The Housing Bubble

A lot of surplus housing was erected in the bubble. Of course many houses will be abandoned and demolished, until a balance is reached. That process will continue to put downward pressure on the rest of the housing stock, even the well maintained.

We built too many houses, too big houses, and too ugly houses.

We built too many houses, too big houses, and too ugly houses.

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!

When everyone wants out nobody wants in .

“In another decade, the physical condition of the housing stock will become a major issue. Deferred maintenance can easily run in the $30K range. That doesn’t include the ooh-shiny magazine renovations.”

Mr Market has no problem finding a suitably low price for defective homes, provided the interveners get out of the way and let the free market work.

Sounds like it might be a good situation for people who have both a downpayment and $30K of cash to do the fix up.

It’s a horrible idea at current inflated asking prices of resale housing.

They will bulldoze them down before it is all over with.

Bulldozing homes creates JOBS and recycling money for the homeless……

LOL, how many of “our kids” can afford to buy a decent used car? How many of “our kids” have money left over after providing for their basics every month?

We are still in the economic culture that buying something means accepting long term debt indenturement.

depends on where you live. In some markets, affordable housing is available to our kids right now.

Surprised? SF is 2nd least affordable city to buy

The study looked at median home price and the median income of cities around the country and came up with an affordability score. The score indicates the percentage of homes that a family earning the median income in that area can afford to buy. San Francisco’s affordability score was 32%. This wasn’t far behind the least affordable city in the U.S., which was Manhattan. Residents earning the median income in New York City could afford about 29.4% of the homes being sold in that area.

And the future doesn’t look too promising, as home prices in SF rose 18% in the 2nd quarter of this year. Outside of San Francisco, the rest of California is not cheap either. Santa Ana, representing the Orange County area and Los Angeles were also in the top 5 of least affordable cities. Modesto, having been slammed by the housing crisis, however took the fifth spot on the most affordable list.

Where’s the most affordable place to buy a home? That would be Youngstown, Ohio where the affordability score is 93.4%, followed by its neighbor, Dayton, Ohio. Midwest, anyone?

California and Manhattan prices have a long way to fall it seems.

Why buy in either location? Buy later after prices crater for 65% less.

Why buy in either location?

YOU could live in Youngstown, Ohio. Personally, I enjoy living in one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

Or you could rent in SF. Here’s today’s CL listings for 3 bedroom houses/apts for rent that allow dogs. I only searched those that were 6K and under per month:

Aug 15 - 3 bd. 2 ba. flat, views, bring your pets! ~ JWavro - $3550 / 3br - (inner sunset / UCSF) img

Aug 15 - 4 br/2 1/2 bath whole house in Sunset! - $3490 / 4br - 1800ft² - (sunset / parkside) pic

Aug 15 - 3 Bed 2 bath renovated Townhome- Hurry in!!! - $3640 / 3br - 1300ft² - (ingleside / SFSU / CCSF) pic

Aug 15 - 3 Bed 2.5 Bath Town Home with Private Patio!! Hurry!!! - $3800 / 3br - (ingleside / SFSU / CCSF) pic

Aug 15 - 3-BR 2 BA Home!! With Patio! Hurry!! - $3300 / 3br - 1300ft² - (ingleside / SFSU / CCSF) pic

Aug 15 - Beautiful Bay Bridge Views- Perfect for roommates! - $4060 / 3br - (SOMA / south beach) img

Aug 15 - Ex lg 4-bd, 3.5ba, 2-level rmdld house, amzing views, 2700 sqft, 4-car - $5995 / 4br - (cole valley / ashbury hts) img

Aug 15 - Upper Mkt/Cole Val, New, Luxury lg 3bd, 2.5ba, 2level, 2car, pets nego - $5750 / 3br - (cole valley / ashbury hts) img

Aug 15 - ID#929: 2BR+Den/2BA Condo w/Pkg &Prvt Dk/Gdn - $6000 / 3br - (pacific heights) img

Aug 15 - Paradise in Bayview - $1650 / 3br - (bayview) pic

Aug 15 - 2ba: Sunny Classic-Contemporary 1936 House. Ocean Views *Ready* Coombs - $4980 / 4br - 2600ft² - (west portal / forest hill) pic

Yes renting is less costly than buying at current inflated asking prices.

See? You really can learn to be truthful.

Our current rent is $2800 month. That’s cheap around here, unfortunately.

90K down payment asst. (interest free, deferred payment for 40 years) plus 25K cash with 3.5% interest on a 425K house.

We need a new place to live. Do the math.

Yeah, it’s a rock and a hard place, but I’ll still choose SF over Youngstown, Ohio. The surfing is better.

You do the math Pimp.

Enjoy your losses.

Dude, even if the house depreciates by 90K almost immediately, I wouldn’t care. Did you miss the part about 90K DP assistance (interest-free) deferred payment for 40 years?

The idea that one is a housing pimp because they need a stable place for themselves and their family is ridiculous.

Pimp implies that one does something for profit.

I continually maintain that using shelter - a basic human need - as a means for profit, is patently wrong.

The fact that you continually pimp inflated housing prices, is patently wrong.

You can work a lot of weekly hours in almost any country in any industry. The biggest difference it annual days off, of which we Americans get the LEAST.

Yeah, like the average Wal-Mart employee has $6k laying around. Sure.

feature deductibles reaching as high as $6,000 for family coverage under the “freedom plan”

Come on. “Freedom Plan”??! They have to be laughing their a$$es off at us coming up with these names and “plans”. (laughing all the way to the bailed out banks)

a full-time Wal-Mart worker could spend as much as 60 percent of his or her income on family health expenses before reaching the out-of-pocket maximum.”

Where’s the liberty in this? Most Americans are already in shackles….Uniquely American.

“Yeah, like the average Wal-Mart employee has $6k laying around. Sure.”

Its a great plan for 20-somethings. In my 20s my healthcare expenses were zero. Seems crazy but its true. Never went to a Dr or ER for any reason… never had to.

Now with a $6K deductible, if I had gotten in a terrible car accident I’d have coverage so I’d get treatment and rehab, afterwards I’d declare bankruptcy on the $6000 deductible and its all good.

As a (late) teenager I had a lucky ducky teenage girlfriend who broke her arm and she pretty much shrugged her (unbroken) shoulders at the ER bill which she never paid (it was hyperinflated as an uninsured person to be roughly the cost at the time of a house), but getting the cast removed was quite an ordeal. As an uninsured person you can get a cast put on for free, but getting it removed is (or at least was) a whole nother problem. Lots of teasing about how her boyfriend (me) was going to be stuck buying a saw.

I don’t think the 6K deductible on a $8K income is a valid plan for me in my 30s w/ wife and kids and seemingly monthly dr appointments. Then again a $8K/yr income isn’t any more reasonable for 30s me and my family.

My recollection is that Wal-mart and other floor-level retail jobs were never designed to be a benefit-laden career. Stocking and cashiering were what women did after the kids were old enough to latch-key, just to keep wife occupied and to bring in some extra cash in addition to hubby’s professional income.

Wal-mart and other floor-level retail jobs were never designed to be a benefit-laden career until benefit-laden careers were designed to disappear.

My recollection is that Wal-mart and other floor-level retail jobs were never designed to be a benefit-laden career

And my recollection is that there was a time in this country, say about 1945-1975, when there were jobs that paid living wages.

For Lucky Duckies in the year 2012, WalMart may be the only option (besides going on disability).

Wow, my company policy has an $8,000 family deductible.

I’m a lucky ducky indeed!

Hospitals used to consider most holders of high deductible policies to be essentially the same as not insured. Since most issues didn’t reach the price level where the policy would kick in, they got nothing from the HDinsured person plus their insurance company and nothing from the uninsured person.

Please note, this information is a few years old so that, as more and more middle class people have been forced into these policies, the hospitals may be having more luck getting paid for bills that don’t reach the level where the insurance kicks in.

I have an HD policy in conjunction with a HSA. So far I haven’t had any issues with getting service even before they know about the HSA.

I didn’t say they didn’t provide service. I said they considered the people to be the same as uninsured. The patients were treated and billed for services. The hospitals just didn’t expect to get much compensation beyond what they would get from a person without insurance. Not zero, just not likely to be the whole bill.

You should know that the people I was talking to about this issue were involved in Catholic hospital systems. They considered treating people who couldn’t pay to be a fundamental part of their business model.

I have a first world private quality health insurance plan in Brazil. Late 40’s. $10-20 co-pay. No deductible that I know of. It covers Hospital, Doctors, Dental, vision, mental health, substance abuse, acupuncture, counseling, homeopathic, tests, cat scans, etc How much? $135 a month at today’s exchange rate.

But wait…..It gets even better. When I cut my head on a Sunday when my private doctor was closed, I didn’t want to bother going to my private hospital across town so I went to the free “Che Guevara” community medical clinic where they patched me up for (drumroll) FREE! Pain pills? Free

My friend, an American Brazil resident like me, had a back that needed 3 smashed vertebrae fuzed in an 8 hour very serious operation. He had no insurance so he went to the local and huge “Joseph Stalin” Memorial Public hospital. Cat Scans, tests, 21 days in the hospital and the 8 hour operation. Oh, I forgot, plus followup tests and physical therapy Cost: (drumrolllllllllll) FREE
(but the walls were drab and the food sucked)

My kids all have retail jobs while working in college. They don’t get paid time off. Maybe WalMart gives its cashiers paid time off, but a lot of other places don’t.

Heck, at our local public library, the bottom rung on the ladder are known as “pages”. They typically work 15-20 hours a week and they are 100% unbenefitted.

I’ve worked many part time jobs, including burger flipper, stock boy, waiter, pizza delivery and cashier. I never got paid time off at any of those part-time jobs.

Maybe I was just lucky? Maybe my competition in the job market is just that generous?

It is.

I now work for a VLC (very large company) professional staffing agency and I don’t get ANY paid time off. Not sick days. Not even vacation.

I can take all the time I want, I just won’t get paid for it.

In fact, I haven’t seen a paid day off in 14 years.

“a VLC (very large company) professional staffing agency…”

The new meaning of being a “professional”?

For many, yes.

New? Not since the 1990s, no.

So, Andy, is that an admission that when you say “the majority of” you actually mean “a few instances that I personally know about”?

Turkey
What is the stats for temp to perm overall, especially in the Accounting or Finance sectors?
I read your industry has done well in this downturn. Do you think it is the new employee model going forward?

So, Andy, is that an admission that when you say “the majority of” you actually mean “a few instances that I personally know about”?

LOL. I call them ‘Bad Andy Facts’, and I was complaining about them yesterday.

I’m not saying he makes them up completely. But I don’t think he actually researches or verifies them. If it feels right, by golly he goes with it.

Don’t think you can’t still be lunch…

This Nations economic systems post War War 2 was built on
Employers paying for health care and other benefits given ,plenty of full time jobs and overtime given , vacation time given , cost of living raises being standard practice in a lot of industries ,cheaper college costs ,min.wage becoming more reasonable as well as working condition advancements ,etc. In fact, the War on Poverty was a National rah rah goal and major advancement was attempted with the War on inequality with race and ‘Women’s rights .” Borders were more protected

The trade deficit was sane and tariffs were charged . Competition was within the United States between Industries and the Stock market was something that took a smaller portion of the GNP.Banks made qualified loans
and actually made the people qualify for credit and they were seperated from Investment Banks ,as they should be
by Glass-Steagall Act. Monopolies were frowned on , and Government wasn’t as big. Manufacturing was big and Ma and Pop stores were numerous ,and everything was based on local economies ,not GLobalism .The main stream media was actually more balanced and wasn’t used so much for a PR platform for Political self interest groups.
There was the brainwashing of the population by advertisers to buy ,buy ,buy ,but there was more of a seperation of Advertisers for Products with Politcial
agenda . There was always the rah rah America theme ,and no doubt most Countries have themes like that also .
The middle class and the “Silent Majority”, that they use to call it ,were thriving and the America dream was actually
possible ,not hollow words like they are today .Hard work or creative work or invention ,or risk ,could actualy pay off in America and the rags to riches stories were actually possible . Education and Scientific advancement was held up as a worthy goal ,and we actually went to the Moon
if you don’t believe the stories that that was faked .Actually we just landed on Mars also .

China was viewed as a Commie Country that was better
left in their isolated stance ,until Nixon opened the box.
People didn’t even know that the Federal Reserve was a
Private Corporation of Bankers and I think most people thought that it was a division of the Government that was in charge of doing things for the good of America as a whole regarding interest rates and money supply . Social nets and SSI and welfare were developed ,but they were
mismanaged as time went on .

We did get into relying on foreign oil ( which was really really cheap ) but we also would drill here in America more .I admit that people were not as energy concious
because energy was cheap and abundant ,and that is a luxury that America can not take for granted anymore .
The American auto was a big Industry ,and post World War 2 the development of intrastructure was fueling many jobs .Other Countries no doubt were held back by the aftermath of World War 2 ,so we had a advantage there.
We became the envy of the World and we became a major consumer economy with all systems dependant on that theme song .We became more concious of pollution control and toxic waste ,but we did not advance enough
in those areas ,and mass transit hasn’t been developed as
much as it should of .

So ,I contend that you cannot do everything in your power to tear down those systems that were operational for so long and transfer the wealth to a smaller segment of the Population as well as increase Monopoly power and Globalism and Military without the most major upheavel
to the American Citizens .The Political lobby system is nothing more than the people with the wealth and power win ,never mind national security or promote the general welfare for the Citizens of USA ,and corruption has reached unacceptable levels ,and no longer is the “Rule of
Law” taken very serious . Justice is replaced by Bail Outs
and the picking of winners and losers .
The American people were not doing their job of watching the hen house either and they contributed to the problem
by having their own greed or fear or entitlement mentality
blind them to what was going on and the sort of hijacking of America that was going on ,but they were lied to repeatedly and really didn’t know what was going on in a lot of cases . They didn’t really understand the consequences of their acts because they were like dopers
just buying into the hype .

This was a long rant ,and I’m sorry for that ,so you can just skip over it if you don’t want to read it . I welcome being corrected on anything that I have said above ,because my interest is to understand what went wrong and what factors played into that . I really don’t believe that people
want poverty or freedoms taken away or low level lifestyles ,and I don’t really believe people favor War as a solution or being at the mercy of Madmen. It’s all about the BEEHIVE functioning in my view .

I’ve stated it here before, but Employer Paid Health Benefits came out of the price and wage freezes and labor shortages of WWII. Companies needed bodies as most of the eligible men were drafted for the war effort. Wages were frozen by the government, so in order to attract people from other employers/industries, employer-paid benefits were offered as a perk.

Prior to the 1940’s, this didn’t exist.

But the health care perk became a long term system,and this was the very thing that caused it to skyrocked out of control in costs along with all the other corruptions that took place .

Nice screed, Wiz, and in the spirit in which it was presented here are a few quibbles and questions:

…This Nations economic systems post War War 2 was built on
Employers paying for health care…

Health care benefits were not common until the mid-1960’s when Kaiser-type programs were implemented and Medicare (I.E.; the dreaded “socialized medicine”) passed during the Johnson Administration.

…cost of living raises being standard practice in a lot of industries…

Not until SS was pegged to the inflation index in the mid-1970’s.

…cheaper college costs…

Only for GI’s. They were proportionately expensive for everyone else. The State College system explosion in the 1980’s addressed the problem, though temporarily.

…min.wage becoming more reasonable…

Hardly. Same arguments about “living wages” then as now, and always a big political hot potato.

…Borders were more protected…

Nope. See: Bracero Program under Eisenhower, Farm Workers Union under Nixon, IRCA under Reagan (gov and pres)….

…The Political lobby system is nothing more than the people with the wealth and power win …and corruption has reached unacceptable levels ,and no longer is the “Rule of
Law” taken very serious . Justice is replaced by Bail Outs
and the picking of winners and losers….

How was this any different in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s?

…but they were lied to repeatedly and really didn’t know what was going on in a lot of cases . They didn’t really understand the consequences of their acts….

Again, Korea? Viet Nam? Iraq 1&2? Grenada? Kosovo? Covert overthrow of dozens of foreign governments for benefit of American corporations?

I contend that nothing “went wrong”. Our system (as all systems) is simply a function of too many people all pursuing their private interests– and was ever thus. Periodically we stop, reassess, and pull together for awhile to realign so we don’t derail and blow ourselves up, then we go back to our own insular pursuits.

Now is one of those times when we have a chance to reevaluate. Will we be as dramatic in that reinvention (and as successful) as PRC after Mao? Israel after WW2? The Evangelical Xtian movement post- Jimmy Carter?

Time will tell.

” …Borders were more protected…

Nope. See: Bracero Program under Eisenhower, Farm Workers Union under Nixon, IRCA under Reagan (gov and pres)….”

Maybe the borders didn’t need to be “protected” before the days of the Mexodus.

On the other hand …

When I lived in Mexico City in the 70’s , my dad had a few workers at his injection molding shop who tried their hand at being illegals. According to them being caught and sent back was a common experience, so much so that they gave up trying.

ahansen …..my span of time I spoke of was broad and covered about a 40 year period without being specific to the exact inceptions of “systems ” . There was also some development in systems that go back even further to the early part of the 19th Century ,but the big surge in middle class advancement was post World War 2,IMHO .

I know that argiculture was the starting point for a lot of the influx of illegals ,but the growth of illegal immigration took on greater and greater numbers as time went on with less enforcement . But if you compared how they did immigration in the 20 and 30’s and 40’s ,there is no comparsion to the way it is now and has been for the last 20 years or so years .

Don’t underestimate how many Gi’s used the college benefits, but the inflation on College costs went off the charts and it was fueled by the easy credit factor also .

But I think everyone can agree that the Standard of living for the middle class rose the most between 1948 and 1985,and it can be directly pegged to greater benefits and wages from the Employers ,combined with plentiful jobs and more of a closed economic system .We had greater
protection that we didn’t have to compete with World
slave labor and the issue wasn’t even discussed because it wasn’t a issue during the growth years . it’s bad enough to have to compete with your own fellow Countrymen let alone the whole exploited World .

We actually had the luxury to work on racial issues and
women rights issues ,which is usually what happens when a Society has been uplifted out of extreme class systems .

In the 90’s they jailed Bankers( about 3 thousand ) for lessor crimes than what took place this last lending crime spree ,and most people would agree that the ‘Rule Of Law ” is a joke these days .They didn’t give Bail Outs to Bankers/Investment firms after the Great Stock Market crash of 1929 and many a rich person went down the tubes with the Country ,rather than being protected during that meltdown .Nobody can say that the trillions of dollars in
Bail Outs of different forms that took place recently were
something that has ever been done to this level ,with no one being held responsible along with the BS of we need to
save Wall Street and the Banks so Main Street can thrive .

THe upper 15 % paid much higher taxes for many of the years following World War 2 ,but that was slowly taken away until we have the lower levels of today .

Of course everyone was in pursuit of their own interest as you suggest ,but how that is regulated and how fair that is
goes a long way toward how the distribution of the weath
will end up .Taxes go a long way toward influencing that
distribution ,as well as interest rates ,tariffs ,money supply etc.

But the evidence of that period I spoke of in American history being more favorable to the middle class by the factors I broadly spoke about is confirmmed by the fact that America did thrive when the conditions were present that I spoke of ,no matter how much you think things were the same all along . THe evidence of the stability of our financial system and job base and tax revenue base is clear until these last decades. Wall Street was tied into Main Street USA ,not decoupled from it like what is occurring today . The manufacturing and job loss to this Country is staggering verses the Golden years I speak of .

But ,I admit I’m a broad stroker when I write ,more of looking at the forest type thinker I guess . But ,I’m also a person that went through a lot of the modern history of
America after World War 2 ,and nothing is greater than
recall of how it really was .

“…and nothing is greater than
recall of how it really was ….”

+1, and perhaps why I’m so vehement about correcting historical misperceptions written by people who weren’t even there.
Keep the faith, Wiz!

People have been trying to get national health insurance at least since Teddy Roosevelt ran with it on his plank and lost. His cousin FDR later wanted to implement it, but decided to focus on Social Security instead, as the unions wanted the perk to be connected with employment. Truman then tried and failed after that.

LOL. Can’t dispute the facts, so the liberals…..

LOL? I don’t think you’re really laughing. I don’t. I think you’re faking it and your LOL’s and your yapping dog strawman posts indicate you are a bit nervous. Here’s a funny article and video about another fake laugh when someone is nervous.

Mitt Romney’s Terrible Laugh

It’s wince-inducing, and most often deployed when the former Massachusetts governor is lying.

Some public figures get defined by a single image, or a single statement (”Ask not what your country can do for you”; “I am not a crook”). Others have a characteristic linguistic tic or hand gesture that through repetition come to embody them; think of Ronald Reagan’s head shake, George W. Bush’s shoulder-shimmy, or that closed-fist-with-thumb-on-top thing Bill Clinton used to do.

For Mitt Romney, it’s the laugh. I’m sure that at times Romney laughs with genuine mirth, but you know the laugh I’m talking about. It’s the one he delivers when he gets asked a question he doesn’t want to answer, or is confronted with a demand to explain a flip-flop or a lie. It’s the phoniest laugh in the world, the one New York Times reporter Ashley Parker wrote “sounds like someone stating the sounds of laughter, a staccato ‘Ha. Ha. Ha.’”

Everything Mitt Romney is as a candidate is distilled within that laugh—his insincerity, his ambition, his awkwardness, and above all his fear. When Mitt laughs that way, he is not amused. He is terrified. Because he knows that what he’s saying is utter baloney, and he knows that we know it.

http://prospect.org/article/mitt-romneys-terrible-laugh

More like the young girls turned on by Ryan’s looks? Kinda like the old guys turned on by Sister Sarah?

November 7th is going to be so much fun.

And there’s money to be made if you’re correct. Current casino odds:

Obama 4-11

Romney 2-1

like the young girls turned on by Ryan’s looks?

http://www.gay.net/health-fitness/2012/08/13/why-everyone-wants-see-paul-ryan-shirtless

Washington Examiner? Didnt that the paper that sponsored one of the Republican debates last year?

Very well then, NOT just the young girls. I heard that Ryan’s blue eyes are much in demand among the alternative lifestyles too.

It never ceases to amaze me when I watch slavering Republicans and Democrats tearing each other’s throats out, bragging about how THEIR crooked idiot candidate is less of an idiot than YOUR crooked idiot candidate. Helluva choice there, kids. I also love how both parties- who are supposed to be so drastically different- both warn the same thing whenever a third political party is mentioned: “You’ll just be throwing your vote away!!”

“You’ll just be throwing your vote away!!”

I couldn’t be more proud, for the first time in my life, of doing just that. For once, I’ll be voting my true conscience.

Why reply to a post that discussed the details of the funding reductions to Medicare with nationwide poll numbers for 18 to 29 year olds? Seriously, what does one have to do with the other?

[Consider repeated, the truism about the election not being a nationwide contest.]

Post was in reply to this:

Romney/Ryan are evil white guys that want to throw grandma off the cliff just before she dies of starvation.

When in reality, it’s the Dem’s that don’t care about grandma.

And yes, Paul Ryan is gay.

Res ipsa loquitur, Bronco. But every now and then we have to remind those who habitually forget to include them in their posts.

Understood, but the repetitive phraseology is mind-numbing and torturous.

For most people it makes more sense to pay the fine than to obey the mandate.

After you pay your fine you are still without coverage.

But there is more to it than that. “Most” people will be able to buy from a mandated pool if they can’t afford retail.

Now they have coverage and don’t have to pay the fine.

There is no way everyone will ever be covered, but it will take a BIG chunk out of the “not covered” group that now exists.

My personal anecdote is that I know 3 people who can now afford insurance that couldn’t before. 3 people who desperately needed it. 3 people who have a better chance of living and not being a burden on the tax system.

I am seeing crowded Hospital waiting rooms and Doctors offices . Health care reform was determined and based on a assumption of what the unemployment rate would be ,
what the overall consumption in the USA would be (which will go down ),and other facts like that .There will be more than 30 million prior uninsured that need the discount program and there will be less people holding up the end that is suppose to be the “able to afford ” portion .
I think we should ask China to contribute to our health care at this point .

The fact that we pay 50% more than other Western medical care Countries will be the overall cracking of the back ,coupled with the increase of the screwing of the middle class out of jobs and decent wages . Like someone was mentioning about Industry making sure they hire part time to screw people out of benefits .

Don’t you think that Health Bill was designed to actually increase the profits of the parasites of the Medical Business ? I will never forget the line ,”We have to pass the Bill to see what’s in it .”

I want a singer payer system with a overhaul on the costs and corruptions .Or, I want a total private system that will collaspe the system as it should collaspe from the weight of gouging and corruption and Monopoly price fixing .
After all the Medical system wasn’t based on supply and demand and true capitalism anyway . The Pharma Industry
profits are absurd and uncalled for . The insurance company profits are uncalled for also ,providers are riding the wave .

People say that this Bill puts us on the path of being able to get a single payer system that is sustainable ,but nothing is going to be sustainable if those overall costs stay high . No justification for the rise in health care cost
that can only be explained by price fixing monopoly powers
and a bleeding of the Medicare government funded cash cow .The people didn’t call the shot on the system because for years the darn employer paid for it ,or the government paid with Medicare allowing the system to
skyrocket 50% more in costs than it should of . They gave you the BS of research costs being high ,or equipment costing a lot ,or cancer cures that don’t cure being costly ,
or lawsuits on doctors being the main culprit , or pre-existing coditions being the culprit ,but never the main reasons .All BS that it will be the pathway to single pay ,they will never allow that . it won’t work ,the people are tapped out to much .

After you pay your fine you are still without coverage.</i

Why should I pay for someone else’s emergency room care? They should have eaten right and exercised.

By making Medicare a so-called useless insurance?

The hospitals consider high deductible plans to be useless - at least they used to a few years ago. The people who had them couldn’t afford to pay the deductible, so the only time the hospital got any compensation at all was if the care provided exceeded the deductible.

Medicare has 20% required co-pays which the hospital might not get if the senior doesn’t have a supplemental plan and doesn’t have the money to pay, but at least they don’t have to provide $6000 of care before getting a penny.

Pardon me, the only time they got compensation beyond what they would expect to get from an uninsured person, not any compensation at all. At the time the only people in the HD policies were fairly low income so they didn’t expect to get much if anything. As the policies creep into use for higher compensated employees, they are probably getting a bit more.

The very poor who aren’t undocumented often have access to Medicaid and aren’t uninsured, though the compensation is less than private insurance or Medicare.

You think I can get $100,000.00 deductible policy at 5 bucks a month to satisfy the requirment to have insurance ?

Funny how Mr. Romney never wants to reveal the details, whether it be which “tax loopholes” he’ll eliminate, what’s really on those secret tax returns or how he’ll “fix” Medicare.

Hey President Obama people if you’re reading. This is a very important point that Pres Obama can really hammer home during the debates.

Romney is a pig in a poke. Romney is buying a house without an inspection. Is Romney behind door #1 or #2?

Obama is short on details as well. He also can’t run on his record.

This is a choice between two bad politicians and it’s why I’ll be voting 3rd party.

Funny how Mr. Romney never wants to reveal the details ??

Well sure….He is king etch-a-sketch…Pull Ryan on to the ticket and then suggest that you may propose something different…Keep the ball moving….

Is Romney behind door #1 or #2? ??

Spot on with this guy…..

You guys need to stop reading all the “information” put out my “mainstream” news organizations, who are really just part of the Democratic base.
Obama hasn’t past a single budget,not because the Republicans have stopped it, because the SENATE all votes 100% against any proposed budgets.
Also, Obama’s budget’s when not proposed in the Senate, don’t have any details, either.
Obama has gotten away with “passing” dozens of executive orders and working with the Attorney General to lawsuit his way around following the law and instead, buying votes for his “base”.
the latest outrage is trying to disenfranchise military voters, because military personnel tend to vote conservative.
Do the illegal aliens who he just wrote an executive order to provide green cards get to vote, too.
legally, no, but i’m sure there all lots of behind the scenes machinations to get them all ‘registered’, if they aren’t already.

“Obama has gotten away with “passing” dozens of executive orders…”

Bingo. He was one of those howling when GWB did it.

My concern with Romney is:

1) His promises to close loopholes will only affect the middle class, who will pay more taxes while the rich will pay even less.

2) His medicare reform will gut the system, replacing it with vouchers that won’t be enough to even cover an HD plan

“You guys need to stop reading all the “information” put out my “mainstream” news organizations, who are really just part of the Democratic base.”

I can’t tell if this is snark or you really believe this.

‘…the latest outrage is trying to disenfranchise military voters because they tend to vote conservative….”

Wait a minute. I thought we were disenfranchizing minority voters because they tend to vote Democratic.

You only have 2 concerns Colorado? If I only had 2 concerns about either man I might vote for one of them.

LOL! These ones are the ones applicable to this thread. I have all kinds of misgivings about Romney (and Obama too)

“He also can’t run on his record.”

- Got Bin Laden.

- Got us out of Iraq (mostly).

- Got us out of the Great Recession.

Yep — complete failure, and I am sure a Republicant wouldn’t have made any of these mistakes.

So why would you be so upset by this?

Because its a lie. $700B is cut from compensation to providers nothing is cut from services. There is already a trend where fewer providers accept medicare after adding a $700B cut then it is logical to conclude that the trend will continue and accelerate. You can’t cut that much money without cutting services.

The other part of the lie is that purported savings are counted twice.

Only if you define “providers” as HMOs. Next.

ahansen,

I am not upset by it, I am stating a fact.

The Obama team (the Prez, Biden, assorted Dem politicians and most of the Main Stream Media) will be attacking Romney’s choice of Ryan. At this point their main point of attack was thought to be Ryan’s plan to rescue Medicare. Have you heard the ads about throwing grandma over the cliff, starving senior citizens, and killing them even?

Question: If Obamacare is allowed to be enacted on 1/1/2013, it is already set up to cut Medicare by more than $700B. So how hard is it going to be to show the senior citizens who really wants to cut Medicare??? Obama or the RR team?

My service to you liberal/progressive folks was to give you a heads up, that’s all. I do not hate you guys. For some reason I think it’s important that we all learn to discuss this stuff without resorting to a bunch of name calling.

Also, the next two months are going to be fun to watch.

When you post stuff like this:

“…And these cuts are of the worst kind. They are arbitrary and across the board. They reduce reimbursement rates for all who provide services to Medicare patients, regardless of how well or badly they treat their patients….”

Then say:

“…So let me get this right. Romney/Ryan are evil white guys that want to throw grandma off the cliff just before she dies of starvation. When in reality, it’s the Dem’s that don’t care about grandma….”

Don’t be surprised when someone calls you on it. Especially when you’re spreading political spin and misinformation they’ve already corrected.

“…I think it’s important that we all learn to discuss this stuff without resorting to a bunch of name calling….”

+1.

wwhbd?

Amazon already sends out groupon-like offers. I get one every day. I even used one once (it was free and gave me a few bucks to use to buy Amazon MP3s).

Prediction:

I shop almost exclusively online, and I spend, compared to most consumers, a tremendous amount of money online. I’ve been a member of Groupon pretty much from the beginning. I’ve NEVER bought a single thing from them, because, in all the times they send me coupons, it’s never been for something I particularly want.

I’m also a very careful shopper. I often buy coupons from Ebay and use them online and at local stores (Lowes and HD being the biggest, a 2 dollar coupon can save you up to 500 dollars a shot at either of them).

For example, I just checked my e-mail for the last Groupon deals. Here’s what they sent me on Monday:

73% off foot reflexology massages
90% off laser hair removal
94% off Yoga
58% off custom facials
57% off dog spa bath

WTH do you expect me to do with this Groupon. I’m a male, and I don’t have a dog.

I actually got curious, the only thing they’ve ever sent me that I might actually use is some vacation packages. But I generally distrust that idea (package vacations) so I doubt I’ll ever use it.

Now, I just looked at my Amazon history. Over the last 90 days I have almost 30 orders. Lots of books (Kindle). Lots of stuff. And LOTS of money. That’s a business that has a model, Groupon is a “fad”. It has almost no barrier to entry, and, most importantly, they don’t sell stuff that most people want to impulse buy.

Prediction. Worthless in 24-36 months.

Angie’s List has a similar program called The Big Deal.

The phrase “total compensation” is ALWAYS used to incite and provoke.

Or mislead and propagandize in the case of the “total compensation” paperwork they always gave us in the army to show us how crazy we’d be to get out. Some of us didn’t realize we were upper middle class in the army until they showed us.

Great example.

OK, so the average Stockton employee is pulling down $100k in salary.

It seems too much no matter how you slice up the pie. I mean I can see the city management, all depts, getting something like that, but there are a lot of lesser workers.

If they were in San Francisco or Newport Beach this amount of money would be understandable, but Stockton?

Total compensation is the amount tax payers have to pay.

I am a little shocked about Stockton being that high .

All costs seem high now in light of the real estate crash .

I think they know that and just want to squeeze in as many goodies as possible in good times, and then they just shrug their shoulders later - “nobody could see it coming.”

Many of these sites are already not generating tax revenue. Giving tax breaks ensures there will be some tax revenue. I’ve witnessed county government gone wild in beautiful Palm Beach County. Budget shortfalls are not because of tax breaks designed to attract business.

I’m certainly not saying that many local gov. were not irresponsible. They absolutely were. Criminally.

But million dollar tax breaks didn’t help either. Tax breaks that could not be offset by $12hr jobs.

It’s not Obama’s fault.

It is not Obama’s fault. Think big and beyond your Obama fixation. USA’s economy has a STRUCTURAL problem. The structural problem has eliminated millions of good jobs. The structural problem was caused by 32 years of “all-for-the-rich” public policies. Obama did not institute any important supply-side policies that caused this structural problem.

” Obama did not institute any important supply-side policies that caused this structural problem.”

Yes, but we elected him to fix that immediately.

Obama did not institute any important supply-side policies that caused this structural problem.”

Yes, but we elected him to fix that immediately.

Fix immediately? That is politically impossible. The GOP would not even let the tax cuts on just the rich expire.

Sorry, I should have indicated my sarcasm

Sorry, I should have indicated my sarcasm

Well it was great sarcasm because I am seeing posts that out of touch with reality all over the internet. (But they’re serious!) lol

At what point do you expect a similar “Resolution” corporation to be established for the current bust?

Three years ago.

Nice, Carl.

Give her something by Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil?) so she can see where Rand cribbed much of her philosophy, and how she got it wrong.

“Beyond Good and Evil?”

I’d be afraid to give her my copy of THAT book. Besides, it is one of the few non-work-related books I ever read from time to time…

Fundies believe they are exempt from the judgement day scenario. They believe they can kick the “least of them” in the nutz and will still be welcomed into the kingdom.

Mormons,Christian Scientists and Episcopalians seem to be Calvin’s latter-day heirs.

“Private schools aren’t beholden to Unions, hence private school compensation is often lower than public schools.”

Actually, in our Archdiocese, it was mandated by the Archbishop that they be paid the same as local public school teachers.

“Private schools are not beholden to State or Federal education mandates. ”

They are in my neck of the woods.

“The issue with Honors classes is grade inflation, which is rampant. The problem with AP classes is that most school systems focus on the number of students who took AP classes as a performance metric. The issue is that too few are scoring a satisfactory grade on AP and ACT tests”

Apparently not in our school district.I have heard of stories of kids in inner city schools taking the AP tests and failing, but in our little burg they do quite well.

Why is it that parents who have disabled children or children with learning disabilities can have the school system absorb the cost of special education?

Well, it MIGHT just be that with a bit of extra time and attention, these kids can grow up to be productive members of society.

Case in point: I just finished listening to Jim Abbott’s audiobook, Imperfect. Recall that Abbott pitched a no-hitter when he played for the Yankees. Guy only has one complete arm.

While he was a child, he spent time in a hospital for disabled children. One day, he saw a very well dressed lady push her child into the hospital, then turn and leave him there. It was as if she was dropping off a sack of garbage.

Abbott’s parents had him when they were both teenagers and not married yet. They thought that after Jim was born, that his less-than-perfect body might be some sort of punishment from God.

But then they realized that Jim was, well, Jim. So, why not just raise him like any old kid and see what happened?

Very early in life, he showed quite an interest in sports. The family lived in a sports town, Flint, Michigan, so there were plenty of opportunities for Jim there.

Oh, and did I mention that one of Jim’s grade school teachers, who was also disabled, took the boy aside one day and exclaimed that he’d figured it out. What was it? Well, it was a method that Jim could use for tying his shoes.

One more thing: Jim Abbott was a public school kid all the way through. And he spent three years at the home of my beloved Michigan Wolverines before turning pro as a baseball player.

The same reason we pay (or not as the case may be) to make sure insane people aren’t roaming the streets and movie theaters with guns.

Then you are comparing apples and oranges. Of course parochial schools do better. They start with better students. And if you can’t afford parochial there are charter schools out here, which curiously are full of LDS kids.

‘if you don’t vote, you have no right to complain when things don’t go your way’

Oh yeah? Here’s a news flash; I’ll complain any damn time I want!

This message was approved by Donald Duck.

“When you vote Ron Paul, you are essentially not voting.”

In that case I’ll have to vote for Obama. There’s no way I’m voting for Gordon Gekko.

Oh, an it turns out that Romney isn’t all that pro life either.

http://ncronline.org/news/politics/which-presidential-candidate-truly-pro-life

“But let’s not stop there. Obama does not financially profit from the abortion industry. Romney does. Bain Capital, in the time Romney was listed as its legal head and even when he was attending Bain board meetings, was an owner of Stericycle, a major disposer of the dead bodies of aborted children in the United States.”

I guess it was OK though, since it generated a profit.

When you vote Ron Paul, you are essentially not voting. Therefore if you don’t vote, you have no right to complain

This is one of the dumbest things Smithers has said today.

When you vote Ron Paul, you are essentially not voting. Therefore if you don’t vote, you have no right to complain when things don’t go your way. This goes for all people who vote for fringe 3rd parties,

What happens if you vote for the losing mainstream party?

People who feel this way are the problem. If people voted for the person they thought was the best candidate instead of political party we likely wouldn’t have the mess that we have today. The two major parties and the politicians who associate with them are bad news.

I contend that voting for the shrink wrapped clowns offered to us by the power brokers is not voting at all. Voting for anyone else is a message to the NY-DC club that business as usual doesn’t satisfy.

“This is one of the dumbest things Smithers has said today.”

Must’ve been quite a feat!

Sequestration would be the best thing that could happen to this country right now.

Hey, we agree!

Frequently. Just not always on the same implementations.

No, Racism® is a trademarked brand name of Race Hustlers, Inc®.

White liberals who fear they may be perceived as Racist® because they live in a lily-white, bobos-in-paradise locale like Boulder or Ann Arbor can immunize against accusations of Racism® by displaying a COEXIST sticker on their vehicle.

Oh man…I heard you guys talking about them but I didn’t realize *I* needed one.

Seriously? Those COEXIST bumper stickers are about race relations? Honestly thought they were an anti-war response that came about post 9-11 during the run-up to Iraq 2 when everyone was wearing their patriotism like those little made-in-China flags on their SUV.

Ain’t never seen one-a-’em in the whole of Kern Kounty.

ahansen:

Ok so what would it be calling Sharpton a black racist because he would never apologize to the white duke Lacrosse players?

Or only calling out the difference between Blacks and Ebonic hood rats?

Or does Racism lose it meaning when there is no political correctness anymore?

——–
That would be cultural dissonance. Racism is where you make sweeping categorizations about a people on the basis of their race with intent to antagonize and belittle them.

‘how does an illegal immigrant get into the military’

30 seconds on google find this:

‘How many of these young Latino recruits are illegal immigrants? “Nobody knows,” says Flavia Jimenez, an immigration policy analyst at the National Council of La Raza. “But what we do know is that recruiters may not be up to speed on everybody’s legal status. … We also know that a significant number of [illegals] have died in Iraq.” The recruitment of illegal immigrants is particularly intense in Los Angeles, where 75 percent of the high school students are Latino. “A lot of our students are undocumented,” says Arlene Inouye, a teacher at Garfield High School in East Los Angeles, “and it’s common knowledge that recruiters offer green cards.” Inouye is the coordinator and founder of the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools (CAMS), a counter-recruitment organization that educates teenagers about deceptive recruiting practices. “The practice is pretty widespread all over the nation,” she says, “especially in California and Texas. … The recruiters tell them, ‘you’ll be helping your family.’

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3271/

‘The administration plan is to stop deporting many illegal immigrants who were brought to the U.S. as children. To be eligible, immigrants must prove they arrived in the United States before they turned 16, are 30 or younger, have been living here at least five years and are in school or graduated or served in the military.’

http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_21318570/u-s-launches-program-give-illegal-immigrants-work

You mean you don’t have to show a DL and a birth certificate to enlist?

During the heyday of Iraq2, billboards along Central California’s Hwys 58 and 99, and all the recruiting stations in the strip malls of Bakersfield sported these huge banners that read– and I’m quoting here:

“YO SOY EL ARMY”

If they get you a green card, you aren’t illegal anymore.

Dammit! It would have been funnier if it weren’t my dyslexia today and the redundant “the”.

Who the hell is writing my sentences?

Sheesh. Dyslexic day, I guess.

Massive losses on housing at current inflated asking prices…….. Massive

There it is right there, the S&L model.

With the cost of food, gas and the general cost of living going down, with general employment and wages reaching for new highs, with government running ample surplusses and reducing taxes, with all of that, rents have nowhere to go but up!

Whoever you are referring to, “he” is compromised by the bribes and influence of the money centers. “He” presides over a congress that is compromised in the same way.

Why is it that people so adore their abusers?

I hope you have a lot of buckets.

Snort

Do you think that the Fed has stopped easing one tiny little bit?

President Obama will stimulate the business sector !

QE 3 would be almost useless - except to help maintain status quo.

“Do you think that the Fed has stopped easing one tiny little bit?”

Days like today certainly suggest someone is propping up Wall Street share prices. I have no way to determine whether it is the Fed or some other bailout entity who is propping up the U.S. headline indexes.

We’re going to see who makes it from the RV park to 7-11 first.

Ya know…I noticed the 55+ community has some sweet curvy sidewalks. They’d be great for trading paint. We could consider going upscale…

Dude…. check out my rig man… I’m rollin’ on a pair of 20″ chromes.

When are we gonna race?

http://www.webandgraphicservices.com/images/DSC03499.jpg

Uh oh…that looks fast. Ummm, mine’s making a funny sound I gotta look at first. I’ll come find you when it’s running right again.

Or Chinese real estate mavens.

Only three states in the country have double digit unemployment rates…

1) Nevada
2) Rhode Island
3) California

Why buy a house in one of these economic dead zones? You’re going to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Who can afford to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Houses depreciate.

Nonsense Rental Pimp….

Us Population growth from 2000-2010 is the lowest in recorded history.

And worse yet for you housing pimps in the Land of Fruits and Nuts, California population growth is even less than the national population growth.

See for yourself….

http://tinyurl.com/cxke54z

So answer this question…..

Why are you lying to the public about housing?

Do the math (from your link):

CA Population grew from 33.988 million in July 2000 to 37.6919 million in July 2010, for an overall increase of 3.7039 million, or 10.9%.

The US Population (which includes CA) grew from 282.1624 million in July 2000 to 311.5919 in July 2010, for an overall increase of 29.4295, or 10.4%.

Roughly the same rate of growth (CA actually grew a bit faster than the US as a whole).

The RATE of growth for the US population WAS the lowest on records. You are correct.

However, the AGGREGATE growth in population (number of people, not rate) was no where close to the lowest in recorded history.

Why are you lying?

You’re a LIAR.

California population growth is the lowest in that states history….. and FALLING.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California#Population