Reminiscent Of 2005, It’s Always Going To Go Up
The Sun Sentinel reports from Florida. “South Florida’s housing market keeps getting better, at least for sellers. Values are on an upswing this year as a lack of available properties give sellers more negotiating power. Most market observers insist that prices have hit bottom, though some analysts say the recent gains will start to level off once lenders list more foreclosed homes for sale. ‘I do not believe pricing will come back down,’ said Summer Greene, president of the Florida Realtors. ‘I think that time has passed.’”
“Douglas Rill, broker of Century 21 America’s Choice in West Palm Beach, said he recently listed a three-bedroom short sale with a pool for $89,900. He had 27 inquiries, 12 showings and six written offers in three days. ‘Does that sound like a slow market?’ Rill said. ‘The low-end is on fire, reminiscent of 2005.’”
“Gary Thomas, president of the National Association of Realtors, urged potential buyers to improve their credit scores so they can qualify for mortgages before rates increase. ‘Even with rising home prices, we’ll continue to see favorable housing affordability conditions over the coming year, but they won’t last forever,’ Thomas said.”
“Mike Larson, an analyst with Weiss Research in Jupiter wonders whether investors eventually will create a frenzy that leads to another bubble. ‘That certainly bears monitoring, but I think it’s something to keep an eye on rather than freak out about,’ he said.”
The Tampa Bay Times. “Although the $25 billion national mortgage settlement’s goal is to keep people in their homes, big banks are doing much better at ushering Florida homeowners out, as a new report shows short sales dwarfing other forms of relief as lenders’ atonement of choice. Short sales totaled $1 billion more in Florida than principal forgiveness for first and second mortgages, deficiency waivers and refinancing — combined. And many of those short sales would have happened anyway.”
“‘They’re getting credit for doing what they were already doing, and what the market was dictating,’ St. Petersburg foreclosure attorney Matt Weidner said. ‘They’re still throwing people out onto the street that could be making a mortgage payment.’”
“‘The banks are pushing everything towards the short sales,’ Keller Williams agent Steve Capen said. ‘There have been some principal reductions here and there, but it’s been at such a random level that you can’t even talk about it.’”
“‘There’s nothing more frustrating than a homeowner who has been working for years to get a (loan) modification and can’t, only for the bank to turn around and sell the house for cents on the dollar … to an investor who will rent it out to somebody,’ Weidner said.”
“Bankruptcy filings in the Tampa Bay area continue to drop from their 2010 peak, falling another 20 percent over the past 12 months to reach levels not seen in four years. But the plunge in new cases in the bay area has done little to alleviate a backlog that could be months if not years away from returning to normal levels. Moreover, strained courtrooms already operating with smaller staffs because of budget cuts may see the situation worsen if bankruptcy filings rise once more — which is exactly what many observers predict.”
“‘I think we’re going to be in for a huge storm,’ said St. Petersburg bankruptcy attorney Charles Moore. ‘I think we’re in a weird, artificially created low. … All of us are asking why (bankruptcy filings) are so low right now. The economy didn’t magically get better over the last two years.’”
“The temporary reprieve in new bankruptcies is rooted in the housing mess. Drawn-out efforts to modify mortgages along with the ‘robo-signing’ scandal over foreclosures that had to be re-filed because paperwork was faulty or forged have given many delinquent homeowners an extended reprieve from losing their homes. Terry Smith, a trustee for Chapter 13 reorganization cases for two of Tampa’s bankruptcy judges, sees more foreclosures being the inevitable driving force for more bankruptcies.”
“Delinquent homeowners — some of whom haven’t made a mortgage payment in years — will suddenly be forced to put money toward rent instead of other expenses. And bankruptcy, he said, may be their only alternative. Moore is already seeing it happen. ‘I had a client in here today who hasn’t made a mortgage payment in 31/2 years,’ he said. ‘They’re finally getting a foreclosure and coming to me’ to discuss bankruptcy options.
“Moore said there’s a common misconception that people who haven’t made a mortgage payment for years must have saved something to shield them from bankruptcy. ‘What bank account is that money in? It’s not there. People are living to what they have,’ he said.”
The Bradenton Herald. “Foreclosures shot up in Manatee and Sarasota in October. Home defaults in both counties have now posted double-digit increases for the past two months, after seesawing for much of the year. Officials peg the choppy numbers to the uncertainty surrounding the judicial foreclosure process in Florida, which has left attorneys still sorting out cases from the peak of the crisis three years ago.”
“A tough labor market also continues to feed new filings, with underwater homeowners who still can’t meet their monthly mortgage, said Joseph Lehn, a Sarasota foreclosure attorney. ‘The reprieve is over — foreclosures are on the rise, modifications are on the rise, short sales are on the rise,’ he said. ‘Banks are realizing they have to move these properties.’”
The Tampa Tribune. “Like thousands of people across the Tampa region, Cheryl Hunt will start preparing for her family’s Thanksgiving meal today. And they’ll give thanks for the meal, which wouldn’t have happened without the help of people they never met. The Hunt family is among the nearly 150,000 Hillsborough County households surviving on food stamps this Thanksgiving, according to the Department of Children & Families.”
“It’s a record number — and one that continues to rise month by month even as the unemployment rate falls. In October, the Department of Agriculture paid out nearly $38 million in food assistance in Hillsborough County alone, a 10.4 percent increase over the previous year. The Department of Children & Families says about a quarter of the Floridians receiving food stamps work.”
“‘It could be that even though people are going back to work, but maybe the incomes are not rising,’ said Patrick Mason, a labor economist at Florida State University. ‘They aren’t going back to jobs that are paying a lot.’”
“For the last three years, Cheryl and Johnnie Hunt have had little or no work. Johnnie used to run his own tile business, which went bust with the housing market. Cheryl worked for a title company. The family’s house is in foreclosure. They’re living on food stamps and scraping up whatever work they can get. They get help from friends and family, too. ‘I don’t know any other way to say it,’ Johnnie said. ‘It got bad.’”
“With the housing market showing signs of life, the Hunts hope next year will be better. ‘I don’t even care if I’m working steady — just more than now,’ Johnnie said as Cheryl loaded the family’s few bags of groceries into their minivan.”
The News Journal. “There’s nary a house in Flagler Estates. At least, not on the Flagler County side, which includes 2,771 acres of land that was subdivided and sold in 1970, mostly as lots of about an acre. More than 40 years later, nothing’s been built and the lots in Flagler County are likely to remain vacant into the foreseeable future.”
“Other stalled developments have occurred statewide, including in Volusia County. Dozens of these so-called ‘paper subdivisions’ were marketed throughout Florida as investments in the 1960s and ’70s. Buyers often purchased land sight unseen and now find themselves in some cases unable to find the property, much less build a house on it.”
“Lynne Bohannon and Jeff Hartdorn, who live in New Smyrna Beach, own at least 28 lots in Flagler Estates. ‘It’s simplistic to dismiss the purchasers of swampland as stupid,’ Jeff Hartdorn wrote in an email. ‘There was an incredibly well-choreographed industry to prevent victims from obtaining accurate information.’”
“Lots in the Flagler portion of Flagler Estates that initially sold in the 1970s for between $5,000 and $12,000, according to a sales brochure Bohannon has kept all these years, are today valued by the Flagler County Property Appraiser at $300 to $600. Still, some property owners remain hopeful that their land will regain its value one day — maybe just not in their lifetime. Jack Snider, who lives in Pleasant Prairie, Wis., is one of them. He paid $11,000 for 1.36 acres in 1984. Today it’s appraised at $300.”
“‘It’s been up and down,’ Snider said by phone. ‘Before the housing bubble burst, some lots were selling for $30,000. I’ll probably pass it along to my daughter, who may keep it for her children.’”
“‘I own land in Texas and other land in Florida, and it’s the most likely to eventually become viable,’ Snider said. ‘I was sucked in by the sellers.’”
“Snider remains hopeful his investment eventually will pay off. ‘It’s land,’ he said. ‘It’s always going to go up.’”
‘we’ll continue to see favorable housing affordability conditions over the coming year, but they won’t last forever,’ Thomas said.’
Here’s another oldie but goodie:
‘There is plenty of evidence to support a decline in home ownership rates, but there has not been much noise in the blogosphere or mainstream media on the consequent implication for real estate investing…Home values will continue to rise over the long-term providing inflation continues and the population expands. The need for housing will grow for the foreseeable future, and the cost to fill this need will rise with wages and the cost of materials.’
‘Along with the rise in prices, rental rates will rise. But here’s the exciting part for investors …As home ownership decentralizes, more properties will be held by fewer people. This means less competition when setting rental rates, and thus a marginally higher rate in the rise of rental rates.’
‘This level of centralized control was lost in the market when ownership levels rose well above 60%, but we can expect a certain degree of “price control” to return as only the wealthier are able to own homes.’
‘Along with the rise in prices, rental rates will rise. But here’s the exciting part for investors …
As home ownership decentralizes, more properties will be held by fewer people. This means less competition when setting rental rates, and thus a marginally higher rate in the rise of rental rates. This level of centralized control was lost in the market when ownership levels rose well above 60%, but we can expect a certain degree of “price control” to return as only the wealthier are able to own homes.’
http://blogs.tallahassee.com/community/2012/11/21/the-next-50-year-cycle-in-real-estate/
Yeah. I got into it on another blog that is oriented to topics of local interest, etc. Some poster started talking book about how prices were going to rise and rise quickly, SSDD. Now, this happened to be in one of the areas of Florida that really got hit with the ugly stick during the bubble pop. (Northport and points south).
Oh, the agreement and bloviating about “buy now”, or you’ll be shut out, and how Blackstone was infesting in 3 br, 2ba rental properties, etc., etc. Here’s the remake of an oldie: Big Hedge funds are going to invest in rental property, driving up prices and you’ll be shut out.
It just. never. ends.
OK, so hedge funds are buying up real estate. Shows you how desperate they are for return, any kind of return. Yes, they’re paying cash and pennies on the dollar. But I predict they’re not going to be too happy in the property management business. That’s a whole different ballgame than screwing with numbers on a computer screen.
Oh, yeah, what about those REITs? Anyone remember how much REITs used to suck? At least for the person foolish enough to put their money in one. POOF!
I do want to point out that there IS a housing bubble in Florida right now. It’s a bubble in defective construction, and how! All that crap they slapped up during the bubble is now starting to deteriorate fast.
Read all about it!
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/kb_home.html
Oh and here’s a little anecdote: I’m friendly with a snowbird couple whose home was one of the ones in a retirement subdivision that got hit with Chinese drywall. They did get the drywall remediated (took a couple of years for it to happen) and even then the crew that replaced the drywall slapped it up over electrical outlets and another crew had to come in and locate all the outlets and carve ‘em out. Boo-YAH!
They’ve given up. They’re going to try to sell their place and move to one of the older homes in a different subdivision on the community.
OK, so hedge funds are buying up real estate. Shows you how desperate they are for return, any kind of return. Yes, they’re paying cash and pennies on the dollar. But I predict they’re not going to be too happy in the property management business. That’s a whole different ballgame than screwing with numbers on a computer screen.
Agree with you, palmy. I think that these hedge funds are going to run head-on into problems like clogged toilets at 3 a.m. And not just at one house. Try dozens of houses.
The property management business is NOT for sissies.
“I think that these hedge funds are going to run head-on into problems like clogged toilets at 3 a.m. And not just at one house. Try dozens of houses.”
Unless Ben has some other insight into this, here’s what I see happening: nothing but misery. The hedge funds will, of course, hire property managers, but they’ll be on a budget. And will probably ignore problems like faulty plumbing, wiring, HVAC, etc. Renters will be made miserable by having their problems ignored. Complaints will be made, lawsuits filed, property wrecked out of frustration. These will be slums-in-waiting.
I don’t know how these guys will do with these houses. But I do know what they plan to do; sell em. If you read the stories and if they mention their ‘exit strategy’ it’s to either sell in a few years on the market or sell as a REIT. Problem with the latter is it hasn’t been done with SF houses before.
Overall, too much is being made of this hedge fund stuff. They aren’t buying that many houses. But the media likes it; a couple months ago Yahoo (which has some REIC cheerleading headline almost every hour) announced “The Smart Money Is Going Into Housing”, meaning the hedge funds. How smart?
‘Hedge fund managers don’t have much to be thankful for these holidays, as failure to beat low-fee index funds will likely infuriate investors shelling out hefty fees for their services. Just 13 percent of the so-called smartest money on the Street is outperforming the S&P 500 (^GSPC), and a fifth of all hedge funds are actually in the red during 2012, according to Goldman Sachs (GS) data.’
‘To make matters worse, hedge fund managers have crowded into the same trades, with turnover at a record low, according to Goldman. Translation: Hedge fund investors are paying 2 percent fees up front and 20 percent of profits thereafter to managers delivering poor performance and apparently doing little about it.’
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/smart-money-hedge-funds-now-191817907.html
“These will be slums-in-waiting.”
But in the meantime those lines, although they may be dotted lines on those nifty charts, dotted as they may be, just keep on going up.
And if you can somehow focus the OPM clients on the chart rather on (gasp) what the charts are supposed to represent then you may land a sale. And what does a salesman get when he lands a sale? A commission maybe?
He gets a commission money right away and the OPM guy gets his (pun?) money somewhere down the road as the dotted lines full of promise fill in and become solid lines filled with reality.
It’s all good if you are one of those guys who lives from quarter to quarter. Less than all good if your time horizon is a bit longer.
(Pensions? Is this a good time to bring up promises - underfunded promises - imbeded in pensions?)
‘To make matters worse, hedge fund managers have crowded into the same trades, with turnover at a record low, according to Goldman.’
Who’d've thunk the hedge hogs would turn out to be a flock of dumb sheep, herding along side each other to slaughter?!
‘This level of centralized control was lost in the market when ownership levels rose well above 60%, but we can expect a certain degree of “price control” to return as only the wealthier are able to own homes.’
At the risk of a smackdown from one of the resident legal eagles, I suggest this sounds like price fixing, which is illegal under the Sherman Antitrust Act.
Are wealthy investors colluding to screw renters through price fixing?
“…only the wealthier are able to own homes.”
How does this square with the FHA’s affordable housing loans, whose purpose is to put federally-guaranteed mortgages into the hands of low- and middle-income buyer households?
““Gary Thomas, president of the National Association of Realtors, urged potential buyers to improve their credit scores so they can qualify for mortgages before rates increase. ‘Even with rising home prices…”
I realize we’re talking about Realtor-math here, but isn’t it always easier to qualify for a mortgage when rates rise? The dominance of howmuchamonth thinking automatically makes prices drop, and lower prices improve the loan/income ratio and improve the downpayment (if any) ratio. I would predict that aside from corruption, etc, multi-generationally low rates would mean it is multi-generationally difficult to get financing.
Slightly off topic, I know this is the HOUSING bubble blog but I’ve been thinking lately that low rates are semi-permanent not so much to protect the banks and mortgages (they can extend and pretend into the sunset, buy whatever accounting regs they want, to say nothing of fuzzy math) but to protect the automakers. Howmuchamonth math means higher interest rates would immediately and permanently destroy the automakers sales figures. I’m sticking with the theory rates are low to save the automakers who can’t hide facts as easily and are somewhat less crooked than the real estate industry.
“I’m sticking with the theory that rates are low to save the automakers who can’t hide facts as easily and are somewhat less cooked than the real estate industry.”
I’m sticking with the theory that rates are low to save the banks.
The low rates are the result of the actions by the Fed - the Central Bank - and the Fed will do whatever it takes to save the banks because that is what the Fed does.
I’m sticking with the theory rates are low to save the automakers who can’t hide facts as easily and are somewhat less crooked than the real estate industry ??
Automakers are minuscule compared the the real estate market when it comes to debt….The country and the world for that matter is deleveraging and the FED has concluded that the only way that will happen and we survive it is to lower the cost of funds to basically zero…Slowly, debt is being paid or vaporized (See Short Sales)….
Maybe this book would help with understanding what we are going through right now…
http://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Different-Centuries-Financial/dp/0691152640/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t
I’m sticking with the theory that rates are low because of Deflation.
that rates are low because of Deflation ??
Probably not “because of” more like to fight off Deflation….The FED’s worst nightmare….
The Fed can screw things up pretty bad, but they can’t absolutely prevent a credit contraction. The FedGov has been trying to pick up the borrowing slack, but it is not enough.
“I’m sticking with the theory rates are low to save the automakers who can’t hide facts as easily and are somewhat less crooked than the real estate industry.”
Here is a data point to bolster your theory: I have a five-year 1.5% loan backed by the collateral of a 2012 Toyota. If hyperinflation hits, at least we are fully hedged against Japanese automobile price increases.
Cars are already too expensive. Some people have 8 year auto loans now. 8 years on a car!
“Gary Thomas, president of the National Association of Realtors, urged potential buyers to improve their credit scores so they can qualify for mortgages before rates increase. ‘Even with rising home prices, we’ll continue to see favorable housing affordability conditions over the coming year, but they won’t last forever,’ Thomas said.”
And here they are again, without a lick of integrity, attempting to create a sense of urgency.
Interesting: Rates will rise, prices will rise, and affordability will also rise.
“Modified-Mortgage Defaults Soar 24% in Looming Housing Challenge”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-19/modified-mortgage-defaults-soar-24-in-looming-housing-challenge.html
More concrete evidence that the desperate measures to hide inventory are failing.
When will this BS come to a head?
I’m stuck in this town for the long term but I don’t want to catch a falling knife. I’ve been waiting for 7 years now and I feel as though I will be waiting another 7.
“When will this BS come to a head?”
It’s the zit that just won’t pop. And those of us who were unlucky enough to have problem skin during adolescence know what that’s like.
‘this BS come to a head’
IMO you’re looking at it the wrong way. When did the Japanese bubbles ‘come to a head’? When the prices peaked? When they fell, and kept falling for decades? When a recession came and never left?
I’ve mentioned this before; in Texas in the 80’s, many of us didn’t know what to expect. We did know we were disconnected from the economies of other regions in the US. They were doing well, and we were in the cellar. As the years wore on, the dull realization that the boom wasn’t coming back set in, and one by one we settled in to the new reality. The economy is better in Texas now; partly due to oil and gas I suppose. But here’s a point to consider: nobody tried to stop the Texas bubble from crashing. There were no loan programs, QE infinity, banks regulations weren’t suspended. Heck they were swiftly liquidated. Interest rates went up if you wanted to buy a house in Texas because of the risk. And down payments could be 30%, to protect the lender.
All the discussions we’ve had over the years about the policy response to the stock and housing bubbles weren’t academic. This is real world stuff going on that will change the life of every person in this country. I guess your feeling a little bit of that. Good luck, you’ll probably need it.
“….nobody tried to stop the Texas bubble from crashing.”
Mainly because those of us who resided in the lower 48 were enjoying too much schadenfreude, from watching all of those newly minted Texans oil barons who had been rubbing our noses into it for years get some comeuppance.
Everybody and his brother in Texas was starting some kind of “oil” or “exploration” company, and buying bizjets/airborne party busses on spec. (a deposit as low as $25K would get you a line slot on a new jet…….sorta the equivalent of the “fog a mirror” plan in housing)
I remember the early eighties, when the oil economy went blooey, people started walking away from their orders, and we ended up with 30-35 “white tails” on the property. The other OEMs were in the same shape. It killed the new airplane market for 3-4 years.
It turned my company from an independent manufacturer, to a division of a conglomerate after the buyout. (Of course, the suits made their own gold mine with their stocks/options after the buyout, and the working stiffs got the shaft).
They did change their business model, by requiring large down payments and “progress payments”, and started the lobby for government cheese (AKA as Investment Tax Credit”/accelerated depreciation).
My brother lived in Texas for a while in the mid-80s, moved back there a couple of years ago.
He says the job market was better back in the eighties. The only jobs being created now in DFW are Lucky Duck, $10/12 hour, (usually) independent contractor jobs.
Got a “retention raise” a couple of years ago, when he threatened to leave. Had a performance review a couple of weeks ago………now he’s “overpaid” and won’t be seeing any raises for 2 years.
And this is a “Lucky Dick” pay level/customer contact/non-offshorable job.
‘Everybody and his brother in Texas was starting some kind of “oil” or “exploration” company’
No, that was on the TV show Dallas. I grew up in the oil patch and the great majority of people didn’t have any oil property. As I’ve mentioned before, it was the RE bubble that took the economy down, not oil.
A few years ago someone who grew up in the same area and I were talking about the current housing bubble. He said, ‘at least we DID have oil. This bubble is based on nothing.’
I saw a map yesterday that Texas and California had the two largest chunks of federal employees that will get the axe if/when the deal goes down at the 1st. of the year. It was a really big number (over 100k) and that didn’t include the active military, ICE or homeland security who seem to be immune to any cuts. It’s always fun to watch our Gov. cheer on the anti-big government crowd when such a huge number of the base actually work for the very same government.
Natural gas was the latest bubble to hit the west side of North Texas. Prices have crashed so bad, coal is now more expensive to use!
At least this time, a lot of home owners were able to lease thier mineral rights for a few thousand.
“He said, ‘at least we DID have oil.”
… and Florida has SUNSHINE!!!
The only jobs being created now in DFW are Lucky Duck, $10/12 hour, (usually) independent contractor jobs.
As I said the other day, that’s par for the course in most metro areas now.
Waiting for what?
The bottom to drop out of the market. It’s due, you can see it. The occupancy levels are low, lots of empty house sitting off the market.
Ryan- Where in Orlando are you at? Been down here almost 8 years now myself.
East Orlando….Avalon Park.
6 buys, 7 sells for the coming 2013 recession
Shilling warns that inventory increases are “likely to push prices down another 20% over the next several years.”
http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-11-16/commentary/35251323_1_debt-crisis-world-economy-financial-sector/3
Get out of housing while you still might be able to find a buyer*.
*Housing demand is already at 16 year lows and falling.
Wait, so the popular joke that “I have some swampland in Florida to sell you” was a real thing??
Rents for a 1300 sq ft 3-bed SFH in West Palm Beach hover around $1200-1300/month. The howmuchamonth PITI on that $90K short sale is $700. No wonder the low end is on fire.
Wait, so the popular joke that “I have some swampland in Florida to sell you” was a real thing??
Yes it was.
ISTR hearing about one of the Marx Brothers losing his shirt in that sort of deal. Back in the 1920s, I think.
Boy, did he get stucco! -
I have to ask me loverly wife to give me a copy of that movie as a Christmas gift. Years after adopting and later dropping the Get Stucco handle, I have yet to watch it…
“The howmuchamonth PITI on that $90K short sale is $700″
You clearly don’t understand the second “I.”
Blame Zillow. When I want to know PITI, I just pick a Zillow house in the same area with the same price tag. Zillow gives a very quick PITI howmuchamonth.
Insurance in Florida is crushing.
Jack Snider, who lives in Pleasant Prairie, Wis., is one of them. He paid $11,000 for 1.36 acres in 1984. Today it’s appraised at $300.”
[...]
“Snider remains hopeful his investment eventually will pay off. ‘It’s land,’ he said. ‘It’s always going to go up.’”
That is such a fantastic quote, Ben!
It’s amazing how he has been able to hang onto that mantra for almost thirty years now—ignoring the reality right in front of his face, that for his land in particular, it has not always gone up.
Denial runs deep….and long…
I still see a lot of Jack Sniders out there. I see 5 acre parcels with the same price tag as 5 years ago.
People–even college educated people–really do not understand real prices vs nominal prices. Yes, if you buy land there will often come a time when you could sell it for nominally more than you purchased it for. For example, if you bought a buildable lot in 1980 or 1990, yes you probably can sell that for more money now, even after this current slump. However, if you look back at inflation during this period, I doubt you’d make any money. And to the extent you do make money, it’s probably a funcion of luck + possible insider information or other market-rigging (e.g. zoning changes, new roads, etc). Thus, best left to professionals–not because they know more, but because they’re better at rigging markets.
“People–even college educated people–really do not understand real prices vs nominal prices.”
I know some dumb @ss college educated people and some very smart people who never went to college. I still remember a story that was posted on this blog (I think it was in 2007) about a surgeon who had paid like $600k for an $80k condo in Bradenton Fl.
One of the comments said……
Note to self
Never have surgery in Bradenton Fl.
Of course….
“Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects.”
― Will Rogers
“…because they’re better at rigging markets.”
Also more likely to be carrying ZIRP money, against which the spread on even dumb investments can turn out profitable…
+12