When People Become Irrational
An opinion piece from the Toronto Star. “I’m often asked, ‘When is the right time to buy a home?’ Conventional wisdom says, ‘Sell high, buy low.’ I say, ‘Buy now to buy low.’ Toronto is in a unique economic real estate situation: constantly rising demand and constantly falling supply. When these two lines cross — as they’re doing right now — only one thing can happen: prices rise. We’ve seen this happen in Toronto for the last 16 consecutive years. My message to you today is about today, because right now is the time to buy real estate in Toronto. The future — whether it’s next year or next decade, or longer — can only bring higher housing prices. Buy real estate in the GTA now.”
The Vancouver Sun. “When sales launch at 9 a.m. today for the 443 homes in Intra-corp’s MC 2 project, the development community throughout the Vancouver area will be watching closely. Marketer Bob Rennie, who has been spearheading the project’s sale campaign, believes that up to 60 per cent of the condos will be snapped up by the end of the day. Predictions that don’t seem particularly over the top, given that the number of registrants is significantly higher - on a per-day basis - than the number who registered months ago for another project in the immediate neighbourhood: Marine Gateway. In the four months before its launch last March, 11,000 people registered interest in the 415 homes in Marine Gateway. All were bought within four hours on opening day.”
“‘The city has been talking about affordability,’ Rennie says. ‘Here, there are 230 homes under $350,000. That’s when you really start to look at affordability.’”
The Financial Post. “Panic is the worst thing that could happen because when that mentality sets in and people become irrational, it’s hard to forecast how low prices will go, says Benjamin Tal, deputy chief economist at Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. In the second quarter of this year, the debt-to-income ratio rose to 163.4% from 161.8% in the previous quarter. He worries the wrong message is getting out. ‘The distraction of [hearing about these debt levels] is more of a concern than the debt,’ he says.”
From MetroNews. “Like many middle-income couples, James Harwood and his wife had almost no savings when they bought their first house, in Cambridge, for $180,000. The year was 2008. The housing market was booming. Interest rates were low. Mortgage money was cheap and lenders required little or no down payment. After years of renting, they took the plunge. ‘My wife really wanted to own her own place. And there’s the whole idea of building equity,’ Harwood said. ‘The actual cost of the mortgage, with taxes and stuff, was so within the margin of what we were paying for rent anyways, it didn’t make any sense not to try.’”
“But within months, Harwood’s wife fell ill and was off work. A part-time nurse, she had no sick leave or benefits. Even though Harwood’s job as a warehouse manager for a public utility was secure, they quickly fell behind in their payments. Within a year and a half, they’d lost the house, which after legal fees and other expenses left them with $70 in their pockets. Harwood said he reads about rising household debt levels and wonders how other people manage. ‘I hear and see people maxing themselves out all the time and I wonder what it’s going to be like for these guys down the road.’”
“Yet Canadians continue to pile it on. Ironically, one of the key reasons household debt is high is the Bank of Canada’s policy of keeping interest rates low. They’ve been at or below 1 per cent for the past four years. ‘It’s one of the most common things we see. When you have little or no savings — almost half of Canadians are living paycheque to paycheque — and you lose your job, or take a reduction in income, that can be devastating to any household budget,’ said Jeffrey Schwartz, executive director of Consolidated Credit Counseling Services of Canada.”
“‘The housing boom had a secondary impact on borrowing, as homeowners borrowed against the rising value to make other purchases, from renovations to investments to vacations. ‘Your income isn’t going up, but the value of your house is, so you use it like an ATM and borrow against it,’ said Armine Yalnizyan, a senior economist with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.”
From Global Toronto. “Toronto is in the midst of a building boom, with 147 highrises and skyscrapers under construction. There are more than double the condos under construction as New York City, and more than all major U.S. cities combined. Jim Grimes is a real estate buying veteran. He sees a correction coming and beyond that, an opportunity. ‘I think we’ve hit a point where saturation has come… I’m kind of setting myself up right now to be ready. I’m getting calls back from agents saying they’ve dropped the price by $50K and (they’re asking if) am I interested in getting it at that price.’”
From MoneyVille. “Toronto condo developers are seeing a dramatic downturn in investor interest in new projects — more than 30 to 40 per cent in just the last few months — as the condo market cools. ‘The golden era of highrise condos is turning to bronze,’ says long-time real estate consultant Barry Lyon.”
“Some developers are quietly talking about a 50 per cent downturn as investors, who have fuelled much of Toronto’s condo boom over the last five years, head for the sidelines, where Lyon expects they could stay for at least six months. ‘I think 2013 will be the year of incentives. The industry is going to be doing everything it can to persuade investors to come back,’ he says.”
The Montreal Gazette. “Montreal condo sellers will need to show greater patience and willingness to negotiate price, real estate agencies say, after the resale market gradually lost ‘momentum’ to declining sales and rising inventory during the third quarter of 2012. ‘What’s concerning us with the condos is the supply,’ said Dominic St-Pierre, director, Quebec region at Royal LePage, who is expecting a two- to three-per-cent dip in median prices during the last quarter of 2012. ‘You cannot have an excess of supply without there being an impact on prices.’”
“With the condo market shifting from one that favours sellers to balanced, St-Pierre said owners will have to be more amenable to negotiating price with buyers. ‘People are still expecting to see multiple offers,’ St-Pierre said. ‘That’s not something that’s happening in the market right now.’”
The Bowen Island Undercurrent, “A news release from the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver (REBGV) states that ‘conditions continue to favour buyers in the Greater Vancouver housing market.’ REBGV reports that residential property sales of detached, attached and apartment properties in the region reached 1,516 in September, a 32.5 per cent decline compared to the 2,246 sales in September 2011 and an 8.1 per cent decline compared to August 2012. For Bowen Island, the percentages dropped 1.9 per cent compared to September 2011 and 0.6 per cent compared to August.”
“The benchmark price for a detached property on Bowen is currently $590,200. But does that mean that this is a good time to invest in property? Bowen Islander Hans Merkelbach has been involved in financial services and he’s managed other people’s money for all his working life. Merkelbach says that most people in Canada have invested everything in their homes. ‘Real estate in the Greater Vancouver area and elsewhere in B.C. as well as other major cities in Canada such as Toronto, Montreal and Winnipeg are slowly imploding,’ Merkelbach says. ‘In Vancouver, the average price of a single family dwelling a few months ago was over $1 million. To compare that, the average in Toronto is $850,000. People are maxed out and many have real estate with 95 per cent mortgages on it.’”
“Merkelbach doesn’t know how this will affect Bowen Island but believes that the market will also come down. Recently, a high-waterfront home sold for $950,000 - $300,000 below the assessed value. ‘The 2012 assessments were based on run-away prices, in other words, they were at their highest point ever,’ he said, adding that he appealed his property assessment and had it reduced substantially. Merkelbach knows of several people who had their assessment reduced in an effort to pay a lower (and a more realistic) property tax.”
Ok. A few questions. There had got to be MORE to this story.
1. Since the cost of renting and owning were about the same - bad things would have happened anyways. In fact, it probably takes longer to kick someone out of their home than to kick a renter out for non payment.
2. Always a good idea to have SOME savings.
3. This is Canada. Why the sob story of medical issues and expenses for losing a house? I thought Canadians have that all under control.
4. Just HOW close to the edge were they when/if a part time position falls through for the wife but the husband’s full time job is secure?
———————
Harwood said. ‘The actual cost of the mortgage, with taxes and stuff, was so within the margin of what we were paying for rent anyways, it didn’t make any sense not to try.’”
“But within months, Harwood’s wife fell ill and was off work. A part-time nurse, she had no sick leave or benefits. Even though Harwood’s job as a warehouse manager for a public utility was secure, they quickly fell behind in their payments.
I was thinking along the same lines. What story?
Rent=house payment. No pay. Out you go.
But, oh, they lost the house.
But, wait, prices were going up dramatically. They should have sold at a profit.
Then we see it : “medical expenses” and lack of income. But your point is the best:
3. This is Canada. Why the sob story of medical issues and expenses for losing a house? I thought Canadians have that all under control.
Let’s get Rio to explain it to us. His continual rants about healthcare in America compared to Sweden, Canada, Germany, or England or Cuba, is that we have the woRST in the world, and if only we had Canadian “healthcare” then all our problems would be solved and no one would ever lose their house because of medical bills and no one would ever have to pay a premium or be denied for pre-existing conditions, and all the world would be wonderful with government run medical care.
I’ve met LOTS of Canadians here in Florida that use the US medical system rather than wait for treatment back home. We have regular Winter home-makers from Canada in my part of the state. The mythology of better, cheaper medical care is just that. A nice story.
My personal opinion is that we should have both options. Most of the world has both options (including Europe).
1. Public run health care. Nearly “free” but you get what you pay for. Long waits. Shared hospital rooms. Take it or leave it medical advice. No one will die in the streets but don’t expect high end technology either.
2. Private option. Insurance. You get what you pay for. True competition. Prices very reasonable.
Works for most of the world.
1. Public run health care…..2. Private option. Insurance…..Works for most of the world.
That’s what Brazil has. I’d rather be uninsured in Brazil than America because Brazil’s public health-care, although flawed, is way better than being uninsured in America and even better than some of America’s “joke” insurance.
The public system in Brazil also acts as a natural check on the private-care prices. If my private insurance passed a certain price point, I’d dump it and go with the longer line and older technology public system.
The public system in Brazil also acts as a natural check on the private-care prices. If my private insurance passed a certain price point, I’d dump it and go with the longer line and older technology public system.
Yup. I think that’s the piece we’re missing to keep a lid on prices…and to be able to take care of those who would otherwise go to the emergency room for free more cheaply.
+1 nanerz.
Though I’d take issue with the “very reasonable” part until the public health system becomes viable.
Canada’s health insurance doesn’t cover loss of income.
“Benefits” includes sick leave/vacation/PTO pay.
It’s entirely possible that someone could run into problems paying the mortgage, even if they had health insurance coverage.
It’s typical that someone would have to explain this to the Faux News cult.
Health care in the US is great, IF you have good employee provided insurance. It sucks if you don’t.
Either way, we aren’t getting our money’s worth.
Exactly. Nothing in that clip implied it was paying for treatment that was the problem. Even with health insurance, you can’t work if you are sick.
Let’s get Rio to explain it to us.
Thank you. Ask and you shall receive. With 50 million Americans with no health-insurance and 50 million Americans with JOKE health-insurance it’s not hard to see why other countries wouldn’t even consider our “system”.
Canadians strongly support the health system’s public rather than for-profit private basis, and a 2009 poll by Nanos Research found 86.2% of Canadians surveyed supported or strongly supported “public solutions to make our public health care stronger.”[7][8]
A Strategic Counsel survey found 91% of Canadians prefer their healthcare system instead of a U.S. style system.[9][10] Plus 70% of Canadians rated their system as working either “well” or “very well”.[11]
A 2009 Harris/Decima poll found 82% of Canadians preferred their healthcare system to the one in the United States, more than ten times as many as the 8% stating a preference for a US-style health care system for Canada[12] while a Strategic Counsel survey in 2008 found 91% of Canadians preferring their healthcare system to that of the U.S.[9][1 wiki
If it’s on Wikiopinion, it’s a known truth.
If it’s on Wikiopinion, it’s a known truth.
How feeble can you get Blue Skye?
There are 6, count them, SIX sources cited in that short wiki clip above describing how “Canadians strongly support the health system’s public rather than for-profit private basis”
You just don’t like the facts. Too bad.
I appreciate factual posts. I don’t appreciate much pretentious posts about things you have no knowledge of beyond a searchable opinion board, references or no.
I appreciate factual posts.
Then you’d appreciate mine if you weren’t hopelessly biased Blue Sky.
My factual post is backed up by 6 sources whether they disturb your little floating bubble world or not.
Don’t project so much. I’m mocking Wiki reliance, not your opinions.
I love engineering.
I find it weird how this thread is more about healthcare than the idea that this entire post could have come right out of 2005.
“Yet Canadians continue to pile it on. Ironically, one of the key reasons household debt is high is the Bank of Canada’s policy of keeping interest rates low. They’ve been at or below 1 per cent for the past four years.”
Are those consumer debts fixed rate or floating? That’s going to be a big issue going forward, there and here. Can you imagine people going into debt based on how much of a monthly nut they can afford not, and then facing interest rates rising to normal levels? Not high levels, just normal.
No matter what happens to interest rates, the party is over when the realization of falling house prices sets in. People are living beyond their means because their supposed net worth has been going up.
Polly
Did you notice the “147 new condo buildings - more than-” ? Do you think that “forest of cranes” will rot before they are finished ?
It seems that guy has a government job. He would be allowed so many days sick leave then his own personal insurance would have to kick in or else he would be on unemployment. He probably didn’t have loss of income insurance. Most here don’t.
I liked Diogenes statement about Canadians preferring the Florida system for speed. I once had to use the Florida system while on vacation there and I found it to be really good. It was expensive, but I had insurance. Also, once while in Virginia I think, it too was very good. But the only difference I really felt was the US system was not crowded, I didn’t have to wait, and their equipment and personnel were really very good.
In Canada our hospitals are crowded and we do have to wait for about an hour on average (except severe injuries, etc). It could be different now because I haven’t used them for quite a while. Our equipment and personnel I would say are on a par with the USA.
As far as real estate in Canada goes - it is rushing for the exits - especially in Ontario (including Toronto). Condos that were listed for 400 plus last Christmas are often 300 plus now. But lots of extend and pretenders around (’buy now or forever lose out”).
One thing, I trust the US medical care just as much as the Canadian one - so I guess that says a lot.
Well, I didn’t count 147, but I saw at least 10 to 12 buildings going up in the extremely short shuttle bus trip from the Toronto island airport terminal to the hotel across from the train station. And they looked mostly like condos to me as you don’t usually have balconies on office buildings.
I trust the US medical care just as much as the Canadian one - so I guess that says a lot.
I think you’re missing the point. We don’t lack trust in the quality of US medical care, we lack trust in our ability to afford it.
But the only difference I really felt was the US system was not crowded, I didn’t have to wait
Possibly because the poor were at home suffering in silence instead of clogging up the health system and robbing you of precious time.
At what point do you capitulate, and finally admit that “gravity” won’t be allowed to work?
It’s become obvious over the past 36 months that the government plans to bail out investment banks, holders of MBS, homeowners, builders, etc. by keeping housing prices “stabilized” at a high level, and will do everything possible to keep housing/rental prices elevated. Too many people’s paychecks and investments depend on it.
So, free market fantasies and talk about “rents/purchase prices in line with incomes” aside, this group will get bailed out, at the expense of renters and future home buyers.
Ownership is becoming so subsidized, that nobody will lower rental prices, because there is no cost or penalty in sitting on a vacant property.
Expect to hear “experts” tell us that a house is “affordable” at 5-6X income, and that rent swallowing 50% of your take home pay is the “new normal”.
At what point do you capitulate, and finally admit that “gravity” won’t be allowed to work?
Obviously some already have. I just keep in mind that there’s a tendency for the majority to get screwed once they’ve all been pulled into doing the wrong thing. I think I’d rather live in a trailer for the reset of my life even while others get rich on their “investments” than make myself a target for that kind of screwing.
I refuse to buy, until:
-Affordability returns to “normal” standards (3X income, in a location I wouldn’t have to worry about having my tools/stuff stolen from).
-The job market in my business reaches some kind of stability.
It’s becoming obvious to me that neither of these things may happen soon enough for it to matter to me.
I’d really like to own a place, so I can do some of the things I’ve been having to put off since 2003 (car projects, aviation stuff, etc). I’ve got 30 years accumulation of tools and hard to find/replace tools and parts in a storage unit, waiting for a chance to get settled.
I’m at the point where if future home ownership is out of the question, I need to think about implementing the “cardboard box beneath an underpass” plan, and start getting rid of my stuff.
Welcome to Lucky Ducky World.
My neighbor is a helicopter mechanic and has quite a collection of specialized tools that hey may only use once every three years or so, but when he needs THAT tool, blammo, serious cash.
I just learned about autorotation. Cool stuff.
What are interest rates like where you are? There’s a big different between looking to buy a house worth $200,000 with an interest rate around 9% than buying a house worth $300,000 with an interest rate around 4%, and thus the price of the home becomes less of a figure sometimes.
Hey folks….. we’ve got a housing pimp here.
Not extremely literate though.
It must be a wonderful site to see that forest of cranes in Toronto. I mean who doesn’t want to live in a city with a donut shop on every corner? And there’s just thousands of great jobs there - like you could sell condos for a living.
Oh, and I bet that people are still fighting over the chance to buy one of those hockey arena condos. They only made a few of them.
You gotta admire stupid - it happens everywhere.
Canadians are making every mistake we made. Greed totally destroys rational thinking. We even have the Internet where you can quickly search for relevant data and find the truth out in a short period of time, compared to the 1970s and 1980s when I was growing up. And yet, people seem to be more clueless and vulnerable to scams than ever before.
Maybe Himmler et al were right, where in order to have a lie pass muster, it must be as big as possible. Housing-as-investment is the biggest lie. The Housing Lie touched everyone, much like the Petroleum Lie touches everyone.
Oct. 27, 2012, 6:00 a.m. EDT
13 U.S. cities going broke
1. Stockton, Calif.
Stockton, with a population of nearly 292,000 people in 2010, became the most populous city to file for bankruptcy in June after the city was unable to close a $26 million deficit. According to Moody’s, the Caa3 rating given to Stockton’s debt assumes that bondholder losses will be greater than 20%. A weak economy has hit Stockton particularly hard. The unemployment rate was 15.4% in April, cutting the revenues coming into city coffers. Stockton’s current year budget, which began in July, called for suspending $10.2 million in debt payments and $11.2 million in employee compensation and retirement benefits.
Canadians are making every mistake we made.
we Canadians are. cmhc insures mortgages. There is a limit on the total dollar amount it may insure, it is $600 billion. Maintenant it is $570 billion. Banks are tightening lending requirements, no more cash back mortgages, the buyer has to have 5% down payment.
Mark Hanson makes the point that in the US as sales and prices fell, interest rates declined thus providing a cushion. However Canada followed the US in lowering its interest rates but now in Canada sales are falling there is no way interest rates can be lowered.
In the US, banks have held non performing mortgages either failing to foreclose or holding REO. I think Canadian banks will be forced to foreclose. I guessing, I don’t know.
45north, the next question is how much of that insured $600 billion was turned into securities, and then how many of those in turn were turned into derivatives. The media is pretending once again that they don’t see any of this going on, but the American example strongly suggests that it must. Bad mortgages weren’t the real problem. They were only a spark, but the real burning fuel was all the leveraged and re-leveraged and re-re-leveraged financial chicanery that banks were doing.