The Housing Bubble

Go goons! Don’t sell out till Nat. Gas is $15mcf then take the money and go to Belize.

But there’s profit to be made. Isn’t there a rule of acquisition for that?

On the other hand, I seem to recall a DS9 episode where Quark was stunned to learn that the “hew-mons” actually detonated fission bombs on Earth in the 20th century. Si I guess w’re actually worse than the Ferengi.

But there’s profit to be made

Why do you hate the Free Market so much?

In some places, you can even heat with your tapwater!

Fracking activity is ramping up in Western Maryland, basically the same geology as WV and PA. Citizens are starting to mobilize for a moratorium, and they are well aware that the industry’s next step is pipelines for export. Evidently, the industry is displeased with the recent drop in natural gas prices.

Ain’t it sweet? Now we to get to foul our nests in the name of profit.

If we make it bad enough here, we won’t have to worry about the Chinese invading when they can’t live in China anymore.

Like father, like son.

You must have missed the part about having enough parasitic, sh*tbag overlords of our own already? Or you skip it because it doesn’t fit the narrative?

I would have been less inclined to ignore your comment about parasitic, sh*tbag overlords if you had specified or at least hinted at who these parasitic, sh*tbag overlords were.

Are they related to the Free Sh*t Army? I’m not sure… does the Free Sh*t Army have to power to delayed the invation of Iraq?

Huh? You understand the meaning of the word overlord, right?

If you do, how do you confuse an Overlord with the FSA?

didn’t know those planes came from ieeraq, or was it oceana, or eurasia, anywhoo, go GI Joe and Jane.

Commie talk!

says he has no idea what he’ll do next, where he’ll live or how he’ll support himself.

He’s paid more than enough taxes in his time. About time, uncle Sam helps him a little.

“…he has no idea what he’ll do next,…”

Pay higher taxes, perhaps?

“…he has no idea what he’ll do next,…”
My guess he will do one or all of the following: drugs, sex and rock-n-roll.

Deport him to Brittain.

That was my thought as well but he’s a dual citizen, so at least partly our problem now.

Actually, I was thinking this when the story first came out. I was wondering which government he’d end up relying on for help. Big surprise.

How much does it cost to send an Embassy official to visit him?

Well, first you have to have an embassy there…

Cabs are very cheap in Guatamala.

Cabs are very cheap in Guatamala.

Are embassies? With staffs? In every country?

I wonder what pays for them?

The taxes dumbo didn’t want to pay.

Well, first you have to have an embassy there…
It’s the sort of thing some nation-states like to do.

A recent HBB poster stated he would “rather live 60 years under freedom than 80 years under tyranny”. Because nothing, NOTHING, says American Exceptionalism, invisible hand of free market, bootstrapping, Galt Gulch, Horatio Alger, John Wayne, mom and apple pie like dying prematurely from an easily treatable condition

I’ve noticed that the USA ships jobs overseas to benefit the rich then has a propaganda campaign to paint the jobless “lazy”.

That’s funny, I’ve noticed the exact same thing.

Seems like treasonous slander, to me.

parasites, leeches, middlemen, deadwoods, lying lawyers & greedy administrators

Also known as the private health insurance market.

I have a Q for you medical folks in the know: One of the first things the Obama Adminstration did was to take steps toward making all medical records electronic. Were Obama and Biden quietly preparing for a centralized billing system, in anticipation of an eventual public-option or single-payer or even *gasp* socialized health care?

Oxide, I don’t know what the ulterior motive may be in encouraging the adoption of electronic medical records. No question it would help in billing and reimbursement though. My hospital system has had one for around 10 years now and has gone nearly paperless. On the whole, it has led to lower error rates (especially medication errors) and better communication. Human nature being what it is, the medical and nursing staff are now being scolded about the tendency to copy-and-paste progress notes instead of saying something new and meaningful. Instead of endless reams of uninformative paper, we now have endless pixels of useless information clogging up the system.

And oh boy, when the system goes down, things grind to a halt.

Insurance companies not having to abide by the Sherman Anti-Trust act guarenteed medical costs in the US will always be higher than single payer systems.

News to me. They must have figured out how to suppress human nature without us finding out.

What about the unfunded mandates that come down from the national level?

Where I live, there is a tight little cabal of people who run the school boards, and if you aren’t in their club, you have zero chance of getting on the board.

Wonder where they learned to play like this? It’s the land where all the corporate CEOs and their society spouses live!

ecofeco, regarding the economy, you said 70% is consumption and:

“The other 30% is the rest. Mfg, investment, operations, B2B.”

ok, and if 70% is consumption, what’s being consumed?

Those “mandates” are mostly myth and linked to federal grants.

If you want the free money, then there are conditions. Nobody is forcing the public schools to do anything beyond basic civil rights and safety.

They are neither unfunded nor forced. Many states refuse the conditions and therefore lose the money, and then propagandize about “unfunded mandates” to shift the blame away from their incompetency and unwillingness to advance real education. i.e mostly states with heavily religious constituents who still think evolution is some kind of faith.

Yes, you can google this. Also investigate the workings of your local school board more closely. People are led everyday to think they have no control over their local government, who are the ones screwing you far more on a daily basis then the federal government.

If you want the free money, then there are conditions. Nobody is forcing the public schools to do anything beyond basic civil rights and safety.

What about special education?

Special ed fall under both civil rights and safety.

Where I live, there is a tight little cabal of people who run the school boards, and if you aren’t in their club, you have zero chance of getting on the board.

Wonder where they learned to play like this? It’s the land where all the corporate CEOs and their society spouses live!

In one area I lived in, you couldn’t get on the PTA board w/o the cabal’s blessing. If they didn’t like you they’d go to one of their own and beg them to run against you.
Cross these people and it would get pretty lonely at the kid’s Christmas performance too. In the end I just sat back and watched the crossfire. Soap opera writers have no idea!

Special ed fall under both civil rights and safety.

What if it costs more to do it than all the other students put together? The local tax base controls how much gets spent per pupil on the regular students (I think), but the local tax base has no bearing on how much must be spent on special ed to satisfy the Feds. How can that work in poor areas?

not if your the nurse hired to distribute that aspirin.

not if your the nurse hired to distribute that aspirin.

I see you’re quite the Keynesian.

But Keynes would point out that we could employ more nurses if the aspirin wasn’t so expensive.

“I see you’re quite the Keynesian.”

“We are all Keynesians now” - Milton Friedman

““We are all Keynesians now” - Milton Friedman”

Having savings put away for a rainy day = Keynesian

Having a HELOC for a rainy day = Neo Keynesian

We have a phony GDP.

On one hand, I feel bad for these types of seniors. When we were looking at houses, several of them were owned/occupied by people who were clearly over 65 and still working. And not working at a well-paying and enjoyable job, either.

On the other hand, it’s hard to feel bad for the overall demographic of people 60+ who did not save anything, or who relied on the market or a pension, etc. These are supposed to be in addition to savings, not the entirety of one’s “retirement plan”. I also had a sneaking suspicion that many of these people still owed money on the mortgage or HELOC or had other types of debt because they were the least likely to make concessions on price. Every house we saw owned by someone of this age cohort was also in fairly junky shape and had clear signs of nonexistant or cut-rate maintenance. Good luck getting full-asking price for a gross house with no updating/maintenance for 10+ years, gramps.

Love this.

You feel sorry for them, while you remove wealth from the economy by shifting money around for exhorbitant fees and big pay.

Priceless.

Those seniors had to go through 5 recessions in their lifetime, not just the last couple that some people seem to think are only recent developments in human history.

And after each recession, wages dropped and never recovered.

And they did save, but banks collapsed, taking their money with them and also stopped offering decent interest rates. IIRC, just 20 years ago, a savings account or CD was returning 5+%. What is it today? 1 % or less? Yeah, I’m sure everybody but those seniors saw that coming.

As for pensions, those were not some fairy tale entitlement (so sad that so many think they are today) they were an important part of employment consideration and considered “safe as houses” for decades. It was unthinkable that companies would renege on those contracts.

Nobody can predict the long range future and it’s impossible to save enough money when the rules keep changing for the worse.

Do not think for a minute it can’t happen to you or that you will be smart enough to see it coming. You could wake up tomorrow and find out you have cancer and your insurance has just cancelled your policy… right after your company lays you off or your biggest clients stiff you.

“Good luck…gramps.”

I’m sure any of these geezers would be glad to work a few more years at their job to give you the latest fad in home decor, cause that’s what you need. Most likely they don’t because word is you’d rather pick out your own crap.

Joe I suggest you pay attention to this comment.

I’m pretty sure that you know enough to prepare, but there for the grace of god go you. Not everyone has had your good luck.

I really don’t think the comment is high and mighty. First off, this was a learning experience to me, seeing older people who had their entire life savings in their house yet did not take care of their house like a responsible person. My parents, grandparents, and in-laws are all very financially conservative. Sometimes painfully so. Like my dad making 200k/yr as an engineer and having a bunch of small cash-flowing businesses on the side but making his own lunch to take to work, wearing shoes until they have holes in them, and driving his cars until they blow up (literally had an engine blow up on him once on a car with ~250k miles). And in my dad’s case, he has a military pension at a colonel level and a pension from the utility he worked at… after which he “retired”, moved, and went to work in a different region. My point is: up until I saw it first hand, I didn’t realize how many old people really “rely” on their house to be able to “retire”.

Eco– as far as “they couldn’t see it coming”… No one is saying you can predict everything–far from it. However, even when I was in elementary school, I saw the Bush41 recession and heard about outsourcing, NAFTA, “free trade”, etc. I didn’t understand it but it made me ask questions. I do believe that many of these “Boomers” have been complacent. No, I do not think companies being looted and pensions stolen is right, it disgusts me. But I also regard the entire “retirement planning” industry with extreme suspicion.

I also think it’s fairly humbling at times to buck the trend I see around me–we bought a house that is less than our combined incomes for 1 yr. And we bought close to family and my wife’s work. I do not feel bad for people who kept trading up houses, believed that their house could supplement their income or make them rich, and decided not to do any maintenance.

Further, when I talk about these houses having defered or non-existant maintenance, I’m not talking about stainless/granite type things. I am talking about roofs in need of repair, gutters hanging loosely about to blow off, overgrown vegetation, 30 yr old raggedy carpet, etc. Also, I don’t care if I get pilloried for this, but it really says something about someone who is asking for a peak-type price on a house yet they have ugly wallpaper all over the place. I’m not talking about “designer” type upgrades, I’m talking about someone who didn’t take care of the house, not just for a few yrs, but who essentially did no maintenance and yet owes money on the house.

If you’re going to own a house, pay it off in a reasonable amount of time. Don’t make minimum payments so you can spend on “stuff”. Don’t just assume you’ll always be able to work. And don’t rely on money managed by others to be the bulk of your retirement. And never, ever borrow against your personal residence.

A more succinct version: I don’t think I will be “smart enough to see it coming”, which is precisely the reason discipline is needed. I’d rather assume my firm/practice area won’t exist in 2-3 yrs.

As far as “fads”, when did I endorse fads? If anything, I strongly favor traditional looks. Sadly, many of the older people’s houses had cheap, plastic-y fixtures, linoleum tile, paint jobs from the 70s, etc. I’d rather buy durable, long-lasting materials that harken back to the era when houses were meant for a lifetime. Not all these crappy materials that evolved in the 60s-80s when people started regarding each house as the “next step in the ladder”. And that’s what I’m getting at with these old people.

OK Joe, you got me with the 10 year updates.

After 40 years as a widow, my grandmother’s house was quite the example. Daily cares seemed to take over “updating”. Of course, she never intended for it to be sold.

I do believe that Realtors have everything to do with setting the list price expectations in most cases, not the person who bought the place for $25K decades ago.

A lot of older people have other things on their minds besides updating their homes: health issues, visiting with family, grandchildren. Then there is the passage of time. Years go by and suddenly, without your realizing it, the roof is 25 years old and the plumbing leaks. My own dad was always meticulous about home maintenance until he had cardiac bypass surgery. After that, things started to slide.

As for pensions, those were not some fairy tale entitlement (so sad that so many think they are today) they were an important part of employment consideration and considered “safe as houses” for decades. It was unthinkable that companies would renege on those contracts.
Pensions WERE a fair tale entitlement. This HBB should have adequately illustrated by now that the ’safe as houses’ notion was ALSO a fairy tale entitlement, regardless of the popular opinion. All entitlements depend on the source of the funds to satisfy them. Bankruptcy is not ‘unthinkable’, ‘inconceivable’, or ‘impregnable’. Neither is national insolvency.

Pensions WERE a fair tale entitlement.

Many countries have pensions that are not fairy tales.

Don’t just assume you’ll always be able to work.
Good advice for everyone on the HBB who thinks they have secure employment.
And don’t rely on money managed by others to be the bulk of your retirement. ALL our money is now managed by others, i.e, the Federal Reserve, the US Congress & the financial oligarchy. Feel better?

Further, when I talk about these houses having defered or non-existant maintenance, I’m not talking about stainless/granite type things. I am talking about roofs in need of repair, gutters hanging loosely about to blow off, overgrown vegetation, 30 yr old raggedy carpet, etc.
There’s ‘maintenance’ — roofs with holes in them, rotting framework, bad foundations, basement furnaces in danger of flooding — and then there’s ‘maintenance’ - loose gutters, vegetation, raggedy carpeting, all trivial to fix. You have conflated matters that are better considered separately.
—
someone who is asking for a peak-type price on a house yet they have ugly wallpaper all over the place. So don’t buy or bid on it.

Many countries have pensions that are not fairy tales.
Tell us some more fairy tales.
Yogi Berra is my guru on this issue: “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future” If Yogi didn’t say it, he should have. Pension plans all rely on predictions about what will or might happen. Some plans are better founded than others, but those darn events just keep happening, and human beings keep getting disappointed.

Many countries have pensions that are not fairy tales.
Tell us some more fairy tales.

Many countries have much better private and public pension plans than does the USA.

That you think they might “fail” someday because of your learned dogma does not make them fairy tales.

That you think they might “fail” someday because of your learned dogma does not make them fairy tales.
You. really. just. don’t. get. it. about. prognostications. Do you?

You. really. just. don’t. get. it. about. prognostications. Do you?

Yea, I “get” prognostications. The world will “end” in 2012 because the Mayans say so, the dollar will “crash” etc. etc.

Meanwhile dozens of countries will still have much better public and private pensions than does the USA. And they will for dozens and dozens of more years.

Lucky Duck/wretched refuse monthly pay (before taxes) = $1280.

Payment on $25K @ %4, 48 months = $496/month

Typical insurance for 18-25 year old (Full coverage) = $167/month

Typical gas bill/month (from my own experience) = $200

Property Tax and tags/month (from my experience) = $50

Total = $913/month

Yeah, you can make it work, as long as you can live in the car

I like this joesmith guy! Don’t post much on here anymore, but always browse because of good posters like this!

re: 10 yr updates, I’m referring more to the fact that they haven’t updated or replaced *anything* in 10 yrs. Not that the whole house should be updated and have a great deal of recent upgrades. As you say, most buyers would rather do that. But when they haven’t done anything to the place it gives some insight about the owners’ way of thinking.

The people I’m referring to clearly ran the place roughshod but then want the full sticker price which, as you say, is usually based on Realtor (TM) advice. This all goes back to “housing is an investment” and the “trading-up” mindset that seems to have started about 50 yrs ago. If you absolutely must sell your place at a high price in order to retire, then you failed somewhere along the way.

is usually based on Realtor (TM) advice.
I went to an Open House in my neighborhood that matches the sort of house joesmith has been criticizing. Occupied by an elderly homeowner who minimized maintenance yet wanted a price comparable to better quality homes nearby. The Realtor said told me thought a price about 30% less than the offering price was more reasonable. That’s the only time a Realtor said something like that to me.

When a house is underwater or when it belongs to someone who is selling for the purpose of downsizing/retiring, it seems like the buyer is often more zealous about getting a high price than a Realtard (TM). We also had realtors tell us “this seller is unrealistic, they won’t budge nad have already turned down great offers for this market”.

There were a few houses we looked at where the elderly people in the house wouldn’t budge on price. They were adamant that they needed list price & wouldn’t consider counteroffering (our offers were usually 20% below asking but most of these people wouldn’t even take 10% off). As far as I’m aware, NONE of these houses sold. The sellers were psychologically anchored to the sales prices from their block in the ‘05-07 era. It was batsh*t insane and they really believed their unmaintained shack would go up in value. Purchase prices haven’t dropped here in the intervening 18 months, but they haven’t increased either. Meanwhile these people are trapped, probably still owe money on the house, and have to keep working part time to pay for the house. Just plain stupid.

Life does not always go as planned.

In fact, it usually doesn’t.

My father was military career and didn’t buy his first house until after retirement. He didn’t buy his second house until almost 15 years after that.

Did he make a wrong decision? Or should he have bought a house never knowing how long we would live anywhere while in the military?

This is SOP for most people. Many people often sell their career house and buy a retirement house. Is this wrong? Rhetorical question: of course it isn’t.

I think it may be time to find a new phrase. Government equals housing and vice versa is getting old; I read it every day .

Again… it doesn’t seem to be working very well.

BTW, prices would need to rise by 20% to make the monthly payments the same as we go from rates of 5% to 3.5%.

Even more, if you are looking at the interest portion of the payment only (not principal reduction).

We haven’t seen anything like that move in prices.

To be fair, FL gets most of the garbage demographic from NY and NJ. Nothing to brag about. FL still has awful infrastructure and schools, so I’m not sure what all the benefits are. It’s also not like FL is serious competition for the northeast when it comes to high paying jobs. Sure banks might do some customer service or claims processing in FL, but the real money positions stay where the educated workers are.

Yeah, we get the garbage police, firefighters, and teachers.

Joe:

Who fits into your world of “non-garbage” demographics?

One more thing, Joe:

What color is your limosine?

Haha love the class warfare. Yeah he’s the Bigshot Ivy League lawyer but what is he saying about Florida that isn’t true?

The majority of the state (by area) is a great place to live. It’s certain metro areas that aren’t very nice at all. Palm Beach has been great from a weather and quality of living (not for families) standpoint for generations. That tide has changed though and there’s plenty of blame to go around.

Remember what built Florida. A great place to retire with low taxes and a low cost of living. A lot of Florida is still that way. Don’t let your Tampa area and South Florida view deter you from the truth.

Who fits into your world of “non-garbage” demographics?

I bet the lying lawyers is not one of them.

Hasn’t he said he lives in Baltimore? The city is mostly known worldwide for being the location of “The Wire”, not for high paying jobs and awesome educations.

Yes,i live in Baltimore, in canton. I work in Washington. But back to Baltimore… A very segregated city, just ask spook. My area is very young and white. Lots of DINK couples. There are some amazing areas a well as bad ones. overall a nice place to live. You should check it out sometime, I’ll buy you a natty boh and we’ll get crabs and oysters at bo brooks!

Been there, or spent a night there and went up to the Annapolis, the Chesapeake Bay, and Ocean City. The crabs are great but that old bay you all dose everything up with is garbage.

It’s one big incestuous happy family here between DoD and Lockheed, Raytheon, Northrup, all the various acronym-for-a-name contractors, and besides the Big Boys all of the thousands of small players in the Maryland / N Virginia Uncle Sugar money zone

DOD prime contractors makes K-Street look like choir boys.

It’s spelled NorthrOp, not Northrup. I worked there.

So it’s not that effective.
Every bullet counts. How many shooting victims were there AFTER the first responder showed up? No, Whitman doesn’t count as a victim.

A civilian ran in with the first cops, and nearly blew it all by accidentally shooting off his rifle before Whitman knew they were there.

That’s the safety of armed citizens? He was an inch away from getting the first (professional) responders blown away. The pros nowadays would never let him run in with them. It was clearly a mistake.

A civilian ran in with the first cops, and nearly blew it all by accidentally shooting off his rifle before Whitman knew they were there.
Whatever he did, worked. Whitman shot no one else after that.

I’m talking about more than just unions. Humans in general are more than happy to swoop in and profit off the sacrifices of others, as are animals around someone else’s kill. Sounds like you’re talking about a regulated environment where if you don’t pay you don’t get the benefit.

Ever been in a union shop in a “right to work” state?

-The union haters opt out of the union, and don’t pay dues.

-If there is a strike, they cross the picket lines and undercut the strike

-When the strike is over, they always get the same contract that the union guys get, including all of the “protections” the union guys get.

Basically, they are “Takers”, not “producers”. But I guess it’s okay to be a taker, as long as you are taking from the union. Some union people don’t like freeloaders either.

The non-union guys were always boot-strapping Randian, don’t need no union to negotiate my pay Republicans who hated the union. But they never turned down the extra benefits/money they got under a union contract.

Give it a break. Forced membership is un-American. I say it again, if the union is so wonderful the vast majority will join…even if there are some free loaders in the mix. If the majority are members and strike, the non-members can’t make the company operate now can they?

Unions have outlived their usefulness. If you don’t like your job/pay/benefits, get a different job. I didn’t hear anyone coming to the aid of employers who were putting in daycares, offering weeks of paid time off after just 90 days, and doing whatever they could to attract talent in the late 90’s. If the government weren’t busy destroying jobs, we’d have a competitive labor market again.

Do the non-union members actually get the same contract? I have no experience with this, but assumed non-union members would have to negotiate independantly. That’s how it should work IMO.

“Unions have outlived their usefulness.” David H. Koch 2012

putting in daycares, offering weeks of paid time off after just 90 days, and doing whatever they could to attract talent in the late 90’s.

You just don’t get it. Since then, USA has bled jobs to other countries. For the benefit of the rich.

If the government weren’t busy destroying jobs,

The government is destroying jobs but not for the reason the right is programmed to think. The government is destroying jobs because the rich want the government to send our jobs overseas and turn the USA into a banana republic? Why? Because in a banana republic, the rich get richer at the expense of the peons.

Unions have outlived their usefulness.

I’ll ask the question again: if you are anti-union, what (if anything) should be in place to protect workers?

Or do you believe that all workers should just fend for themselves individually?

If you truly believe that workers should not have protections of any sort, nor be allowed to organize, then are you really advocating we go back to the days of Sinclair’s “The Jungle” or Foxconn in China?

Just wondering.

the rich want the government to send our jobs overseas and turn the USA into a banana republic?
The only thing I am sure that these ‘rich’, whoever they are, really want is to maintain their wealth and accumulate ever more of it.
To have a banana republic, one must first be able to grow bananas. Bananas won’t grow in most of the USA.

these ‘rich’, whoever they are

“Whoever they are”? That’s a direct playbook line out of those who don’t want anyone to tax themselves (the rich). It’s like “since you can’t define them, you can’t tax them.” I ain’t buying that BS.

Bananas won’t grow in most of the USA.

That’s the beauty of the rich’s brainwashing on the benefits of globalization. With globalization, the USA can import its bananas and our banana-republic wealth inequality.

I ain’t buying that BS. Neither am I.

The 1% won’t be happy until we restore Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle” type labor conditions, maybe with a Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire thrown in here and there for sh*ts and giggles.

+100

It is entirely reasonable to be pro-union and also want to end the corruption that exists within unions. The thow the baby out with the bathwater mentality does not make sense to me.

Anyone here pro-labor but anti-union?

What’s your solution? Without unions, how do you protect workers from the greed of large corporations?

You bother because eventually they get it. I got one guy to STFU about posting about “the Socialist in the White House” when I asked if he took deductions for his kids and house.

I then asked him why I should help pay for his kids’ educations, when I don’t have kids.

Disclaimer: I’m a supporter of public education. I just wanted him to publicly admit his hypocrisy and quit spamming all of us with his “wisdom.” And he did.

The trajectory of a “news” story throughout the day is: linked on Drudge –> discussed on Rush Limbaugh –> discussed on Fox News that evening.

And the people who repost Drudge links are not paid trolls, they are actual koolaid drinkers.

We don’t have TeeVee but the best show on TeeVee (that we stream online) is C-SPAN’s Washington Journal. The callers are what make the show, they are not screened (except for profanities and racial slurs). This is a better window of what Americans believe (especially the residents of the former Confederacy) than any poll.

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
http://www.usdebtclock.org/ - 213k - Cached - Similar pages
US National Debt Clock : Real Time U.S. National Debt Clock.

Holiday greetings from the 1%.

We stole your future! We now control 99% of the wealth, because you keep electing our fluffers (in both parties). Enjoy your post-outsourcing $8/hour future. Here’s a SNAP card to go buy some fruitcake with, LOOSERS!

Well that has no Holiday cheer at all.

All your bases are belong to us!

Let me fix it for you.

“Holiday greetings from the 1%.”

We stole your future! We now control 99% of the wealth, because you keep electing our fluffers (in both parties). Enjoy your post-outsourcing $8/hour future. Here’s a SNAP card to go buy some fruitcake with, LOOSERS!
Fa la la la la, La la la la.

Google it. I did not make this up.

i know you didn’t make it up. you’re just repeating it.

Our nation has been a retail/consumer economy since around the 1920s.

call it what ever you want. consumption still can’t happen without production.

who and what ultimately pays for those factories?

the factories are built from wealth that has been previously saved. of course they profit from what they sell. no one would risk their money building those factories if there were no profit to be made. and consumers are only able to buy when they have something to sell, even if it’s just their labor.

consumption still can’t happen without production.

Can the production take place in China?

yes

Can the production take place in China?

yes

Then you’ve answered your own question:

so how can consumption be so much of the economy when what’s being consumed is production?

Then you’ve answered your own question:

no, you misinterpreted what i said.

there’s no economy without production somewhere. production is used for the final payment no mater what stages come in between.

china’s production benefits the world, but it benefits china more and it should.

we can produce nothing an be a service economy, but we still would depend on production occurring somewhere. we would have a second class economy compared to the producer, but it could be done. a service economy has to be based on production, even if it’s in another country.

production still has to happen first.

production still has to happen first.

But if it happens in China, that’s how we can have an economy that has more consumption than production. Which was your question.

No worries tj, we’ll pay for it later.

no, you misinterpreted what i said. tj

Everyone “misinterprets” what you say tj. Because you never say much - just one-line, vague stuff that makes no economic sense.

Like automation will enable us to pay our yearly living expenses with one week of work.

Say what?

Because you never say much - just one-line, vague stuff that makes no economic sense.

makes no sense to sniping, drive-by economic illiterate, like yourself.

tell us what ‘demand’ is. we all know what you think it is. it’s one of two words that starts with a ‘d’ or a ‘w’, right. let’s have the debate you don’t want to have.

Like automation will enable us to pay our yearly living expenses with one week of work.

why don’t you put it in full context?

i said if the production of energy, food, transportation and housing could be automated, that living expenses would become so incredibly cheap that you might eventually be able to pay for a year’s living expenses for a week’s worth of work.

you are one smarmy dude.

SCHWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!

if the production of energy, food, transportation and housing could be automated, that living expenses would become so incredibly cheap that you might eventually be able to pay for a year’s living expenses for a week’s worth of work. tj

Right. How do you attempt to seem like you understand anything about economics and/or political systems?

Look at your above sentence. Why would we be able to pay for a year’s living expenses for a week of work if WE did not own the means of production (the automation)? Why?

Would the owner’s of the means of the automation just give it away? Why, When, Where, How and on what planet?

Do you know what it’s called when the people own the means of production? Here’s a hint. It comes from the dictionary. (the same place the definition of “demand” comes from)

Socialism: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods merriam-webster

you are one smarmy dude.

I’m sure you find that much easier to process tj than realizing you consistently get intellectually punked.

Why would we be able to pay for a year’s living expenses for a week of work if WE did not own the means of production (the automation)? Why?

why? i’ve said many times before right here ‘why’. because automation increase the value of our labor which increases the value of our currency, which means that it buys more.

Would the owner’s of the means of the automation just give it away?

no, they’d get whatever profit they could from it. the increasing value of our currency would be a consequence of that.

Do you know what it’s called when the people own the means of production?

better than you do.

than realizing you consistently get intellectually punked.

anybody with more than two brain cells to rub together is laughing at you.

automation increase the value of our labor which increases the value of our currency, which means that it buys more.

You are babbling again. Please explain in a coherent paragraph how automation (absent Socialism’s plank of the people owning the means of production and resources) could lead most Americans to a place where we could work a week and have it pay for a year’s living expenses. You can’t because it is FANTASY LAND, 12 year-old, dogmatic, jive gibberish.

anybody with more than two brain cells to rub together is laughing at you.

But the ones who have more than 100 million brain-cells are laughing at YOU.

Please explain

i did explain it, you just can’t grasp it.

in a real debate you have to go in with what you know. you can’t be running to encyclopedias or dictionaries. the reason is because they require you to own what you say. ‘demand’ is a simple thing, let’s discuss it. how would you define it?

i did explain it,

In a pig’s eye tj. You’re not even close. Because you can’t explain it; because it’s jive.

Again:

Please explain, in a coherent manner, how automation (absent Socialism’s definition of the people owning the means of production) could lead to the majority Americans working a week for a year’s living expenses. And in the same light, how could we even get to a place where the automation and resources could become so cheap and labor so dear that a week’s work would profit a year’s living expenses for the majority of Americans.

Your premise is so outlandish, so off-base, I can’t believe one would even seriously propose it.

Here, let me help. Here’s a dictionary definition of “explain”. Its in the same dictionary that has the definition of “demand”.

Explain: : to show the logical development or relationships of
merriam-webster

RioAmericanInBrasil + tj = HOUSING BUBBLE BLOG FOOD FIGHT!!!

tj,

Not that I am blameless, but don’t feed the troll.

Not that I am blameless,but don’t feed the troll.

I’m no troll but that’s good advice for tj Blue Sky.

Maybe you’ve learned and proven (as has tj) that you can’t keep up? That’s why you’re both seemingly reduced to one line quick swipes with no logic supporting them?

I’ve asked tj a question again and again that requires a coherent answer: (maybe you can help him Blue?)

“Please explain, in a coherent manner, how automation (absent Socialism’s definition of the people owning the means of production) could lead to the majority Americans working a week for a year’s living expenses. And in the same light, how could we even get to a place where the automation and resources could become so cheap and labor so dear that a week’s work would profit a year’s living expenses for the majority of Americans.”

I think not Blue Sky.

Not that I am blameless, but don’t feed the troll.

i suppose, but since i’m considered an extreme right winger, and he’s an extreme left winger (which he’ll probably deny), it might have been an interesting debate.

i’m not going to waste Ben’s bandwidth going over the same things over and over.

in the meantime, maybe he’ll change his mind and accept the debate, just out of curiosity about what i might say.. (unless of course he thinks won the ‘debate’).

(unless of course he thinks won the ‘debate’)

Of course I won the debate. Because it deals with Economics 101. Because you can’t explain how automation could lead to the majority of Americans working a week for a year’s living expenses.

You can’t do it because it’s unsupported, fantasy-land nonsense.

“the factories are built from wealth that has been previously saved.”

Incorrect. Factories are built from capital loans based on projections of future sales.

As are most businesses at all levels.

Factories are built from capital loans based on projections of future sales.

yes, it’s called a business plan. and where do think the money for the loan comes from?

Of course the debate has been won. You were insulted and responded, that’s all it takes. That is what trolling is. The only useful ideas are the ones that upset you. The beauty of the internet.

since i’m considered an extreme right winger

Not even remotely close.

Of course I won the debate.

you don’t even know how to debate. you think that stubbornness is the winning quality. you think that repetition wins.

how can you think you won when you refuse to answer a question? you ignore answers i give you in my own words, and sling a dictionary around thinking you’ve won something.

lets arrange a real debate on some kind of airwave on neutral ground, where we have to give immediate answers to each other’s questions. it that type of set up, you wouldn’t be able to get away with your hit and run tactics and your ignoring the question tactic. you’d have to have some kind of answer or everyone would see you as a fool.

you wouldn’t last 5 minutes in a real debate with me.

@Rio

one more thing. look up schiff and o’donnel on youtube. o’donnel didn’t let schiff get a word in edgewise. i suppose you think that o’donnel won that debate. but if you said that o’donnel won the debate to an experience debater, they’d laugh you out of the building. you don’t know how to debate because you don’t know how to construct a good argument or even know what the argument is about.

how can you think you won when you refuse to answer a question?

That’s what I say. You babble jive tj (tj - “Talking Jive) - one line Rush talking point nonsense.

Again for the 10th time:

“Explain, in a coherent manner, how automation could lead to most Americans working a week for a year’s living expenses.”

You support nothing you say because it is unsupportable.

Not even remotely close.

but Dusty mi amigo, i am an extreme right winger. i don’t shrink from what i am.

if one knows that freedom and free markets are the only things that truly work, then one is considered an extreme right winger. it’s simple. freedom is everything good. and freedom isn’t anarchy, freedom needs the rule of law to exist. the rule of law that was in our constitution.

i don’t shrink from what i am. tj

You just shrink from what you write.

You can’t explain in a paragraph how automation could lead to the majority of Americans working a week for a year’s living expenses.

Thinking Right-Wingers would be ashamed.

o’donnel didn’t let schiff get a word in edgewise (on youtube)

tj,
You are lost. A “word in edgewise”?

You are comparing this written blog to youtube?

This is a blog….you WRITE your word in edgewise. How could someone not let your word get in edgewise? You don’t understand the difference?

won the debate to an experience debater,

Like one who knows the difference between a written blog and youtube?

Good grief.

You just shrink from what you write.

just look above, birdbrain. i answered your questions. the answers won’t be any different, no matter how many times you ask.

lol… birdbrain.

the answers won’t be any different, no matter how many times you ask.

I know. Because you are incapable of defending nonsense.

As if automation could lead to one week’s work paying for a year’s expenses. Good lord.

I know.

yet you keep asking the same already answered question. you think that people will think i haven’t answered you, if you keep asking the same question. your tactics are juvenile.

yet you keep asking the same already answered question.

tj,
Relax. This is a question you could never answer because you don’t even know what the question entails.

“How could automation lead to most Americans working a week for a year’s living expenses? How could we even get to a place where the automation and resources could become so cheap and labor so dear that a week’s work would profit a year’s living expenses for the majority of Americans?”

You can’t answer it because your premise is muddled rhetoric based on a non-existent theory of nothing. There is no “there” there. It’s just weak hands grasping at nothing.

What you think you’ve answered is far below the level of the question asked.

No, they cannot. That’s why we keep increasing taxes and home values so non-white end up moving out of Austin.

“And those of us who don’t watch TeeVee are smarter than all of you.”

If you don`t watch TeeVee you must get a lot of information from the internet. You have probably never seen this commercial either.

State Farm® - State of Disbelief (French Model) - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmx4twCK3_I - 235k - Cached - Similar pages
Jun 28, 2012 …

Yeah, we forgot how Racist® whitey is until CNN kindly reminded us after (half-Peruvian) George Zimmerman wasted Trayvon “Skittles” Martin down in Floriduh.

If anyone in this country actually wants a race war, it is the libtard mainstream media.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/zimmerman-sues-nbc-over-edited-911-recording-in-trayvon-martin-death/2012/12/06/91901cc8-3fe9-11e2-bca3-aadc9b7e29c5_story.html

Rio,

Two things:

1. You assume I am a Republican. That’s a big assumption.

2. I think your nose is growing longer and your pants are getting warm.

Beyond those two things, it doesn’t change the reality of the situation. You are deflecting away from the point. The legacy media chooses who is right, who the winner is and will protect the winners from looking bad. That is why there is no coverage of the labor union shenanigans in Lansing.

I think your nose is growing longer

Ryan,
You protest too much and you ignore reality.

your pants are getting warm

Whatever dude. I live in Rio.

The legacy media chooses who is right

The Republican Party has institutionalized covert racism in its recent campaigns on a level much more damaging to USA’s unity than any “legacy media” could ever do.

Comparatively, labor union “shenanigans” are inconsequential.

Inconsequential.

It’s all a matter of opinion.

Considering the vast majority of Americans get their news from the legacy media. Regardless of what the message may be coming from a political campaign, the legacy media decides what the message is. Take your dog whistle as an example or picking apart statements about “opportunity and discipline in the inner city” and TELLING the public that this is racism. Because, well, because the legacy media has decided that is what it is.

In addition, you clearly refuse to address the Lansing action with anything more than a dismissive statement because the media coverage of said event is indefensible. I understand though, it’s not in your character to admit that your liberal masters in the media are wrong.

**My first post didn’t seem to take

This is a matter of opinion.

The vast majority of Americans get their news from the legacy media. Regardless of what campaign message is created by a political party, the actual message these people receive is the message the legacy media gives them. Take your dog whistle for example or pulling apart and twisting statements about ‘bringing opportunity and discipline to the inner city’, it’s racism because, well, because the legacy media tells them that it is.

the vast majority of Americans get their news from the legacy media. Regardless of what the message may be coming from a political campaign,

You’ve got to be joking if you don’t think that the racist message coming from “a political campaign” was not reported on “the legacy media”.

Dude…..I heard their crap for months, 5000 miles away.

If you compare that to a few union guys calling n..g..r in Lansing, you are biased.

it’s not in your character to admit that your liberal masters in the media are wrong.

Right Dude,

I have American “Liberal Masters” in the media?

I have no masters. I have a voice but I’m not dependent on any American media masters. I’ve made that clear by the choices I’ve made in my life.

I’m saying the campaign material was covered. I’m also saying that the message is broadcast to the people explicitly TELLING them its racist, not letting them decide for themselves. You know: the whole we report and you decide-thing the media is supposed to do?

Again, you refuse to see it for what it is. The media takes statements about inner city communities social problems, twists it into racism to fit the narrative and hits the public with it like a fire hose. In Lansing, you have violent protest by union workers; all we hear is deafening silence from the legacy media. It doesn’t fit the narrative, that’s why it isn’t discussed. Had those violent protests involved Tea Party people, the legacy media would be charging the fire hose.

We looked in Avalon Park when we first moved down here 7+ years ago and I still get updates when houses go on sale over there. Doesn’t seem like much seems to go on sale which is weird because you are saying there is so much empty housing!! Must be the slow foreclosure process!

Over in Northlake Park by the airport, we have gone from renting an apartment, to renting a house (couple got divorced, never moved back in an the house went into FC) and now we are renting a townhouse.

Whenever a house goes up for sale, it is being snapped up within a day or two. All the “homeowners” and of course the local realtard think happy days are here again. It’s sickening.

If they were terminated without following the rules, as spelled out per the UAW contract, an arbitrator will honor the grievance, every time.

Were these guys on the clock? On company property? Who said so? The local media? And we all know how trustworthy they are.

Unions aren’t just about pay. It’s about putting a rulebook in place to, among other things, prevent Little Hitlers from terminating people without cause or due process. In a union shop, you don’t have to worry about some little pissant kicking you out the door, because he didn’t like you for some arbitrary reason.

Knowing how some of these things are settled, they probably got their jobs back, but didn’t get any back pay.

“Were these guys on the clock? On company property? Who said so? The local media? And we all know how trustworthy they are.”

This has the local news story. They say they were tipped off by someone in the plant who did not want to be working around heavy machinery with people who were smoking pot and drinking at lunch.The video shows them at “lunch” and then walking back in to the plant.

Chrysler workers canned for drinking on the job reinstated | Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/08/chrysler-workers-canned-for-drinking-on-job-reinstated/ - 41k - Cached - Similar pages
5 days ago … Photo shows a Chrysler worker drinking while on the job. … Video showed them in a park during the work day, drinking alcohol from bottles covered in brown paper bags and smoking what appeared to be marijuana. With the …

Unions aren’t just about pay. It’s about putting a rulebook in place to, among other things, prevent Little Hitlers from terminating people without cause or due process. In a union shop, you don’t have to worry about some little pissant kicking you out the door, because he didn’t like you for some arbitrary reason.

Well said. I’ve had some jerky bosses, and one in particular that was emotionally unstable (and not too intelligent either).

If it were a nonunion job, she would have fired half of us just because she was threatened by anyone who was either smarter than she was or because they didn’t blindly agree with everything she said.

She left before doing any major damage.

Chrysler reinstated more than a dozen workers who’d been caught by a local Detroit TV station drinking and smoking pot on their lunch break

They were on their lunch break. But let’s get real. How many CEO’s drink at lunch? How many Wall Street wonderboys do blow at lunch?

This is a yawner - an anti-union, right-wing blow-up propaganda piece of nothing.

She left before doing any major damage.
Lots of bosses like that who DO major damage with their stupidity, to the point of destroying their own businesses. That is just human nature.
This is a yawner - an anti-union, right-wing blow-up propaganda piece of nothing. Beg to differ with you. This is a significant item illustrating a significant & recurrent problem with arbitration / union contracts. Arbitrators and unions can be in the wrong too. It’s also human nature, and is also being used as propaganda.

This is a significant item illustrating a significant & recurrent problem with arbitration

No. You have cameras everywhere nowadays. A few stories here and there of a couple dozen people does not illustrate “a significant & recurrent problem with arbitration/ union contracts.”

It’s not even a close call.

“GM and Chrysler’s biggest problems were too many crappy products.”

Maybe that`s why those Union dudes were getting stoned and drunk at lunch.

We got no input man, and these vehicles we are tightening almost all of the bolts on are crappy.

But the union does have an influence on the quality of production. Pot smoking assemblers would make more errors.

Pot smoking assemblers would make more errors.

Link?

GM made great, reliable products from the mid 1990’s until about 2005. Not sure what happened then, but it seems to have gone down hill from there. What killed GM was not their product line, it was their costs. They wouldn’t have been the number 1 auto maker in the world if they made bad products.

Chrysler was a different story. They were sold and resold and never really made a spectacular product.

GM made great, reliable products from the mid 1990’s until about 2005.

Really? Except for their V8s, which are still the best in the world IMO, they peaked in 1967 and it’s been all downhill since. But that’s based on cars they make that I’d actually want to own, rather than statistical reliability data.

“……mid 1990s until about 2005…..”

Not mentioned: the 1970 thru 1995 time period, when the General foisted amazing products like the Vega, Monza, A-Cars,
the Caddy V-8/6/4, Explode-o-matic diesels, the Caddy “Northstar” system with it’s excessive oil consumption and blown head gaskets, the 1979-82 Corvettes, aka “Two-door Buicks”, “Throttle Body” fuel injection………

Or, to set the dial on the “Way-back” machine even farther….

The early Corvairs, the 1966 Toronado (a 400 horsepower car, with “Stop-in-the-same-county-if-you’re-lucky” brakes), Pontiac “high performance” engines with cast-iron connecting rods, Mono-leaf springs and 10-bolt rear diffs in hi-po Camaros……..

Need I go on?

That Vega was a classic oil burnin POS.

GM made great, reliable products from the mid 1990’s until about 2005.
====

GM made horrible products in that time frame. The best products they made were a few full sized trucks and SUVs that get piss poor gas mileage. Their worst is a tie between all their cars.

Dodge had a 318 engine my father swore by and had in his trucks, the trucks would fall apart around the engine after 10 years or so. I had a few F-150s that had that straight 6 in where the same thing happened.

Both great engines I guess that`s why they don`t make them anymore.

Chrysler was a different story. They were sold and resold and never really made a spectacular product.

The Chrysler 300/Dodge Charger is a pretty good car. It got some of the benefits of Chrysler’s short marriage to Mercedes. I just don’t much like the styling of either, though I’d buy one if the price were right.

What killed GM was not their product line, it was their costs.

It’s easier to compete globally when you are a car company in a country with nationalized health-care and nationalized pensions.

That Vega was a classic oil burnin POS.

My friend had a Vega that got 4th gear scratch. Yea!

He used to put it in third at a dead stop to watch it “hop”.

(I used to give him my used oil to save him some bucks.)

Seriously Alpha? Would you want a car assembled by someone who was high? I can’t believe the union defended those workers.

Except for their V8s, which are still the best in the world IMO

uh huh. And you’ll never understand this until you’ve owned V8’s from all three. A GM V8 blows the doors off Cryco and Ford and has for as long as I remember.

Chrysler should have gone out of existence a long time ago. Then no one could today be arguing about the relationship between Chrysler and its unions.

“Chrysler should have gone out of existence a long time ago.” 2012, CEO of VW.

“right-to-work, Lucky Duckies making $12/hour”

Toyota offers retirement incentives to 2,000 U.S. employees

Reuters – Fri, Nov 30, 2012 4:53 PM EST

(Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp said on Friday it is offering retirement incentives to about 2,000 U.S. workers, or 10 percent of its employees in the country, in an effort to manage attrition of its aging work force.

About 1,600 workers at the Japanese automaker’s Georgetown, Kentucky plant, or about a quarter of the work force there, are eligible, Toyota spokesman Mike Goss said.

The rest of the eligible employees work at plants and offices throughout the United States, he said.

“We’re trying to spread out the impact of the attrition over some time as opposed to the risk of them all walking away at the same time,” Goss said.

Toyota’s plant employees are not unionized, but receive similar pay and benefits as those represented at General Motors Co(GM), Ford Motor Co(NYS:F) and Chrysler Group LLC by the United Auto Workers. Chrysler is controlled by Italy’s Fiat(MIL:F).

The retirement offer also will allow Toyota to reduce manufacturing labor costs as veteran workers typically earn about $26 an hour, compared with starting pay of around $16 an hour.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-offers-retirement-incentives-2-215330913.html - 168k -

“Toyota’s plant employees are not unionized, but receive similar pay and benefits as those represented at General Motors Co(GM), Ford Motor Co(NYS:F) and Chrysler Group LLC by the United Auto Workers. Chrysler is controlled by Italy’s Fiat(MIL:F).”

Stop posting lies. Non-union shops pay nothing and offer no benefits. They, not society itself, are driving us to country that deserves everything and values nothing.

Not to mention that non-union shops are obviously racist.

SO not my style!

The holiday season is a bit of a pain for me. The worst part is all the glitzy magazine and newspaper articles geared to the socialite set, about holiday entertaining and how to juggle all the party invites. Cannot relate.

I take the above statement about our local media back. Our local alt-weekly is hinting at the shadow inventory. Key quote:

Blighted Houses

The real-estate bust may not have turned Tucson into a ghost town, but it did create a fair number of haunted houses—or at least homes that appear to be haunted. These dilapidated dwellings have been long neglected and vacant, either as the victims of foreclosure or after being simply left to rot by families who could no longer afford to keep up payments.

Point of history: In the late 1800s, a lot of big, Victorian-style houses were abandoned. If you recall haunted houses from your childhood, a lot of them were those old Victorians.

Maybe this is more appropriate?

“I know shit’s bad right now with all that starvin’ bullshit. And the dust storms. And we runnin’ out of french fries and burrito coverings. But I got a solution.”

- President Camacho