February 12, 2013

The Siren Song Begins Again

The Las Vegas Business Press reports from Nevada. “As vice president of sales for Pordes Residential, Jim Navarro is selling more than a condo community at Veer Towers. It’s a lifestyle community, a luxury high-rise residence in the middle of the Strip with 24-hour security, valet parking and concierge service. Pordes started the process of acquiring 427 units at Veer Towers about 14 months ago. Founder Mark Pordes saw what was happening with an absorption boom in Miami and knew Las Vegas was next. The first 100 units were released for sale in late January. About 330 of the units are being rented in one-year leases, and will be put on the market as they become available. So far, Pordes has taken reservations on 11 units.”

“Navarro said he’s had quite a bit of interest from buyers, including a Canadian man who purchased a unit sight-unseen. He knew where he wanted to be and remembered when MGM was asking $500,000 for a studio unit in 2007.”

“Prices start at $228,000 for a 574-square-foot studio, going to $365,000 for an 800-square-foot, one bedroom unit on the lower floors. Two-bedroom units range from the low $500,000s to $900,000s, and a three-bedroom unit near the top of the tower is more than $1 million. ‘A lot of our clientele is from Southern California, Canada, South America,’ Navarro said.”

Casino City Times on Nevada. “High-rise market investors are still out there and the size of their investment pool has grown larger, said Dennis Smith, president of Home Builders Research in Las Vegas. ‘We’ve got hedge funds where money is no object,’ Smith said at a high-rise panel presented by the Women’s Council of Realtors. ‘They can raise money. The cash is there. They can go overseas and talk to clients about buying something in Las Vegas for less than the cost to produce it.’”

“Matt Brimhall, VP of sales at Trump Las Vegas, said units that cost $1,000 a square foot to build are being sold at $500 a square foot. Demand for high-rise condos is reaching a peak he hasn’t seen since the days of ‘make-believe’ projects. ‘Overall, we see more people wanting to live that lifestyle, but they’re from outside Nevada,’ Brimhall said. ‘Vancouver, Toronto, Beijing, Hong Kong, Singapore … we always find out when there’s a delay in the wire (funds).’”

“Jim Brooks, owner of Brooks & Associates realty firm said it’s almost all investors buying condo-hotels in Las Vegas, with about two-thirds of his clients coming from Southern California. Others are from Florida and New York. Return on investment is minimal, he said. People aren’t buying them as ‘cash cows,’ expecting to see returns of 8 percent to 10 percent.”

The Associated Press on Nevada. “Amid a buffet of government-run mortgage relief programs that many struggling Nevada residents say they’ve heard nothing about, Bruce Breslow thinks he finally has a program that fatigued homeowners will pay attention to. The proposed program would have the state create a $150 million nonprofit to buy up distressed mortgages en masse and refinance them. The newly appointed director of Nevada’s Department of Business and Industry thinks it could help chip away at the tens of thousands of mortgages in Nevada that are severely delinquent.”

“‘I think the ’shadow inventory’ is the main thing that’s keeping homebuilders from moving into Nevada,’ said Breslow. ‘The threat of 52,000 homes marching toward foreclosure keeps it unstable.’”

“Real estate experts say people who are seriously behind on their payments or have stopped paying altogether aren’t reading their mail and aren’t answering their phones, perhaps in an effort to avoid collectors. Bill Uffelman of the Nevada Bankers Association is skeptical that such large numbers of people don’t know there’s help. He thinks many people with delinquent mortgages simply don’t see banks foreclosing on people who skip payments, and decide not to pay themselves.”

“‘It’s amazing how many people say they don’t know these programs exist. The stories are there,’ Uffelman said. ‘The reality is there are a lot of people in Clark County and Nevada saying, ‘I didn’t have to pay my mortgage for the past two or three years. You’re the dummy (for paying).’”

“His optimism aside, Breslow said the $150 million pot of money can only go so far. That might help 700 or 800 homes, until people whose mortgage the nonprofit buys can pay back into the fund and replenish it, allowing the program to bring in new underwater homes.”

The Las Vegas Sun in Nevada. “The Nevada Legislature is the land of ‘unintended consequences’ — the term used for the effects of bills that aren’t anticipated. The best example from last session is a mortgage foreclosure bill, Assembly Bill 284. Its intent was to crack down on ‘robo-signings’ of mortgage documents, to prevent fraudulent paperwork and keep a bank from wrongfully taking someone’s home. The unintended consequence: It caused a dramatic drop in foreclosures in Nevada when it went into effect in October 2011.”

“On the surface, stopping foreclosures is great. But banking lobbyists and housing experts say it has created another problem — people staying in their homes without paying the mortgage and with no intention of doing so. These so-called ’strategic squatters’ are potentially creating another housing bubble and slowing the Nevada housing market’s recovery, analysts said.”

The Arizona Republic. “Steady improvement in metro Phoenix’s new-home market has developers and homebuilders scrambling to buy property for dozens of new subdivisions projected to spring up over the next few years. With new-home building up 71 percent in 2012 over 2011 and the number of available lots dwindling, homebuilders sealed nearly 100 land deals in December alone that will create thousands of homesites.”

“For decades, the homebuilding industry has been one of the state’s biggest economic engines, with at least one out of every three dollars generated statewide tied to housing, according to Arizona Republic research. ‘When I look at what’s going on in the Phoenix-area housing market, I am bullish. Employment and population growth are up. Buyers are purchasing new homes, and builders are making a mad dash to buy more lots to keep up with demand,’ said Charley Freericks, president of Scottsdale-based developer DMB. ‘We have gone over the numbers carefully and see 17,000 new homes going up this year.’”

“Real-estate analyst Mike Orr believes builders must construct more houses in the Phoenix area this year to keep up with buyer demand. Another reason: The number of houses offered for resale has hovered near a record low for the past year. ‘It seems many people may have decided to hang onto their homes in an effort to let values keep going up. I also anticipate another possible drop in supply this spring,’ said Orr. ‘Unless homebuilders can start keeping up with rising demand, we may have a chronic supply problem.’”

“Kim Underwood, who now rents in Tempe, has been shopping for a new home in the southeast Valley for the past few months. Prices are higher than she expected, so she’s expanding her search. ‘I know a couple who bought for under $300,000 in Gilbert last summer. I looked at houses in their neighborhood, and prices were $20,000 to $30,000 higher,’ she said.”

The Casa Grande Dispatch in Arizona. “‘2012 was all about low inventory, which has been driving up home prices,’ explains Orr. ‘Foreclosures and short sales have gone down, eliminating the sources of many cheap homes, so the more expensive types of transactions, like normal resales and new-home sales, went up. With prices moving substantially higher, it’s not surprising that buyer interest eased a little,’ Orr says. ‘We still see multiple bids for many resale listings, but demand isn’t as strong as it was in spring 2012.’”

AZ Family in Arizona. “Good news for folks looking to buy a home in the Phoenix-area market. While it’s still a buyers’ market for the most part, that buyer is changing.Valley realtors say investors have pretty much bowed out of the area. Realtor Jardin Ratzken says the valley market used to be flooded with investors from elsewhere, thanks to low housing prices. But now with prices rising and inventory drying up, investor interest seems to be cooling, as they look elsewhere for deals. ‘Right now investors are backing out go to different markets due to the fact prices rose dramatically over the last 12 months,’ Ratzken says.”

The East Valley Tribune in Arizona. “Careful, East Valley. With apologies to Marty McFly, that forming line many think is leading to recovery instead is into an economic time machine that’s once again taking us back to the future. It’s the same machine Arizonans have eagerly returned to after every economic downturn in recent memory. Set the controls to postwar Arizona, say 1955, and — poof! — our old friends from Hallcraft, Allied, Suggs, John F. Long and the other great homebuilders of mid-century are there to greet us.”

“And whenever that economy went sour, community leaders vowed to diversify it as it rebounded so that when the next recession struck, the increased variety of financial infusion would have lessened that crisis’ severity, perhaps even its longevity. But no sooner did the sun shine on us once more, back into the time machine we went.”

“Morgan Brennan of Forbes magazine reported in January that Phoenix’s position as the 8th fastest-growing American city was not expected by the magazine’s staff as it compiled its list of the top 20 of 2012. ‘Hard hit by the bursting of the housing bubble, the desert metropolis is welcoming a fresh influx of newcomers, particularly from California and the Midwest,’ Brennan wrote, predicting that Phoenix’s population would increase by 2.7 percent this year, the fourth-highest rate on that list.”

“Brennan quoted an expert, Lee McPheters of Arizona State University as saying that the number of jobs here is increasing in the health care, warehousing, construction and service industries. Sounds terrific, right? But here’s McPheters quoted by Brennan: ‘Interestingly, it’s younger people, ages 20-29, coming in now who don’t have a house to sell, are unmarried, that are the driver of growth here now,’ he told her.”

“Young arrivals are a vital component to growth, but with no house to put on the market back home, it’s not quite clear whether they want a house to buy here. What we have been learning about the next generation of families is that the Great Recession has taught many of them that a 30-year mortgage might not be the most desirable thing, both from a financial standpoint and from the outlook of a quick pivot to a new community to take advantage of.”

“So the siren song begins again. Come to Arizona and build homes. Come to Arizona and the sunshine in the gorgeous Sonoran desert. Live the resort lifestyle. These slogans sound virtually the same as they did in 1955, 1975 and 1995. Our community leaders, financial experts, residents, must at long last listen to the experts, see the changes in the attitudes of the young, and step away from the time machine, because the past is no longer there to greet us.”

“We must plan a real future based on different economic pillars in addition to the proliferation of rooftops. New Arizonans should be always welcome. But we have to make sure they have jobs. Powerful as it is, the housing market has let Arizona down once too often for it to stand alone again.”




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82 Comments »

Comment by goon squad
2013-02-12 06:42:15

a 30-year mortgage might not be the most desirable thing

Yup. No mortgage albatross hamster wheel debt slavery for us. We reserve the right to go Bill in Los Angeles at a moment’s notice. We’ve been in our current rental for three years, the longest we’ve been in the same location in our adult lifetime. And just renewed our lease for another six months. Our standard of economic freedom: never ink your name on a note that you can’t write a check to pay off tomorrow.

Loanownership = Loosers

Comment by 2banana
2013-02-12 07:07:52

A 30 year mortgage at 3% is actually not a bad thing.

You can easily make it a 15 or 10 year mortgage by paying extra every month.

And it is a great hedge for inflation where, when it happens, you can just pay the minimum and watch the bankers (really the US government) cry uncle.

I have read many stories in inflation ravaged countries (Argentina comes to mind) where it eventually costs more to pay for the bus ticket to get to the bank than to pay the mortgage at the bank.

Comment by goon squad
2013-02-12 07:25:00

If hyperinflation actually goes full on Zimbabwe in the USA, we’ll have greater concerns than the rent versus buy calculation.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world

Comment by Blue Skye
2013-02-12 14:42:45

Deflation realized will strain the center considerably.

It will tear debt hampsters to shreds.

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Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 17:02:33

BINGO

 
 
 
 
Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 09:14:46

“Yup. No mortgage albatross hamster wheel debt slavery for us. We reserve the right to go Bill in Los Angeles at a moment’s notice. We’ve been in our current rental for three years, the longest we’ve been in the same location in our adult lifetime. And just renewed our lease for another six months. Our standard of economic freedom: never ink your name on a note that you can’t write a check to pay off tomorrow.”

And a big FAT bank account with enough horsepower to buy a few houses at current grossly inflated asking prices.

But then again….. knowing the value of a dollar is why we all have big fat bank accounts. And not knowing the value of a dollar is why we have tens of millions of dummies holding onto rapidly depreciating assets.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 07:01:08

‘Jim Brooks…said it’s almost all investors buying condo-hotels in Las Vegas’

Jim, since you can’t live in a condotel, it’s pretty much 100% investors.

Well, condotels are back in the news, so we can mark one more bubble sign on the list. And look at these guys crawl out from under the rocks:

Dennis Smith, president of Home Builders Research in Las Vegas…high-rise broker Bruce Hiatt…’The recovery in the home market is real. It’s not about wishing and building for buyers who aren’t there or can’t afford the house,’ said Arizona real-estate analyst RL Brown, co-publisher of the Phoenix Housing Market Letter.’

Comment by joe smith
2013-02-12 07:58:56

Re: condotels, how many days per year are you allowed to stay in your unit? Is there a general range?

Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 09:16:43

I’m sure it varies. Back in the day I’d read about 2 or 4 weeks a year. The rooms need to be rented for the hotel to make money. It’s hard to believe this has come up again, but as we used to ask, if these rooms were such money makers, why wouldn’t Trump just keep them for himself?

Comment by oxide
2013-02-12 09:29:31

For the same reason that banks sell a mortgage rather than hold the mortgage to term. Do you want a little more money to come in painstakingly slowly over decades, or a smaller lump sum to come in NOW? Think quick!! In half an hour you have your quarterly projections conference call with your stockholders.

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Comment by joe smith
2013-02-12 09:48:17

Oh, I agree, I was just wondering why someone would buy into one of these. These seem even worse than a time share, because the rooms can sit empty, whereas timeshare people are locked in so at least someone else is contributing (in theory) to covering the costs of the apartment.

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Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 10:06:20

‘why someone would buy into one of these’

Greater fools.

 
Comment by AmazingRuss
2013-02-12 10:22:57

I think we’ve transcended “Greater Fool.” This is the age of the MegaFool.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2013-02-13 06:21:21

This is the age of the MegaFool.

I like the term Ultimate Fool—like the UFC champ of fools.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 09:16:24

What’s going to be breathtaking is the depths of the next round of declines. They will be truly stunning.

Oh…. you thought the reverting to the mean meant going back to 2005 prices? You’re in for the shock of your life.

Comment by GrizzlyBear
2013-02-12 21:48:19

This next group to get cut off at the knees deserves to be ridiculed. They have no excuse, as the carnage from the first bubble was plain as day.

 
 
Comment by oxide
2013-02-12 09:25:24

Ben, where is everybody getting the money this time? In 2004-2007 we had a plethora of J6P’s taking out NINJA loans which banked on selling before the grace period was up. Nobody is offering those loans to J6Ps anymore, so where is all this money — much of it cash — coming from? Investors and overseas? If they’re going to snap up all the inventory, I guess I would rather they do it at these inflated prices, than at “pennies on the dollar” (as measton predcited). The profit can shore up the balance sheet of bank that sold the house, one less bank the taxpayer has to bail out.

Let the investors take a bath on the investment. They can afford it. But I do feel sorry for all the people who will be priced out and will have to continue to shack up to pay the rent.

Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 09:41:02

LOL….

If you’re going to pander, do so without making it obvious.

The bath is yours take. Why is it you never discuss your losses?

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 09:46:47

‘Nobody is offering those loans to J6Ps anymore’

Fannie Mae is making 125%+ LTV’s with no appraisal and no proof of income. It’s one of the myriad government loan programs. (I hear adds for these on the radio all day long. I heard one the other day saying they could refinance a 300k note if the house was ‘worth’ $150k.)

Vegas is a good example of the ’shortage’; from 4,000 foreclosures a month to 80 after the law was passed. I’d guess that really there aren’t that many sales happening. Ownership rates are falling. We’ve been through this before; how much is real and how much is hype? Last week I find stories of people camping out for houses. Now it’s condotels. Recently we see people writing love letters to sellers. 168 offers on a Washington house that sells for double the asking price. It’s really kinda funny.

Comment by polly
2013-02-12 14:06:04

That is only for a refi. I have never heard of a program like that for a new purchase.

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Comment by Blue Skye
2013-02-12 14:45:37

“I heard one the other day saying they could refinance a 300k note if the house was ‘worth’ $150k”

The same is being aired here in NY.

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Comment by GrizzlyBear
2013-02-12 22:02:47

“But I do feel sorry for all the people who will be priced out and will have to continue to shack up to pay the rent.”

Boy, have you ever imbibed the Kool-Aid.

 
 
Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 09:57:22

I’ve never understood “condotels”.

I’ve never understood the allure of Vegas.

It’s the perfect example of a place that you pay short-term rent to visit.

Comment by AmazingRuss
2013-02-12 10:24:21

Vegas is great on hallucinogens.

 
Comment by Montana
2013-02-12 14:10:40

I never got it either, but ended up working there for a few years. Great work for musicians back in the day, but I still wouldn’t go there on vacay.

 
 
 
Comment by 2banana
2013-02-12 07:11:31

So many signs of the obama housing bubble v2.0

How is this?

On one side of the street you have house flippers and people with 120%/zero down/liars loans buying way-overpriced housing

and

On the other side of the street you have people living in the same exact house paying NOTHING for years and years.

Isn’t bigger and bigger government GREAT.

I am sure glad the bad old days of when the market set housing prices (cough - affordable - cough) and banks had to EAT their bad loans are OVER.

Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, we are free at last…

“On the surface, stopping foreclosures is great. But banking lobbyists and housing experts say it has created another problem — people staying in their homes without paying the mortgage and with no intention of doing so. These so-called ’strategic squatters’ are potentially creating another housing bubble and slowing the Nevada housing market’s recovery, analysts said.”

Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 07:23:35

Yeah, we’ve hit Ludicrous Speed:

‘‘I think the ’shadow inventory’ is the main thing that’s keeping homebuilders from moving into Nevada,’ said Breslow. ‘The threat of 52,000 homes marching toward foreclosure keeps it unstable.’..His optimism aside, Breslow said the $150 million pot of money can only go so far. That might help 700 or 800 homes’

Comment by 2banana
2013-02-12 07:45:22

Let it fall…

Let the market set housing prices…

Get the government out of the housing industry..

We actually had a presidential candidate who said those things

Buy he was evil incarnate to at least half on this board.

And the 47% still wanted their cheese.

So now we are going to get everything coming to us.

“Deserves got nothing to do with it.” - William Munny

 
Comment by Northeastener
2013-02-13 07:55:45

Yeah, we’ve hit Ludicrous Speed:

Oh, no… we’re full on Plaid now.

 
 
Comment by Carl Morris
2013-02-12 09:07:34

These so-called ’strategic squatters’ are potentially creating another housing bubble and slowing the Nevada housing market’s recovery, analysts said.

Yeah, give people free money and then blame them for taking it.

 
Comment by AmazingRuss
2013-02-12 10:30:23

Obama made the first housing bubble? Damn him and his time machine!

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower™
2013-02-12 08:24:57

“Matt Brimhall, VP of sales at Trump Las Vegas, said units that cost $1,000 a square foot to build are being sold at $500 a square foot.”

I never did get that Trump math.

But didn’t The Donald go bankrupt once or twice?

Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 09:13:02

Again with the smart money:

‘We’ve got hedge funds where money is no object,’ Smith said…’They can go overseas and talk to clients about buying something in Las Vegas for less than the cost to produce it.’

There’s something about the term ‘money is no object’ that doesn’t inspire confidence.

Comment by GrizzlyBear
2013-02-12 22:00:23

If money is no object, why are they desperately chasing returns?

 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower™
2013-02-12 08:27:02

“Our community leaders, financial experts, residents, must at long last listen to the experts, see the changes in the attitudes of the young, and step away from the time machine, because the past is no longer there to greet us.”

Uh…isn’t it the so-called experts who are leading the cheer and pulling all the levers to reflate the housing bubble?

 
Comment by Tarara Boomdea
2013-02-12 08:45:14

My rent here in Las Vegas is twice what I’d pay on a mortgage. Even if I was sure about buying (which I’m not, given the underlying condition of the market, possible AB 284 revision, HELOC resetting, high unemployment), there’s nothing available in our price range, which continues to be snatched up by cash buyers.

A house on our street we considered renting three years ago just sold. When we saw it, it was in very nice shape, recently renovated. It foreclosed, sold for $125K and flipped for $190K.

Comment by 2banana
2013-02-12 09:08:45

Please shut-up and pay your fair share.

Comment by oxide
2013-02-12 09:43:11

Be nice, bananaboi.

Thank you for the local information, Tarara! I also find it interesting that someone will pay over $500k for a 2-bed condo on the strip, but you can buy a decent house for $190K 5 miles away. I suppose there’s a lot of $$pride$$ in saying “I have a condo on the strip.”

 
 
Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 09:18:55

Thats interesting as one of our PM’s just rented a 3500sq ft, 5 year old house with a pool in Vegas for $800/month.

Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 09:59:26

How long was the lease?

Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 10:05:34

2 year with 1 month renewal option.

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Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 10:19:16

Nice.

Vegas, from housing to the casinos, it’s all boom/bust…

 
 
 
Comment by Tarara Boomdea
2013-02-12 14:31:04

What area, pray tell?
Once more unto the breach.

Comment by rms
2013-02-12 15:40:44

“What area, pray tell?”

Likely where the nocturnal animals are always running from the low flying helicopters with spotlights.

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Comment by oxide
2013-02-12 19:36:17

If you look on Zillow.com and choose the “for rent” filter, there ARE a few large houses for rent at that size. But either that’s a typo or a trashy looking house.

Houses half that size are renting for the same.

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Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 20:52:26

If you got honest with yourself, you’d get honest with everyone here.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2013-02-12 08:50:13

“We must plan a real future based on different economic pillars in addition to the proliferation of rooftops. New Arizonans should be always welcome. But we have to make sure they have jobs. Powerful as it is, the housing market has let Arizona down once too often for it to stand alone again.”

Why am I reminded of Charlie Brown and the football?

Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 10:08:08

‘builders are making a mad dash to buy more lots to keep up with demand,’ said Charley Freericks, president of Scottsdale-based developer DMB. ‘We have gone over the numbers carefully and see 17,000 new homes going up this year.’

Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 10:24:20

What was the peak construction in greater Phoenix…50k? 60k? My biggest question in Phoenix is the vacancy rate…how many excess rooftops are there currently? If that excess is under control (I’m not so sure it is except for the better submarkets), my understanding is that given longer-term population growth trends, housing starts can get upwards of 30k per year without things getting too out of hand.

Now, if they get back to 40k, 50k, 60k…different story.

Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 10:28:16

Now now…..

With 20+ MILLION excess empty houses, new supply could stop today and demand would be met for years to come.

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Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 10:43:02

From the comments to the AZ Republic article:

‘I read the first paragraph of this article and almost vomited! It just goes to show that I am proven right once again - no one in this state has a bit of sense when it comes to business and the economy. 5 years ago when the housing market tanked, there were articles galore about how AZ needs to expand it’s economy away from “growth” (which isn’t an economic driver but a side effect of a strong economy). There was talk of limiting growth, focusing on high wage jobs/industries, letting business drive the growth of housing rather than the other way around. I had some hope that this time, it would come to be, but what a foolish thought that was. Here we go again - the third or fourth time since I’ve lived in AZ, that the greedy developers and state land dept. are pushing housing and growth as the eceonmic growth engine - when it has been proven time and time again to only drive short term growth followed by a crash. What’s that saying - those who ignore the past tend to repeat it? SO why do we think that THIS time paving over the desert, building homes on spec, and creating low paying retail and service jobs is the answer to our economic dolcrums when it has never been true in the past? Industry doesn’t follow home growth - we know that! Look at states where they have high paying jobs/industry - you wouldn’t see an article about housing on the front page of the local newspaper like in AZ. You wouldn’t see massive “master planned communities” destroying the landscape - but you would see a robust resale market (high prices come from a limited supply and a high demand). I could go on and on, but suffice it to say, this article is nothing but bad news for the long term economy of AZ and all the cheerleading by Reagor and the local developers who want to make a fast buck building crappy homes won’t change that at all.’

‘Absolutely no mention here of infill projects, such as Mandalay’s Montana Vista development in south Phoenix, which is selling rapidly at $300k and above per home. A few other builders have also come back to south Phoenix, from the SoMo area to Laveen.’

‘Do we really need a smack upside the head in the form of photos of entire neighborhoods filled with vacant foreclosed homes - all in the fringes of the Valley? Please, Arizona, for once and for all: unlimited growth is not the answer to our economic troubles. Real estate bust in late 80’s; real estate bust in 2006; next one:? Stop trashing what’s left of the desert to build more shoddy cookie-cutter subdivisions and look to infill projects. And, oh yeah, let’s look at diversifying the economic growth plan, instead of once again putting all the eggs in the same basket.’

The EV Tribune comments:

‘the Light Rail has brought redevelopment to the blighted areas it runs through. The biggest mistake they are making with Light Rail is they are only piddling around and building a mile or two at a time. In the long run this drives up the costs as inflation increases prices. There should be one massive project to extend the Light Rail all the way to Apache Junction, if not past the Superstitions where there are plans for homes for another 1,000,000 people. Yes, it would be expensive, but it would cost far less to do it in one project than it will to do it in 30 projects over the next 60 years. Nickle and diming things NEVER pays off.’

‘where is the water for a million more homes going to come from? The water table in this valley has dropped over 40 feet in the last 3 decades. Soon the water bill will exceed the mortgage.’

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Comment by Jingle Male
2013-02-12 16:12:15

“It will be different this time.”

This has been posted many times on this blog.

This truism applies to both downturns and upturns. There is not much any of us can do to change it. The best we can do is invest wisely and let the chips fall where they may.

 
Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 17:44:16

The best thing you can do is EXIT housing.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Always Backcheck
2013-02-12 10:11:48

Caveat Emptor wherever and whenever Michael Orr discusses housing.

 
Comment by Mo Money
2013-02-12 12:16:39

“What we have been learning about the next generation of families is that the Great Recession has taught many of them that a 30-year mortgage might not be the most desirable thing, both from a financial standpoint and from the outlook of a quick pivot to a new community to take advantage of.”

I think that is giving young people a bit too much credit. Chances are they have student debt to pay down or simply don’t make enough money yet to purchase a home. And a lot of people wait until they are married so they can choose a home together. I know I didn’t start buying property until I was in my 30’s.

Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 13:17:03

“Chances are they have student debt to pay down or simply don’t make enough money yet to purchase a home.”

All in good time. Prices will fall to dramatically lower levels to meet affordability.

Comment by howiewowie
2013-02-12 17:37:15

But when? After my kids are grown and I can see retirement looming over the horizon? Unfortunately that would be too long for me.

 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2013-02-12 22:10:44

You didn’t start buying property until liar loans surfaced. You’re a liar, and were perfectly qualified.

 
 
Comment by Pete
2013-02-12 14:30:47

““Steady improvement in metro Phoenix’s new-home market has developers and homebuilders scrambling to buy property for dozens of new subdivisions projected to spring up over the next few years.”

Yet in Nevada, builders are shying away from Vegas because they’re “worried about the shadow inventory”? Seems to me that if they’re worried about it in Vegas, they’d be worried about it in Phoenix too.

Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 15:11:29

Phoenix has continued to foreclose…non-current loan rate is currently at 7.3%…10th BEST in the country. “Normal” is 5%, so there are an excess 2.3% points of distress to work through…a reasonable measure of the amount of shadow inventory.

Nevada changed their laws making it harder to foreclose. Non-current loan rate in NV is at 14.7% (4th WORST in the country), 9.7% of distress to work through.

By this measure of shadow inventory (and I’m open minded if people think there is a better one), Nevada has 4x the shadow inventory of Arizona.

Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 15:30:39

Phoenix alone a hundreds of thousands of excess empty houses.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 16:25:43

‘non-current loan rate is currently at 7.3%…10th BEST in the country’

This comparison stuff is pointless. Miami is better than Las Vegas, New Jersey is worse than Massachusetts! Who cares? These are some of the highest default rates in history.

“Normal” is 5%’

I don’t know where you got that. I followed the loan meltdown step by step through the ratings agency reports in 2005-06. They started freaking out when 1% of loans in any particular tranche went delinquent.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2013-02-12 16:29:09

I don’t know where you got that. I followed the loan meltdown step by step through the ratings agency reports in 2005-06. They started freaking out when 1% of loans in any particular tranche went delinquent.

Which is why Yours Truly just can’t quit this blog. Sorry, Ben, I don’t know what to say. But I just can’t leave you.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2013-02-12 16:56:12

It’s that detailed reporting of events as they happen, including dates and percentage figures, that makes me swoon. Because I have a thing for precise data.

 
Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 17:39:27

I don’t know where you got that.

You know exactly where. Directly from the Housing Crime Syndicate’s liar narrative.

 
Comment by aqius
2013-02-13 17:55:30

don’t feel too bad, AZ Slim . . .

personally, I could never subscribe to a blog that would have me.

 
 
Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 19:46:48

I was responding to the question as to why builders are worried about shadow inventory in Las Vegas, but not AZ. The non-current loans shows where there is the excess of shadow inventory.

LPS reports non-current loans, and in some of their mortgage monitors, they go back to the mid-90’s showing non-current rates then and now.

See page 16 of the enclosed PDF:

http://www.lpsvcs.com/LPSCorporateInformation/CommunicationCenter/DataReports/MortgageMonitor/201212MortgageMonitor/MortgageMonitorDecember2012.pdf

This shows the data going back to 1995. Note the 1995-2005 data…DQ% averaged 4.32%, FC% averaged 0.53%. The total of the two is approximately 5%. Most delinquencies are short-term…someone misses one payment, and then catches back up. It is the exception that a delinquency goes all the way through to a foreclosure.

A significant portion of the non-current loans today are also short-term delinquencies. At last measure, approximately 5.3 million loans were non-current…2.0MM were under 90 days delinquent.

Note North Dakota on page 20 of the PDF, complete with housing shortages and “man camps”…even their energy market and housing market booming, they have a 3.3% non-current loan rate.

Why care?

Because delinquencies and foreclosures directly change market dynamics and impact prices…when the delinquencies and foreclosures dry up, market dynamics change.

Because people like to point out national numbers of shadow inventory, without regard to the fact that the distress is not spread evenly throughout the country.

Because people like to think that all foreclosure processes are made equal, yet tracking non-current loan rates can clearly point you in the direction of markets that are getting through the distress fastest.

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Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 19:54:32

“I was responding to the question”

And you lied.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 19:58:42

‘A significant portion of the non-current loans today are also short-term delinquencies. At last measure, approximately 5.3 million loans were non-current…2.0MM were under 90 days delinquent.’

OK, how many subprime loans are we talking about? How many FHA or USDA? And then prime loans. Cuz we’re told the subprime is all over. If you’ve got 5% prime loan default, that’s another matter. How many are in default in less than a year of the purchase, and so forth. You see, I’ve been doing this for a while. Anyway, I don’t care to argue over this stuff. Buy a house in Phoenix. I’ll give you half in 2 or 3 years, IF you fix everything up first.

BTW, short term delinquencies? I wonder how short term I could be delinquent on my rent?

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 22:16:08

You asked where I got 5%, implying that I was ill informed (at best), and noted that 1% was considered quite high.

I showed you my source…and you deflect. At least you didn’t call me a liar…that was left to RAL (and he didn’t disappoint).

BTW, I think the 1% that you are referencing must have been severe delinquencies/foreclosures, not ALL non-current loans. Severe delinquencies/foreclosures have generally been below 1%, so it wouldn’t surprise me that people started to freak out when that number exceeded 1%.

The reason I noted the 2.0MM short-term delinquencies is because that number is approximately 4% of all mortgages, and has been pretty steady over 2012 (average number of less than 90 day delinquent loans was 2.01 million for 2012). This is pretty close to “normal”–I don’t expect this number to get much better.

The action nationwide has been in the decreasing of loans 90+ delinquent or in the foreclosure process. The amount of 90+/foreclosure loans was:

4.4 million in August 2010;
4.3 million by the end of 2010;
4.1 million by mid 2011;
3.85 million by the end of 2011;
3.65 million by mid 2012;
3.25 million by the end of 2012.

For us to be “normal”, this 3.25 million needs to get to 500k or less.

We have a long way to go, I won’t dispute that…my point is, quite simply, that we have farther to go in some places than others.

I guess I don’t understand why this point strikes such a nerve. It’s supported by the data.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2013-02-12 22:29:40

‘I showed you my source…and you deflect’

Do you know what % foreclosure rate brings down surrounding prices and by how much? Look it up; how many surrounding foreclosures by percentage result in how much of a price drop? I posted this in detail in 2005. Here’s a hint; it’s a lot lower than 5%. A 5% delinquency rate is insane!

Let’s really get crazy. How long from the last peak in 1990’s California foreclosures until the price bottom? That should keep you busy for a while since you obviously haven’t read this blog very long.

Again, funny that I’m a lowly renter with no mortgage interest/property tax deduction, yet I find a way to pay my rent on time every month, but 5% of the FB’s in Phoenix can’t..

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 23:01:43

You seem to be missing my point.

Both of your questions relate to the existence of foreclosures causing reductions in prices.

I get it, and I agree. Lots of foreclosures=price drops. There is no dispute. That’s why I’m paying attention to what is happening to foreclosures and foreclosure inventories. Are there more? Less? How are they being dealt with? Are laws getting in the way? Are laws allowing more foreclosures to happen?

Looking at today’s numbers is only marginally interesting. What is really interesting is what is happening to the distress/foreclosure inventory over time. I’m looking at that data and simply commenting that distress/foreclosures are getting dealt with better in some places than others.

Are there still a high level of distress/foreclosures in CA?

Absolutely.

Are there still a high level of distress/foreclosures in AZ?

Yup.

Is it getting worse in either place?
Not by a long shot.

Peak non-current in CA was 15.3% in February 2010.
December of 2012 that number was 7.6%. Almost 8 points of excess wiped out in 34 months. There are only 2.6 points to go to get to “normal”. How long will that take? By my math, the end of 2013.

Peak non-current in AZ was 16.3% in February 2010.
December of 2012 that number was 7.3%. 9 points wiped out in 34 months, 2.3 points to go…how long? By my math, end of 2013, if not sooner.

Peak percentage in foreclosure in CA was 3.9% September-November 2009.
December of 2012 that number was 1.7%.

Peak percentage in foreclosure in AZ was 4.7% in December 2010
December 2012 that number was 1.6%.

Florida peak % in foreclosure in October 2011 at 14.4% (later and higher peak than CA or FL), and is now 11.6%

Florida peak % non-current in February 2010 at 23.8%, now is 19.3%. 4.5 points in 34 months…14.3 points to go…how long? A LONG friggin’ time–upwards of a decade unless they speed things up.

I never said the distress was gone now…I said it was working its way out of the system much better in places like CA and AZ than in FL. And that CA and AZ are much farther along and will be done sooner.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-12 23:19:59

“Do you know what % foreclosure rate brings down surrounding prices and by how much? Look it up; how many surrounding foreclosures by percentage result in how much of a price drop? I posted this in detail in 2005. Here’s a hint; it’s a lot lower than 5%. A 5% delinquency rate is insane!”

You keep adding things to your comments…5% delinquent is not the same as 5% in foreclosure.

Historically, at any given time, about 4.5% of loans were at some stage of delinquency (missed a payment or two). Many of these cure and become loans in good standing again. Sometimes they don’t cure, and for round numbers, at any given time 0.5% of loans are in the foreclosure process.

This 0.5% ballooned to over 4% for a time in the US as a whole…about EIGHT TIMES normal. Even after all that has been foreclosed, we are still at 3.4%…7 times normal.

You’re right, this is completely insane.

How to get rid of this? Foreclose on the damn homes and resell them to the market.

The problem is that judicial states can’t get out of their own way, so homes get through the process slowly. Places like FL, NY, NJ are still at 11.6% (20x PLUS normal), 6.1% (10x PLUS normal, and 8.2% (15x PLUS normal), respectively. If 4% is insane, 6-11% is friggin’ Jack Nicholson in the Shining.

At the same time, non-judicial states are getting through the process much faster. Places like CO, AZ, and CA are now at 1.1% (2x), 1.6% (3x) and 1.7% (a bit over 3x), respectively. Still not “normal”, but trending in the right direction MUCH faster than judicial states.

If judicial states were to ever foreclose faster (releasing the homes onto the market)…watch out…I’ve told people who are buying rentals in FL that I think they’re crazy.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2013-02-13 07:58:36

For us to be “normal”, this 3.25 million needs to get to 500k or less.

RW, if you’re right about this…

Doesn’t the trend-line in that semi-annual data you posted suggest approximately 7 more years would be required at that rate to get to 500k or less? Except for the last data-point, the rate is fairly constant.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2013-02-13 10:07:15

PIC, that’s where looking state by state matters. It very well could be 5-7 years (or longer) before all the distress has been flushed through the system.

However, some states are on track to be done in a year or less.

Others much longer.

Many of those that are on pace to take a long time seem to have picked up the pace recently, as many of the FBs in court have delayed as much as they can.

Again, I think it will be YEARS before all the distress has been washed through the system (no less than 3-5, but could be a fair bit longer). HOWEVER, when we get to the last years of this run, the bulk of the distress will be located in relatively few states.

 
Comment by localandlord
2013-02-15 06:23:45

“BTW, short term delinquencies? I wonder how short term I could be delinquent on my rent?”

Ben, if you rented from me I would probably wait 30-40 days to send you an eviction letter. From there the process would take 2-3 months.

But then I wouldn’t have rented to you in the first place if you didn’t have good credentials.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower©
2013-02-12 15:23:32

Speaking of siren songs…

L.A. NOW
Southern California — this just in
Dorner gun battle: 2 officers shot, ‘deputies are everywhere’
February 12, 2013 | 1:54 pm

Map: Approximate location of incident shown in red

Fugitive former police officer Christopher Dorner allegedly shot and wounded at least two San Bernardino County sheriff’s deputies during a shootout with authorities in the Big Bear area Tuesday afternoon, sources said.

Dozens of law enforcement officers were racing to the last reported scene of a gun battle near the 7 Oaks cabin area near Big Bear.

“There are deputies everywhere on the ground and on foot,” said Cindy Bachman, a San Bernardino County sheriff’s spokeswoman.

The shooting occurred after Dorner burglarized a home, tied up a couple and stole a white pickup truck, sources said. San Bernardino County sheriff’s spokeswoman Jodi Miller confirmed deputies responded to a vehicle theft about 12:20 p.m., and the resident who reported the theft said the suspect matched Dorner’s description.

The U.S. Forest Service confirms there was an exchange of gunfire between officers on foot and the suspect, in the Santa Ana River drainage, north of State Highway 38 and south of Big Bear Valley. At least one officer of the California Department of Fish and Wildlife was involved, said John Miller, San Bernardino National Forest spokesman. That officer is not believed to be injured.

Dorner’s status was not immediately known as the gunfight continued.

Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb Thrower™
2013-02-12 19:28:37

Sounds like this grim tale ended with a grim ending.

Comment by GrizzlyBear
2013-02-12 22:15:04

I can’t help but believe there’s some truth to Dorner’s allegations. However, he went off the rails.

 
 
 
Comment by rms
2013-02-12 15:31:55

“2012 was all about low inventory, which has been driving up home prices,” explains Orr, director of the Center for Real Estate Theory and Practice at the W.P. Carey School of Business.

Does this pr*ck’s theories include shadow inventory manipulation?

Comment by Pimp Watch
2013-02-12 15:49:02

Like others forewarned, take Orr’s comments lightly. His nonsense is so deep that he could be mistaken for Pinocchio.

 
 
Comment by rms
2013-02-13 00:01:47

Obama said none of his plans would increase the deficit “by a single dime.”

 
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