May 4, 2012

The Denial Stage Of A Real Estate Boom

It’s Friday desk clearing time for this blogger. “In recent years, residential real estate sales have glowed even brighter for buyers from overseas. Some see it as fulfilling their dream to take a bite of the Big Apple; others buy here to add to their property portfolio; while still others purchase apartments for their (lucky) college-age children. Whatever the buying motive may be, the trend has turned Manhattan into a recession-proof real estate island. Foreign buyers today hail from pretty much every country you can think of, but Irish and Middle Eastern buyers are still making a big dent, with Asian and Latin American purchasers gaining quick ground.”

“According to Wei Min Tan, founder of Castle Avenue Group within Manhattan-based Rutenberg Realty, upwards of 50 percent of his clients are foreign. ‘Luxury condos here are about $1,500 per square-foot,’ Tan points out. ‘In Hong Kong, it would be $2,000. In London, it would be $3,500. You have to compare similar kinds of cities. In the U.S., Manhattan is the most expensive, but globally it’s cheap.’”

“Canuck investors trolling for foreclosure buys in the U.S. are increasingly moving their search from the MLS to the auction block, an effort to get a jump on a dwindling number of properties in many U.S. markets. Those auctions often take place once a month and see investors square off against each other but also a slew of prospective homebuyers looking to snatch up a deal. The investors, Canadian or otherwise, are no exception. ‘More and more Canadians, and other investors looking for property in Arizona, Florida and Nevada, are going to the real estate auctions in order to find properties,’ Lance Livingston, with Smart Arizona Foreclosures, told CREW at last weekend’s Investor Forum Toronto.”

“During a discussion with the Globe and Mail’s editorial board, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty acknowledged that Ottawa doesn’t have a good grasp on the amount of foreign money in the Canadian housing market. ‘It’s mainly anecdotal, so I don’t have a statistical grasp of it, no,’ he said, adding that he hears about lots of people in emerging economies paying cash for condos in Toronto and Vancouver.”

“Real estate agents have tales about foreign investors scooping up literally dozens of condo units at one time. Bank of Montreal chief economist Sherry Cooper said in a note Friday that, while Toronto’s condo boom still pales in comparison to what’s happened in Spain or the U.S., lessons must be learned from those experiences. And one of those lessons? The role of foreign investment. ‘For nearly a decade starting in 1999, house prices exploded in Spain as both domestic buyers, and more notably, foreign buyers poured money into residential real estate,’ Ms. Cooper wrote. ‘Europeans, Russians and others were using the Costa del Sol as their vacation hideaway and condo building in all parts of Spain exploded.’”

“The Spanish real estate bust is the biggest test to date for European authorities with Spain’s economy almost twice that of Greece, Portugal and Ireland combined. Spain and Ireland are ‘very similar,’ said Angel Mas, president of European mortgage insurance at Genworth Financial Inc., in an interview in Madrid. ‘They had never experienced this cheap credit, same as here. And they experienced a construction boom that at the beginning was out of necessity, but they couldn’t stop it.’”

“In Ireland, they’re moving toward acceptance. The first auction of one of 2,000 unfinished housing estates takes place tomorrow in central Dublin, with sales expected to fetch cents on the euro, showing the Irish may be closer to the end than the beginning.”

“In the stages of death of a real estate boom, Spain is still in denial. Developers continue to build even with 2 million homes vacant around the country, new airports that never saw a single flight being mothballed, and property appraisers and banks reporting values have fallen only about 22%, said Jesus Encinar, co- founder of Spain’s largest property website, who estimates the real decline is probably at least twice that.”

“Miguel Angel Garcia Nieto, mayor of Avila for the past decade, disagrees that his city has been overbuilt. ‘When we approved the first urban plan back in 1998 there was an unprecedented demand for homes,’ Nieto said. ‘Yes, there is oversupply at the moment because of the financial crisis and everyone’s gone back home to live with their parents, but it’s not because there is lack of demand. When the economy gets back on track I am confident the supply will be absorbed.’”

“The Australian Taxation Office (ATO) has released its Taxation Statistics for the 2009-10 financial year, which once again revealed that Australia is a nation of loss-making landlords. Of the 1,751,679 property investors recorded by the ATO in 2009-10, 63% or 1,110,922 were ‘negatively geared,’ meaning that holding costs (eg, interest payments, maintenance, and other costs) outweighed income from rents.”

“Of these negatively geared investors, nearly three-quarters earned less than $80,000 in 2009-10, and the average loss was $9132 per negatively geared investor, or $176 per week. Not only are investment property holdings In Australia concentrated in lower-to-middle income groups, but also older age cohorts.”

“Negative gearing is only attractive as a tax minimisation strategy when there is labour income to offset rental losses against. However, once an investor enters retirement and ceases working, they lose the ability to offset losses for taxation purposes.”

“People across the United States have seen their tax bills increase due to the housing bust. On federal tax returns, claims for the mortgage interest deduction dropped by 14 percent, from 2007 to 2009, IRS data show. For 2010, preliminary data indicate that use of the write-off fell an additional 7.2 percent. ‘I was shocked about how much I owed,’ says Stephen Buckman, who had to pay the Internal Revenue Service $1,500 when he filed his 2011 taxes. In December 2010, a bank foreclosed on his Phoenix townhouse, which had plunged in value to $50,000 from the $196,000 he paid in 2006.”

“With signs of a housing recovery just beginning to materialize, one thing has economists and real estate professionals looking over their shoulders: a massive backlog of foreclosed properties. The vast majority of repossessed Portland-area homes aren’t up for sale. Instead, more than 80 percent of them are off the market, many vacant and developing maintenance problems that might ultimately take a toll on their resale value if and when they do sell.”

“This at a time when the Portland market is in an inventory crisis. Sellers don’t want to put their home on the market at what could prove to be the low point for prices. Brokers say their supply is drying up. ‘My goodness, we would sell the daylights out of these properties right now,’ said Don McCredie, a principal broker with Realty Trust Group in Lake Oswego.”

“The fact that all those foreclosed properties are still there unsold looms over the market. Builders and sellers are ‘trying to figure out if, at some point in the future, a batch of foreclosed condos and foreclosed homes are going to be put back on the market,’ said Gerard Mildner, director of the Center for Real Estate at Portland State University. ‘That puts either prices down or rents down, or both.’”

“Kathy Lane envisioned a picturesque neighborhood with tree-lined streets when she moved to FishHawk Ranch in 2004. These days, she stares at an eyesore. Two doors away, the back yard of an abandoned home overflows with trash; rain pours in open windows; weeds have overgrown the lawn. The pool, filled with black muck, draws swarms of bugs. The house on Lane’s street in Lithia went into foreclosure in 2008 and has been vacant for more than a year. Aurora Loan Services had set an auction for February but canceled it. It’s an oft-repeated pattern.”

“Lane is baffled by the banks’ inaction. ‘Every day you expect a poltergeist,’ she said. ‘We have to live here.’”

“Leonard J. Mankin, a Clearwater-based law firm, represents hundreds of associations across Florida. Attorney Brandon Mullis has asked a judge to sanction U.S. Bank and to force the sale of a home in Valencia Gardens. It is now common, he said, for banks to cancel auctions seven or eight times in many foreclosure cases. Anthony DiMarco, Florida Bankers Association executive VP, said lenders are overwhelmed with thousands of foreclosures and aren’t cancelling sales to skirt maintenance and assessments. ‘They are trying to move cases forward,’ he said. ‘We’d rather keep people in homes.’”

“While foreclosures have declined in recent months, activity in greater Redding remains stubbornly high. Filings in Redding dropped 16 percent in the first quarter compared with the previous quarter and were down 11 percent from a year ago. Like many other Realtors, Wayne Martin of Windermere NorCal Properties in Redding, believes banks continue to monitor the flows of their foreclosure portfolios, being careful not to release too many repossessed homes to the market.”

“‘I think possibly that the federal government and banks have some type of agreement to hold back to create a seller’s market,’ Martin said.”

“A central Virginia real estate company released its own housing report for the first quarter that covers Charlottesville and the central Virginia region. In Charlottesville, the Nest Realty report shows home sales in the first quarter up more than 50 percent from the same time last year. Other realtors note that cash buyers indicate an improving market. Denise Ramey of Roy Wheeler Realty Company said, ‘We saw a 30 percent increase in cash buyers. That’s typically a leading edge indicator that investors are thinking prices are going to start increasing.’”

“The Nest Realty report shows the average price tag on a home is down across central Virginia as well. Jim Duncan of Nest Realty said, ‘Median sale prices are down about 4 percent, which really isn’t that much when we’ve been talking over the last several years in double digit decreases in median price.’”




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69 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2012-05-04 05:00:10

I want to thank everyone who contributed during the fund raising week. Your support is greatly appreciated.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 07:15:31

Thank you for staying the course with the blog!

Comment by Carl Morris
2012-05-04 08:04:29

Yeah, I’ll be a little sad when I graduate from this school, but I’ll always consider myself an HBB alumni.

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-04 10:58:51

Thanks, Ben! You’ve created a wonderful resource.

 
 
Comment by combotechie
2012-05-04 05:25:37

“Brokers say their supply is drying up. ‘My goodness, we would sell the daylights out of these properties right now.’”

Not if they were for sale you wouldn’t. If they were put up for sale then the supply would no longer be drying up, and it’s the drying up of supply that is driving the price increases.

During the mania people wanted in, now - after the bust - people want out.

Comment by WT Economist
2012-05-04 05:28:32

That article is nasueating. It appears that the banks and the government are willing to wreck metro Portland to preserve the fantasies of the sellers and the balance sheets of the banks. Young people want to live in Portland? Go screw yourselves!

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 06:33:13

I was there a couple of days back. We almost tripped over a group of twenty-or-so twenty-somethings spread out over the downtown sidewalk. I took the impression that they were occupying the sidewalk more out of a need for shelter than as an avenue of protest.

All told, it was a sad scene. But this is a natural consequence of the combination of no jobs and high housing prices.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 06:35:49

P.S. Didn’t drive around town much, but at least in some fairly livable neighborhoods near between the airport and downtown, FOR SALE signs were abundantly visible. And their spring starts later than SoCal’s.

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Comment by rms
2012-05-04 21:03:18

All told, it was a sad scene. But this is a natural consequence of the combination of no jobs and high housing prices.

I’ve passed-up two career opportunities in Portland, OR because of the housing situation and the social conditions my family would be exposed to.

The banking crisis is far from over, and the retirement wave is now underway exerting its crush on the GDP. “Muddle Along” will be the new normal for longer than many would care to think about.

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Comment by mmmarvel
2012-05-05 02:08:15

Actually Portland is (and has been) wrecking itself for quite some time. It’s just that the banks aren’t helping the situation. However, local government (city and what is called Metro) has been ruining what was once a nice place to live. So yes, the banks have a hand in it, but Portland is no longer (and hasn’t been for about 15 years) the nice place to live that it once was.

Comment by Muggy
2012-05-05 05:14:11

“So yes, the banks have a hand in it, but Portland is no longer (and hasn’t been for about 15 years) the nice place to live that it once was.”

Couldn’t we substitute any mid-size metro in this description?

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Comment by snake charmer
2012-05-04 06:23:59

“During a discussion with the Globe and Mail’s editorial board, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty acknowledged that Ottawa doesn’t have a good grasp on the amount of foreign money in the Canadian housing market.”
____________________________/

Help me out here. Isn’t that his job?

Comment by Al
2012-05-04 12:25:55

The lack of good data on Cdn housing is frustrating. Maybe that’s the only reason the Cdn bubble has continued so long?

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 06:29:02

“The Denial Stage Of A Real Estate Boom”

We’re gettin’ no place fast.

– Moe Stooge

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 06:38:50

“Sellers don’t want to put their home on the market at what could prove to be the low point for prices.”

It could be decades before bubble-era prices return.

Comment by Bad Andy
2012-05-04 10:54:57

it WILL be decades.

 
Comment by josap
2012-05-04 22:13:15

Is should be decades, many hopefully, before there is another housing bubble.

Maybe we learn something this time.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 06:41:28

“The Spanish real estate bust is the biggest test to date for European authorities with Spain’s economy almost twice that of Greece, Portugal and Ireland combined. Spain and Ireland are ‘very similar,’ said Angel Mas, president of European mortgage insurance at Genworth Financial Inc., in an interview in Madrid. ‘They had never experienced this cheap credit, same as here. And they experienced a construction boom that at the beginning was out of necessity, but they couldn’t stop it.’”

There was mutually-reinforcing international economic contagion during the housing bubble price blowout, and now the same contagion is infecting the price collapse. This is what top-down governance by a cartel of central banks leads to.

Comment by Mugsy
2012-05-05 12:00:23

When we were in Dublin last October every other Georgian townhome near St. Stephen’s Green was for sale. Maybe the fact that they still want over a million Euros each will still hold the recovery back for a bit longer?

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2012-05-04 06:43:06

‘Median sale prices are down about 4 percent, which really isn’t that much’

I realize the median is a flawed statistic, but let’s assume it’s correct. This would mean all the 3% down FHA buyers are already underwater.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 07:14:10

Right. And of course “3% down” less 4 percent down in prices does not factor in 6 percent to the Used Home Seller.

Comment by Ben Jones
2012-05-04 07:24:04

The seller usually pays that.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 07:34:00

Technically, yes. But wouldn’t a seller adjust their reservation price (what they are willing to accept to sell the house) upward to capture as much of the 6 percent as possible from the buyer? Looking at this another way, imagine what the seller might accept as the sale price if he didn’t have to pay 6 percent to the UHS.

Who pays the UHS fee ultimately depends on the outcome of a tug-of-war between buyers and sellers.

BTW, a similar argument applies to whether you pay 7.65% or 15.3% payroll tax. If your employer would have otherwise paid some of the 7.65% back to you as wages or salary, the effective payroll tax is higher than 7.65%.

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Comment by Realtors Are Thieving Pukes®
2012-05-04 07:38:17

That 6% mafioso style skim comes from somewhere. It doesn’t matter where but someone is gonna pay it and in the end it comes out of the buyers hide.

 
Comment by polly
2012-05-04 08:03:13

The fee comes from somewhere, but it doesn’t put you “underwater” with your loan. It just puts you underwater if you need to sell, as once you need to sell you are the seller that has to pay the fee.

I have never heard it said that in a stable market, all home buyers who put down 20% only have 14% equity the minute they close. It may be that this is the economic reality of the situation, but it just isn’t how the stats are reported.

 
Comment by Realtors Are Thieving Pukes®
2012-05-04 08:09:14

Sorry but the 6% mafioso fee inflates the transaction no matter who pays.

I buy a $1000 notebook at costco in Delaware and it cost me $1000. If I buy it at a costco in NY I pay $1000 +9% sales tax. Costco doesn’t reduce their price in NY stores to offset the tax. I, the buyer pay the inflated price.

(and don’t bother with your tax tirade 2Banana)

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2012-05-04 08:09:49

It’s a part of how much you would need to bring to the table to get out of the loan. Of course, if you walk away, you don’t have to pay it. Plus you can take the fridge, stove and dishwasher, so I guess that reduces how far underwater you are!

 
Comment by 2banana
2012-05-04 09:12:04

So where did you buy the $1000 notebook?

Nuff said.

———————————–

I buy a $1000 notebook at costco in Delaware and it cost me $1000. If I buy it at a costco in NY I pay $1000 +9% sales tax. Costco doesn’t reduce their price in NY stores to offset the tax. I, the buyer pay the inflated price.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 10:20:29

“It just puts you underwater if you need to sell,…”

Legal distinctions aside, underwater is underwater.

 
Comment by polly
2012-05-04 11:35:33

If you buy it in Delaware and bring it into New York, you own New York a 9% use tax.

 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2012-05-04 07:29:30

When you factor in “all cost” of sale for a seller, a reasonable estimate is 8%…In other words, assuming you paid fair market value, you are already upside down 8% the day you are handed the keys…

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 07:35:21

I’d much rather be 8% upside down on a new car than on a used house.

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Comment by Ben Jones
2012-05-04 07:47:54

If you think about it, the commission would have to be subtracted from what an ‘owner’ could get, so it does add to the underwater-ness in a way.

 
Comment by scdave
2012-05-04 07:59:37

And 8% upside down on a house in lets say Tucson is a much different number than 8% upside down on a house here in Silicon Valley…You probably go backwards $50,000. on a average purchase here if you must re-sell anytime soon…Who knows how long it will take to get to break-even…I have stooped trying to rationalize it around here….Its irrational…

 
Comment by Realtors Are Thieving Pukes®
2012-05-04 08:26:01

“Who knows how long it will take to get to break-even”

Not gonna happen. Prices are grossly inflated and falling.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2012-05-04 08:23:25

In NY, with the real estate transaction costs, it’s a lot more than that. Plus you need a lawyer to close in NY, an expense but one that probably avoided some abuses (because the lawyer reads the mortgage documents or is supposed to).

The transaction costs of real estate are large. Then you need to do some fix ups.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 13:08:33

“The transaction costs of real estate are large.”

Right. One way to show I wasn’t being flippant when I said ‘underwater is underwater’ is to contemplate buying a home today and selling it again tomorrow. I’m guessing your purchase price less the sales price net of fees would roughly equal a 6 percent real estate sales commission plus other transaction costs. That would reflect the 6+ percent underwater position you are in the moment you finish a home purchase transaction.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-04 11:02:49

One percent drops have been known to kill highly leverage hedge funds. So why should FHA buyers be any different?

Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-04 11:06:56

Oops. I meant to say “highly leveraged hedge funds.”

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 13:05:12

I question the entire premise of this article, in which a sentence warning about the underwater trap is immediately followed by a sentence reaffirming that now is a great time to buy.

If you want to avoid the underwater trap, just don’t buy a house, period.

The Low Down Payment Mortgage Trap
by Donna S. Robinson - 04 May 2012

Low Down Payment Mortgage Loans such as FHA, USDA, VA or any type of loan where you can make a down payment of 5% or less is basically a trap. It’s a trap that leaves the borrower “under-water”, even in a good market.

The primary difference is that in a good market, when prices are appreciating at a steady rate of 5% per year, you don’t notice the trap because it takes less time and effort to escape from it.

But today, with housing prices flat and still eroding in many markets, the trap is much more noticeable, and more difficult to escape from unless you make a superior effort to do so.

Home prices are so low in most markets that it is indeed a great time to buy a home. The key lies in how you choose to finance your purchase. It’s the loan costs that leave the home owner owing more than the property is worth. And low-down-payment-loans are the most expensive of the so called “affordable home loans”. So expensive in fact that if you purchase your home with 5% down and a 30 year term at the historically low rate of 6%, you’ll pay about $250,000 for a $100,000 home by the time you’ve paid off your mortgage. And that’s just principal and interest, plus loan fees. We haven’t even included taxes and insurance in that total.

When you look at this fact, you realize that all borrowers who use these types of loans are instantly “under-water” from day one. You’ve just agreed to pay $250,000 for a $100,000 house. Even if it triples in value over the next 30 years, you’re not making a profit!

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 13:25:09

“It’s the loan costs that leave the home owner owing more than the property is worth.”

Only a complete moron would overlook the fact that whatever of your own money goes to paying a down payment is money taken away from another purpose.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2012-05-04 20:40:27

Totally missing the real vs nominal dollars issue…

 
 
 
Comment by polly
2012-05-04 08:06:14

“‘Yes, there is oversupply at the moment because of the financial crisis and everyone’s gone back home to live with their parents, but it’s not because there is lack of demand. When the economy gets back on track I am confident the supply will be absorbed.’”

Wow. It has been a while since I felt the need to say this.

Demand =/= desire

Demand = desire + the ability to purchase, either with cash or loans or some combination of both

And his “when” (the economy gets back on track) is a big “if” so far.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 10:22:17

“Demand =/= desire”

Not according to microeconomic theory.

Demand = desire, up to but not exceeding the budget limit.

Comment by polly
2012-05-04 11:37:08

So you didn’t even bother to read my entire 4 sentence post?

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 15:56:28

Sorry — I managed to misread it, but now see we are singing from the same sheet of music.

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Comment by oc-ed
2012-05-04 09:11:09

I wonder how many potential buyers, like myself, have watched this protracted debacle, seen how, by some dark magic, asking prices have been made so sticky, and changed their target in terms of what they are looking for in a property. When I started “looking” in 2001 I wanted to buy a “home” to raise my then 3 year old son. I was clueless. I sought out an RE agent and really believed they had my best interests in mind. They quickly connected me with a loan person who told me I could “afford” to borrow $X. The agent then showed me a handful of properties valued at $X + $100k. She explained the increase by voodoo financing.

There were a number of disconnects in this process that made me stop and review what the heck was going on. I felt that the $X amount was far higher than I was willing to borrow. I was simply not going to use voodoo financing. And even back then I felt that the wishing prices were inflated. This began my education and eventually I found the HBB. A community where I was not insane or stupid for renting and being fiscally prudent. Ben, thank you and the entire HBB gang, saved my arse and my mind.

So, now, after watching this thing play out as predicted by the HBB en toto, I no longer want to buy a still overpriced property. Instead I am considering buying something I can afford to actually payoff in less than 5-10 years in an area I go to for recreation often with the hope that I can create a place to move to once my son goes off to college. A place I can leave to him free and clear. And a place we can enjoy as we make it our own while not burdened with enormous debt slavery.

I wonder how many folks out there in the world have actually changed how they think of housing and personal debt as a result of being exposed to the Housing Bubble and it’s failure as well as the bizarre price manipulations?

I think the number is not that high. I think most folks just did not get it. And much of that is because of the forces allied to artificially maintain property prices. First we have the “Save the borrowers” who reward foolish choices. next we have the “Save the bankers and hedgies” who cry end of the world if they are not bailed out for their foolish and greedy choices. The regulators and politicians are playing a nice game of keeping their contributors and voters happy by holding hearings and making loophole filled laws. And the REIC is a consistent soundtrack cheering on the “value” of going in debt to exorbitant levels for the “pride of ownership”, tweeking statistics, and passing out the kool-aid.

Tough to be a normal Joe or Jane and see behind the curtain with so much noise and fanfare distracting you.

Comment by sfrenter
2012-05-04 09:59:45

I wonder how many potential buyers, like myself, have watched this protracted debacle, seen how, by some dark magic, asking prices have been made so sticky, and changed their target in terms of what they are looking for in a property.

You just described us.

It’s easy to get giddy when you are told you can get $$$___ priced house for $$$___ a month. Mortgage brokers and realtors will always try and get you to spend more.

Having been outbid again on a larger house, just last night we stepped back and took another good long look at our finances, retirement plans, and overall life priorities.

We could easily and happily live in an 850-1000 sq. ft. house. And we could pay it off in 15 years. Buying something at the upper limits of what we can afford means debt slavery until the day we die.

Thanks HBB, for helping me figure this out and not succumb to group think. I did have to go through the motions myself, though, and today am feeling great relief that none of our offers on overpriced homes got accepted.

I still want my view of Twin Peaks, though. Nothing makes me happier than sitting and watching the fog roll in. The view will be just as good from a smaller house.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2012-05-04 11:18:51

The roles of federal institutions in fostering, abetting, and attempting to revive the housing bubble, and the grotesque behaviors associated with the bubble, have changed how I view the federal government. Responsibility doesn’t matter, the rule of law doesn’t matter, and ethics don’t matter.

Everything has been traded for a recovery that will not be coming, in no small part because our leaders have mis-identified who is important, and condone an economic philosophy where greed has a higher value than honesty, community and trust.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-04 11:20:25

And then they wonder why people go out in the streets and yell “Occupy!”

Comment by Carl Morris
2012-05-04 12:29:46

changed how I view the federal government

Me, too.

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Comment by Realtors Are Thieving Pukes®
2012-05-04 17:46:13

changed how I view the federal government

Likewise… in a very big way.

 
Comment by CA renter
2012-05-05 04:13:28

Ditto.

 
 
 
Comment by Posers
2012-05-04 12:55:35

Ethics, schmethics. I know. I’m a fool.

What I am trying to do these days - to no avail - is to find groups of people who are interested in moving to/forming a town that is based on ancient ideas of honesty, community and trust.

I look online a few times a week at realtor.com

There are a great many towns in flyover country that now are dirt cheap re: housing. I’ve looked at places like Kokomo, South Bend, Peoria, Sioux Falls, Muskegon, Tulsa, Mountain Home (Arkansas), Cedar City, Pittsburgh.

The decline of housing prices in these places is stunning. You do not need to live in Detroit or Cleveland to find homes for $20-$40K houses for sale. They’re all over place, now that flyover has been decimated courtesy of actions of coastal elitists.

The problem, naturally, is that such places are likely in permanent decline and far away from any jobs.

As our economy grows progressivly worse due to ineffective policies and unethical practices, does it even matter that good jobs are located nearby? Jobs come and go…and all the preparation in the world guarantees nothing employment-wise.

Both GovCorp and our societal insistence that ethics don’t matter means that what is happening now will not be changing anytime soon. It’s going to get worse, and intimately affect a lot more people (including quite a few more people on HBB). It took me 4-5 years, but I finally got it through my rather thick skull.

I think I’d rather have good, honest, dependable neighbors nearby. Neighbors that I can trade services with, barter with. Neighbors that I know have my back as much as I have theirs. Neighbors that band together in emergencies and lift each other up in bad times. Neighbors who live cheap, work hard, live simply and have money saved.

What I’d like to see is 30K or so like-minded individuals get together, decide upon a single place where everyone would move to, and proceed to do so.

It may not be a bad idea to live 50 or so miles from an Amish community. Maybe that’s a strategy that could be pursued. Unlike most adults, the Amish actually know how to produce something of lasting value.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-04 14:51:43

I think I’d rather have good, honest, dependable neighbors nearby. Neighbors that I can trade services with, barter with. Neighbors that I know have my back as much as I have theirs. Neighbors that band together in emergencies and lift each other up in bad times. Neighbors who live cheap, work hard, live simply and have money saved.

Some of my neighbors are like that. Wish all of them were.

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Comment by Al
2012-05-04 12:47:25

There is so much exposure to “housing is good because…” propaganda it’s small wonder the majority still covet a house at all costs. And the negativity of debt has been minimized. Now it’s called leverage, which sounds so much better, although few understand the risks of leveraging an investment. As we’ve learned throught the collapse of the bubble, few are capable of surviving leverage in a downturn. We’re encouraged to ignore the growing debt because equity is (was anyway) growing too. It will take a long time for the general public to unlearn this crap, if ever.

Comment by Posers
2012-05-04 13:04:10

Nothing encourages them not to adopt the mindset.

Bailouts and handouts ensure they don’t.

Money is no longer something you earn. It is something you take.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-04 14:54:00

Now it’s called leverage, which sounds so much better, although few understand the risks of leveraging an investment.

Which means that we need to start educating people. Really. It’s one thing to sit here and click keyboards at each other. It’s another thing to actually do something to change the mindsets of others who are not HBB-ers.

 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2012-05-04 20:13:33

After watching this entire meltdown unfold, I am debt averse period. I don’t think there is any “good” debt. I look at borrowing as bad.

Comment by CA renter
2012-05-05 04:16:16

Amen, Grizzly.

My perspective has changed dramatically regarding debt. Not that I ever thought it was a good thing, but even thinking about taking on a 15-year mortgage makes me very, very nervous. We should all be able to buy houses for cash. :)

 
 
 
Comment by 2banana
2012-05-04 09:19:56

And people across American can not do basic math.

If you did NOT PAY YOUR MORTGAGE AT ALL you are going to have nada for the MID.

You are still WAY ahead of the game as you might get back 30% of the INTEREST you paid for your mortgage in the MID (a big maybe if you can itemize other deductions too).

Basic Math:

$2000 monthly mortgage not paid x 12 months = $24,000 saved

$1500 monthly mortgage interest x 12 months x 30% tax rate = $5,400 maybe saved on your taxes

——————————————–

“People across the United States have seen their tax bills increase due to the housing bust. On federal tax returns, claims for the mortgage interest deduction dropped by 14 percent, from 2007 to 2009, IRS data show. For 2010, preliminary data indicate that use of the write-off fell an additional 7.2 percent. ‘I was shocked about how much I owed,’ says Stephen Buckman, who had to pay the Internal Revenue Service $1,500 when he filed his 2011 taxes. In December 2010, a bank foreclosed on his Phoenix townhouse, which had plunged in value to $50,000 from the $196,000 he paid in 2006.”

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 13:11:01

“If you did NOT PAY YOUR MORTGAGE AT ALL you are going to have nada for the MID.”

The picture is really far worse than that. The value of the MID is limited to the amount it pushes up your itemized (Sch A) deductions above the standard deduction, which will tend to be zero unless you are reasonably wealthy.

Comment by nickpapageorgio
2012-05-04 23:19:14

Yeah, yet another item the Realtors leave out of their buy now spin.

 
 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2012-05-04 09:20:54

“In the US, Manhattan is most expensive, but globally it’s cheap”.

Californians and New Yawkers have been outbidding the locals for properties and land out in Flyover for years .

Now, the native Californians and New Yorkers get to compete against the Global 1%ers.

Yeah, that global free market dogma is working out well for the Average American Joe.

Comment by In Colorado
2012-05-04 14:07:44

Maybe over the next 10 years we’ll see an increasing exodus of native Californians leaving for flyover as they are displaced by foreign richies. I supppose that by that point, NO ONE will speak English in the golden state ;-)

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-04 11:11:57

From the original post:

“Of these negatively geared investors, nearly three-quarters earned less than $80,000 in 2009-10, and the average loss was $9132 per negatively geared investor, or $176 per week. Not only are investment property holdings In Australia concentrated in lower-to-middle income groups, but also older age cohorts.”

To which I say:

Here in Tucson, a lot of the current all-cash investors are, ahem, of a certain age. I think that more than a few of them will end up being negatively geared.

Not because they’re not carrying a mortgage, but because of what their tenants will do to the in-VEST-ments. We’re talking people who treat the house they’re renting like something that’s in a demolition derby.

Landlords take them to court all the time, but they’re seldom able to get the tenants to pay for repairs to the damage. Which means that the landlords have to eat the (considerable) costs.

Comment by 2banana
2012-05-04 12:07:50

The best landlords I have ever seen (and consistently made money):

Were the nicest people to you when you paid your rent on time and took care of the house.

Could do major plumbing, electrical, flooring and carpentry repairs all by themselves… At 3 AM. On Christmas eve.

And…

Could turn psycho (and I mean scary-psycho) if there were issues that were due to not paying the rent or not taking of the house. And had good connections with the police, child protective services, the courts, DEA, etc.

Unfortunately - many renters are “motivated” by that fear.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-04 12:37:56

Back to good ole Tucson again. Where there’s this program called Crime-Free Multihousing. You can participate if you own or manage an apartment complex. Owners of SFR rentals are also welcome to participate.

This program has an application process that’s very effective at filtering out bad tenants. That’s why I wish that more SFR owners would join it.

 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-04 16:00:40

You bring up an interesting point. Since we pay our rent faithfully, we have never tested our landlords.

I further note that for the time being, the effective rules on not paying your mortgage are far more lenient than those for not paying rent. The big servicers are simply far more impersonal than your typical friendly neighborhood landlord-investor.

Time will tell if this will go on forever.

 
 
 
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