The Housing Bubble

Well of course the newer guys make less. That’s what the markets dictate. Markets for labor are not static. You must be one of those people who think that post WWII - 1970 or 1980 US middle class standard of living was the norm. It was an anomaly which will be even more apparent as more and more time passes.

‘it was an anomaly’

yup.

Well of course the newer guys make less

I realize that, but they made way less. The salary structure and/or jobs were rejiggered, redefined, and combined with others, so they’d never make what the top managers used to make, no matter how long they stayed, even thought they usually ended up with more work and responsibilities than those they replaced.

Was it an anomaly, or did it work exactly as predicted?

More money and security went to the middle and lower classes, they spent more, and we had a robust economy.

We chose to quit following this course, lowered taxes on the rich and squeezed everybody else, and here we are with a stagnant economy and all the money in the hands of the few. Exactly like we had before we tried Keynesian economics.

It worked. We even had nearly paid off the debts from the Depression and WW2, until Reagan and Greenspan took the wheel, ending the Keynesian period, and our shared prosperity. (Though the rich kept doing quite well.)

I Dunno. My BFF’s SIL just got a new job for 70K I thought that was impressive for a 29-30 year old.

But he’s a tech wizard so I guess they all make good money.

I could have taken a computer class my senior year in high school but I went to college instead. I am the same age as Bill Gates.

I dunno, I don’t envy the tech wizards their lifestyle.

You must be one of those people who think that post WWII - 1970 or 1980 US middle class standard of living was the norm. It was an anomaly .

If the 1945-1980 job structure was such an anamoly, then why does HBB think that house prices will revert to the “norm” of 1945-1980? If our jobs are going to go back to the 1890’s, then shouldn’t our house prices do the same, i.e. where only the rich actually own and everyone else rents?

I Dunno. My BFF’s SIL just got a new job for 70K I thought that was impressive for a 29-30 year old.

As a techie you are considered to be in your “prime” at that age. 29-30 year olds were making that 70K 20 years ago. So techies have been losing ground as well.

If the 1945-1980 job structure was such an anamoly, then why does HBB think that house prices will revert to the “norm” of 1945-1980? If our jobs are going to go back to the 1890’s, then shouldn’t our house prices do the same, i.e. where only the rich actually own and everyone else rents?

What was the transaction price of the house you bought?

What is the square footage of the house you bought?

The real fix is to go single-payer, like every other advanced economy has.

But nooooo, that would be socialism, and bureaucratic death panels snuffing granny.

So we get Obamacare, designed primarily to keep the vampire squids of the insurance-healthcare industrial complex happy.

Of course, it was originally a Republican plan. The only reason Repubs are pizzed, is because he hijacked their idea.

plus one to that, jetfixr. obamacare is just a can-kicking of the present failed model. the system will collapse under its own weight and be replaced by single-payer.

single payer would be smart, esp. if it completely cut out private insurance rather than using them to process claims.

Where was I 30 years ago? In diapers laying in a crib.

I reserve the right to mock 2Ban’s posts because they’re about as insightful to real conservative thinking as Mark Kirk’s grindr.com profile.

Blue:

No it’s not.

Big V back in the house…

Offshore your jobs to other countries and import uneducated people, I am sure this will end nicely.

I am for legalizing illegals, but the effect is going to be catastrophic for the young and the low skilled in this country.

Joe, didn’t you take some economics courses as an undergraduate? You should know the answer. The problem is high unemployment. The solution is higher economic growth. The fact that certain groups are suffering more from the high unemployment isn’t particularly noteworthy.

The fact that certain groups are suffering more from the high unemployment isn’t particularly noteworthy.

———-

That’s just not true. There is a lot of research on how human capital is developed and how early-career development has long term effects on lifestyle choices, quality of life, health, etc. Moreover, a society which transfers vast sums of money from the young to the old is a) ripe for massive public choice problems/misallocation of resources and b) unsustainable because you will eventually have a collapse in living standards, human capital, asset prices.

I wasn’t saying I have answers or pushing a partisan point. Just driving home the fact that there is no “recovery” no matter what the aggregate UE #s are. It absolutely matters who is jobless and why. Now, whether the government can or should do anything about it… that’s a different subject entirely.

“How do we get back to this type of natural balance?”

I’ve got a great idea: How about if we expend tax dollars and Fed QE3 on reflating the real estate bubble? That will create more private sector jobs, which everyone knows are inherently more beneficial to the economy than government jobs, for whatever purpose.

Speaking of illegals, looks like the Gang of 8 in the Senate have hammered out some kind of deal: path to citizenship. But there are a lot of requirements. 10 years for a green card, 3 more years to citizenship.

My question is: what happens during those 10 years while all these folks are presumably still illegal? Are the Fed gonna bust them, or employers, for working? Or will there be some moratorium on deportations? It seems to me that the path to citizenship is a moot point if the undocumenteds don’t want to be citizens, and only really care about working for peanuts without being deported.

what happens during those 10 years while all these folks are presumably still illegal?

I think everybody gets a temporary legal status immidiately. I have said before and will say it again nothing good comes out for most Americans when McCain and Graham are part of a “solution.” No wonder they are Democrats’ favorite republicans.

path to citizenship is a moot point if the undocumenteds don’t want to be citizens

They will become citizen and they will vote for a party that will promise free stuff. The illegals know very well that they have the right to have everything for free. And they will get it.

When they find out they have to pay taxes on worldwide income, the lure of shiny new green cards will fade.

I think everybody gets a temporary legal status immidiately.

Are you sure about this? There’s going to be a firestorm when this news hits the MSM.

According to my brother in the Border Patrol, a lot of the illegal problem has fixed itself.

No jobs = no illegals crossing to look for jobs.

Welcome to modern day slavery… you work and the government takes everything you earn.

In order to give the money to the “correct” groups for their votes and support to stay in power.

Hey - what is the first things public union goon does when he retires from NYS with a golden pension?

A: Sells his house and moves to a low tax and right to work state.

And no, they could care less if you go into bankruptcy and sell all of your 401k to pay the insane property taxes. Pay up sucker!

“…..low to mid six figure income…..”

And an $8K tax bill puts them in a bind?

They could dump the house in NY, buy one/two/three out here in BFE, and pay 1-1.5% on property taxes.

Of course, renting the place out for more than about $1000/month might be a problem, seeing as how that is out of reach for 85% of the local gentry. And this assumes you can actually find renters with decent ($20/hr) jobs.

and an $8K tax bill puts them in a bind?

You underestimate the cost of living in MA in general and living on an island like Martha’s Vineyard in particular… they pay$2400/mo just in rent. Add in taxes, food, fuel, insurance, a car payment, the cost of a having a couple of young children and a house in a high-tax state like New York with a mortgage and a renter who is behind on rent and the paycheck disappears quickly.

Who makes them live in a high-tax state?

Sounds like a couple who owns a home and makes $150K a year has money problems and it’s everyone’s fault but theirs. Not the first time I’ve heard that sob story on the HBB.

Maybe they should move from the Vineyard over to Hyannis or Falmouth? Sounds like they don’t make enough for their lifestyle. Why do you blame the $8000 upstate taxes instead of the high cost of living to be on Martha’s Vineyard?

Ewww, Hyannis or Falmouth? As if!

Nice strawman, no one said Bill didn’t have a job. I’m calling him out on his hypocrisy. He bemoans the policestate and the military industrial complex, etc. But he makes his money programming missiles for a DoD contractor. We make about the same money and both nibble off of DoD private contractor money. The difference is, he thinks he can do that and “ignore” the police state.

The difference is, he thinks he can do that and “ignore” the police state.

But you think you can do that and escape all responsibility by saying stuff like ‘both parties $uck’, or ‘I voted independent’, or ‘it shouldn’t be this way, but it is’.

I’m not sure I see the difference.

He thinks he is being moral and living his values.

I admit my decisions are amoral at best and that i am not living my beliefs.

And he has a nice tax dodge working as well.

Actually, if you couldn’t find another job, then you wouldn’t.

“Creating a job can mean freelancing.”

Freelancing often means full time work for part time pay. Any time not directly producing income is eaten up by bookkeeping, marketing, and management tasks usually done by other employees in a medium to large business. If you decide to outsource those tasks, the cost of hiring some other freelancer to do them comes out of your bottom line.

One of the benefits of freelancing is that you can employ your younger relatives to do some of the tasks, giving them resume building experience.

I could create a few jobs with my sideline deal.

-If …
As I mentioned, easy to write, not so easy to DO.

The “benefits” of 401k/IRA are very lame. The companies aren’t lobbying for the consumer/investor to be treated well, they’re lobbying to be able to nickel and dime you. And they LOVE the fact that your money is tied up until age 65+. They also don’t have to pay a premium to lock up the money since the gov’t will penalize you heavily if you ever want to do an early w/d.

From the perspective of the retirement planning “industry”, it’s a hustle. And people line up to get ripped off. Amazing stuff, really.

What joe smith said.

I’m still laughing on my deal……

Former employer only matched company stock in 401K. Decided to get out in 2007 while the getting was good. Everyone gave me hell for doing it, because of the 10% penalty. Used the money to pay off everything, and have a cash cushion when (as inevitably happens in my business when the economy tanks) I got laid off.

Sold stock at $56….got up to $63, then imploded like everything else in 2008. Hit a low of around $9. Hasn’t been above $25 since.

May never get to $56 again, unless we get in a no-BS shooting war, or the Main Street/USA manufacturing market recovers.
Like anyone in Washington or on Wall Street is worried about that.

And they LOVE the fact that your money is tied up until age 65+

Not quibbling, but isn’t it until age 59 1/2 ?

- you’re still locking it up until age 65 or paying penalties to pull out your own money
- you’re not being paid a premium for this locking up of your money
- you can’t just take the whole thing as a big lump (without penalty)
- you’re still paying taxes on the money either when you put it into the account or when you w/d it (depends on which type of IRA or if you’re using a 401k)
- the tax dodge is nothing like “small businesses” get, it’s only enough to make you think it’s a good deal (which, see above, it’s not)
- if we ever hit a really bad fiscal crisis, good chance a large sized 401k/IRA gets you means-tested or taxed as part of “balancing the budget”.

RE: Locking it up unit you’re 5. I think with the Roth IRA after the money has been in there 5 years or more you can take it out - at lest the principle.

John Bogle’s book is also pretty good.

That said, Vanguard or other index funds are still part of a system that has restrictions on your money, very limited tax advantages, and makes you a target for means-testing or special taxation of 401k/IRA w/d in the future.

No thanks!

“…obtuse…”

I’m tired — had to drive kids to class at 6am and haven’t turned on the coffee maker yet. But I just wanted to make the briefest reference to Vanguard as a reminder that not all mutual fund companies follow the ‘rape the customer while pretending to help him save for retirement’ business model.

That is all.

If you have to look up your money until age 65+ and can’t do a lump sum withdrawal even at that time, that, my friend, is not a good deal. You should be getting a heavy premium. Moreover, all that money is locked up, it can’t be used to generate both short term profits and used to create “losses” for tax purposes (depreciation, amortization, loopholes).

“Having a big pool of money well-documented for the government is for lazy loosers [sic].”

Any account you have that has your social security number on it is “well-documented” by the government. Any account.

No one seems to pay any attention when I mention this, but a few years ago, when I took my friends to the IRS service center to take care of some of the years they hadn’t filed. They also had to report an identity theft issue. The woman who was handling their identity theft issue typed for a moment or two on her computer and informed my friends of a *non-interest bearing* account that someone had opened under his name and SS number in California. The account generated no income at all and the IRS had it in their system. The woman told them that as far as the government was concerned, he owned that account.

The government knows about your retirement accounts. It also knows about all your other accounts.

No one seems to pay any attention when I mention this,”

I hear you I also think a 401K is safer than cash in the Bank. OJ simpson got to keep his retirement but cash in a Bank or invested. bu bye.

I think Switerland is now complying with the USA in sharing info on big accounts ?

Hiding cash like Mitt Romey is far beyond my skill level or ability. They would crush me like they are crushing the Gold Bugs today.

I get your complaints against a 401k I guess, but it seems to me that it would be way more efficient to just get better at your current job than it would be to start a second line of employment with rental houses or a small business. Whether ‘better’ means going “bill in la” or starting your own company focusing on your skill or continually changing companies until you have maxxed out your salary - those are all relevant strategies.

I know what is involved in running a restaurant or fixing rental houses, and those aren’t passive income sources like a 401k or IRA or just regular investing is. They are full-time jobs, and I understand diversification, but our free time is not a growing commodity.

IOW, your strategy is great if your only goal is to make money and if your original job allowed you to make enough to start a second business, but terrible for everything else. And you want to talk about hidden fees- just wait until you get your first rental.

I know what is involved in running a restaurant or fixing rental houses, and those aren’t passive income sources like a 401k or IRA or just regular investing is. They are full-time jobs, and I understand diversification, but our free time is not a growing commodity.

Exactly!

My former landlady left a PT job so that she could concentrate on her rental property business. Which turned out to be much more than a FT job.

I felt sorry for her because she had so little free time.

This iPad kills me. “different.”

This is piddling compared to what an aggressive person with a sizable stack of cash can do.

My experience is different. I put 10,000 dollars in an S&P 500 index fund in February 2001. I pulled it out in July 2011. I had just about 11,000 dollars. Most of the time it was in the fund, it was underwater (worth less than 10,000).

Perhaps rolling in 10K now, and waiting another 10 years will result in a 10% annual appreciation. But I kind of doubt it. No one knows for sure though.

“this time it’s diddle rent!”

That was an awesome iPadism.

I pulled it out in July 2011. I had just about 11,000 dollars.

In fall 2007, it should have been much higher but I know you can’t time the market.

Past performance is always an indicator of future performance.

That’s why I have all my money in Pets.com stock.

Right Joe Smith, you did exactly that and beat the S & P 500.

J6P never had nor ever will have, a couple of grand just laying around.

What are these incredible investments one can get for two hundred thousand dollars that put you in the big leagues?

couple of hundred grand

What are these incredible investments one can get for two hundred thousand dollars that put you in the big leagues?
———–
None. Read the fine print in your average Ameritrade ad or e-trade ad. Straight off e-trade’s website:
“$250,000 or more will receive $500.” Invest $250k to get $500. Oh bam! They just kicked my investment up a notch!

You don’t even get a free personal advisor from a big bank unless you have 7 figures to invest, not a ‘couple of hundred grand’.

This advice is worthless.

@BillinLA - my parents have done this, as have my in laws. They own businesses (and the land/buildings) nad rental properties plus tons of money stuffed in better retirement accounts (for small business owners, although they all have/had well-paying day jobs).

The tax savings alone *crush* whatever lame return you get in a 401k/IRA. Also, by having cash easily accessible (not tied up til 65+) it’s easier to take advantage of duress and scoop up better assets.

My parents have made a killing buying tax liens, for example. Returns far above S&P 500, but you have to be savvy and work with an attorney.

Same thing for rental properties - you always buy a minimalist property, for cash, and pay all cash to have brought up to standard. You have to turn down 9 deals out of 10, but when you have the cash you can always buy more cheaply.

A 401k/IRA is a loser investment vehicle for many, many reasons. I could go on and on, but in short - not enough tax benefit (could give a laundry list here…), you have to wait until you’re old and wrinkly to touch it, you don’t have any managerial control over the invested companies, and there are stiff penalties if you take the money early.

Eco, you were right the first time.

Yeah, I know.

Sad ain’t it?

Eco, you were right the first time.

Speak for yourself.

You can self-direct an IRA, which is why one of your “wealthy guys” has $10’s of millions in an IRA. The options are far more limited in a 401k…but that tax-deferred 50% match sure is a nice thing. How many years of 0% market returns in your 401k until you ONLY are getting a 10% return on YOUR investment? 4 years? 4.5 years?

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t LOVE IRAs/401ks, but I take full advantage of them, and then put the rest of my money elsewhere.

If you keep an active business in an IRA, the income can be subject to tax unless you protect it by doing some fancy structural stuff using an offshore tax haven. That is why the huge IRA accounts were held in (or at least through) the Cayman Islands.

Google “blocker corporations.”

I just don’t understand how people have some much trouble with money. I never earned a lot but have always lived well below my means. (Never felt deprived except maybe the first 10 years of my work life.) Consequently I now have liquid assets 10X my income. I am in my early 50s.

You have to really push the boundaries of legality to do what Mittens did. In other words, be ready to litigate if necessary. I think that’s a bad idea, but he tried it and won, so good for him. He gets all that money and gets the extra satisfaction of knowing he screwed the country out of a ton of money but his party still nominated him to lead said country. I loathe him as a human being but respect him for completely abusing the people who write our tax codes.

@Polly, if what you own is stock in a privately held corporation (not partnership with flow-through taxation), do you need a “blocking” entity? Doesn’t the corporation itself serve as the blocker?

And you make it seem like creating offshore “blocking” entities is some underhanded trick limited to rich tax dodgers…many times such “blocking” entities are set up so that endowments/pension plans/foundations can invest in enterprises that would otherwise create taxable income for them. Their avoidance of tax is done quite out in the open.

Heck, even when Google set up their crazy tax avoidance scheme, they went to the IRS first to get sign-off on the whole thing.

When can we focus on fixing this kind of stuff?

If you own stock in a privately held domestic corporation that corporation is paying US taxes, to the extent that it can’t shelter its income in other ways. If you sell the stock and have held it for a while, you get long term capital gains treatment. Pretty standard structure for holding a business. No big deal.

Off shore blockers are used to shelter partnership income (hedge and/or private equity funds usually). The partnerships are off shore in tax havens so there is not tax in the jurisdiction where they are located. If you are a US citizen/resident, in normal circustances you would pay taxes on the pass through income of that fund. Even if you hold it through an IRA, the IRA is deemed to be in the business the partnership is in and if it is an active business, it would have to pay tax despite being a tax advantaged retirement savings account. Easy.

Now, put a blocker corporation in between the IRA and the partnership for no other reason than to avoid taxes, and you get to avoid all the taxes until you repatriate the funds. You can put off the taxes forever if you never repatriate the funds. Very useful for people who have more money than they can spend in a lifetime. Not much use to the rest of us.

I have never heard of Congress proposing that this aspect of the tax law be changed. Actually, I have heard of someone proposing that the same treatment be afforded to investments in hedge funds and private equity funds that don’t bother to set up the blocker corporation, but the Congressman got messed up in some ethics issues and the proposal never went anywhere.

Anon, some people just plain can’t manage their money.

But for most people, illness, accidents, wage freeze for years, industry collapse, offshored jobs, and unexpected high dollar repairs or house or car appliances, combined with recessions where they lose their job, again, are all it takes to never be able to have security and savings again.

Remember, HALF the US workforce makes $500 week or less. For almost 2 decades, that’s been the definition of poor or near poor. You basically live week to week on that kind of money. Insurance? Savings? Investments? HA! So problems come directly out of your pocket. Which just makes the hole deeper.

You can’t live below that. The only place below that is on the street.

Combined with inflation but wages not keeping up, well, yer screwed.

That’s why.

Joe Smith, you are speaking about how to become wealthy from an armchair. From your other posts I can tell you are young. You have not learned from Bogle or Jeremy Siegal. You ignore market cycles. You sound just like Robert Kiyosaki telling 50-something Bill in L.A. with his seven figure net worth that he cannot get to his seven figure net worth by his 401ks IRAs and outside stock mutual fund investments.

Mittens, as you’ll recall, put things into his IRA that J6P can’t touch in a million years.

And most of his wealth is not even in the US, much less some IRA or 401k.

And most of his wealth is not even in the US, much less some IRA or 401k.

Honestly, would you keep your money in US if you had money like Mittens?

It doesn’t require Mittens (TM) Money to be aggressive and exploit the parts of the code that are written for the “haves”. Save up a nice big pot of money then go talk to an aggressive CPA or tax lawyer.

Stop lumping together 401k and IRA. They are not even close to the same. If you have a 401k immediately move it to IRA when you change jobs or quit a job, without penalty.

Your shanty has nothing to do with it. It is your decision making that assured your bag-lady status.

Pimpy, what do you do for a living that allows you to harrass other posters here all day?

Can’t maintain messenging huh Debt-Boaster?

Well, you have implied that you don’t build houses, so it seemed pointless to keep asking you why you continue to build them. So what exactly do you do for a living in the field of “construction”? Most people here have been somewhat forthcoming about their jobs or professions.

And why do you always answer a question with a question, and never (ever ever) give an informative, truthful answer to any question you are asked?

There is a liar on the HBB. You.

It’s all been posted here before my dearest DebtCoaster… including photographs.

Carry on with your deceptions.

MiddleCoaster
Thank you. Pimp thinks all regional housing markets are all the same, and he likes to pick on folks who actually have penciled out the costs, and decided on THEIR best solution.
Ignore pimp. His head is up his you know what.

When? 2005? Before my time.

Given a guess, I would say that he’s in charge of ordering materials (in bulk) for a either a stick developer or a factory pre-fab builder. He definitely doesn’t “build” — ie weild a hammer — himself. He’s in front of a computer too much.

Again…

What was the transaction price

How many square foot is your shanty

What are you afraid of?

Thanks. I figured he works for a builder, and does not literally build stuff. Other than animosity.

“Builders”? LMAO

Don’t poke yourself with your knitting needles.

Pimpy, what do you do for a living that allows you to harrass other posters here all day?

He’s a landlord and and involved in home building, but not the actual doing any work part, just the sitting around in front of a computer part.

Ie., a parasite.

A desk jockey, talking his REIC employer’s book.

And talking tough and bullying, which usually means he’s a dumpy little guy.

Landlord? BWHAHAHAHAHA

Ok DebtJunkie.

The sort of character that might be played by Danny DeVito, perhaps?

If it’s not gone where is it?

If it’s not gone where is it?

The same place that the money went from Treasuries the gov sold. If we won’t pay what’s owed to joe6pack, then we shouldn’t pay what we owe the owners of Treasuries.

Or is it different because a lot of those are held by the wealthy? That makes the contract sacrosanct, right?

That makes the contract sacrosanct, right?
Yup, just as “sacrosanct” as a gold clause in a contract on 5 April 1933.

Where is it?

http://www.GAO.gov

+1, Slim. Somehow our American ‘nanny state’ doesn’t actually want to take care of its young. Or prevent them from happening in the first place.

Their excuse is that doing so would “send the wrong message” and promote promiscuous activity. It is the same excuse they give for not to legalize cannabis. In both cases the huge benefits are trumped by the simplistic “we don’t want to send the wrong message”. As though anyone about to fool around or take a bong hit is thinking “is this something George Bush would want me to be doing?” And if it does cross the mind the answer is likely “No. So let’s do it!”

this reply makes no sense. see joe smith’s above post 06:28:03

DJ, wtf are you talking about? Meat the least efficient way to produce protein. Not by a few percent, but by orders of magnitude.

And factory-farmed “meat” is disgusting when you look at its contents. (I do eat meat from time to time, it can be tasty, but not worth the health effects and organic/grass-fed are terms that have been bastardized by USDA.)

If the rest of the world ate more like ‘murka, food prices will go through the roof, fresh water will become a huge problem, the environmental effects will be incalculable (google the term “feed lot”), and people will be even fatter and now. The only winner will be Big Pharma and Big Agriculture. And possibly midwestern politicians (thanks to donations).

and people will be even fatter and now

Processed meat may be a culprit here. Then again the vegetarians in India are also a lot fatter than last generation.

Then again the vegetarians in India are also a lot fatter than last generation.
My sister attended a global vegetarian conference in India about 15 years ago, and was shocked at how sick most of the attendees looked (she’s a nurse). While there she had a wonderful vegetarian dinner at the home of a very wealthy Indian and went behind the scenes. His kitchen and shopping staff were about 7 in number, to buy food and cook for a household of about 15 everyday, with 5 or 10 guests on a regular basis.
{joesmith, how large is your permanent full-time kitchen staff?}
She has rejected vegetarianism, partly for the unhealthy results she saw among the less-favored many and partly because of the unaffordable expense and complexity of really doing vegetarianism right for the well-favored few.

‘She has rejected vegetarianism’

More lentils for me.

People have lots of servants in poorer nations, because the help is dirt cheap.

She has rejected vegetarianism, partly for the unhealthy results she saw among the less-favored many and partly because of the unaffordable expense and complexity of really doing vegetarianism right for the well-favored few.

I bet Joe only eats the good stuff; quinoa, amaranth, emmer berries, goji berries, acai beries, tempeh and tofu.

Chicken and Potato, that’s for the peons.

Very yuppy behavior IMO.

I could eat some helle berry. Joe can have chuck berry.

‘only eats the good stuff; quinoa, amaranth, emmer berries, goji berries, acai beries’

Quinoa sucks, and I’ve never even heard of these other things before. This reminds me why I try to avoid letting people find out I’m a vegetarian. I found that I was having the same conversation over and over. It goes something like this:

So you don’t eat meat?

That’s right.

You don’t eat beef?

No I’m a vegetarian.

You don’t eat chicken?

No, I don’t eat meat.

You don’t eat fish?

No, I don’t eat fish.

All you eat is vegetables?

I probably don’t eat any more vegetables than you do.

And you don’t eat chicken?

etc…

Goon:

The only reason for the existence and attention of a Mother Teresa was the dying starving children in Calcutta…

Which could have been remedied by eating the meat on animals…..India has more meat on the hoof then America so there is no need for starvation in the streets…

But that is their religious choice…..

etc…
None has asked you, “What do you eat?” That is the only worthwhile question in this whole issue.

“I found that I was having the same conversation over and over.”

I thought the usual question was: ‘Are you a vegetarian for health reasons, moral reasons or both?’

acai beries’

Ben, I guess I need to take you to the Mountain Oasis in Flagstaff when I am in town. I do eat meat but I have replaced most of it with wild Alaskan Salmon. When I do eat red meat, I always make sure I drink red wine with it. However, I think we actually do need meat, I don’t think you can undo hundreds of thousands of year of evolution within a few generations. I know if you work hard you can get most of what you need without it but I REALLY do not work that hard in planning meals. BTW, Costco does have some acai berries covered with dark chocolate, my kind of healthy eating.

You don’t eat fish?

No, I don’t eat fish.

‘Quinoa sucks’

What? I think Ben is wrong, but OK. How about almond milk? Careful.

Quinoa is a pain to cook/drain.

‘Quinoa is a pain to cook/drain.’

No. No.

Cooks fast in same ratio of grain/water like rice does. Cooks a lot faster actually. Similar to cous cous speed. Draining was a hassle at first but then I got a small strainer and voilà, minimal loss of quinoa as I pour off the water and capture any grain escaping.

But, more quinoa for us philes of it.

But I think people have also gotten a lot less tolerant of heat as all their other environments have become air conditioned. I remember 100 degree days in Wyoming as a kid. It just didn’t happen very often. So anyway, I think it’s more about the people changing than the climate changing as far as the “need” for A/C goes in CO.

ABQ Dan, you’re missing the point. As we’ve stated before:

We believe that global warming is REAL.

We believe that global warming is caused by humanoids.

And we believe that global warming has gone beyond the tipping point and is now irreversible.

If you are a parent/breeder of mini-humanoids, you have to believe the LIE and pretend that the future will be better for them. It won’t be. The best thing any humanoid can do for the health of the global ecosystem is to not breed more humanoids.

And as we’ve stated before, we are no Al Gore hypocrite. Carbon credits will not save the humanoid species. It’s gonna get worse, ALOT worse, and we want it to get worse, because that’s the only way the humanoids will learn than infinite growth within a finite ecosystem is not possible.

Enjoy the die-off. And to quote Jim Morrison, “I’m gonna get my kicks before the whole sh*thouse goes up in flames”

The planet will be fine, it’s the people who are fooked

Humanity is a rotten cancer in Earth’s ecosystem. We feel bad about the animals, specifically the high-altitude and high-latitude mammals. They evolved for thousands and thousands of years to adapt to harsh environments, only for the humanoids to come along and f*ck it all up for them.

“Humanity is a rotten cancer in Earth’s ecosystem.:

I agree wholeheartedly. Humans will be extinct before too long, and the earth will go on like we never existed.

‘Humanity is a rotten cancer in Earth’s ecosystem…Humans will be extinct before too long, and the earth will go on like we never existed’

And people call me a doom and gloomer because I think house prices are too high.

You counted beans for a construction outfit. You know what the score is. If it’s a green and short, it’s a martian. So it is.

Or you are a goon.

I heard from the local tackle shop guy with 3 eyes that you can eat as much as you want.

How’s Lake Erie doing? It’s been a while since we fished there. I wouldn’t know. I’ve lived near Lake Erie since about 1976 & my only contact with it was a short time wading near Presque Isle 20 years ago. My earliest years were spent on the NE shores of Lake Michigan, and that spoiled any thoughts I had of fishing or swimming in Lake Erie, which I think is too polluted. Erie does freshen up the air in the summer & brighten up the skies. Summers I often camp along northern Lake Michigan and Lake Superior & while I’m there I make a point of eating alot of whitefish. This summer I hope to buy 25-50 lb. of frozen whitefish & bring it home.

You should ask what price I will stop chasing this up. But in either case the stopping point is ten percent of my net worth.

At $250 an OZ for gold I would imagine we would be living in the world of Mad Max. Radioactive fallout might be a bigger concern LOL.

In Mad Max I would still expect it to be expensive even though you can’t eat it or power your car with it. In the world of 1999 where the future looks really bright is where I’d expect to see $250.

I bought gold when it was below $250. It wasn’t THAT long ago.

In Mad Max I would still expect it to be expensive even though you can’t eat it or power your car with it. In the world of 1999 where the future looks really bright is where I’d expect to see $250.

In Firefly, set in 2517, they still had people exchanging platinum for money. BTW, gold actually is increasing being consumed in electronic items. In the items such as airbags it is too small an amount to be effectively recycled.

Blue Sky, when it was below $250 that was back in the 70s. The lowest its been since 1980 was at $252 per ounce (USD) on July 20, 1999. Google is wonderful, ain’t it?

In 1999 the future certainly did look bright. “This time it’s different” was the reason stocks were the only investment ever to have and not gold. Terrorism seemed very distant and unlikely to happen to the big extent that it did two years later.

Ask yourself, why, given the mad inflationary actions of central banks globally, would gold and silver be selling off right now? It isn’t because of “deflationary pressures” or “technical indicators”.

They can crush it for awhile but over the long run ?

How about synthetic gold or a cheap way to filter gold from seawater with nano technology?

Both synthetic gold and sea water gold is far more expensive then the natural stuff.

“wilderness reserves and interconnecting corridors”

This is exactly what Texas is trying to do to save the Bobwhite & Quail bird population. In the last 30 years the native population has dropped by 90% due to over hunting, land use changes and industrial agriculture.

Iy all sounds good. Look up ICLEI

They just don’t know how good they have it.

Because i-pads are cheaper now.

“Tell that to the shrinking middle class.”

The middle class ain’t done shrinking.

“Current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class – involving high meat intake, use of fossil fuels, appliances, home and work air conditioning, and suburban housing are not sustainable.”

Maurice Strong, Secretary General of the UN’s Earth Summit, 1992.

Can you be vegetarian and middle class, jethro?

Middle class students are about to get a shock. After borrowing at teaser rates they will pay back their loans after interest rates shoot back up: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-15/how-obama-wants-to-change-student-loan-interest-rates?campaign_id=yhoo

{Insert any statement here}
You’re lying.

Hahahahaha! Pimp, you are almost as funny as The Book of Mormon, which I had the pleasure of seeing on Saturday.

Hey DramaQueen,

Are you the leader of the HBB sewing club too?

Oxide is a chemist. I’m sure she is capable of doing the math to correctly figure her $ per square foot.

Apparently she can’t. (And neither can you)

Weak….very week.

Why do you think that? I just jabbed myself. All but a tiny bit of my work is built on legal issues related to private contractors working for either DoD, DHS, or CMS (Medicare).

The difference is, I don’t pretend I can “ignore” the “thugernment” while I draw a pay check because of the system.

Why do you think I am ignoring thugernment now? I am not. I am wanting to get to the point to ignore. Why must there be NO Libertarians working in the DOD or DHS? Is there a directive? It’s like saying no men can be teachers.

Sigh. I posted this piece here before but the retarded types here on HBB just ignore it and repeat the same babble at me:

“Living in a State Run World.”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard63.html

Alpha can just go piss up a rope. I don’t give a rat’s a$$ what that retard says anyway.

Murray Rothbard taught at SUNY. He was the big anarchist scholar of the libertarian movement and yet he worked in a public university. When asked if he would go on strike he said he wouldnt.

Yessir, the government can’t deviate from their contracts vis a vis private, invisible hand of the free market, job creator contractors. It would end up in court and they would lose. The hoops the government must jump through to attempt to change a contract or claw back money are incalculable. Even where there is fraud, they don’t get around to going after it until years later in most cases. During this time, all the records are lost, all the personnel moves on, there’s a new special agent on the case, a new head of the agency, a new Contracting Officer, etc. And then the contractor hires a law firm which marks 90% of the interesting documents as privileged (not subject to production to the gov’t). Months later, fruitless depositions followed by a settlement.

In the meantime, the contractor continues working and most likely wins the next contract, given the huge advantages of being an incumbent contractor.

joe smith, we should quit our jobs and start our own contractor.

Buy when there is blood in the streets, is the best advice and the hardest thing to do. I had some downside protection by writing calls on mining stocks when they made the big move last Summer. Of course, you limit the upside potential by doing that, so I did not write them deep into the money which is what I should have done to be fully protected. However, I am not replacing them as they expire so I will be ready for the upside and have made other people absorb most of the pain of the downside move.

As I noted/linked a year or two ago, a lot of the copper being imported into China wasn’t for production……it was sitting in bonded warehouses as mark-to-fantasy collateral for specu-vestor loans from Chinese banks.

Absolutely nowhere can you safely save or invest anymore. Unless you deposit it in the Bank of Serta/Sealy/Tempur-pedic.

Bill, Forbes has a story about how there is month long wait for physical silver and gold demand soared less week. Even Forbes cannot ignore the divergence between physical gold and paper gold. It is interesting the PTB made have misjudged this one. Apparently, there are very few “girls” to see the physical.

I believe it Dan. Also the biggest bubble is in the USD.

IMO, gold will move to a price and stay there only if the so-called “progressives” announce they were completely wrong and we become a minarchist (or less) society. In reality, there are a lot of big events coming up favoring gold:

1) The threat of confiscating part of everyone’s 401ks or IRAs. 2) The inevitable breaking of promises and expectations of social security and medicare.
3) The inevitable higher taxes to pay for the nanny state, social security, medicare, and interest on the debt.
4) Euro-crash
5) Potential war with North Korea or Iran.

A 10% allocation in gold is not an investment. It’s insurance. A 20% allocation in gold is insurance plus investment.

Amid gold ‘slaughter,’ the $1,300 and even $1,200 marks are lines in the sand
April 15, 2013, 10:46 AM

Everyone but the guy with that 3-kilogram gold shirt was selling the precious metal on Monday, it seemed. (And he probably didn’t get a bargain.)

Some analysts were simply lost for words as gold (GCK3 -8.27%) suffered another onslaught of selling, sliding more than $100 an ounce and falling below $1,400 in U.S. trading, overtaking the 4.1% loss seen Friday.

“It’s a slaughter,” said Carsten Fritsch, senior commodity analyst at Commerzbank AG. “It all comes via the futures market. On Friday, more than 1,100 tons of paper gold had been traded. That is more than annual gold demand from China or India. I can’t see a fundamental reason for this, to be honest.”
…

Isn’t this evidence on it’s face that gold is a speculator’s game, and not some “store of purchasing power”?

If so, why play the game?

If so, why play the game?

US Economy = Gambling
Some gamble with shiny metals, others gamble with houses or lands, you name it.

I only keep enough gold to bribe the officials.

I only keep enough gold to bribe the officials.

You don’t need gold for that. Some silver should suffice.

I have this theory that it’s cheaper and better for the J6P to bribe or to duel because the laws/lawyers/courts/judges are so stacked against him.

Bring back the duel!

“Some silver should suffice.”

30 pieces ought to do it.

When the item/enterprise in question has utility (ie. an ability to generate some recurring income), the gamble is less than with a shiny metal with limited to no utility.

has utility (ie. an ability to generate some recurring income)

May be if you have a way to protect it. Othewise your utility is a sitting duck for central planners.

Who started the war?

Who escalated it because it was a “good” war?

Who started the war?

The Authorization for Use of Military Force[1] (AUMF) is a joint resolution passed by the United States Congress on September 14, 2001, authorizing the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the attacks on September 11, 2001.

House of Representatives

On September 14, 2001 bill House Joint Resolution 64 passed in the House. The totals in the House of Representatives were: 420 Ayes, 1 Nay and 10 Not Voting. The Nay was Barbara Lee, D-CA. [2] Lee is notable as the only member of either house of Congress to vote against this bill.[3]
Senate

On September 14, 2001 Senate Joint Resolution 23 passed in the Senate by roll call vote. The totals in the Senate were: 98 Ayes, 0 Nays, 2 Present/Not Voting (Senators Larry Craig - R and Jesse Helms - R).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists

I like wars that have no end date.

It smells like VICTORY every morning.

…and who is ending them both?

I love revisionists. They still don’t understand what the Internet is good for and how they are about to become extinct, but not before becoming jokes with less credibility than tin foil hat wearers.

So… carry on denizens of De Nile. Carry on. Wear your digital tramp stamp proudly.

…and who is ending them both?

Ending them? OMG, your delusion needs a serious medical attention. Not the one you get in USA….you have to go to Cuba for what ails you.

…and who is ending them both?

Let’s see. obama pulled out of Iraq exactly on in the timetable signed to by President Bush.

obama did have a huge troop surge in Afghanistan (with dubious results). That he did all by himself. And there have been more American casualties in Afghanistan under obama than Bush. And a hell of a lot more children killed in drone strikes.

Keep drinking that kool-aid!

———————-

The U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: “Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq”) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement

Show us the quote.

You’re a lying apologist.

Show. Us. The. Quote.

Mr. Liar.

Everyone saw it yesterday. They can read it again. It seems only you have difficulty with it.

Why is that Liar?

Show. Us. The Quote.

Or we’ll have the umpteenth example of you lying to us.

Liar,

You know exactly where your lie is. Your ruse is loathsome.

And that’s the pathology. The stinking thinking?

You’re a loathsome liar Alpo-Apologist.

Show us the quote.

A quick page search show no such quote by anyone in Bit Buckets yesterday.

Oh my. Pimp is busted.

The context:

Comment by alpha-sloth
2013-04-14 19:13:04

Sounds like an argument if favor of borrowing.

Context is everything.

So misquoted AND out of context.

They’re your words LoathsomeLiar.

“Context is everything”

Sort of like this screaming headline that Drudge has been featuring for the last two days:

“AMERICA: Californians Move to Ban, Seize Guns…”

Which turns out to be a rehash of the old “di-hydrogen oxide” prank which shows how some people will sign anything when confronted by an interviewer with a camera.

That’s di-hydrogen monoxide.

And the rant against it is one of my all time favorites. “A major component of acid rain”

D’oh! Thanks for the catch, Happy. When Pimp’s on a rant, I get oxy on my mind….

“Darryl in Phoenix’s”

Is there such a think as a vacant handle?

I AM Iwog..

And any HOA fees!

Yuppies are like zombies. Waste of bullets IMO.

What better target than a pack of yuppie runners on Patriots Day? Is this what you had in mind, NE? Really?

It was someone’s go time, that is for sure…
FWIW, I heard that Wolf Blitzer is already speculating that this was home-grown terrorism perpetrated by the Tea Party. It is “Patriot’s Day” in MA and it is April 15, tax day. The explosions happened in Backbay and Copley Sq., havens of big money in Boston. Personally, this speaks of false flag attack to me. Given congress is debating anti gun legislation, this would serve as quite the distraction, but again, that’s just my tin-foil hattery.

Apparently a Saudi national is in custody as suspect. Curious that so many people’s minds would go to home-grown terrorism, neh?

Why curious?

Especially when most of the terrorism in this country has been home grown.

“this speaks of false flag attack to me.”

They are saking for anyone with information to call instead of a gag order so I think somebody was really pissed this time.

If a Saudi national is in custody as suspect it wasn’t terrorism, it was workplace violence.

How many more lives would we save if we outlawed tobacco? About 450,000 a year in the US, 5 million a year in the world.

Puts the losses in Iraq and Afghanistan in the shade.

‘About 450,000 a year in the US, 5 million a year in the world. Puts the losses in Iraq and Afghanistan in the shade’

Yeah, and to think 3,000 people were killed in the World Trade Centers. Then 500,000 to 1 million die in Iraq. People that didn’t have anything to do with 9/11. One might be tempted to reconsider knee jerk reactions to violence or deaths.

I certainly never favored going into Iraq. Especially with the Bozos running things, and after they’d botched getting Bin Laden in Afghanistan, when we had the chance at Tora Bora.

“How many more lives would we save if we outlawed tobacco?”

Tobacco is a choice, getting killed by a drunk is not.

‘How many more lives would we save if we outlawed tobacco’

Answer; zero. They are going to die someday. Now you could say, they might live longer. But couldn’t you say the same thing if we outlawed salt? Hands up all those who want to live without salt on their food?

They are going to die someday

Same with those who die in a war.

And about 10% of tobacco deaths are from second-hand smoke. That’s half a million a year, worldwide.

“And about 10% of tobacco deaths are from second-hand smoke. That’s half a million a year, worldwide.”

Well then, it’s a damn good thing there is a big drive to legalize pot.

Question: Does Smoking Marijuana Cause Lung Cancer?

Answer:

The link between smoking tobacco and lung cancer is undeniable, but does smoking marijuana cause lung cancer, too? The short answer — probably.

http://lungcancer.about.com/od/causesoflungcance1/f/marijuana.htm - 28k

In fact I bet a lot of these cigarette smokers smoke pot too and they are bumping up the second hand smoke deaths one bong hit at a time.

This.

Here’s the thing: the government can come into your house in the middle of the night with full auto M4’s locked, loaded and aimed at you and your children because someone at DHS had the flimsiest of excuses to present to a judge to sign off on a No Knock warrant and everyone is cool with it.

Meanwhile, little ‘ole me, a Tea Party libertarian who supports less government intrusion in our lives and the right to keep and bear arms is the bad guy because “We need to keep firearms off the streets”. My firearms aren’t on the streets, they’re in my home or on my person (as a lawful CCL holder).

Honestly, if you’re center mass in the reticle of my Eotech, then the US government has gone full retard and we’re in the middle of a full-bore insurrection. Oh, and you’re on the wrong side of liberty and most likely threatening my family and friends with a scary evil black rifles of your own.

“scary evil black rifles of your own.”

Apparently, when YOU hold an AR-15, it’s an “assault rifle.” But magically, if you hand that same rifle to an armed government homeland security enforcer, it instantly transforms itself into a “personal defense weapon.”

DHS buys 7000 full-auto assault rifles, calls them ‘personal defense weapons’

Monday, January 28, 2013
by Mike Adams

In the hands of the government, they’re called “Personal Defense Weapons”

The juiciest part of this bid is the use of the phrase “Personal Defense Weapons” to describe the full-auto AR-15s being purchased by DHS.

The request for bid actually says:

DHS and its components have a requirement for a 5.56×45mm NATO, select-fire firearm suitable for personal defense use in close quarters and / or when maximum concealment is required.

So there it is, right in black and white: DHS enforcers need full-auto AR-15s which are “suitable for personal defense in close quarters” and for “maximum concealment.”

But if you or I make the same claim, suddenly we are branded lunatics by the fringe left and all the gun grabbers across America who apparently have no clue that their own government is arming up like never before.

Senator Feinstein, the gun-grabbing Senator from California, says she wants to take all the guns from all Americans. “Mr. and Mrs. America, turn ‘em all in,” she says on the record. But while Mr. and Mrs. America are turning in their guns, ‘roid-head DHS goons are arming to the teeth with full-auto assault rifles.

This is all on top of the 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition the U.S. government has already stockpiled, as was discovered last year. What kind of government wants to domestically stockpile ammo and full-auto weapons, putting them in the hands of domestic agents who have nothing whatsoever to do with overseas wars? Well, the kind of government that plans to NEED 1.6 billion rounds of ammo and full-auto assault weapons, of course.

Read some language from the contract bid: Pistol grips, full-auto and more

http://www.naturalnews.com/038844_DHS_assault_weapons_documents.html - 93k -

And what was the price?

Precisely.

???

We DO have a Nobel Peace Prize President.

Plus ALL the news outlets and posters here told me the world would luv America again (and blow kisses) if we would only elected obama…