The Housing Bubble

Okay, then I’ll add another one:

5. Choose a career that is a bit hard, one that not just anyone off the street can do, one where knowledge and experience counts a lot.

Eliminate HB1 visas. It’s all a con to destroy American Citizens jobs in their own country.
It’s a sham that anyone would claim that Americans can’t produce enough doctors, nurses, engineers, scientists or whatever kind of workers are needed in industry.
We have lobbying groups that have supported shortages to maintain higher wages.
It’s a very easy way to STOP the take-over of American industries by foreigners.
However, this will be considered “racist” and America, after all, belongs to the “world”, not Americans.

6. Are you transportable?

No. Being a “citizen” means I am permanently rooted here. That’s the reason for citizenship.
If we simply erase all the borders, then anyone is transplantable to anywhere else.
Let us all worship Gaia, together, as we share in the “unity” of the One-World.

Dio, just who do you think these One-Worlders are, who are lobbying for H1-B, lobbying against tarriffs, and preaching closed borders in public while promoting open borders in private?

Eliminate HB1 visas.

I agree.

However, this will be considered “racist”

Why would eliminating HB1 visas be considered racist? America is now only 65% white. Eliminating HB1 visas would be protecting the jobs of many races in America.

“I want my country (’s jobs) back”

Why would you want to limit the number of highly-skilled workers available to contribute to the American economy?

Why would you want to limit the number of highly-skilled workers available to contribute to the American economy?

Because long-term, producing more Americans doing those highly-skilled jobs contributes much more to the American economy than wage-lowering, foreign hired guns.

H1-Bs are not highly skilled. There is a separate visa catagory for highly skilled workers.

H1-B visa applicants are not required to even have a college degree.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

But to reiterate my point, how is it in the U.S. interest to make it difficult for highly-skilled foreign workers to gain access to opportunities here?

Foreign nationals with extraordinary ability in Sciences, Arts, Education, Business or Athletics can qualify for an “O” visa.

I don’t know, what could go wrong if 100 million Chinese workers were imported and replaced all jobs held by native born Americans?

Isn’t the VISA thing a way to pay lower wages? Who would lobby for that? Unemployed US citizens using their expired unemployment benefits?

“…producing more Americans doing those highly-skilled jobs contributes much more to the American economy than wage-lowering, foreign hired guns.”

What’s preventing American young people from obtaining the requisite skills and education to do these jobs?

Owing so much in student loans for obtaining the requisite skills and education that they can’t afford to work for H1-B wages?

“…producing more Americans doing those highly-skilled jobs contributes much more to the American economy than wage-lowering, foreign hired guns.”

What’s preventing American young people from obtaining the requisite skills and education to do these jobs?

Supply and Demand. Cheaper foreign worker visas lower the demand for training high-skilled Americans because they increase the supply of foreign skilled workers.

Off-shoring lowers the demand for manufacturing workers.

Illegal workers lower the demand for American workers. Supply and demand.

Money.

American students will require spending $20k per year to get the same degree that an Indian can get from Indian Institute of Technology for $500 per year.

Throw in the fact that H1-Bs are tied to the company that hired them and if terminated must find work within 30 days or leave the country, you have a very “compliant” workforce.

I will give you a quote I heard from a boss:

(after giving me a pile of resumes) “Pick an Asian one, I can get them cheaper”.

H1-B visa applicants are not required to even have a college degree.

Not True, H-1B requires a minimum 4 year college degree to be placed in the lowest EB3 category. EB2 for Masters and EB1 includes the PhD professors who publish papers.

Btw, IIT in India is at par with MIT/Princeton/Caltech of USA. I googled and found that it is very hard to get into IIT. Even Americans cannot compete to get into those colleges easily. They were in fact established by USA and highly subsidised by Indian Govt.

Othern than IITs there are many other C grade universites that produce many H-1Bs that we today in USA.

(after giving me a pile of resumes) “Pick an Asian one, I can get them cheaper”.

H1-Bs: Foreign workers taking American jobs is a problem that ONLY government regulation can solve.

Anti-regulation people: Please explain how the free-market alone could EVER solve this problem. In the absence of government regulation prohibiting it, how could the free-market alone keep foreign workers from taking American’s jobs?

Anti-regulation people: Please explain how the free-market alone could EVER solve this problem. In the absence of government regulation prohibiting it, how could the free-market alone keep foreign workers from taking American’s jobs?

I’m not anti-regulation. Obviously the only way the free market can solve this problem is for the costs to equalize. In a bad way for Americans.

Not passport but a work visa is enough.

Once you have the passport, they can’t say no, because you are a citizen. Visas can be denied and revoked. And work visas can be next to impossible to get. Just because we hand out the H1-B’s like Halloween candy doesn’t mean that other countries are as generous.

True.

I think having an American maid and chauffeur will be a status symbol in the future.

Your nieces and nephews will always have a job.

Funny!

But there is a very high probability none of the kids in question will end up working as maids or chauffeurs…

Unlikely

Bertold Wiesner used to be an actor but as one of the new breed of super-butlers who can command salaries of more than £100,000 a year, his stage is the world.

With his matinee-idol good looks, the 33-year-old from Woodbridge in Suffolk maintains his actor training was “perfect” for becoming a butler.

“You wear a metaphorical mask. It’s the best role you’ll ever have in life because it’s 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-20723652

Sara Vestin, director of the recruitment agency Bespoke Bureau, said: “It is the accent - Queen’s English - the etiquette and status of the British butler and his style that they are buying into.”

A British butler, a French chef, a Brazilian mistress, and an American…umm…

Security guard?

It still doesn’t change the fact that in the 90’s, you could get 6-8 employees in India for the cost of 1 in America. Now it’s more like 2-3. Not a good trend for India. I know people outsourcing to South America and other countries looking for that super-sweet low-low pay rates they used to get from India.

India is to expensive for IT and call centres. They are looking for cheaper sites. Egypt and the Philippines are often talked about.

Egypt is on hold at present, but if they manage to work out the politics, expect a call from Chuck in Alexandria next time you talk to a call centre.

India also has an inflation rate of 8 or 10%.

What about inflation in US? Milk is goung to be double of what it is today Jan1st. It was half the price 3-4 years back. Same with majority of food items. Look at Gas prices. Look at all commodities.

Except Apple products, everything is expensive. I think US has big infaltion but not excepted by Govt. due to raises tied in COLA, SS and other entitlements.

(Where) Did you go to school, Martin?

“If you have a more protected economy, the rising standard of living for everyone would make for much better customers which would increase the shareholder value.”

Wouldn’t protectionism reduce the value of U.S. production, thereby decreasing shareholder value?

I’m not following your logic.

Wouldn’t protectionism reduce the value of U.S. production, thereby decreasing shareholder value?

Protectionism would increase the value of the US worker’s production. (wages) This would increase the demand because the workers would have more money. Customers with more money would increase sales. Increased sales increases shareholder value. That Forbes article explains part of it.

The USA is still the largest market in the world. Not gutting the wages of the largest market in the world is one way take care of shareholder value.

“Protectionism would increase the value of the US worker’s production.”

Let’s examine that statement objectively.

Worker A = marginally qualified American worker.

Worker B = highly qualified foreign worker who would gladly contribute the value of his production to the U.S. economy, if offered the chance.

Isn’t Worker B’s production quite likely to be more valuable than worker A’s production?

Isn’t Worker B’s production quite likely to be more valuable than worker A’s production?

You’re thinking short term. Like when someone says gold is “crashing” when it’s down $20 on the day but has been going up for 10 years.

That statement was not just about foreign visa workers but, yes the skilled foreign worker gives a short term bump to USA’s economy.

However, if the USA did not allow as many as the cheaper hired gun foreign workers, the USA would produce and train more American skilled workers. In the long-term, this would boost the US economy and wages more than cheap foreign hired guns. Why would USA produce the American skilled workers needed? Because of the laws of supply and demand.

The entire premise of the article is destroyed by this statement alone:

focusing attention solely on shareholder value in the short term tended to lead to the management to do things that destroyed long-term shareholder value.

“Long term.” Jack Welch is worried about long-term of GE? Sure, only AFTER he made is pile. Coke leveled off? I’m sure the management knew in advance and sold accordingly. Bain Capital kills the goose that lays the golden eggs? No problem, just extract the gold and move on to the next goose.

In an area of yearly bonuses, quarterly numbers, and micro-second trading, “long-term” is for the little people with the 401K. For the people at the cocktail parties, capitalism is working just fine.

The entire premise of the article is destroyed by this statement alone:

“…focusing attention solely on shareholder value in the short term tended to lead to the management to do things that destroyed long-term shareholder value.”…

It does not destroy the premise. It IS the premise. Now in order to destroy the premise, you would have to prove shareholder value is higher now than it would have been if management had acted in the company’s long-term interests instead of trying to maximize shareholder value.

Of course you can’t, therefore the premise deserves to be looked at seriously.

My point was, the premise doesn’t really matter. Let’s say that long-term thinking DOES increase long-term value. So what? The question remains whether to cash out short-term value now, or to wait until the long-term thinking kicks in and cash out a little more later.

Do you want one cookie today or can you wait for two cookies tomorrow?
Would you kill the goose that laid one golden egg a day because it had a dozen eggs of gold inside?
When the short-term cash already buys you a second yacht, is it worth it to wait around for cash that will buy you a third yacht?
Will you live long enough to reap the rewards of long-term thinking? Recall that these execs are generally over the age of 55 and have a yacht.

It’s all the same experiment, isn’t it? The answer every time is the same: gimme gimme gimme NOW.

My point was, the premise doesn’t really matter. Let’s say that long-term thinking DOES increase long-term value. So what?

The point of the article was that the question should not be; so what?

The question should be; So…………..what?

The premise is that maximizing shareholder value is one of the tenets that is corroding capitalism. This cannot be changed easily within the current structure of American Capitalism. The whole point is: So……………what? What needs to be changed withing the current structure of failing American Capitalism to insure Capitalism’s future.

This is why the defenders of our current form of American Capitalism have it all wrong when they think they are defending Capitalism from the “Socialists” who see that American Capitalism is eating itself alive. Blindly defending American Capitalism is doing Capitalism no favor when what they are defending is cannibalizing itself before our very eyes.

Blindly defending American Capitalism is doing Capitalism no favor when what they are defending is cannibalizing itself before our very eyes.

Agreed. It would be interesting to see how future historians review the self destruction of the United States.

+10

I have said it here before, but it bears repeating. When I took the class in taxation of executive compensation, the practitioner half of the team teaching the class told us flat out that our job was to make sure that there was no chance at all that our client would fail to get the maximum bonus allowed under the contract. He said there was no excuse for not getting a contract that was so lenient that the exec would always get the max compensation no matter how badly they failed at their job.

He said there was no excuse for not getting a contract that was so lenient that the exec would always get the max compensation no matter how badly they failed at their job.

It sure does seem to bear out in practice. CEOs who royally screw up walk away with lotto jackpot sized severance packages.

Why are you disseminating disinformation again?

What disinformation?

It isn’t me stating that $400-$750K houses are being “snapped up” in the Washington area.

It isn’t me stating that the three wealithiest counties in the United States are all in the D.C. area.

‘It isn’t me stating that $400-$750K houses are being “snapped up” in the Washington area.’

But how many of these are bought by all-cash foreign investors, hedge funds or other outsiders, rather than local end-users?

I mentioned a co-worker who bought a house for a bit over $600K over the weekend. If his household income is over $125K, I’ll eat my hat. The nice one I bought in London when I was still working for a law firm. I looked at a mortgage calculator over the weekend. If you assume 20% down (not idea if he did or not) and therefore no PMI, his PIT (don’t know what the insurance is) about $3000. With his wife staying home so they have no childcare costs other than private nursery school when that becomes relevant (the public schools will be more than fine in his area), it is doable. Not easy, but doable. Barely.

So, just because you think that everyone is making X amount because that is what you have to make to buy a house that costs Y amount, doesn’t mean it is true. You are making a big assumption.

“If his household income is over $125K, I’ll eat my hat.”

Don’t expect our resident propagandists to accept your figures.

Insurance on a $600K house is probably $120-$150/month. It may be lower in tony Bethesda, where more of the house value is in the uninsured land, not the insured structure.

The disconnect, MacBeth, is in the education of the workers and the fact that these are usually two-income households. Not the location. Even in flyover, two engineer or lawyer spouses will easily clear $170K.

Once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Starting civy/env or any other discipline is well under $60k/yr.

Women in engineering are few and far between.

Yes Ral, a starting engineer is $60K at least. Add in a lawyer wife and now you’re at $140K, even in flyover. Add in a few years experience and you’re easily at $170K. Just like I said.

Those households who make $250K in DC aren’t usually starting either. Maybe this is “rare,” but the $250K DC households aren’t uncommon too, at least in non-management.

“Yes Ral, a starting engineer is $60K at least. Add in a lawyer wife and now you’re at $140K, even in flyover.”

I’m in eastern Washington’s flyover country, and a fledgling engineer starts at roughly $50k/yr and quickly moves up to $80k/yr if they’re bright, and that’s about where you will top-out unless you move into management. Most of these $80k/yr engineers have the stay at home wife if they have children. All possible because a new 1600-sqft 3/2 spec ranch house is roughly $150k and slipping albeit slowly.

Yes Ral, a starting engineer is $60K at least.

WRONG again.

You seem to forget who you’re talking to.

Not sure if it’s all propaganda, I work in the private sector and have no pension plan. So I pay local, state and federal taxes to make sure people retire not only better than I do, but also sooner. Why should I be happy about that?

Because you, too, have the opportunity to apply for a government job and accept lower pay than you would get for the same work in the private sector as part of a package deal with a pension and other bennies…

I actually think a lot of the Phd scientists often get stuck with a top pay of scale of GS12 or GS 13 unless they become managers and end up having to spend a lot of their time doing secretarial work.

Nobody gets $250K on one salary. Even the senior executive service people are required to make less than members of the House of Representatives. And the rank and file has to make less than SES in most circumstances.

I’ve heard of heads of big police departments making serious cash. School system superintendants too. Doesn’t happen in federal service. There might be a few places that actually have overtime that could do it, but we don’t get overtime in my division. Exceptions have to be approved by a woman who is 4 levels of management above me.

“…unless they become managers and end up having to spend a lot of their time doing secretarial work.”

Very insightful comment, from someone who actually knows what she is talking about.

Too bad we still have a bunch know-nothing propagandists on the HBB spreading disinformation…

Polly,
Nobody gets $250K on one salary.

Have you looked at the salaries of college professors around DC area? there are at least 5-6 big universites and most professors in JHU, UMD, Georgetown, GWU, GMU, AU etc. get paid more than 200K for 9 months in Business, Medical, and Engineering fields at least. That itself says all these are close to thousands of people making more than 250K per year (with 33% extra pay for 3 summer months). Most live in very affluent areas like Bethesda, CHevy CHase etc.

Similarly, a lot of IT contractors make close to $110-$130 per hour. They also account for tens of thousands in DC area. A salary of $110 per hour equals a salary of close to $220K per year with benefits.

Long story short, many people make good money in DC area on a single paycheck. I have not even counted tons of medical professionals in so many hospitals, doctors in practice and even small businesses.

We were talking about federal government salaries. Not contractors. Not private sector lawyers, etc. Not university profs. Look up the GS tables for the Washington area. They are readily available.

“Similarly, a lot of IT contractors make close to $110-$130 per hour. They also account for tens of thousands in DC area. A salary of $110 per hour equals a salary of close to $220K per year with benefits. “

My guess is that a lot of IT contractors are billed at $110-130 per hour. If they are 1099 hourly, the company that contracts with the government gets about 15-40% of their rate. If they are W-2 hourly, the contracting company gets somewhere around 40-50% of their rate. If they are salaried, the contracting company probably takes around 50-60% of their rate. YMMV, DOE. Those who get more of the rate either have rare skills or know someone at the contracting company who is willing to give them a bigger cut.

I did a quick Dice job search for SQL and found pay of 44K to 150K for 5+ years experience, with most in the 80-110K range.

“Her skills and qualifications are not that hard to find.”

From her handle, I’d guess she’s a chemist, but aside from that, I have little idea about her qualifications or duties.

Do you?

Analyzing lab samples is not PhD work. Not remotely close.

To assuage your guilt you buy into the line of BS that globalization is a good thing

No. I was there. Regular people bought into Globalization because the propaganda pounded it into peoples’ heads that we’d make MORE MONEY because it would open markets to American products. And because it would lead to more productive American jobs.

There was NO sense of guilt because we had “too much stuff”. We wanted globalization because we wanted MORE STUFF.

Jsut for the people who don’t read too carefully, President Obama’s second inaugural address hasn’t happened yet.

I know the second address hasn’t been given yet; I didn’t miss the sarcasm. The quote though, which I didn’t know was Max, is the most socialist thing I’ve read, IIRC. We’ll be doomed if that’s the path forward.

You didn’t know? That is the single most famous Marx quote ever. How can you miss that? You don’t even have to have read any of the source material to know that one.

“You didn’t know? That is the single most famous Marx quote ever. How can you miss that? You don’t even have to have read any of the source material to know that one.”

That quote didn’t resemble drivel–definitely thought out. I’m serious when I say that I’ve never seen that quote before. I’m still a hands-on sort of person despite my education, and I probably wouldn’t impress you. Trust me, love, you will never see me on Jeopardy.

Look at the date — 2nd inaugural address, which is 25 days from now. The squad is being snarky.

Thanks
I agree with you that the rich are just as dependent on welfare as the poor. Your posts helped me see that. and they have the clout to keep it that way.

Just trying to inspire debate, no offense towards you.

But saying “the proles love some football” seems a little classist to me. Especially, by your own description, since your father depends on the entitlement system to pad his estate.

Would you be prouder of pops if he bucked the system and paid his employees living wages?

“American’s blind acceptance of the “job creators” and “bootstrapper” memes.”

Similar to the religion-like adherence to the housing lies like throwing 30 years of income at rapidly depreciating assets like a house and paying interest on it to boot.

That worked(15 year note, max) for our predecessors. The difference? Housing prices weren’t grossly inflated.

And you can always count on a liar responding with “but we can afford it”. That’s a complete lie and distortion of the truth when you have to borrow. When you borrow, you CAN’T afford it.

RAL, I agree with probably 80-90% of what you say. I just think that sometimes it does make sense to buy a house. Of course, this does not mean a 90’s or early 00’s era McMansion made out of match sticks and chinese wallboard and situated in a far-flung suburb (high transportation and energy costs)

Even if someone can pay cash for the house, you have to take into account opportunity cost of the money + property taxes + maintenance. Sometimes renovation as well. And a lot of people who can/could pay cash for a house are at a point in their lives where they might not be working much longer…

“I just think that sometimes it does make sense to buy a house.”

You are right. I have a younger colleague whose wife makes more than he does; together their income is easily 2X our household income. They just had their first child. It made perfect sense for them to buy a home, to get into the SoCal market. If they later decide to move up, there is a good chance the value of the house they want to purchase will have declined by even more than the value of their ’starter home.’

Some people also were angry when I said I was not paying for my wife’s mortgage any longer after the value of her house plummetted.

The finger shaking continued even after I explained that the appraisal was corrupt, the sales agent was a liar, the bank loaned my wife money at 60x income. And that we did not even know that the bank’s risks were nil (via securitization) until we were left holding the bag.

The “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander” argument did not hold water with many here on the HBB who blamed me for seeing the writing on the wall too late and realizing that we would not be able to pay back the money she was lent.

Somehow, they argued, it was morally wrong and some kind of breach of contract to stop paying the mortgage. When the contract was fulfilled to the letter. Wife stopped paying; bank got the house. I still don’t see the wrongness of letting the house go back to the bank as the contractual arrangement clearly allowed for that contingency.

I posited that since the banks don’t play fair, why should we feel morally obligated to pay back the loan. Oh well.

“I just think that sometimes it does make sense to buy a house. Of course”

Just saying this and repeating it again and again doesn’t make it true.

The numbers don’t make and they haven’t in 12 years.

And we agree on this. Many more should walk away. But don’t personalize this. The truth is nothing to take personal.

Mike, if you base your morals only around what is legally possible, then you shouldn’t be upset when someone mocks your morality.

“When you borrow, you CAN’T afford it.” 1947, Mr. Potter yelling at his ex-slum-tenant who just got a mortgage from the Bailey Building & Loan.

It’s a Wonderful Life.

if you base your morals only around what is legally possible, then you shouldn’t be upset when someone mocks your morality.

There is nothing he did that was immoral. Nothing. The contract stipulated the options and consequences and the system he operated in was, in fact, immoral.

The numbers don’t make (sense) and they haven’t in 12 years.

There are many areas in the USA right now where it’s the same cost per month to buy as to rent. I’m glad you’re not a Doctor. Your rigid thinking would kill people.

LabTech: But Doctor, the tests show it’s cancer.

Doctor: It’s gallstones dammit. I’m tellin’ you it’s gallstones!

US home prices rise in October from 1 year ago as housing recovery sustains momentum

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/us-home-prices-rise-in-october-from-1-year-ago-as-housing-recovery-sustains-momentum/2012/12/26/683775d4-4f65-11e2-835b-02f92c0daa43_story.html

WASHINGTON — US home prices rose in most major cities in October compared with a year ago, pushed up by rising sales and a decline in the supply of available homes. Higher prices show the housing market is improving even as it moves into the more dormant fall and winter sales period.

The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller national home price index released Wednesday increased 4.3 percent in October compared with a year ago. That’s the largest year-over-year increase in two and a half years, when a homebuyer tax credit temporarily boosted sales.

China has opened the world’s longest high-speed rail line, which runs 1,428 miles from Beijing to Guangzhou.

Prices rose in October from a year ago in 18 of 20 cities. Phoenix led all cities with a 21.7 percent gain, followed Detroit, where prices increased 10 percent. Prices declined in Chicago and New York.

I don’t recall HBB being angry at your walking away from your wife’s dwelling and allowing the bank to take the place back.

Instead, HBB blamed you for stopping payment and then living there rent free while BoA took some time to kick you out. Hardly “walking away.” All the crooked bank actions you mention dealt with the ensuing auction of the property, not the original mortgage which you signed. Then you started planning your next little real estate fiefdom even while you were squatting. HBB has had its arguments about whether it was the banks’ or FBs’ fault for signing the mortgage in the first place, but come on… 60x income? You knew full well you could never pay that back. Hardly pure as the driven snow.

Sure you may have been legal, but if you wanted to be so “moral,” you should known that 60x income was a crock, you should have kept your mouth shut about buying propeties, and you should have moved out within a month of your last mortgage payment.

Kinda like the east coast version of the golden rule(as told to me by a teacher who moved from NY to OR): “Do unto others before they do unto you”

Contract law is more amoral than immoral.

The state may set forth a default consequence if one party does not fulfill certain requirements of the contract, but the parties are almost always allowed to decide to replace the state’s default with their own spelled out terms. Fighting the spelled out or default consequences when you know for a fact that you have not fulfilled your requirements and that the other side has fulfilled theirs raises transaction costs and can be considered bad for society as a whole, but as far as we know, Mike didn’t do that. The bank kept putting off the sale. His wife didn’t fight it.

you should have moved out within a month of your last mortgage payment.

“Should have”? Why? Did his contract stipulate “should haves”?

Did his contract stipulate what B of A “should have” done regarding the morality of the housing market?

Did American society teach Americans that they “should” bend over when they realize they’ve gotten screwed in an immoral ponzi scheme?

Here’s what I think. I think a lot of people got jealous of people who made so much money on the housing market and they didn’t. (me included) Then, when it crashed, many felt joy at the downfallen. Then when they saw squatters, it pissed them off because they hadn’t fallen as far as they “should” have. And then there is the jealousness because of people that should be punished more were getting “free rent”. Am I a bit jealous of people getting free rent? Yes. Do I think most of them are doing something immoral. No.

Why would anyone be “jealous” of banks and lenders?

There are many areas in the USA right now where it’s the same cost per month to buy as to rent. I’m glad you’re not a Doctor. Your rigid thinking would kill people.

Wrong again. As usual.

And you couldn’t qualify to be my laborer foreman. You don’t need to worry about MD’s.

PS- Prices resumed falling from their grossly inflated levels…. again.

Well I won’t escalate then. But mike’s comment at 9:09 does not jive with me.

“The truth is nothing to take personal.”

It’s sad how many HBB posters are confused on this basic point.

“…you should known that 60x income was a crock, you should have kept your mouth shut about buying propeties, and you should have moved out within a month of your last mortgage payment.”

In Mike’s defense, why should anyone else care about how a private contract between his household and a lender was worked out over time?

Dealing with an amoral institution (Banks/business in general) on a moral basis is a sure way to get rear-ended.

You need to deal with these companies as they would deal with you; use the law to your advantage whenever possible, and do whatever is permissible within the terms of the agreement.

Doing anything else is simply asking for a shellacking.

And you couldn’t qualify to be my laborer foreman.

I wouldn’t work for you. Your rigid thinking could get workers killed.

Labor foreman: We need to get that man off that roof. The rain is starting to freeze.

Housing =Massive Losses: It is not starting to freeze. Yesterdays weather report said it was going to be 35 degrees today.

Labor foreman: But sir, I can see the freezing rain with my own eyes.

Housing =Massive Losses: (foaming at the mouth) LIAR! Who’s paying you to tell me these lies???

Labor foreman: Good God. WTF’s wrong with you?

Housing =Massive Losses: You’re fired!

Labor foreman: What about John on the roof with the freezing rain?

Housing =Massive Losses: LIAR!

Why should anyone care about anything? It’s not like any pention funds have bank stocks, or that good people work there far away from the mortgage services department. Or that tax payers back mortgages or that our economy is more connected that we would like to think.

——————
Did his contract stipulate what B of A “should have” done regarding the morality of the housing market?

——————-
Rio, I like and agree with you in general, but this is just contrarian. No, it specified what should be done legally. We aren’t calling him a criminal; we are saying he acted immorally. And so did the bankers. I’m not jealous of any of this. I’m sad that this is what society has come to.

So lets’ get around this morality issue and let’s add a time clause to the contract and have BOA hire a bunch of thugs to toss his stuff on the street an hour after he defaults. That’s a great way to spend our limited resources. Right up there with posting an armed guard in every school. But I don’t live in Connecticut, so why do I care about that either?

And why should we care how much a private business pays their top executives or their lucky duckys?

Look Housing =Massive Losses. Look! Who am I going to believe? You or my “lying” eyes??

Case-Shiller Home Prices Show Strong Gain in October 2012
Global Economic Intersection-6 hours ago
“With lower rental vacancy rates and rising rents, combined with still historically favorable affordability conditions, more people are buying …

Apartment rents rise, vacancies fall in St. Louis
STLtoday.com-Dec 24, 2012
Landlords are raising the rent in the St. Louis area, and tenants have to pay up. The market for apartments and rental houses here is swinging …

Home prices and rents continue to rise
San Jose Mercury News-Dec 17, 2012
Home seekers continue to face the twin challenge of rising home prices and rents, especially if they want to live in the Bay Area. In San …

Rents to rise at steady clip, forecast says
USA TODAY-Nov 26, 2012
Rents will keep rising, more than 4% a year for 2014 and 2015, says market researcher Reis. “The pendulum has definitely swung back in favor …

Report: Rising Brooklyn Rents Giving Manhattan A Run For Its Money
Gothamist-Dec 12, 2012
Rents in Brooklyn are getting closer and closer to the rents in Manhattan (Rbudh’s flickr). Once upon a time Manhattanites turned to Brooklyn …

Apartment rents rising in WI, nation
WEAU-TV 13-Nov 28, 2012
Apartment rents rising in WI, nation. EAU CLAIRE, Wisc. … Landlords said with other rising costs, it’s a necessary change. Everett Blakeley …

Rent hikes forecast for industrial, office buildings
OCRegister-Dec 7, 2012
Rents will rise and vacancies will drop over the next two year for Orange County office and industrial buildings, according to the Casden …

ARLA predicts rising rents and sector scrutiny for 2013
Mortgage Introducer-Dec 21, 2012
The Association of Residential Lettings Agents has predicted that 2013 will continue to see rising rents as demand continues to outstrip supply …

Five Things Driving Rising Home Prices in Snellville
Patch.com-10 hours ago
The Rise in Rents: More investors are cashing in on this and more renters are questioning their decision to rent. I have investors now who are willing and able to …

US Real Estate Update: Rents Rise
Live Trading News-Dec 12, 2012
CoreLogic (NYSE: CLGX), a leading provider of information, analytics and business services, today released its December MarketPulse report.

Home sales rise in November
e-wisdom.com-5 hours ago
“With lower rental vacancy rates and rising rents, combined with still historically favorable affordability conditions, more people are buying …

‘New York Magazine’ Explores the Fascinating World of SF’s …
SFist-1 hour ago
… over the fact that the buses have a direct relationship to rising rents and gentrification in certain neighborhoods, like the Divisadero corridor.

39% of landlords expect rents to rise
Landlord Expert-Dec 12, 2012
image landlords polled by LSL Property Services expect to increase rents in the coming 12 months with 10% anticipating rises greater than 5%.

REAL ESTATE-Olick
CNBC.com-by Diana Olick-Dec 2, 2012
Mortgage rates will likely rise off their historic lows, but not significantly. Apartment rents will stay elevated and vacancies low despite the …

2013: How Rising Prices Could Boost Housing Demand
Wall Street Journal (blog)-Dec 18, 2012
Meanwhile, rising rents are likely to encourage more renters to buy. Finally, low prices and unattractive returns on other assets have fueled …

Rising demand, scarce supply bolsters home prices
Inman.com-Dec 20, 2012
“With lower rental vacancy rates and rising rents, combined with historically favorable affordability conditions, more people are buying homes.” …

Consumers Climb Out of Debt
Wall Street Journal-Dec 23, 2012
Rents are rising, pushing up the share of renters’ income that goes to required financial obligations to 24.1% in the third quarter, the highest …

Five Reasons Home Prices Have Been Rising
Wall Street Journal (blog)-Nov 27, 2012
Rents are rising. Falling mortgage rates and improving job growth didn’t do much for housing last year, in part because buyers didn’t have …

Upward trend for rents set to continue
FarmersWeekly-Dec 5, 2012
Values have continued to rise on more recently reviewed rents, said Rupert Clark, head of rural management at Smiths Gore. “We have had a …

Soaring Rents Drive Apartment Boom
CNBC.com-Dec 6, 2012
But as part of a national rush to capitalize on rising rents, … While rents are still rising, analysts say the steep increases between 2011 and 2012 …

Grounds for optimism on cliff
Philadelphia Inquirer-Dec 23, 2012
With rents rising strongly almost everywhere across the country, the decision to buy is becoming much easier to make. The main threat to this …

Quoting realtor isn’t going to help you here.

Nice try though.

“Nice try though”. Said the pitcher to the hitter who just hit a grand-slam off him.

Quote some more realtor to demonstrate you dishonesty.

“I wouldn’t work for you.”

You can say that again.

Quote some more realtor to demonstrate you dishonesty.

Let’s look who’s being dishonest here. I just posted 21 recent headlines scoured from all over the USA citing facts, figures and observations regarding rising rents and home prices in the USA. (21 articles)

To counter the twenty-one (21) different articles citing rising rents all across the USA, the one-trick poster Housing =Massive Losses characterizes those twenty-one (21) different articles as……(now get this)….as “Quoting (a) realtor”

Is characterizing twenty-one (21) different articles citing rising rents all across the USA as “Quoting a realtor” honest?

No. This is not honest. That is not honest debate. In fact, I think it demonstrates intellectual and actual dishonesty.

You posted realtor tripe.

You’re dishonest and a serial misrepresenter.

You posted realtor tripe.

Housing =Massive Losses,
Wrong. I just posted twenty-one (21) recent headlines scoured from all over the USA citing facts, figures and observations regarding rising rents and home prices in the USA.

You post squat, foam at the mouth and call names. You never back up anything and people routinely demolish your one-trick pony, one line drivel with facts, figures and logic. When your points are demolished, you resort to calling people liars when it is you who are dishonest.

Your characterizing twenty-one (21) different articles citing rising rents all across the USA as “Quoting a realtor” is intellectually dishonest which accurately reflects the description of your increasingly deteriorating, unhinged posts the past year.

I have no dog in this hunt. I live in Brazil but I can read data. You freak out because the reality of the USA housing market no longer conforms to your skipped-record narrative.

Other than that, YOU ROCK!

You posted realtor tripe. You’re a liar and serial misrepresenter.

“I wouldn’t work for you.”

+1 LOL

He emailed me his cut/paste Excel spreadsheet last night and said he might not be able to log on until lunch time. I said I could handle the cut/pasting of the standard warnings until he made it here.

For every misrepresentation paid hacks post here, I will continue to respond the truth.

Why does this confuse you?

Cuz I don’t know who is paid and who is not? Not unless you want to tell me. You are here as much as any; who pays you to be so vigilant?

As you are Truth; your information will be trustworthy and I will no longer be confused by you calling folks liars.

Sincerely
Specudebtor Prole

Your judgment is severely impaired. Why are you teaching?

Because I like it. And paid for and earned the state certification. And I am too dumb to use those checkstand scanner thingies. And my back went out so my chosen career in organic vegetable sales did not pan out long term. I am more concerned with relevent people like students and fellow teachers and admins assessment of my judgement than your assessments made with such rancor.

You fail the objectivity test. Not the first test you have failed my fiend.

How did my kids ever make the honor role? Good gawd I homeschooled them for years they oughta be flailing given my propensity to lie, misinform, misjudge, etc.

If you knew how to surf I would tell you to go pound sand. But don’t take the truth personally. I don’t actually know you nor do I wish to, really!

Severely impaired.

Who cares what you think about my judgement.
It is so impaired that I don’t even like you.

This isn’t about me kiddo.

This isn’t about me kiddo.

Au contraire. It’s all about you.

Honor role = Home Schooled?

Relishing being a part of the drain on the system.

Mike, I am ashamed of you.

“Au contraire. It’s all about you.”

Wrong again Cupcake.

Quit taking $hit personally. Life is much easier that way.

Sorry dude, I call it ‘em as I see ‘em. You are a blowhard, plain and simple.

You’re a drama queen, plain and simple.

Do you have any substance to produce?

Only if you consider him calling people liars when he’s factually outgunned productive.

Then quit squealin’ like a whiny sissy about it.

“quit squealin’ like a whiny sissy about it.”
2012, Housing =Massive Losses’ therapist imploring his patient to quit squealin’ about rising home prices.

“Then quit squealin’ like a whiny sissy about it.”

Heh, this dude is Trollcore.

Lets hear you howl some more. Go ahead.

Lets hear you howl some more. Go ahead.

Sorry dude, if anyone here is constantly howling, it’s you.

And in walks the blog drama queen blindly interjecting.

Says the paranoid schizophrenic who accuses everyone of being liars.

Our purchase price was less than 1x income. We’re really close to a lot of family, plus my wife’s work. My wife isn’t the kind of have her head in the clouds–we both know people our age who lost houses, declared bankruptcy, got divorced, etc. In many/most cases thanks to the crash (CRATER!!!!) in the housing and job markets.

On the football/prole issue - obviously nearly everyone loves football, but generally the true enthusiasm is strongest amongst the lower economic strata. In some ways I feel like football obsession has replaced true masculinity/being a man.

And just how often does that happen “Joe”? I’ll tell you…1% of them time.

The other 99% of cases are suckers paying massively inflated amounts in excess of 3 times annual earnings.

Our views don’t have to be opposed, RAL. The small percentage of people who purposely buy far less than they can “afford” (by the Realtard/Mortgage Broker metrics) aren’t going to cause a rise in housing prices. Nor will we prevent a collapse/cratering of prices, because we’re a tiny fraction of the market.

Joe,

I couldn’t care less about concurrence. The truth stands on its’ own. However, your post above clearly indicates you’re thinking rationally about a market forces relating to housing.

Your cheapest option is to move into the house NOW and just be done with it already. Add up all the rent that you’re paying now, along with the taxes and fees associated with selling this house and buying a lesser one. Those costs alone will eat up any gains you would have made by waiting, especially in the $100K - $130K price range.

No offense, Oxide, but you really can’t tell me what the cheapest or best option is for me at this point. I pay less in rent than I collect from my tenant. I will be able to sell the home without paying the 6% realtor fee. Things like that you don’t know. Or that the house is out of the way in terms of where our kids are comfortable and successful in school. I don’t rail on you for your decision to buy a house; to each their own.

I do wish I never sold the first house I bought. I bought it for the right reasons, to lower my monthly expenses. Then I got hurt and had to reconsider what to do for income. I then sold my home, sadly, as I loved living as a surfer and I loved my job.

No money is worth having to give up your passions for, but that is what I did. 50k of my housing bux went to surgery that was retroactively denied by insurance. Three more surgeries were covered but expensive. 20k to medication that allows me to function but insurance won’t cover.
I have struggled with pain and discomfort the last 15 years. Not everyone conquers chronic pain equally. Slowly I get more functional but I still have setbacks.

If my body hadn’t got hurt 15 years ago I never would have left Santa Barbara. It is fortunate I have not been more of a drain on taxpayers because housing was my income when I could not work (or surf). I also took housing bux to earn my teaching license as a new vocation. I could barely sit in a chair but I did it anyway.

I surf now and work now, but I surf occasionally on modified equipment and can barely get out of my wetsuit when done. I still can not do a pull up. For a while I really thought I was dying and just wanted to see my kids grow up. I am sorry to have offended any of you; I thought my roles in the bubble pertinent to the blog. But I could do without the judgement. I have been a buyer for the right reasons,the wrong reasons, a landlord, a speculator, a debtor and an FB. I thought that I was qualified to comment on housing related things. But with broken record RAL around it’s not fun for me anymore. I understand why you think I did wrong but you are not responsible for my kids and you don’t feel the pain of not being able to function. I used to have to pray that I would not pass out in the grocery store, much less go play with my kids or go to school or work. Housing was my savior financially. Not so much anymore. My little fiefdom is not as satifying as the life I led before 1999, the year I got hurt.

That I made some money in housing is nothing. Or lived in a house that my wife owned fair and square until the bank finally decided to take ownership. We were ready to go each time they scheduled a sale, but since it was occupied, the sale of the home kept being rescheduled and my wife remained the owner. It probably benefitted the bank to have the house maintained while others were having their pipes burst or were being looted. Those ones got sold first while we held down the fort, waiting for the bank to act.

But OK it was immoral to take out a big loan on a small income. I guess we should have seen through the dude who was trying to get a commish and tell us that the appraisal gave us 40k instant equity and the home would be worth 100k more in a year. Should have known that securitization was the name of the game and the game had changed from the old ways I was more familiar with. Used to be the bank would only loan money to those who could prove they did not need it; erroneously we thought we fit that bill. Having a 200k house go up to a million will mess with a young person’s mind. I thought housing only went up. I was wrong. Compounding my personal issues at the time; I could not function physically at the time. So I took the money and rolled the dice.

But if I would have been able to keep my old job, I would still be in my first home, surfing every day I was not working and making good money in my first career.
So before you pass judgement I ask you to walk a mile in my orthopedic shoes and see how it feels.

I enjoy reading the differnet perpectives, yours included, mike.

Try to think of RAL as a cukoo clock that just squacks the same thing over and over again - no need to take it personally.

I remind myself that even a broken cukoo clock is right twice a day. If RAL could limit his squacks to twice a day it might even provide a useful service.

‘I remind myself that even a broken cukoo clock is right twice a day’

Ha ha, so funny! Let’s all laugh about stupid people who think house prices are too high, and who think differently than you.

Let me tell you something; this isn’t a joke. If I’m right and this is a bubble, there will be people killing themselves because of it. I know; I’ve seen it before. It will ruin millions of lives if this goes wrong. I’m not running this blog so you guys can sit around and insult each other all day. Show me there isn’t a bubble. Show me we have a normal housing market with normal prices and conditions. But don’t trivialize what is at stake.

“Show me we have a normal housing market with normal prices and conditions. But don’t trivialize what is at stake.”

Good luck with that plan, when prices are increasing again at bubble-era rates, with MSM cheerleaders and a consensus* of economists rah-rahing every price increase back towards another massive collapse.

* Don’t know if “consensus” is the proper collective adjective for a group of economists; maybe alpha-sloth could weigh in on this?

‘when prices are increasing again at bubble-era rates’

That’s what they say (about a few places anyway). I take the time to look at the details. Let’s take Phoenix; the recent sales are much larger houses and much newer. There are fewer foreclosures (like in CA where they don’t count courthouse sales in the median). Jeebus, there is so much BS going on I don’t see how it can be taken seriously. Here’s a HBB nugget of truth from WAY back; the median is a seriously flawed statistic!

I remember in 2006 in Sedona; a UHS was telling me how many sales there were. I replied that’s just that many more foreclosures to come. He thought prices were rising in 2006 when they had been falling for a year. In Denver the median price was going up in the summer of 2005 as foreclosures were skyrocketing, and nobody believed prices were really up. So now sale are up: at these prices, interest rates and down-payments, to me that’s more defaults down the road.

I heard a guy describing what was happening in housing markets as not being ‘organic.’ I think that’s a good description. I’d be happy to see us working through the correction, with natural interest rate responses and the necessary liquidations of debt. But we don’t have that. So I’m worried.

Try to think of RAL as a cukoo clock that just squacks the same thing over and over again

Imagine that…. just like you liars whose entire future is a function of housing prices post your same lies and NAR authored missives… every day.

Don’t take it personally.

Ben, I’m sorry to have offended you. You provide a valuable service with this blog.

I’m well aware that there are parts of the country where house prices bear no relationship to rents or building + maintenance costs. But I live in a part of the country where houses can be affordable for the average family income. At the present time a house can be purchased for less than equivalent rent - even factoring in a 6% APR if need be. I’ll admit that wasn’t the case during the bubble.

Not to say that there aren’t/weren’t people buying houses they couldn’t afford - just that they weren’t forced to if they wanted to be a homeowner.

Your/RAL’s premise seems to be that there is massive deflation to come, in wages as well as house prices. I would love to read a reasoned argument for that but instead we get annoying squacks.

I don’t have to explain anything to you. By virtue of the fact you’re demanding an explanation of the obvious tells me you can’t even be honest with yourself, let alone the public.

Who cares about “the drop” when you’re comparing to 2008? Get honest.

oxide - PG County or Montgomery? I’m assuming not Howard or Anne Arundel.

Actually I think he was on the VA side, possibly Jefferson Co WV.

Yes, eastern panhandle of WV. Still trying to find something in DC area.

Skip Northern VA for sure. They have 30% to drop even before they match similar homes in Montgomery County.

For you, it’s going to depend on commute. A possible area is to look at is near Andrews, the bottom of the Beltway on the MD side. Yes you have to drive, and cross the Wilson Bridge to get to VA, but the Beltway is pretty calm down there.

Oxide… but that’s the worst area out of the entire DC metro. Worse than Prince George’s County, even. Also, still massive losses to be had there. Crazy foreclosure rates.

I think a better move is to postpone moving for another 2-3 yrs, let things sort out. Could probably save 50k or more on a 2 BR house simply by letting these foreclosures run the course.

Alternatively, instead of buying in some dump like Suitland or La Plata, if he waits 2 yrs maybe he can buy in an area along the Metro for a similar price in 2-3 yrs.

Patience you guys… DC Metro will fall. Places like Potomac and Bethesda will always be expensive but there is plenty of room to drop in the more modest areas. If you don’t mind a pitiful county government and probably the worst school system in MD, just wait for Prince George’s County to drop again. It’s a matter of when, not if.

Joe,
I think similarly. I’ll wait to buy. Prices are outrageous out there in good school districts like Rockville, Kensington, north potomac etc. I’m not even looking at Potomac, Bethesda, Chevy Chase or McLean etc.

I hope fiscal cliff happens, contractor spending is cut down and market corrects. Too much money is being spent on these contractors.

Too much money is being spent on these contractors

We work on a very small contract to DoD, in a very specialized area which shall remain unnamed. And we just increased our contractor headcount on the contract by 15% in the last two months!

Fiscal cliff be damned. You lose!

Also those who are best able to pull the wool over others’ eyes through use of obfuscatory language…

“And many of these Grover Norquist shrink-the-government koolaid drinkers see no hypocrisy in “double dipping” ”

That’s because they’re boot strapping and taking advantage of the invisible hand of the free market. Obviously.

The shrinking the government types just want to cut off all the wellfare payments to the lazy people. They work hard for thier piece of cheese.

It makes perfect sense. It is the same reason congress and senate hold votes at midnight. To give a perception that they’re working so hard for the little people. Fools will believe….

For people who can’t think with logic or reason, but who can only follow a linear narrative of Drudge Report headline talking points,it makes perfect sense.

http://usawatchdog.com/best-thing-is-go-straight-off-fiscal-cliff-karl-denninger/

Nice post Rancher…Pbear, WT and others…If you did not listen to the Denninger video in Ranchers post do so…

Hi Rancher — are you still in SW Oregon these days? Hope you are surviving the winter chill…

Yes he is in Grants Pass Pbear….And, I heard from my cousin there…1 ft of snow and lots of damage…Said it was the biggest storm in 40 years…

we got 6′ so far this week

97 degrees today. Last night I joined 500,000 of my closest friends for a sweltering, free Stevie Wonder concert on Copacabana Beach.

He was great but they ran out of beer.

You guys do know how to party Rio…

“Last night I joined 500,000 of my closest friends for a sweltering, free Stevie Wonder concert on Copacabana Beach.”

Is it true, the skimpy wax jobs?

“…talking to people who don’t understand the science at all…”

You have to admit it is a bit humorous to watch the smiley-eyed clueless woman try to hold up her end of the conversation…

You have to admit it is a bit humorous to watch the smiley-eyed clueless woman try to hold up her end of the conversation…
———-

No, its Dawkins who can’t ever convert 3rd and goal. He defends natural selection and then gets all flacid at the thought of applying it to politics. Thats a fail; he can’t have it both ways.

If ape shall not kill ape, then he must defend WHY, even if it stands in opposition to natural selection.

Thought experiment:

we are on a plane that crashes on take off. We both survive the crash, but Im uninjured and you have a broken leg and you’re blind from a head injury…

There is jet fuel leaking all over the place.

Now,

Why should I help you out of the plane.

Why shouldn’t I just save myself?

Why should I risk my life helping someone I don’t even know?

You could be a pedophile?

or a racist…?

Dawkins ain’t landin no bombs because he refuses to throw the punch that will knock her (TF) out.

Thats his fault so don’t hate on her.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

I love the game. God created carbon based energy to hasten global warming which in turn speeds up evolution. God knows what he’s doing.

“If ape shall not kill ape…”? What does any of that have to do with natural selection? I don’t understand how your thought experiment fits here.

Racist®

I don’t think it really does. Not for Christmas spending. If you spend less on your family for Christmas, you don’t make up for it by celebrating Christmas in May. That demand is gone until next year. So the structural reasons may be relevant for people looking at long term policy stuff, but for employees at Best Buy or Toys R Us? They are going to get fired either way.

So the structural reasons may be relevant for people looking at long term policy stuff, but for employees at Best Buy or Toys R Us? They are going to get fired either way.

But they’re getting fired precisely because of the long-term policies’ effect on their Best Buy jobs.

And the long-term policies are why many of them had better paying jobs before they were forced to settle for their current Best Buy type jobs that are now threatened by the same policies that led them to their current threatened job.

Most jobs at Best Buy are for December, only….regardless of how December goes.

I spent pretty much the same amount, but that is because it is all pretty minimal. Maybe spent a little more because I bought stuff for the niece and nephew when I found things I knew they would like. Could I have written down the names and looked it all up on Amazon to try to get a better price? Yeah. But when a well edited and well organized store helps me find a book or a toy that is perfect for one of them, I like to reward the service that the owner provided. Even if most of it is made in China.

I am pretty sure I didn’t buy anything made in China as a gift this year. Mostly local artisan stuff. I give what I like.