money from the bottom to the top, but it is not a balanced budget plan.

Happy,

You have missed the point of my post.

I NEVER said the Rep can or willing to balance the budget. Congress spends more money than it receives no matter if it is a Rep or Dem majority! Every Congress has spent $1.2-1.5 since 1972.

Again it is spending problem of Congress…BOTh parties have had a monoply on those 435 seats since 1860.

A parachute into China territory ?? Iran will work also…GET IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Contribute or your gone….Take your civil liberties crap and stuff it…At least on this point…

“Either contribute, and contribute in a way that is acceptable or its loss of your citizenship & deportation time”

Deportation of natural born citizens? Really?

“Take your civil liberties crap and stuff it…”

We only get civil liberties if you consider us deserving? Wow!

What do you do with schizophrenics, the autistic, Downs syndrome, paraplegics ??

What do we do with them now ?? Seems to me that a paraplegic could man a entrance gate…In fact they would probably embrace it…Most paraplegics I have seen are more productive then most I have seen sucking off the government teat…

Northeasterner, you have indeed saved enough money to fund the two year service requirement. Between redirecting the life cycle development costs of these systems, and the cost of overseas bases - let’s say close 50% of them - we’d be at a breakeven. I ran the numbers.

We should also knock off $100B from the cybersecurity initiatives. Neither DoD nor Fed bureaucrats are able to develop predictive algorithms, and they don’t have enough hard capability to oversee their development. There are indeed many capable and skilled people among the Feds and the DoD, don’t get me wrong. But it takes a hunger for analysis to make a real cyber criminal. There is no selection mechanism in this country for such an attribute at the national level.

We are up against an adversary that works in nimble, intelligent cells, selected from the cream of the crop at an early age, and then carefully educated and challenged to develop that particular brand of analysis. Over there, the new rocket scientists are in cyber. In a nation with an eye for talent, a proven talent development model, and a billion members in the potential talent pool, there are no more than 5,000 developing algorithms and attack models for network penetration and data exfiltration. These people are GOOD. We have nothing to compare. Throwing money at the problem is the equivalent of burning it up.

Our optimized cost-effective play is damage containment.

There are unintended consequence of diverting defense technology funding to national service. We throw a majority of the middle aged defense contractors to the curb, for the sake of salvaging some portion of our youth. I say go for it.

“What do you do with schizophrenics, the autistic, Downs syndrome, paraplegics ??

What do we do with them now ??”

The initial idea was 2 years of service in the National Guard or Coast Guard. I simply pointed out that there should be alternatives for some people and gave a few examples. A paraplegic is incapable of completing Basic Training as currently designed. A schizophrenic with a gun is scary. The person with Downs Syndrome would probably benefit, but may require more supervision than the value of his labor. An autistic person may break down under the social and emotional pressures of Basic Training.

I did not say that national service was a bad idea, but the initial broad outlines were not well defined.

OK, that is going to cost a ton. I can’t even begin to put together a guess as to how much that is going to cost. For people who hate big government, you guys sure do like expanding it.

Germany manages to do it without breaking the bank…

For people who hate big government, you guys sure do like expanding it.

As Scdave said, close the overseas bases. Expand bases on CONUS. ETS many of the old guard who have been serving for 10-15+ years. Start rotating the 18-20 somethings in for 2 year rotations.

Get rid of the JSF program or scale it down in size… like the marines really need another VTOL? Nix an aircraft carrier or two and a few nuclear attack submarines from the military budget as well… we don’t need them. We can also stop R&D on “next gen” rifles and such… smart munitions are too damn expensive and we won’t see a real revolution in small arms until we have man-portable lasers. Also, missile defense tech needs to go. This isn’t Regan’s Star Wars and the old Soviet Union is gone.

Have I saved enough money yet?

OK, that is going to cost a ton ??

Oh fricken please Polly…Your smarter than that…Show me why ??

+1 Northeaserner…I am starting to like you…I think…Oh, maybe not…I am so confused..

This would end the rap hip hop thug lifestyle pretty quickly….and wouldn’t it be worth it as a country?

—
Require every high school graduate to serve a two year stint with either as their contribution to this blessed land…

Why? National service for 2 years for every 18 year old? You have to house and clothe them. You have to feed them. You have to supervise them. And you have to come up with something for them to do and move them where you want them to do it and train them how to do it. Even just shovels would cost something. I assume you want them to do more than just dig holes and fill them in again?

Are you going to pay them?

Okay Polly..I said you were smarter than that But ??

How are we going to feed & cloth them ??

Hell, they run around half clothed & eating Caesars Pizza now…How hard is that ??

sc, yeast,

National service, yes. Military service, no way.

“I’ll pick up a gun, but I won’t guarantee which way I’ll point it,” resulted in an epidemic of fragging during the Vietnam war.

Now think about just one pissed-off draftee with his finger on the drone video. (We had one poster here for a time who thought it amusing to tell us to give him the coordinates and he’d blow up a few “libtards” from where he sat at missile control in Afghanistan.) It works both ways, you know?

Do you really want dropout gangbangers, fantasy gamers, and anti-war rad-libs like me drafted into your army? I sure don’t.

You’re not dealing with the naive kids of the 1960’s anymore. (They’re kind of reluctant to kill off their Facebook Friends these days….) More to the point, you’re not dealing with the mindset of the 1960’s anymore– or their primitive technologies. You think Bradley Manning caused an international $hitstorm….

“I assume you want them to do more than just dig holes and fill them in again?”

What do you have against Keynesian stimulus?

Well, you go the knuckle draggin, and stupid part right:

http://www.republicanoffenders.com/

you and all your sources are legit, smart, correct and all-knowing

I’d say that is mostly correct most of the time.

Maybe you should change your name to SupermanInBrasil?

I was thinking “Viking” something but I see that’s already taken. (Don’t get mad, just prove me wrong.)

Aren’t you glad we live in a country where we’re free to have altered egos?

Now that’s funny!

t’s in the bible right? Right???

Pretty sure that isn’t the case… best reference I could come up with is that it dates from 1885 or shortly before and that it was coined by Anne Ritchie, a British author.

What does the bible have to do with this? Ahh, I get it… you think I’m a “Bible-thumping, gun-loving, right-wing nut”. Sorry, but if you want to label me, to be completely accurate, I’m a fiscally conservative libertarian gun nut. Religion has nothing to do with my politics, though I am Roman Catholic, educated by Jesuits.

You’re right it’s not. And I don’t have you labeled at all. Some things we concur.. some of your other perspectives I’m indifferent to. However I flat out reject ideologies and home spun conventional wisdom(which is actually stupidity). Some of your points appear ideological. It is ideological nattering that keep this mess in stasis.

“…though I am Roman Catholic, educated by Jesuits.”

Well as a rooted Laoist [sillyosophical Taoist] eye finds lots of interesting things in as sorts of gooey religious mud:

Those who are alive within you will recognize those who are alive around you.
–Henri Nouwen,

Some of your points appear ideological. It is ideological nattering that keep this mess in stasis.

Understood. For me, it is sometimes in the simplest of statements that truth can be found. Not so much about pure ideology.

Bottom line, I think everyone should eat. It is the how, what, and why of that I question.

Those who are alive within you will recognize those who are alive around you.

I need five or six shots of Patron to even begin to parse that statement…

Those who are alive within you will recognize those who are alive around you.
–Henri Nouwen

I have to say that the HBB is the last place I would expect to find a Henri Nouwen quote.

“I have to say that the HBB is the last place I would expect to find …”

“I’m the egg man, I’m F#%**g everywhere!”

Malcolm from “In the Loop”

What does it teach them? Not to overthrow the government and reject the real corporate masters.

Marie Antoinette didn’t get it either.

you think I’m a “Bible-thumping, gun-loving, right-wing nut”

I think you’re a parrot of right-wing talking points with a couple of semi-original ideas thrown in here and there for spice.

So you are in favor of sending the food stamp recipients to school/college/job training at government expense instead?

I am in favor of not promoting a “dependent class”. To me, the ideal solution would be government sponsored job training for those with the physical and mental capacity and desire to retrain. For those without the capacity or desire and without jobs currently, manual labor in exchange for “basic necessities” like rice and beans. For those with jobs, subsidized pricing for basic necessities, but they still pay something. Everyone works at a job or works towards training for a job.

How much does a month’s supply of rice and beans cost per person? If it’s good enough for the 1.3 Billion people in China and 1.2 Billion people in India, it is fine for the 45 Million “entitled” US Citizens.

Make sure to provide day care.
Child care? What a joke… who said they should have children if they can’t afford to care for them and feed them? In some ways, China’s one child law makes sense, too bad their culture favors males, to the detriment of female babies and an out of balance demographic.

Manual labor, i.e, very hard strenuous work that destroys your body by 48 years old in exchange for beans and rice?

You’re losing it.

Manual labor, i.e, very hard strenuous work that destroys your body by 48 years old in exchange for beans and rice?

We use inmate labor to clean up our roads and highways. Put the inmates back in jail, where they belong, and put those we’re already paying to work. How hard is it to carry a trash bag and bend over and pick up litter?

What are people, without a purpose in life?

Polly:

Yes force them to be in class 25 hours a week to learn English…and of course math and home ec…

Finally people are getting it…I am ahead of the curve that’s always been my problem

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/national_world/2012/04/09/job-training-funds-dry-up.html

So you are in favor of sending the food stamp recipients to school/college/job training at government expense instead? OK.

We use inmate labor to clean up our roads and highways. Put the inmates back in jail, where they belong, and put those we’re already paying to work. How hard is it to carry a trash bag and bend over and pick up litter?

What are people, without a purpose in life?

My laborers are already working and productive… and you think they’re going to stay that way by paying them a daily allotment of beans and rice? You can’t be serious.

Ok boys….at 3:31pm sharp, head up to my trailer for your daily ration of beans and rice.

You’re not remotely close to living in reality.

“manual labor in exchange for “basic necessities” like rice and beans”

Do they get cabins on the back acres to live in and Massa’s hand me down clothes to wear too?

Who says they should have children? Why is that relevant? The children are there. The last time my brother and sister-in-law knew ahead of time that their child care arrangements weren’t going to go kaput for a week, we asked him what he was going to do. He paused for a moment and said, “I figured I’d stay home Monday and Tuesday, [my sister-in-law] would take Wednesday and Thursday, and Friday we thought we would free-range ‘em.”

And you don’t want to do the teach them to fish part either. You do want to give them a fish, but in exchange for doing something different than they are doing now. Well, I only personally know one family on food stamps right now. I’ll tell you what they do now. He has a small business. She has a small buisness. She also has a job managing a small gym. They take care of her elderly father (it was her mother too, until she died in January). They raise a kid. They help keep an old house from falling down. They supervise her father’s finances, because he would lose to house to a property tax sale if they didn’t. They still are putting in time every week to deal with his identity theft issue.

If you took away the food stamps, do you know what they would do? They’d eat more fast food. Because if the food is free, you some how find the time to change it into a meal. But if the cost of real food and the cost of fast food is the same and you have about 100 hours of work/eldercare/childcare to do per person per week, you aren’t going to cook. It just ain’t going to happen.

What about the working poor who are on food stamps? You seem to think the people on food stamps are sitting around all day watching TV and playing video games? Will you make people give up their jobs to get rice and beans and whatever? How are they supposed to keep paying for the other stuff they buy with their earnings if you are only paying them rice and beans?

I can tell that you’re a left-winger when you talk about the “working poor”. Good, conservative, patriotic Americans believe that food stamp recipients don’t work. They don’t understand that people can work and still be poor.

Another thing that they don’t understand is that large portion of food stamp recipients are elderly, disabled, or children, who don’t have much oppurtunity to work.

Reading comprehension, people…

My statement was if those on public assistance who are not working and don’t want to train towards a job or are unable, then put them to work doing menial tasks in exchange for assistance. Everyone works, period.

For those working already (aka the working poor) or those who want to work, make job training, especially in the “trades” available if they want it and provide direct food aid, rice and beans for example, to supplement their food budget. Everyone eats, period.

What’s wrong with rice and beans? Ah, entitlement mentality shows up again. Americans are too good for that. We should all eat steak and seafood every day. How much money would the government save if instead of EBT cards, they provided one month’s supply of rice and beans per person? It would also make black market trading more difficult…

Again, life isn’t fair. Get over it. Don’t like rice and beans?Billions in this world subsist on it every day. Everyone should eat, but not everyone needs to go grocery shopping on the government dime.

I often think they would sell their own mothers and kick their grannies to curb.

Then I wake up and realize, that’s exactly what they want.

What about the working poor who are on food stamps?

Why are you bring up reality? You’re killing my buzz.

If Northesterners basic premise is that everyone should contribute what they can, if they can (time) and make an effort to improve their lot (learn a skill) then I agree with him…

If Northesterners basic premise is that everyone should contribute what they can, if they can (time) and make an effort to improve their lot (learn a skill) then I agree with him…

Exactly, Scdave. Everyone works. Everyone eats. Everyone has a chance to improve, elderly and disabled notwithstanding.

Reading comprehension, people…

My statement was if those on public assistance who are not working and don’t want to train towards a job or are unable,

How about some “life comprehension”. You tar a large group for the actions of a small percentage of free-loaders. Typical. You paint a portrait with a house-painting brush.

Again, what about the working poor? Who are the MAJORITY of food stamp recipients. Are they not ALREADY working to improve their condition.

Your mythical welfare queens only exist on Wall St.

“For those working already (aka the working poor) or those who want to work, make job training, especially in the “trades” available if they want it and provide direct food aid, rice and beans for example, to supplement their food budget. Everyone eats, period.”

Your program will cost 10 times (at least) what the current food stamp program does. What taxes are you willing to raise to pay for it?

…and when will they be able to take classes? Before or after their 12hr floating shifts that changes every week or before or after taking care of their families before or after work?

The working poor do NOT have a lot of free time.

What taxes are you willing to raise to pay for it?

Expire all the extended Unemployment Insurance and use whatever is saved there towards job training.

FWIW, the cost increase will be in the job training, not the food. I would imagine a sizable savings in switching from cash deposited on EBT cards to rice and beans in bulk. 50lb bag of rice retails for approx. $50 and contains 425 servings.

Of course that is where the increase will be. You will have to hire teachers. If they know something useful, they will already have jobs so you are going to have to pay them quite a bit. You are going to have to administer the program - figure out who is working already and who isn’t so you know who has to participate in the picking up trash program. You are going to have to make sure that those claims of already having a job are really legit, not just using their cousin to lie for them, so site visits will be necessary. The prisons get money for using prisoners to pick up trash so you have to increase their funding when you kick them out of those contracts. Despite your insistance that these poor people shouldn’t have kids, they do have them and if you want them to work and go to class you will have to provide some sort of child care. I could go on and on and on.

By the way, you can’t really just do it with rice and beans. Kids need calcium and a lot of food stamp recipients are kids, so milk at least needs to go on the list. Should be veggies too. Is fruit a treat? People with scurvy don’t work very well. Maybe you should add a multi vitamin to the list. You probably should make sure they all have the means to cook this food or are you going to hand it out already cooked? If you are going to cook it for them, then you have to hire people to do that. You seem to think the rice and beans are also going to the ones who already have jobs, as well as your trash pick up crew. Then you have to set up distribution. The SNAP cards are recharged electronically, but you can’t do that with physical rice and beans, especially if you are providing it cooked.

Gosh, it kind of sounds like yournew food stamp program is basically a pass to a soup kitchen but with the same food everyday. How do you know people aren’t going to hand their pass to a friend (for cash) if they get sick of the food after a while? Maybe you will need retina scanners for everyone to get access. Wow. That will make the retina scanner manufacturers happy.

And how the heck do you know that the savings from ending the extended unemployment will come close to covering the costs? My 10 times guess, was just that - a low end guess. It could be a lot more. You are providing job training to all the working poor in the country who are over 18 and qualify for food stamps. Heck, people might ask their bosses to lower their salaries to qualify to get into the classes.

Quite the boondoggle you have designed here, Northeasterner.

polly,

your wild assertions that there would be a 10x cost are just that, wild assertions. Now North’s assertion that it would cost less are also wild assertions. IMHO, this is why the whole problem should be pushed back to the state and county level. If corruption and waste does infiltrate the system, the scope will be limited and local. If you want federal intervention, the feds can create monitoring and training for administrators of local programs and leave the administration and funding to the state and local levels.

Quite the boondoggle you have designed here, Northeasterner.

Lol… nice straw-man argument. You put together some cockeyed plan with talking points that you can focus on and then call it my plan and blame it’s eventual failure on me?

No doubt you work in Washington DC, that’s right out the politician 101 handbook…

* People need to cook/learn to cook. Period.
* Milk and daily vitamins aren’t that big a deal. If cost of fresh milk is an issue, give the kids powdered milk.
* Lots of trades people with no work given the housing bubble pop… I’m pretty sure we won’t have to pay them top dollar to teach.
* We already have UI programs administered by states. Piggy back on those resources to track whose working and who isn’t.
* Child care… I admit I don’t have a politically or socially acceptable answer for this. Provide government-subsidized child care or make them wards of the state. Bottom line, the incentive where families have children to get more money from the state needs to end. Having children isn’t an excuse for not working… I’ll say it again, if you can’t afford to raise a child, you shouldn’t be having children.

if you can’t afford to raise a child, you shouldn’t be having children ??

OctiMom ?? Who is responsible for her recklessness along with her invetro doctor ??

“Child care? What a joke… who said they should have children if they can’t afford to care for them and feed them?”

The assumption here is that they were receiving foodstamps when they conceived them. Can you really predict that you will be able to provide for your children from the time of conception until they turn 18? A lot can happen in 19 years. Can you be certain that you will never be unemployed in that timespan? Can you predict that technology will not obsolesce your current skillset? Will your spouse die or divorce you before they are grown?

The truth is that a lot of the new recipients since 2008 are hard working people who got the short end of the stick. They would probably be happy for retraining programs. And some of them are going to need daycare.

“wards of the state”

Who cares for these wards of the state? ISTM daycare would be cheaper.

Again…

You imply that those already laboring aren’t working. You further imply that they’re only worth beans and rice.

Explain how that works for my laborers.

Explain how that works for my laborers.

Are you saying that your laborers are on SNAP?

What kind of wages do you pay?

What is snap?

Our laborers are paid prevailing rate.

Our laborers are productive and work hard because they are paid well. If we substitute pay with beans and rice, how long do you think these guys are going to stick around?

exe, you really missed his point here.

Here’s what Northeastener actually said:

For those without the capacity or desire and without jobs currently, manual labor in exchange for “basic necessities” like rice and beans.

His point was limited to those without jobs, e.g. on public support (unemployment, food stamps, etc).

The point was not to say what YOU should pay anyone. You can pay your laborers in whatever form you both agree on.

“Now unfortunately most on the right no only want to take away the food but any support. They want people destitute, or atleast they think they do. When the hords start stealing and killing the only people with money that they can get their hands on my guess is some might rethink their position.”

This is what the Long Hot Summer will look like, coming soon in Paul Ryan’s future America

This is what the Long Hot Summer will look like, coming soon in Paul Ryan’s future America

It’s a beautiful day: The sun is shining. It’s almost the weekend. I just picked up 2 30-round AK-47 magazines, 100 rounds of 7.62×39, 40 rounds .308 Match BTHP, and 50 rounds .40 cal FMJ. Life is good…

Okay Northeasterner…Thats a - 1…Starting to like you less…

lol. I know… damn gun nut.

The squad’s $9700 annual “salary” as a graduate research assistant qualified us for food stamps, as tuition reimbursement and student loans do not count as income. Really high living back in those Lucky Ducky days…

However, the graduate research assistant gig did not count as “qualifying weeks” of employment and so when laid off from Big Firm did not receive unemployment, and lived off of food stamps, savings, and 0% promo credit card offers before relocating out of state, at which time the food stamps ended!

Parasite!

Goon, that is some mighty striving, there. My hat’s off to you for having the courage to pick up and leave without a mattress to land on.

After I’d laid it all out in black and white with numbers and things, it’s amazing what a relief it was. The answer was so clear. It was a net savings in energy to simply look forward instead of living in a state of existential warfare with my surroundings.

Exactly.

Sell the man a fish. Seven days a week.

I meant to write “deterioration of condition that would occur without sufficient nutrition.”

Where are the skinny poor people on food stamps?

You mean the ones that don’t eat cheap, fattening (but not nutritious) food?

They’re only skinny because they traded all their food stamps for crack. It’s true, the Drudge Report has a link to a Breitbart article about it!

Hi-Z, until you know the first thing about nutrition, keep your trap shut.

The cheapest food is the most fattening: subsidized wheat, subsidized corn, subsidized sugar, subsized corn and soy oils. Every poor person is probably suffering from malnutrition and obesity at the same time.

NE–

It’s rather hard to store 50# of beans and rice if you live in a motel room with your kids– or in your car. And it’s even harder to cook the stuff into edibility if you’ve no stove or utensils.

You make an awful lot of assumptions, and not a lot of original talking points. Try thinking things through on a practical level before you post platitudes?

Not a trick question, just looking for a deeper understanding of the problem. If basic nutrition for those of lesser means were the issue, why not provide a 25lb or 50lb bag of rice and some beans and be done with it? This seems to work for billions of people in the world…

The question pertaining to the human condition is based on the perceived value of deriving one’s very existence from some other entity, which in essence is a form of control. Entitlement and control are what the current system is about.

How can a child learn to run if he can’t walk or crawl? How can he walk or crawl if he is always carried by his parents?

I would like to see food stamps only cover lean proteins, produce, and a few other items, leaving out processed food. It would go along way in reducing the “diabesity” (Mark Hyman MD) epidemic. Cookies, chips, candy, ice cream, and soda should not be covered.Block those purchases on Food Stamps and on EBT purchases.
We’re on a tight budget, and we eat healthy. Cheaper than medical bills by far.

I would like to see food stamps only cover lean proteins, produce, and a few other items, leaving out processed food.

+1, Awaiting. Of course the last time I said essentially the same thing here, I got demonized for it…

Entitlement and control are what the current system is about.

Handing out bags of rice and beans wouldn’t change that. People would still be getting their food from the government. They would still be dependent on the government.

Handing out bags of rice and beans wouldn’t change that. People would still be getting their food from the government. They would still be dependent on the government.

Yes. Because we as a society have decided it is in the public’s best interest to not let people starve. However, the current system of EBT cards is designed for comfort and privacy. What do I mean by that? The EBT card looks just like a debit/credit card and works just like one. Recipients can go to most grocery/convenience/coops, purchase what they want, and swipe the card… just like anyone else using credit or debit cards.

There is no shame in receiving assistance because it is hidden from view. Shame is a motivator, something earlier generations knew to be true. Comfort and ease-of-use are not motivators of change. We want the perception of entitlement to be one of easy acceptance. How do we motivate people to improve themselves if we make it easy, convenient, comfortable, and acceptable to receive aid and continue as is? This is my point.

It seems old-school and probably insensitive on my part, but I think people need to be uncomfortable in their current lot in life to work up the motivation, energy and drive to improve themselves in any meaningful way, absent some other motivational force, like (monetary) reward.

“However, the current system of EBT cards is designed for comfort and privacy.”

Actually, I think it is designed for the cost and convenience of the government. Pushing a few electrons is much cheaper than printing, shipping, and distributing paper.

And I think the banks like it, too. IIRC, they get a cut of the money.

Actually EBT is designed to contract out the food distribution to private industry. Otherwise you’d have to set up government stores — and we can’t be having any of that government expansion.

The question pertaining to the human condition is based on the perceived value of deriving one’s very existence from some other entity, which in essence is a form of control.

Starving people don’t give a squat about that concept.

It doesn’t matter how good a fisherman you are when there are no fish to catch. All the fish moved to China and India decades ago.

Actually, the purpose of food stamps is to subsidize the industrial ag sector. As is the school lunch program.

we are getting by on 150.00 for two.

Really? What do you eat? Wow.

“Really? What do you eat? Wow.”

Yeah, I thought we were doing well at 300. Do tell, azdude!”

Robbie Roberston is looking mighty pale these days….. Friends and family used to say I look like him. I hope don’t anymore.

When my father passed away about seven years ago I was talking to some distant relatives at his wake that I had not seen since I was a kid. They said “Oh my god, you look exactly like your father”. I pointed over to the open casket and said…. You mean like him, right.

I guess I shouldn`t have because they were trying to give me a compliment, but I couldn`t resist. And I`m sure if the Old Man was watching he got a chuckle out of it.

heh….. that’s pretty good Jethro. I bet that shutdown the conversation in a big way.

Hey j,

Your link isn’t working. How to get the latest extension? Thx!

I think you can still get it here:

http://mysite.verizon.net/drumminj_tx/joshuatree.html

Ah, thanks Carl!

You’re welcome, but I’m not finding the new version(s) there. It should be at 2.x now. Hopefully drumminj will chime in.

I looked but couldn’t find the current version either.

Google only found the old download site.

Drummin?

I remember when it was like that. Now its 2% if you hop, el zilcho if you stay put.

I remember when it was like that. Now its 2% if you hop, el zilcho if you stay put.

You need to relocate to Boston… seriously. Let me know and I can put you in touch with a few good recruiters/head hunters in the area.

Of course, the cost of living might be a shock… mostly the cost of housing, energy, food, and insurance

That sounds a little crazy to me. If a person has a job that likes, or at least tolerates, and feels the company treats him pretty well, and also gets along with the people he works with, would he really jump ship for a lousy 2%? What if you find out that your new manager is an a$$hole, or the work is much less interesting than you thought it would be?

“Of course, the cost of living might be a shock… mostly the cost of housing, energy, food, and insurance”

There’s always a catch.