May 10, 2012

Prices Can’t Get Any Lower

The Mercury News reports from California. “Dave Cullinane and Karen Beeson, mortgage loan officers with EverBank in Campbell, discussed the type of clientele they are serving these days. The California Association of Realtors’ 2011 survey of California home buyers shared by Cullinane and Beeson, both affiliates with the Silicon Valley Association of Realtors, shows the median age of today’s buyer is 35 years old. Cullinane said although the share of first-time home buyers has dropped from previous years, it still remains high at 43 percent. Beeson noted the survey shows buyers are motivated by price decreases, mortgage interest and property tax deductions. In fact, 82 percent said they were motivated to buy because they believed ‘prices can’t get any lower.’”

“Buyers continue to report having difficulty obtaining financing. On a scale of 1 to 10, with one 1 being easy and 10 being very difficult, the median answer among buyers was 9, unchanged from the previous year. Additionally, 76 percent reported they did not close escrow on time. The mortgage officers then shared other studies indicating that despite the recent housing market crisis, a majority of Americans still consider buying a home as the best investment. Research conducted by Pew Research Center showed eight out of 10 Americans agree buying a home is the best long-term investment a person can make.”

The Herald.net. “Question: I saw your column on the subject of novice real estate investors. There is one issue I am interested in just as a public issue. This is the idea people seem to believe in that anyone who invests in real estate is somehow entitled to a rental income that is at least equal to their expenses. The idea that one can, by spending a tiny amount, end up owning a property worth hundreds of thousands without investing any further amount of one’s own money just isn’t very plausible.”

“I lived in Merced County in California at the height of the real estate bubble. Bay Area investors came in thinking they could put $5,000 down on a $400,000 property in an economically depressed area and get someone to pay $1,800 a month in rent. Never worked, and I knew from day one it wouldn’t.”

“Answer: You raise a good point, and I agree with you. The no-money-down craze was popular when home prices were appreciating rapidly. The idea was that the rising home price would more than make up for any short-term negative cash flow you might have while holding the property. But as we all know now, home prices don’t always go up. For the past six years home prices have dropped throughout the Puget Sound region. If you bought a home with no money down near the peak of the housing market, not only have you been losing money every month with negative rental income, but you have also lost the value of your home, so it’s a double whammy.”

The Ashland Daily Tidings. “The voice on the other end of Terry Rasmussen’s phone stirred memories of a time when Californians routinely called to inquire about how soon they could get into a house. ‘California real estate is starting to wake up again, and people are getting out if they can,’ said Rasmussen, a John L. Scott real estate agent who talked twice Friday to a business owner in the Golden State’s Central Valley who had Oregon on his mind.”

“‘The caller wants to transfer his mom-and-pop business up here,’ Rasmussen said. ‘The tax-debt load for every Californian, based on state government debt, is too much, and they don’t want to be part of that.’”

“SOMLS spokesman Colin Mullane said consumer confidence is building. ‘We’re starting to see more consistent gains in median prices, and not just hit-and-miss results,’ Mullane said. “Buyers no longer fear future losses, or at least don’t think they will be as significant.’”

The Orange County Register. “As a postindustrial economy of technology, services and trade took root, California drew new waves of immigrants, mostly from other countries, and fecund young immigrants ignited a new baby boom. Its population exploded again in the 1980s, with growth averaging well over 2 percent a year, increasing the total from 24 million in 1980 to 30 million in 1990.”

“A new report from California’s Department of Finance estimates that growth was only 0.7 percent in 2011 – just a third of the 1980s rate. A massive new study by demographers at the University of Southern California concludes that California will see sub-1 percent growth rates for decades to come, due to sharply lower immigration and birthrates, with 6 million fewer residents by 2040 than previously thought.”

“The potential impacts – positive and negative – are immense. It would lessen demand for public infrastructure and services, thus easing the backlog of unmet needs. But it would also lower demand for housing and dampen retail sales and employment, which would mean less economic activity and tax revenue.”

Your Houston News. “Joel Kotkin probably knows more than anyone about the paradise California once was and the dysfunctional place it has become. Kotkin, one of the country’s top demographers, pointed out the other day that almost 4 million people have left California in the last 20 years. That’s 4 million above and beyond the people who have moved in from other states. He says most of those fleeing are young, middle-class families seeking lower taxes and affordable living costs. Kotkin, who calls himself a ‘Truman Democrat,’ says the regime in Sacramento and its ‘progressive war on the middle-class lifestyle’ is responsible for the destruction of the California dream.”

“I’m no demographer. But as far as I can tell, there’s only one sure way to reverse California’s death spiral — vote the Democrats out of power in Sacramento. That means Republicans — conservative Republicans allied with sensible Truman Democrats — need to stand up and take back their state from the crazies. The trouble is, the Republican Party of California is almost as much of a mess as the state. It has no leadership, no heroes, little money and no clear message. The state GOP has another big problem — Republicans have run out of courage.”

From Politico. “As home prices have plummeted in areas hit hardest by the real estate bust, so have political contributions from rich Republican donors, a POLITICO analysis of campaign finance data shows. Four years after a presidential race that flooded American politics with more than $800 million in itemized contributions, high-dollar donations in the Republican presidential primary are down 25 percent through March, most visibly at the epicenters of the housing crash.”

“Primary giving is down 55 percent around Phoenix, where homes have lost half their pre-recession values. It has dropped almost 40 percent in Las Vegas, where Zillow showed in February that home prices have plummeted nearly 60 percent since December 2007. And it’s fallen 60 percent in California’s Inland Empire, where homes have given back half their boom-time values.’

“‘Look, the Inland Empire is ground zero for the foreclosure crisis,’ said Jim Brulte, a former Republican state senator from San Bernardino County. ‘A lot of the political money on both sides, Republicans and Democrats, came from homebuilders. Some players who were significant donors as early as six, seven years ago are no longer in existence.’”

The Santa Maria Times. “David Altig, director of research for the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, and Peter Rupert, executive director of the UCSB Economic Forecast Project, said economic prospects both nationwide and on the Central Coast are slowly improving. But whether the recovery will continue long enough to dig the nation’s economy out of its post-recession morass remains to be seen.”

“According to the California Employment Development Department, farm labor, food service and retail sales will be the top job-growth markets over the next 10 years. Because those are such low paying jobs — approximately $20,000 per year — the potential to sustain consumer spending isn’t very high. According to the UCSB forecast, personal income has not risen in Santa Maria, Lompoc or Guadalupe since 2006. Altig said he didn’t hold out a great deal of hope the recovery would continue because ‘consumer spending is growing faster than personal disposable income.’”

“Both economists said the struggling housing market is affecting consumer spending and the job market. Altig said the good news is the housing market has nearly bottomed out. The bad news is there are more than 2.5 million homeowners around the country who are 90 days past due on payments, and the number of bank-owned properties hasn’t changed much since 2008, which could give rise to another round of foreclosures. ‘That looks like a situation poised for further price reductions,’ Altig said.”

The SF Weekly. “A crowd has gathered around Geary Brown and his letter. ‘Look what I got,’ he says, almost in a whisper. They see the Bank of America masthead and the curt, three-sentence paragraph saying that the bank is considering giving him a loan modification. It is the first communication from the bank in three months, since the eviction warning in December. ‘Congrats, Geary!’ says a woman.”

“Between 2008 and 2012, according to projections from real estate database RealtyTrac, nearly 1,500 homes in Bayview’s zip code will have been foreclosed on — a massive swath for an area with around 10,000 housing units. To many residents’ minds, the foreclosures serve to clear the path for the city’s plans to redevelop and gentrify Bayview-Hunters Point, the southeastern neighborhood that both locals and Realtors call the final patch of San Francisco not yet redeveloped. ‘It’s all about money,’ deadpans Brown. ‘They’re trying to get us out of here so they can develop.’”

“Geary and Shirley Brown bought their first home in June 1995. He had built up savings from his years as a trucker and was then making a solid wage as a Muni bus driver. Throw in Shirley’s income as a nursing assistant and they could afford the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage for the two-story, three-bedroom, two-bathroom, $194,500 hilltop house in Bayview.”

“Brown got back into trucking in 1998 when Pac Bell Park construction started up. Soon he was pulling in six figures. By 2005, he wanted to expand his business, so he took advantage of his rapidly appreciating property and refinanced his home for $300,000 with Wilmington Financial — he’d been getting pamphlets in the mail describing how smart and lucrative refinancing was, with Brown pocketing most of the $106,000 difference.”

“Seven months later, property values still rising, he replaced that loan with a $431,550 loan from Equifirst; and then again in January 2007 for $475,000 with Countrywide Home Loans. For all three mortgages, the lenders offered him their ‘pick-a-payment’ program, which allowed homeowners to select how they wanted to pay off the loan. Brown chose the option with the lowest monthly payment: an adjustable-rate mortgage, where monthly payments begin at a certain amount before increasing after a set number of years. For the $475,000 mortgage, he started paying $1,800 a month.”

“He used the new money to buy a 2000 Peterbilt truck. He hired drivers. The rest of the refinance cash paid off his bills. To Brown, who’d worked hard all his life to earn his house, the refinance felt like a well-deserved reward. He wasn’t the only one, of course. Many of the homeowners at that Saturday afternoon barbecue had reason to refinance. ”

“The story is familiar by now: The housing market collapsed, and property values tanked, meaning that many homeowners could no longer pay off the mortgage by selling the house. Compounding the problem for Brown, the adjustable-rate mortgage payments had increased after two years, from $1,800 to $2,800. ‘I should have read and understood what they were doing,’ he says. ‘I should have read the fine print about the percentage rate on the loan, and how long that was supposed to last. I didn’t think about the economy. I didn’t see that far ahead.’”

“By January the bank had put the house up for auction. The property was appraised at $252,191. In February, Brown’s wife died. ‘If you got money, you could stay here in San Francisco,’ he says. ‘If you don’t, don’t even think of coming back here, ’cause San Francisco is too expensive. You don’t like it, you can get with it or you don’t. That’s the way I see it. It’s not gonna change for me or you or anybody. Either you can handle it or you can’t. And me right now, I’m just tryna hold on ’cause I love this house, it’s me and my wife’s house, our first house and I can afford it.’”

“He looks up and smiles. ‘And I’m fittin’ to push it up a notch,’ he goes on. ‘Buy me a few more pieces of property. I’m a rent this out, probably six, seven, eight months down the road. Take up this carpet, do this floor, and probably rent it out, buy me another house.’”

“Since getting that letter a few weeks ago, Brown has heard again from Bank of America. ‘The bank made a judgment,’ Brown discloses, unprompted. ‘They said they’re not gonna modify.’ He must vacate his house by May 2.’




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77 Comments »

Comment by combotechie
2012-05-10 05:59:17

“Research conducted by Pew Research Center showed eight out of ten Americans agree buying a home is the best long-term investment a person can make.”

This is true capital, this belief, just as unmined ore at a mining site is true capital. But after the capital in the form of ore from the mine is exhausted you will end up with a ghost town. And after the capital in the form of belief about housing is exhausted you will end up with a bunch of ghost towns.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 06:31:33

No housing bottom until eight out of ten Americans believe housing is the worst long-term investment. The very idea that housing is best is a fatuous and ephemeral bubble-era fantasy, fostered by an army of Used Home Sellers fond of saying “there has never been a better time to buy,” and bolstered by federal intervention to slow housing’s decent to a fundamental bottom.

As Bill in LA often points out here, in the long run, stocks kill housing as an investment. I suspect when the dust finally settles on the collapsed housing bubble, the same will prove true this time around.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2012-05-10 07:54:35

Having grown up in Fresno, which is in the farm belt and experiences double digit unemployment even in boom years, and having observed urban blight march northward in that area, it is easy to say that real estate is not an investment.

In Phoenix people say “it’s different.” Okay, no significant seasonal labor, but the bubble was also a false boom there. No job growth anspd salary growth to match price growth. Crash. Today in Phoenix, there still is no substantial high paying job growth. Much talk about Intels new fabrication facility, but that is about it. Biggest employers are the box stores. Even so, the Phoenix real estate cheerleaders are back on blogs. Of course I mention HBB and they dismiss it. The damage is that they are trying to suck in naive Canadiens to “snap up” rentals. The $100,000 and under deals are all but gone. And many people brag they bought a year ago. But they don’t tell you the truth that $100,000 and under homes are in ghetto/meth/trashy neighborhoods. Why would I rent a house in meth central when I can rent an apartment in a clean neighborhood with nice amenities? Silence. I tell them they would put in less work and have fewer worries and good profits by dollar cost averaging in low expense stock index funds but they prefer listening to Donald Trump.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-10 11:47:48

Today in Phoenix, there still is no substantial high paying job growth.

Same thing down here in Tucson. And I just had a conversation with one of my best friends. She’s talking about bailing on Tucson and moving back to California.

Yep. You heard that right. Someone who’s returning to the Golden State.

But, for the kind of work she does, California would be a much better place for her. A lot of her work comes from the biotech industry, and those companies are in San Diego, not here.

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Comment by Rental Watch
2012-05-10 14:02:14

I was looking a while back at some data regarding the components of CA population growth (organic vs. migration).

When housing was the most highly priced (2005-2007), people were leaving the state in droves…birth/death balance still kept the state in positive population growth territory, but migration out of the state dampened population growth.

Before that, and after that, there was net migration into the state.

I haven’t seen a scientific study on this, but it would make sense that people would migrate to the best climate where they can get a job and afford to live. If you take out jobs, and affordability relative to those jobs, people don’t/can’t migrate to the good climates.

I suspect that your friend would think twice about moving back to CA if prices were still at 2006 levels, even if there was work waiting for her there.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-10 14:37:20

I suspect that your friend would think twice about moving back to CA if prices were still at 2006 levels, even if there was work waiting for her there.

She got out from under a house here in Tucson a couple of years ago. I wasn’t exactly in favor of her buying that place to begin with, but by the time I heard about it, ’twas a done deal.

So, I don’t expect her to be a prospective CA homebuyer anytime soon.

However, she is toying with the idea of getting a real estate license so she can sell high-end CA real estate. Yours Truly blasted that one out of the water. She’s in PR consulting now and doesn’t deal well with the stress. Real estate stress would be an order of magnitude greater.

Furthermore, I doubt that real estate novices would start out in high-end sales. ISTR that you need experience first.

 
 
Comment by BetterRenter
2012-05-10 13:55:09

“Why would I rent a house in meth central when I can rent an apartment in a clean neighborhood with nice amenities?”

Bill, it’s because of Section 8 and SSI. Our housing market would be significantly saner if we got rid of that nonsense. And by “saner” I mean housing would be cheaper, and places like the ‘hood would be spectacularly cheaper, even compared with today.

I wouldn’t say these things if I didn’t see them on a daily basis. There are worse neighborhoods than mine, but not much worse, and the neighborhoods that are better are a significant majority. The bottom 4th of 5 quartiles, definitely. Houses around here are well below $100K, but they should be uniformly changing hands for $2000-8000, if Sec8/SSI were turned off. Rents would be concomitantly cheaper, but with stiff penalties for tenant malfeasance.

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Comment by oxide
2012-05-10 08:14:40

As Bill in LA often points out here, in the long run, stocks kill housing as an investment.

Can we make this a weekend topic? I think a calculation — problably several calculations for several scenarios — is in order.

Comment by Rental Watch
2012-05-10 14:25:22

Another reason why one should not view housing as an investment…it’s a place to live.

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Comment by Robin
2012-05-10 17:55:10

I’d love to see a dollar-cost-averaging comparison between stocks and housing over different timelines.

Last 5 years real estate loses, definitely, but what about longer timelines?

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Comment by BetterRenter
2012-05-10 13:41:51

“The very idea that housing is best is a fatuous and ephemeral bubble-era fantasy[.]“

I’ll see you and raise you one: Your personal house isn’t an investment at all.

An investment is that which grows your wealth in excess of inflation. Over the long term, housing tacks incomes; that means your residence merely grows in price to match what people’s wages can buy, and that means it merely grows in price to match the prices of other houses. So when you sell and then must buy another house to live in, you merely end up in another house, exactly like you were before.

The only ways that housing can be an investment is when it exceeds long-term inflation (which means you got lucky or there’s a bubble), or you’re not living in it (so you rent it out).

So we’re looking at the only two ways you can make housing be a real investment: Luck/bubble or rental. Over the long term, the first sort of thing doesn’t work, and the latter thing doesn’t apply (since you can’t live in the housing and also rent the same space out to tenants).

Hence: Buying a house to live in it, isn’t an investment at all. That people propose otherwise is a particularly pervasive piece of propaganda. And we’re not going to improve until that propaganda is soundly defeated, as you clearly stated. I live for that day.

Comment by Carl Morris
2012-05-10 14:56:56

An investment is that which grows your wealth in excess of inflation.

That means that my conservative, wait-for-the-other-shoe-to-drop 401(k) isn’t an investment right now either.

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Comment by Rental Watch
2012-05-10 14:59:30

I generally agree with the nuance of leverage.

If the cost of ITI and maintenance is generally equal to the cost of renting, then you generally will gain a benefit from the leverage you utilize.

Said another way, you don’t need to pay back your mortgage with inflation adjusted dollars. 2% inflation over 20 years is roughly a 50% increase in value. If you bought a house with ITI/Maintenance=rental equivalent (no principal reduction to make the test pure), and 20% down, on a year-in-year-out basis, you were break even generally on your monthly cost of shelter. On a $100 purchase, the value would be $150 at the end of that 20 years.

This also doesn’t take into the consideration that on the rental side, your rents will likely continue to rise, while your monthly payment will not (maintenance WILL go up).

However, you need to pay back $80, when you resell for $150 (and pay your $9 commission). Your $20 grew to $61 during that timeframe…a bit over a 5.5% rate of return…better than inflation.

Said a third way, to determine whether it costs more to own than rent, the more appropriate comparison might be ITI PLUS maintenance, with the interest rate being the REAL rate (not nominal), as compared to rents.

Overall though, like the stock market, the entry point matters. If you buy into the bubble, you’re hosed. If you buy after the crash, you are probably going to be OK, as long as you didn’t buy a money-pit in a declining neighborhood.

My perspective is from that of someone who has watched real estate professionals gain massive wealth by owning commercial properties, whereby over long periods of time, the positive effect of leverage (and paying back debt with nominal, not real dollars) has allowed tremendous leveraged returns on their equity investments. Even though the real estate has only gone up with inflation, the positive effects of leverage has allowed their equity to grow far faster than inflation.

Homes are a unique case, in that very frequently in market cycles, houses are overpriced based on their rental income potential, this is mainly because of the view (fed to us at an early age from adults) that housing is a good investment…commercial properties this is generally less the case (with the exception of the occasional speculative bubble in commercial properties).

Overall, real estate can be a good investment, housing is on the poorer end of that, since people tend to overpay because they are not in the business of evaluating the property as a real estate investment, but only as an occupant…and they get excited about things that they should be evaluating on cold-hard facts.

Fire up the eggs…I’m ready.

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Comment by WT Economist
2012-05-10 06:21:41

California has its problems, but Kotkin is full of it (I’m not just talking about this piece).

The suburbs and the Sunbelt are aging. You get a fiscal windfall when lots of working age people move in and your population soars, but you have relatively few older people (and public employee pensioners) left over from your less populated past to pay for.

But then you are all built out, with no more cheap open land within your boundaries (or, in the SF and LA areas west of the mountains) and guess what, your growth stalls. Meanwhile, your existing housing units are increasingly occupied by retirees, aside from bad housing in bad neighborhoods occupied by the poor.

The former Mayor of Albuquerque wrote a book about how that won’t happen to the Sunbelt, because easy annexation laws allow cities to annex developing areas. But he forgot that the City of York annexed five whole counties, and the cities of San Francisco and Philadelphia annexed one whole county. That’s just a phase.

The suburbs and the Sunbelt are just facing what older cities faced in the 1950s and 1960s when people moved on to the suburbs and the Sunbelt, and what rural areas faced before that as people moved to the cities. Kotkin’s way of life is going out of style.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 06:33:15

Where do people who are now leaving the Sunbelt go?

Comment by XGs-fixr
2012-05-10 06:41:52

Oil City

 
Comment by polly
2012-05-10 07:59:34

In the case of retirees? Back to wherever their kids have jobs so they can see their grandkids and be gently supervised/assisted until they can no longer take care of themselves. There is a whole subset of older women in my building who seem to be widows who have been moved into apartments by their successful kids so they can putter around the neighborhood window shopping, going to book groups and chair yoga classes at the Village Center, stopping off at the post office, etc. Its an easy shuttle bus ride to two grocery stores and two malls. The Village Center runs evening activities too (movies just out on DVD most Thursdays and concerts most Wednesdays).

I presume there is a similar, if less independent, version of this happening with grandma or grandpa taking over the den on the ground floor as her or his bedroom all over the country. Older people need help and they can’t get it easily from kids living a thousand miles away. And my understanding is that medical care in Florida is terrible.

Are non-retirees really leaving?

Comment by Young Deezy
2012-05-10 08:24:26

Are people leaving? I’ve known a number of people who have left, almost all were the sort of people that California should be looking to retain. Small business owners, skilled tradesmen, enterpeneurs–all taxpayers and law abiding citizens.

Many (most, actually) of these folks were in their late 20’s to 30’s and had either just started families or were looking to start families, and they just found California too expensive/oppressive and lacking the quality of life they were looking for.

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 11:26:13

California hates its productive class, aside from the superstar tech gurus and Hollywood entertainers.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2012-05-10 16:21:17

CIBT-

One area where CA excels is in encouraging entrepreneurs.

My wife is an attorney in the tech industry…many things like non-compete clauses that are standard fare in employment contracts for other states are generally unenforceable in CA. So, if you are an employee of a company, and you want to leave to start your own business that may compete with your former employer, you are free to do so, and it is illegal for your former employer to stop you (regardless of what is agreed in the employment contract).

I was just reminded of this while negotiating an agreement with my business partners, and we were covering non-compete clauses. Our attorney reminded us that we need to draft such separation provisions in certain ways as to not run afoul of CA laws (there are exceptions for certain kinds of service industries, etc.).

Plusses and minuses…employers don’t want to be subject to such laws. People who may want to start businesses don’t want to be subject to such provisions.

 
 
Comment by oxide
2012-05-10 08:26:53

+1 Polly.

I specifically bought a one-story home, figuring that I would need it someday. When get the money to renovate, I’m going to aim for universal design, figuring that I’ll need that someday too.

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Comment by Robin
2012-05-10 18:11:47

What is universal design?

 
 
Comment by Salinasron
2012-05-10 10:15:25

people making their career’s in Washington D.C. Need to follow their fellow workers in retirement until they need to go into a home. My uncle was a founding attorney for what became the FCC. He left the FCC to go into a private communications law firm, and then went back to the FCC to head it until he retired. After all those years in D.C. He headed off to Florida to be near his son. His son then job relocated to another part of Fl and then to Virginia. Meanwhile all my uncle’s friends had retired to Phoenix. My uncle moved to CA and rented to be near his two brothers but felt left out as he could not relate to past family events nor them to life in D.C.. He moved back to Ohio where he grew up and the same sequence of events happened. He finally moved to Phoenix where he lived until he passed away and his son came there to live with him and his mom.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-10 11:52:43

Back when I first moved to AZ for good (I’d been a snowbird for one winter before I came back here), I thought my being here would inspire my parents to move out west.

Never happened.

And, despite the fact that one of them (my dad) is in failing health, I think they’re better off where they are than out here. Why? Because they know people in PA. Oh, do they ever. Bringing them out here would put them in the grave very quickly. And I don’t want that.

 
 
 
Comment by Jerry
2012-05-10 09:17:25

Sold in July 2005 after living in “over priced ‘ House in San Diego and bought a small beautiful farm in the North West with the $500 thousand dollars tax free . To say the Federal Reserve, Bankers, Washington DC. didn’t see this is all coming is garbage. It was a scam all along and the big one to hit soon is the debasement of the dollar bill. Many will wonder why their dollars won’t buy more as inflation steals “their buying power”. The other big scam the elite know is coming!

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2012-05-10 11:49:44

Back in ‘09, I was visiting my aunt in northern VT. One of her acquaintances was a former Floridian who told me in no uncertain terms that she was happy to be back in VT. She really missed her family while she was living in FL.

 
Comment by nickpapageorgio
2012-05-10 19:43:11

“Where do people who are now leaving the Sunbelt go?”

To the carousel.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2012-05-10 06:40:42

I read a lot of different editorials on this study. Some were very happy that people are leaving, saying that it solves some of their problems in the state. But at the same time they would acknowledge the aging boomers combined with the drain of younger people would cause a squeeze on tax revenue and house prices.

Comment by WT Economist
2012-05-10 07:16:03

That’s a problem places need to get through. You can say that it is the problem of developed countries, with their aging populations, at a small scale.

Of course if aging places pre-financed their public employee pension and health care plans correctly, and didnt’ retroactively make them more generous, and dind’t go deep in debt, they wouldn’t have these problems. Yes they would have fewer workers and more retirees, but they would also have fewer school children to pay for.

In any event, the a rising share of the young who have jobs now want to live in walkable cities with transit, but most have ceased to be economically viable, so the few that still are have sky high housing prices and little room to expand. The young without jobs are living in their parent’s basement.

And as for coastal California, it isn’t as if the middle class is fleeing because they don’t want to live there at any price. The middle class is fleeing because they can’t afford it. And the Inland Empire and Sacramento have proven to be too far away and not any more desirable than Phoenix. That’s the problem.

Comment by WT Economist
2012-05-10 07:45:25

Actually, California has the “Yogi Berra” problem.

“Nobody ever goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.”

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Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 07:52:04

The housing crash ain’t over till it’s over.

 
Comment by 2banana
2012-05-10 08:21:16

Except Yogi wasn’t talking about illegals and a massive free sh*t army.

“Nobody ever goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.”

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 06:40:33

“A massive new study by demographers at the University of Southern California concludes that California will see sub-1 percent growth rates for decades to come, due to sharply lower immigration and birthrates, with 6 million fewer residents by 2040 than previously thought.”

One result of top-down intervention to artificially prop up California housing prices (e.g. by withholding inventory from the market) has been to prevent young families from moving to the state and planting the roots that might have sprouted green shoots of economic growth. The economy’s regenerative capacity has been shut down by extend-and-pretend.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 07:13:07

“But it would also lower demand for housing and dampen retail sales and employment, which would mean less economic activity and tax revenue.”

The silver lining: Lower demand for housing normally leads to improved affordability.

Comment by AmazingRuss
2012-05-10 13:10:14

House prices have dropped from “insane” to “ridiculous”. Huzzah!

You can often rent a place there for less than what the property tax on it would be if you bought it, because the landlord bought it much cheaper than it would sell for now. Buy it at the new price, and the taxes explode.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2012-05-10 07:17:35

I’d agree with that one. High housing prices in the places people want to live are the problem. Califonia’s population growth was halted by the housing bubble.

 
 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2012-05-10 06:59:15

I spent most of my life in California. In Fresno, also in the high desert, and several years in Los Angeles. I know the fiscal positions of the California Republican legislatures are more socialistic than many Democrat legislatures of flyover states.

Having worked in other states and having a residence in Arizona, I see things from different perspectives. I also am in a debate with myself on how to protect myself against California takers. Those who use legal means to take from the productive and give to the unwilling. It is unjust. I am thinking the nearly ten percent capital gains tax in California is so crazy that it is becoming worth it to only sell a gain when I am no longer earning money in California and am earning it in a low tax state. 9.5 percent versus Arizona’s 4.7% is significant. And Arizona is cutting its capital gains tax rate by 25% to under 4% by 2015.

Comment by In Colorado
2012-05-10 07:49:07

Sez the man whose paycheck is funded via taxation.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2012-05-10 07:58:15

Probability is that yours is too, as well as over 59 % of all HBBers and residents of your city. The leviathan state makes it almost impossible to strike it rich without its tentacles.

I never vote in favor of bond referendums. I vote for candidates who want to cut taxes and sounding the most.

I don’t give a dam what you think, punk. Go p1ss up a rope.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2012-05-10 08:00:42

“spending”

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Comment by Montana
2012-05-10 09:57:06

No, Bill, since you work for the feds in one way or another, you must cravenly capitulate to the Way things Are. You must learn to love it…state insolvency is Good!

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Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2012-05-10 12:31:17

No, Bill, since you work for the feds in one way or another, you must cravenly capitulate to the Way things Are.

I not buying it Montana. I think you are just defending “Johnny Weissmuller” because of his politics.

I don’t often agree with you but I don’t recall you championing hypocrisy before.

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2012-05-10 10:35:21

“Probability is that yours is too”

Yeah, but I don’t bitch about taxes like you do. You want to have your cake and eat it too.

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Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2012-05-10 12:14:50

Go p1ss up a rope……I don’t give a dam what you think, punk. Bill in Los Angeles

LOL! Judging by your hostile reaction and spelling mistakes (often caused by angry, knee-jerk reactions) you apparently DO give a dam what he thinks.

It would actually be good if you really didn’t care that many think you are a flaming hypocrite. (Because then you’d spell better) :)

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Comment by mikeinbend
2012-05-10 12:27:29

Maybe the misspellings are to get past any profanity filters? Calling a reasonable dude a punk is uncalled for, though, especially if Colo is right in his observation.

Take ownership of your positions, sir, and less folks will think you a hypocrite, not that you give a dam(sick).

Heck, if I know how long it takes Bila to swim a mile….I think he may care about what folks think, or why bother posting your enviable swim times/life strategies?

Contrast with Awaiting, who simply states that she uses the treadmill to keep healthy, or Slim, who bikes about town, sharing info in a non bragging, non-looserish, manner.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2012-05-10 12:39:36

Maybe the misspellings are to get past any profanity filters?

I don’t think “spending” gets filtered. :)

Or maybe he does vote for politicians who want to cut “sounding” the most. After all, we already know how deep the ocean is.

 
 
Comment by mikeinbend
2012-05-10 12:15:24

What happens when you do that w/ a rope?
(I have never heard that particular zinger)

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Comment by Robin
2012-05-10 18:18:10

You may be rich, Bill, but I am fully confident that nyou do’t own a “dam”.

At least not a permitted one - :)

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Comment by Robin
2012-05-10 18:20:22

Damn nyou!

Old fingers - :)

 
 
 
 
Comment by Anonymous Coward
2012-05-10 15:39:57

I am no fan of taxes of any kind, and I would agree with lot of what you say, Bill. But I think the whole idea behind lower capital gains taxes than income taxes is just plain flawed and favors wealth accumulation and further investment by the already wealthy as opposed to wealth accumulation and further investment by people actually earning an income.

And mikeinbend, what happens is… Well, it gets messy.

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2012-05-10 21:45:56

No I still disagree with most of you. America is highly socialistic. The government has monopololies. School teachers are important and necessary but their field should be totally private. Letter carriers too. The constitution mandates a certain amount of socialism: collecting taxes to pay for research and development of defensive weapons for the U.S. Armed forces. So idiot Colorado would want no competing bids for weapons development. Just cost overruns by government employees. I know because I was a weapons developer in federal government for eleven years. We had no overtime pay. No one worked extra hours because we would never be fired if we openly communicate. To this day I know people there at the base who still refuse to work over 40 hours a week. They say that if the schedules were set up right to begin with, 40 is enough. Our product was no better than what private contractors delivered. Read that again. I am not BSing. I was on a program which went on for six years even though three years into it the other government entity did not want the product. Government in action. In reality, in the tough years there is no paid overtime in private defense industry either. In my current project they count weekends in the schedule, but of course it is unrealistic. piss up a rope Effing Colorado because you do not know what you are talking about. If the constitution did not state “provide for the common defense” then I would agree. Also, even if you own your small grocery store, if one customer is a government employee, you are getting paid by the government. What you are saying is that no one should want a small government since someone is getting paid by the taxpayer. That is nutty of you Colorado types. HBB was about ridiculing collectivists and the government-manufactured bubble. It is turning out to be about pro nanny staters. WTF? I for one do not buy your argument that boils down to that since America is a mixed economy we better not return to a free economy. Retard.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 07:05:57

“If you bought a home with no money down near the peak of the housing market, not only have you been losing money every month with negative rental income, but you have also lost the value of your home, so it’s a double whammy.”

Potential upside to the situation: You may qualify for a ‘Save Our Homes’ underwater borrower bailout program.

Comment by Ben Jones
2012-05-10 07:32:47

‘bought their first home in June 1995…they could afford the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage for the two-story, three-bedroom, two-bathroom, $194,500 hilltop house in Bayview.’

‘Brown…was pulling in six figures. By 2005, he wanted to expand his business, so he took advantage of his rapidly appreciating property and refinanced his home for $300,000…pocketing most of the $106,000 difference.’

‘Seven months later, property values still rising, he replaced that loan with a $431,550 loan from Equifirst; and then again in January 2007 for $475,000 with Countrywide Home Loans. For all three mortgages, the lenders offered him their ‘pick-a-payment’ program’

It’s hard to see his beef. He sold the same house, that he didn’t have that much equity in, to the lender 3 times in 2 years. He got to live in it, and now wants to get the loan reduced. With such a sweet deal, it’s no wonder he wants to double down:

‘Buy me a few more pieces of property. I’m a rent this out…buy me another house.’

 
 
Comment by Carl Morris
2012-05-10 07:55:57

To Brown, who’d worked hard all his life to earn his house, the refinance felt like a well-deserved reward.

This was an important part of the bubble psychology, and I think it’s a big reason why people can’t wait for it to come back. This was how J6P finally got his financial reward. Since he can’t get it from his job any more this is how things are “supposed to be”.

Comment by 2banana
2012-05-10 08:23:16

A fully paid off house would be a better reward…

To Brown, who’d worked hard all his life to earn his house, the refinance felt like a well-deserved reward.

Comment by Carl Morris
2012-05-10 08:58:36

Well, nobody said he was smart. I think he gave up on that dream a long time ago.

 
 
Comment by Neuromance
2012-05-10 12:49:57

I posted a link from The Economist yesterday which said manufacturing jobs had dropped by a third from 2000 to 2010.

Also, today the weekly new jobless claims numbers came out. There was some minor celebration, it had dropped by 1000. However, in the context of a rapidly shrinking labor force (mostly involuntarily I’d suppose), this is hardly great news.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 07:56:48

The serial bottom callers seem pretty confident their stopped-clock prediction will pan out this time around.

Can anyone document at what point higher home prices became tantamount to an “improvement”? I thought affordability was the longstanding policy goal, and it seems clear that higher prices and increased affordability are mutually exclusive outcomes.

Drop in homes for sale is strengthening prices in many spots
By Julie Schmit, USA TODAY
Updated 2h 39m ago

The nation has fewer homes for sale, and that’s helping prices in markets where low supplies are meeting strong demand.

The U.S. had 2.37 million existing homes for sale at the end of March. That was down 22% from a year ago and 41% from the peak in mid-2007, the National Association of Realtors reported Wednesday.

First-quarter home sales, meanwhile, were up 5.3% from a year ago.

The combination of improving sales — coming off one of the worst years ever for home sales — and declining inventories is helping prices.

NAR says median existing single-family home prices rose in 74 of 146 U.S. markets in the first quarter, while they fell in 72 areas. In last year’s fourth quarter, 29 markets showed gains from a year earlier.

“Given the steadily dwindling supply of inventory and notably higher listing prices … prices are expected to show further improvements,” says Lawrence Yun, NAR chief economist.

At current levels, the housing inventory is at a more “normal” level, says CoreLogic economist Sam Khater. If home prices aren’t already at the bottom, “We’re not far away,” he says.

Comment by Neuromance
2012-05-10 13:06:44

“The Bottom”? I don’t see the bottom being reached until the shadow inventory situation is worked out. Right now, the Fed and government are trying to ignore it. But as the quote goes, “Facts do not cease to exist merely because they are inconvenient.”

Comment by Awaiting
2012-05-10 16:38:40

Shadow Inventory is a sore spot with me.
Stick a fork in it. Housing prices will not reach equilibrium for a long time.The PTB has done a fabulous job selling off REO’s to deep pocket infestors as rentals and letting FB off the hook, creating a tight and overpriced inventory reality.The whole rigged game repulses me.

Comment by Realtors Are Parasites®
2012-05-10 20:39:30

Give it time. Prices are falling irrespective of shadow inventory.

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Comment by The_Overdog
2012-05-10 08:01:32

“I lived in Merced County in California at the height of the real estate bubble. Bay Area investors came in thinking they could put $5,000 down on a $400,000 property in an economically depressed area and get someone to pay $1,800 a month in rent. Never worked, and I knew from day one it wouldn’t.”

————————
So if your house purchase price is $400k, you can’t get $1800 in rent in SF? That’s the rent comparable to a $220k house. I’d skip the $1800 a month dump and move into a million dollar place with $3k rent and live like a king!

Comment by The_Overdog
2012-05-10 08:04:33

Excuse me, Merced not SF.

Comment by mikeinbend
2012-05-10 12:37:54

When I sold out of CA for 860k, the rent on the unit was $3100. And others were more like $2000, as we had a granny flat. And we paid 400k for a home that rented for no higher than $1200 in Oregon in 2007. Also a home in Utah for 400k that rented for $1300. People in Bend, Logan Utah, or Merced are not gonna/cant pay 2k for rent.

It was for the equity gains; not the property “pencilling out”, that kept me purchasing houses. Worked until the properties stopped gaining in value. Now we have droves of accidental landlords who can’t sell or rent it out to cover their nut.

Luckily my houses were not leveraged, so I could sell them for a smaller pile of cash, but at least I could sell.

 
 
 
Comment by 2banana
2012-05-10 08:15:49

It is funny how no one wants to actually live under socialism. Even those who push for it at every election.

What is the first thing PUBLIC union goons do when they retire with an insane public union pension? Move to a low tax state!

Your Houston News. “Joel Kotkin probably knows more than anyone about the paradise California once was and the dysfunctional place it has become. Kotkin, one of the country’s top demographers, pointed out the other day that almost 4 million people have left California in the last 20 years. That’s 4 million above and beyond the people who have moved in from other states. He says most of those fleeing are young, middle-class families seeking lower taxes and affordable living costs. Kotkin, who calls himself a ‘Truman Democrat,’ says the regime in Sacramento and its ‘progressive war on the middle-class lifestyle’ is responsible for the destruction of the California dream.”

Comment by oxide
2012-05-10 08:39:46

I admit it, banana, they do. This is something even I would like to see changed. IMO, if you worked for the government, you should only collect your full pension if you live and pay taxes and buy stuff in the same county/city/state where you worked. Otherwise you pay a penalty. With very few exceptions, every county in the country has some boonie around the edges where a retiree could find low-cost living.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2012-05-10 12:59:43

It is funny how no one wants to actually live under socialism.

Yea, yea. And 50% “pay no taxes” and “tax cuts create jobs” and the moon is “made out of cheese?

“The Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey suggests 82 per cent of Canadians believe (the Canadian) system is better than U.S. health care….”I think there’s a growing sense that going fully private, or having some version of an almost fully private model like the American one, doesn’t necessarily serve the broader interest the way Canadians would want it to be served.” The Canadian Press, Date: Friday Jul. 10, 2009

According to the World Happiness Report….Canada is the fifth-happiest country in the world, according to a global study on the social and economic well-being of nations….The happiest countries are all in Northern Europe – Denmark, Norway, Finland and the Netherlands……It finds the world has, broadly speaking, become a “little happier” in the past three decades, as living standards have risen. (One exception is the United States, where life satisfaction has not improved). Globe and Mail 4/2/12

“Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage.” NYT 1/4/12

 
Comment by Muggy
2012-05-10 15:16:41

Let’s see, why not ask the guy that’s from upstate NY that lives in a quiet, Florida beach town.

Do I know any NY’ers here? No
Am I surrounded by public goon retirees? No
Are all of my former teachers (retired) still in Rochester? Yes, ALL.
Does every teacher here, from NY, wish they could live and work in NY? Yes, ALL.

 
Comment by nickpapageorgio
2012-05-10 20:12:18

“the regime in Sacramento and its ‘progressive war on the middle-class lifestyle’ is responsible for the destruction of the California dream”

At least Kotkin understands exactly who ruined that state…Progressives, they kill the host and keep moving on to the next one, I see them beginning to work their magic here in Arizona.

 
 
Comment by Realtors Are Swindlers®
2012-05-10 08:29:54

“Prices Can’t Get Any Lower”

Then why are they falling??

 
Comment by cactus
Comment by 2banana
2012-05-10 10:25:39

The link has been pulled!?

“We couldn’t find the page you asked for. Please use our search box to find the information you’re seeking.”

 
 
Comment by traderjack
2012-05-10 10:30:41

Bof A gives mortgage deduction of $100,000, State tax comes in and says pay tax on it , $11,000, Feds come in and say pay tax on it,$25,000, or is that forgiven too.

Where is homeowner going to get the money to pay the taxes ot the deduction of loan balance?

Or do you think the State won’t jump at the chance for those large sums of taxes?

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2012-05-10 11:27:57

“Where is homeowner going to get the money to pay the taxes ot the deduction of loan balance?”

Maybe they could borrow it?

 
Comment by josap
2012-05-10 21:44:47

You will get a 1099 from the lender for the amount forgiven. However, you don’t owe any tax at the Fed level. Debt Forgiveness Act - in force until the end of 2012. Not sure about the states. In most states where the 1st lein is non-recourse you won’t owe any taxes. You will pay tax on HELOC amounts forgiven and in some cases 2nds.

 
 
Comment by traderjack
2012-05-10 10:36:15

assume you are the County Tax Assessor. you see the banks forgiving loan balances, new appraisals by the bank, setting new valuations for the neighborhood, do you immediately re-assess homes in the neighborhood, or just affected homes?

Now County Income from PT declines and you have to tell BofSups that less money coming in!

What a possible kettle of fish that is!

 
Comment by Realtors Are Swindlers®
2012-05-10 15:21:52

“Since getting that letter a few weeks ago, Brown has heard again from Bank of America. ‘The bank made a judgment,’ Brown discloses, unprompted. ‘They said they’re not gonna modify.’ He must vacate his house by May 2.’

In other words, get yer $hit and GTFO. And make it snappy Mister.

 
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