The Housing Bubble

“Market follows path of least resistance.”

Even when artificially propped up?

The “rich” will eventually run out of money. Of course tax cuts go to the rich. Who do you think pays taxes?

The top 1% (AGI of $350K) pay ~35% of all federal income taxes. The top 10% (AGI of $120K) pay 70%o of all federal income taxes.

Of course tax cuts go to the rich. Who do you think pays taxes rigs the American political system and pushes B.S. TaxCutsForTheRich propaganda?

The top 10% (AGI of $120K) pay 70%o of all federal income taxes.

“we can say that just 10% of the people own the United States of America……”

As of 2010, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 35.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 53.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 89%, leaving only 11% of the wealth for the bottom 80% …Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2012).

…. it’s important to note that for the rich, most of that income does not come from “working”: in 2008, only 19% of the income reported by the 13,480 individuals or families making over $10 million came from wages and salaries.

…..In terms of types of financial wealth, the top one percent of households have 35% of all privately held stock, 64.4% of financial securities, and 62.4% of business equity. The top ten percent have 81% to 94% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity, and almost 80% of non-home real estate. Since financial wealth is what counts as far as the control of income-producing assets, we can say that just 10% of the people own the United States of America; see Table 3 and Figure 2 for the details. UCSC “Who owns America”

So, in short, they own 95% of the country, but only pay 70% of the taxes. And 0% of the lives needed to defend it.

Sounds like “welfare/socialism” for the rich to me.

Still blaming Bush? Lame.

Socialists always get income and wealth confused. We pay income taxes in this country, not wealth taxes. Therefore whining that evil rich people own more than 40% of the wealth is irrelevant. Evil rich people earn less than 40% of the ****INCOME**** yet they pay 40% of the ****INCOME**** taxes.

It’s not that hard.

AMERICA TODAY: 3 Million Overlords And 300 Million Serfs
Henry Blodget Apr. 10, 2013, 3:39 PM
Serfs — Monty Python And The Holy Grail

One of the most disturbing trends in this country is the rise of extreme wealth and income inequality.

As the following charts show, America is rapidly becoming a country of a few million overlords and three hundred million serfs.

Unfortunately, this issue has been politicized, which means that people don’t think about the implications of it — they just start yelling.

But extreme inequality is bad for everyone, even the overlords.

Why?

Because when inequality gets bad enough, serfs don’t have much money to buy products from overlords. This hurts the overlords’ ability to get even richer.
…

Oligarchs are the same, no matter what their country of origin.

The 1% class in the US/UK/wherever have more in common with the 1% class in China than they do their own countrymen.

I think snatching happens very close to the top. Snapping happens somewhere in the middle.

He once asked me if I was trying to dominate the blog. I think he tipped his own hand.

You have to admit that he is persistent.

He is concisely truthful, that is the most irritating part.

I pull in resolution, and begin
To doubt the equivocation of the fiend
That lies like truth.

– Shakespeare’s Macbeth

He is concisely truthful, that is the most irritating part.

Tell that to the people who bought my parents’ Fountain Valley House for 20K. It’s current Zestimate is 600K.

Those folks rode the great credit expansion. I’m thinking that is not what we are in any longer. Do you think your parent’s house will be worth 300 times as much as it is now a decade or two from now? Maybe you’ll be making $15 million a year and can buy it back.

The thing won’t be worth 300 times as much in however many decades it took for it to happen the first time, but who cares? HA says “always.” Always means he denies that it happened even once. He is wrong. Just one counterexample is enough to prove it.

HA says “always.”…….He is wrong. Just one counterexample is enough to prove it.

That’s too complicated, because it involves the definitions of words and math stuff.

Hello Rio.

We were worried that you might be dead or something.

Hello Rio.

We were worried that you might be dead….

Thanks for your concern! I’m fine and visiting friends and family in the USA (without my laptop) and having a blast.

In terms of price, maybe wrong 1 day out of 1,000, but decay is also a valid use of the term depreciation. Houses always decay and always require maintenance and are in that sense a relentless expense 1,000 days out of 1,000.

The counterpoint, that houses always go up, is a lie 999 days out of 1,000.

but decay is also a valid use of the term depreciation.

Really? Could you provide a link to such a definition?

I imagine you’depreciate that.

Depreciation is the process of loss of value over time due to age and wear. I find it rather self evident that things like houses decay, housing bubble or not. The fact that prices of used houses went up during the bubble despite this wear and tear of age was due to a larger process moving in the opposite direction. Just because the sum of the forces are positive, doesn’t disprove the existance of the underlying negative force. That’s my take, I’m sure it is not the only possible one.

I find it rather self evident

Couldn’t find a definition that fit, eh?

Tell that to the people who bought my parents’ Fountain Valley House for 20K. It’s current Zestimate is 600K.

Don’t be dishonest. What are their losses just to depreciation alone so far? 300k? 400k?

Houses depreciate, ALWAYS

ALWAYS

I’ve repeatedly used these exponential decay models of depreciation in various HBB posts over the years.

Exponential Decay

Exponential decay models apply to any situation where the decay (decrease) is proportional to the current size of the quantity of interest. Such situations are encountered in biology, business, chemistry and the social sciences.

Exponential decay models are also used very commonly, especially for radioactive decay, drug concentration in the bloodstream, of depreciation of value.
…
Depreciation

If the value of some article (for example, a car), originally $C, depreciates x% per year, then the value after t years is given by the formula:

y = C(1 – x/100)^t

Example:

The original value of a car is $28,000. If it depreciates by 15% each year, find its value in 4 years.

Substitute.

y = 28000(1 – 0.15)^4

y = 28000(0.85)^4

y = 28000(0.52200625)

y = 14616.175

So after four years, the car is worth about $14,616.

Have you ever experienced depreciation when it was tax deductible? I have.

Jealous?

“Have you ever experienced depreciation when it was tax deductible?”

You mean like the violin I bought a couple of years ago for $8.5K and depreciated as a business expense?

“What they do will come down to what internal polling suggests will yield the best electoral outcome for Democrats.”

At the end of the day, that’s what justice in America is about: Winning more votes for Democrats.

I don’t think he’s being literal, polly. It would be like the OJ case, where OJ was acquitted on criminal charges, but they still brought civil charges and convicted him on those. That’s not double jeopardy, but the term has been sarcastically used to describe actions that Holder may decide to take in this case.

This is about what I thought it meant, before looking it up. I guess it will be up to the DOJ to decide whether the Zimmerman case rises to the level of the “rare instances” standard which was previously applied to the 1960s era murder of civil rights activists:

Legal Dictionary | law.com
double jeopardy

n. placing someone on trial a second time for an offense for which he/she has been previously acquitted, even when new incriminating evidence has been unearthed. This is specifically prohibited by the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which states: “…nor shall any person be subject for the same offence [sic] to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb…” However, in rare instances a person may be tried for a different crime based on some of the same facts which were used to try him/her when he/she was acquitted. A prime example is the use of the Federal Civil Rights Act to charge a person with violation of another’s civil rights by killing him, after a state murder case had resulted in an acquittal, as happened in the 1994 trials for the deaths of civil rights activists and freedom riders Andrew Goldman, Michael Schwerner, James Chaney and Viola Liuzzo, that occurred thirty years earlier.

Dual sovereignty doctrine
wikipedia

The “separate sovereigns” exception to double jeopardy arises from the dual nature of the American Federal-State system, one in which states are sovereigns with plenary power that have relinquished a number of enumerated powers to the Federal government. Double jeopardy attaches only to prosecutions for the same criminal act by the same sovereign, but as separate sovereigns, both the federal and state governments can bring separate prosecutions for the same act.

As an example, a state might try a defendant for murder, after which the Federal government might try the same defendant for a Federal crime (perhaps a civil rights violation or a kidnapping) connected to the same act. For example, the officers of the Los Angeles Police Department who were charged with assaulting Rodney King in 1991 were acquitted by a jury of the Superior Court, but some were later convicted and sentenced in Federal court for violating King’s civil rights. Similar legal processes were used for prosecuting racially motivated crimes in the Southern United States in the 1960s during the time of the Civil Rights movement, when those crimes had not been actively prosecuted, or had resulted in acquittals by juries that were thought to be racist or overly sympathetic with the accused in local courts.

Hopefully a highly-politicized and sensationalized interpersonal conflict between Zimmerman and Martin doesn’t rise to the level of public servant (LAPD) brutality in the Rodney King incident or of cold-blooded murder of civil rights activists in the 1960s South.

The term “social justice” has robbed plain old “justice” of its meaning.

Justice is the reason the process exists. The process exists to obtain justice. But the process is not justice.

Some confuse the process with justice. If a miscarriage of justice occurs, the process was completed, but justice was not achieved.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree, at least in part.

To me, this is just another example of someone (Zimmerman) getting to throw the “Victim” card, because he did something stupid.

Nobody will know what really happened, because it took the two weeks (and media pressure) for them to investigate it.

A lot of police departments conduct independent investigations of any and all shootings when a death is involved (whether by cops or citizens).

Of course, we have a lot of half-azzed PDs in this country.

Not disputing he handled it (very) badly, gulfie. But when a punk is in the process of beating you up and goes for your firearm, etiquette is not the first thing that enters your mind.

Mr. Zimmerman was doing what Neighborhood Watch members do, but he should have identified himself as such from the get go — and apparently he didn’t.

A guy patrolling the neighborhood by himself, at night, in plain clothes, with no flashlight, and a gun in his pocket is a vigilante, not a neighborhood watch.

The FBI investigated this and the report said there was no racial motivation for the shooting. It’s going to be fun watching Holder charge him with civil rights violations that contradicts his own FBI.

The former Sanford police chief said there was not enough evidence to charge GZ. But there was pressure from the usual race hustlers that charges were eventually filed.

The initial prosecutor didn’t file charges since he knew it would be impossible to convict. They had to bring in a second prosecutor who took orders like a good little poodle from Holder/Sharpton/Jesse and brought charges.

For the record, alpha, he wasn’t on patrol, he was on his way home from Target when he saw suspicious activity in his neighborhood and called 911. And he was carrying a flashlight at the time. Off-duty cops don’t wear uniforms either, but they sure investigate suspicious activity when they encounter it. Neighborhood Watch volunteers are on duty when they’re not on patrol too.

Who attacked who first? Who initiated violence? Who had a propensity for violence given previous fights he had been in?

Treyvon was a punk who attacked the wrong guy and got exactly what he deserved. Justice was delivered.

The only thing I would have done differently is I would have emptied the entire magazine into that dumb punk. If I’m going to have my life ruined by the media and AG and be on the hook for 400,000 in attorney’s fees just for defending my life, I’m making damn sure your dumb punk ass is dead.

Treyvon was a punk who attacked the wrong guy and got exactly what he deserved. Justice was delivered.

The only thing I would have done differently is I would have emptied the entire magazine into that dumb punk.

Whoomp, there it is. Thanks for standing up for the Constitution.

just for defending my life,

Treyvon jumped into his SUV?

I didn’t know that the news media chopped up Zimmerman’s call to 911–I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

Apparently what NBC aired:

“Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”

The whole transcript from the 911 call:

“Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.”

In any event, Zimmerman is now suing NBC for defamation (making him look like he was racially profiling).

“But Mom… it all started when he hit me back.”

“But Mom… it all started when he hit me back.”

Yeah, kinda-sorta, except my initial assault was verbal rather than physical, but it provoked the physical blow-back. This way I could put on an “innocent” victim act. Like I said, I’m not proud of this and I didn’t realize what I was doing until my later adult years. Took me that long.

Z’s crime was provocation, for whatever reason. And I doubt he would have engaged in the provocation had he not been carrying. But that’s about the gist of it.

I have three daughters……..the “sugar and spice” BS is exactly that……BS.

The middle daughter would try to ignore the pestering of the youngest, but one the throw down started, the major league, unlimited-war azz-kicking would commence.

Of course, she would come crying to me, complaining about getting her azz kicked “for no reason”.

Kids for the most part don’t actually lie, but have a bad habit of leaving out pertinent/inconvenient facts. After I became a supervisor, I found that some adults have the same problem.

“After I became a supervisor, I found that some adults have the same problem.”

Heh. Many adults have the same problem. And it usually stems from some lesson learned in childhood, for better or for worse.

x-gs, I get the sense you’ve been a good father. I don’t know if your children have ever tried to cast doubt on that, I hope they haven’t.

Sometimes kids do this to their parents. And it’s actually a really crappy thing to do. When I wuz a pup, well underage, I wanted to go to some rock concert with a buddy, who my parents rightly didn’t approve of. I knew there was no way I was going to get permission. So I deliberately provoked a confrontation with my parents. They both came at me. POW! I saw stars. And turned it into an opportunity to accuse them of abuse and leave the house with my buddy, and go to the concert (which sucked and I never enjoyed the experience, served me right).

Unbeknownst to me, my mom carried the guilt of that incident with her for years, thinking she had abused me and should have been more restrained. Decades later, not long before she descended into dementia, she brought up the incident and wanted to apologize. I’ll never forget the look of stunned relief when I confessed how I’d rigged the situation and how it wasn’t her and dad’s fault and I was the one who needed to apologize. The joy and relief she got from that was amazing and it taught me a good lesson.

Like many kids, I blamed my parents for some of my own self-created difficulties.

“Yeah, kinda-sorta, except my initial assault was verbal rather than physical, but it provoked the physical blow-back.”

Don’t feel badly about how you behaved when you were a kid, as I believe it is normal, based on observing the behavior of two of my sons over the years. One of our younger sons has a way of constantly putting himself into a situation where his big (literally 6′2″ 180 lbs) brother has to either ignore provocation or fight back. This has continued for years, and we used to believe big brother generally was usually the instigator. Over time, we have come to realize conflict typically stem from little brother’s aggression.

Luckily as my older son grew several feet taller than he was when this pattern of interaction began, his temper has also become far less mercurial.

For the record, my daughters got a few swats (with my hand) on the backside when they were young. They went a long way.

OTOH, I never told then to “do what I say, and shut up”. If they wanted to argue something, I’d argue with them. Sometimes, they could even make their case, and change my mind about things.

I’m sure that there were a few “authority figures” who don’t think I’ve raised them right. IMO, “respect/deference” is too often demanded, but never earned. If nothing else, I never had to worry about an authority-figure sexually assaulting them, then intimidating them into keeping quiet about it.

Interesting how your modus operandi hasn’t changed all that much in the intervening years, jose.

Interesting how your modus operandi hasn’t changed all that much in the intervening years, jose.

lol. I was thinking the same thing.

hansen, give it a rest, OK? Find someone else to vent your considerable spleen on.

“lol. I was thinking the same thing.”

Of course you were. Two peas in the same festering pod.

I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em, jose. Now go to your room.

Yes, they will all be looking for chances to have their skulls bashed into the concrete so they can then shoot someone.

“…looking for chances to have their skulls bashed into the concrete…”

It seems likely that without this factor, the jury would have found it difficult to interpret Zimmerman’s action as self-defense.

Exactly right. That was the crux of the matter.

As Chris Rock once said, “Sometimes, you deserve to have your ass kicked…..”

If there was ever a place where some people/punks deserved a good-ass kicking, but aren’t getting them, it would be the United States of America, circa 2013.

Instead, the azz-kickees/punks are allowed to carry the guns.

We have tons of George Zimmerman-types around here. If he was so terrified, why didn’t he draw his gun from the get-go, instead of getting into a fist fight he ended up losing?

And why didn’t the Sanford PD treat it like a homicide from the get-go? I know why. Because Zimmerman fit the profile of the middle-class, home owning white guy, and was a cop-worshipper they knew, and the kid fit the profile of trouble making black kid that they didn’t know.

People watch to much TV. Especially “COPS”. They always show the arrests that put the cops in the best light. They never show any video where the cops act like pricks.

For various reasons, mostly related to my speed, or that I was coming home from work at 3am, or both. I’ve had a few experiences with various PDs. Let’s just say that if I was black, I’d probably have spent a few nights in jail by now.

Mainly because I don’t like getting pulled over by cops, because they “suspect” I’m doing something. Or for getting two inches from my face (trying to trigger the “fight-or flight” mechanism, when no “flight” was possible) and threatening to arrest me for obstruction, because I dared ask them when they planned to reopen the bridge I needed to cross to get to work.

“Or for getting two inches from my face (trying to trigger the “fight-or flight” mechanism, when no “flight” was possible) and threatening to arrest me for obstruction”

Phew, I’ve been there. Cops can and will deliberately try to provoke confrontation so they have an excuse to handcuff you and haul you in, even though they’re the ones acting like pricks. I had it nearly happen to me when two cops came by one day looking for the former occupant of an apartment I had rented. I was home recuperating from an illness and they woke me up and wanted to come in and look around. The two of them alerted just like attack dogs, quivering in place and ready to pounce should I resist them in any way. It was something I could actually see and sense, so I backed down and let them in even though I didn’t have to. I was mainly pissed because they’d woken me up most rudely by beating on the door.

But, as I say, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Zimmerman doesn’t look like any white guy I have ever met.

“Because Zimmerman fit the profile of the middle-class, home owning white guy, …”

BUZZ: WRONG!!!!

German name, Peruvian ethnicity.

Trayvon- Zimmerman tragedy shows labels don’t fit when it comes to race, ethnicity
IN THE SHADOW OF RACE: 6th in an occasional series
7:18 p.m. EST, October 13, 2012|

By Arelis R. Hernández, Orlando Sentinel

Whenever JoJo Ramos visits his “meemaw,” he never forgets to ask for “bendición,” a Spanish blessing, in his Appalachian-Florida dialect before crossing into the heart of her home in Belle Glade.

He calls himself a “hillbilly” Puerto Rican in honor of his mixed heritage. His kids, Ramos says proudly, are a “quarter Porto.”

When Vibert White sways his hips to the “tu-cú” rhythm of the conga slap, people ask where he learned to salsa.

Never mind that the dark-skinned Afro-Latino has known the steps since boyhood.

Fair-skinned and blue-eyed, Karen Toledo endured being called a “gringa” by her olive-skinned relatives and mistaken by outsiders for everything but who she says she is: a Puerto Rican woman, a Latina.

Looks are deceiving when it comes to Hispanics and those of multiethnic backgrounds. Their personal histories and multiple heritages confuse and disrupt narratives, challenge and transform identities and inject nuanced perspectives into uniquely American issues.

The shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin last February in Sanford was initially thought to be an American tragedy born of racial injustice. White and black.

But that narrative was contorted when his shooter, George Michael Zimmerman, identified himself as a Hispanic man of Peruvian heritage.
…

“I know why. Because Zimmerman fit the profile of the middle-class, home owning white guy,…”

It would have made it so much easier to get a conviction had this been the case.

I get it. You guys are invested in picking fly-sh#t out of the pepper, in order to justify his actions.

Zimmerman looks like 90% of the 4th-5th generation, native born, Hispanics around here. He looks a helluva lot more like a Caucasian than an Aztec.

But you aren’t disagreeing about any other part of my evaluation. Including the cop-wanna-be persona.

“But you aren’t disagreeing about any other part of my evaluation. Including the cop-wanna-be persona.”

If he were a white homeowner, I doubt he would have identified himself as a ‘Hispanic man of Peruvian heritage’ unless it was true.

@scdave,

I think the fallout from this unfortunate incident will be that a truly ill-conceived gun law gets revisited and modified by federal mandate, thus opening the whole “gun control” can of worms again. Only this time it may have legs.

I only hope that Mr. Zimmerman isn’t drawn in for a second extended round as the (judicial) sacrificial lamb upon the alter of public opinion.

fixer,

The cop called to the scene did want to charge him. It went up a level or two (either a supervisor at the police or possibly whoever was on call at the DAs office) before it was squashed. That all happened almost immediately, but it was reported on early in the process. The cop(s) who wanted to arrest were not allowed to do whatever they would have done to investigate the incident until much later.

But you aren’t disagreeing about any other part of my evaluation. Including the cop-wanna-be persona.

What do you make of Mr. Martin’s gangsta-wanna-be persona? Irrelevant?

What do you make of Mr. Martin’s gangsta-wanna-be persona? Irrelevant?

He’s guilty of being a teenager. I had spiked hair and looked pretty wild at his age, too. I was a suburban punk rocker on his way to college, not a wandering murderer.

I probably had thc in my system at the time, too. And crazy pictures that were thankfully pre-internet.

He’s guilty of being a teenager. I had spiked hair and looked pretty wild at his age, too. I was a suburban punk rocker on his way to college, not a wandering murderer.

I probably had thc in my system at the time, too. And crazy pictures that were thankfully pre-internet.

He’s guilty of being a thug. How many fights did you typically get in? How many times did you ‘ground and pound’ somebody? How many times did somebody ‘ground and pound’ you? How many times did you get in a fight and fear for your life? He had reason to fear grave bodily injury and waiting to see if he wakes up breathing dirt or wakes up a vegetable or permanently disfigured or whatever other negative outcome is a *stupid* gamble in his situation.

I can’t believe the naivete I see in some of the posters here. Put yourself in Mr. Martin’s position. Do you honestly believe the outcome would have been the same?

I might not have gotten into that situation…I don’t know, I’ve never been the neighborhood watch type. But once I was in it I’d have fired, too.

How many times did you ‘ground and pound’ somebody?

How many times did Trayvon?

I might not have gotten into that situation…I don’t know, I’ve never been the neighborhood watch type. But once I was in it I’d have fired, too.

You’re missing my point. I’m asking if you’d get into Mr. Martin’s situation! If you were walking in a neighborhood and somebody from the neighborhood watch accosted you, what are the chances you’d end up pounding this person’s face into the pavement?

” If you were walking in a neighborhood and somebody from the neighborhood watch accosted you, what are the chances you’d end up pounding this person’s face into the pavement?”

Do I know that I’m being accosted by someone with the neighborhood watch or just some random idiot? Not trying to re-argue the case here, I agree with the verdict but if you’re going to ask that question, we need to be clear here.

Do I know that I’m being accosted by someone with the neighborhood watch or just some random idiot?

Exactly. The people saying they think Zim was innocent are the same people who would have shot him if they were Trayvon. But with their own gun.

Do I know that I’m being accosted by someone with the neighborhood watch or just some random idiot?

I imagine Mr. Zimmerman announced he was from the neighborhood watch, but there is no way to know so let’s say it’s a random idiot who wants to know who you are, where you’re going and why you’re in the neighborhood. Gonna end up in the pound and ground? Gonna make derogatory comments and go about your way? Gonna ignore him? I’m willing to believe people get asked or looked at with the “what are you doing here” all over the world again and again. It takes a certain kind of person to end up from there to doing grave bodily harm.

I imagine Mr. Zimmerman announced he was from the neighborhood watch,

Well,that proves it, then.

Trayvon Martin’s Texts Matter, George Zimmerman Defense Attorneys Say
Fighting and drug use could be relevant to the shooting, defense says
By Steven Nelson
May 24, 2013

George Zimmerman arrives in Seminole circuit court with his attorney Mark O’Mara (L) for a pre-trial hearing April 30, 2013 in Sanford, Fla.

Attorneys for George Zimmerman, the man charged with second-degree murder for shooting 17-year-old Trayvon Martin last year, released photos and text messages from the teen’s phone Thursday, which the defense contends are important evidence.

A hearing on whether the texts can be admitted as evidence is scheduled for Tuesday. Prosecutors don’t want jurors to consider the communications, which discuss fighting, marijuana use and an incident that resulted in Martin being kicked out of his mother’s home.

“If they had suggested that Trayvon is nonviolent and that George is the aggressor, I think that makes evidence of the fighting he has been involved with in the past relevant,” Mark O’Mara, an attorney for Zimmerman, told The Associated Press.
…

Perhaps one of the HBB’s resident legal experts could explain why evidence that Mr. Martin had a propensity for fighting was irrelevant to the question of whether Zimmerman acted in self defense.

I’m missing it.

Judge in Trayvon Martin Case Puts Limits on Defense
By LIZETTE ALVAREZ
Published: May 28, 2013

MIAMI — Lawyers for George Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the killing of Trayvon Martin, will be barred from mentioning Mr. Martin’s marijuana use, history of fights or high school suspension during opening statements in Mr. Zimmerman’s trial, which begins June 10.

George Zimmerman was interviewed by the Sanford Police Department in the hours and days after he killed Trayvon Martin.

At a hearing Tuesday in a Seminole County court, Circuit Judge Debra Steinberg Nelson denied a string of defense motions concerning evidence that was intended to portray Mr. Martin as a troubled teenager with a propensity for fighting and an interest in guns. Prosecutors argued that such evidence had nothing to do with Mr. Martin’s death.

Mr. Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old, was killed in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, 2012, by Mr. Zimmerman, who said he shot him in self-defense.

Mark O’Mara, Mr. Zimmerman’s lawyer, argued that Mr. Martin’s drug use could have made him aggressive and paranoid, which the defense said might have prompted him to attack Mr. Zimmerman, 29, a neighborhood watch volunteer.

“All of that fits in squarely to what the defense is going to present: that George Zimmerman was put in the position that he had to act in self-defense,” Mr. O’Mara said. “How could you keep us from arguing that?”
…

If you were walking in a neighborhood and somebody from the neighborhood watch accosted you, what are the chances you’d end up pounding this person’s face into the pavement?

Very close to zero. If I’m in the “nice” neighborhood of a relative, especially my father, and I’m a stranger there, I’m going to humor the local doofus no matter how big of a jerk he’s being, assuming he doesn’t corner me and start beating me with no provocation from me. As soon as I think there’s a problem I’m going to call my dad and just let him know that something weird is going on and he’s going to need to come get me. But I didn’t grow up in the ghetto so I tend to assume that being reasonable will get me what I want even if it’s an inconvenience. I realize others have different experiences.

“In this case, Martin attacked Zimmerman……”

Like you said, sez who?

The Sanford PD effed up. Gave Zimmerman time to get his story squared away.

If some random d##kweed starts following me around for no reason, you can bet there is going to be a confrontation. I guess this gives the concealed carry crowd an excuse to shoot me.

“If some random d##kweed starts following me around for no reason, you can bet there is going to be a confrontation.”

Then you would be in the wrong. You just can’t legally decide to give any person a beat down unless you are defending yourself. Only bullies and hot heads act in such a manor, the true martial way is to be peaceable and only respond when attacked.

Confrontation does not necessarily mean fighting. I’ve never started a fight in my life, and haven’t been in one since high school. (of course, this may have to do with the fact that I was 6′ 5″, 220 as a high school senior).

As for calling the cops? Don’t make me laugh.

I was stalked once, by a crazy-azz former contractor that we had to terminate for cause, and she thought it was my doing. Tried to run me off the road, among other things.

Too bad I didn’t recognize her until I swerved onto the shoulder……..she was driving a 15 year old POS Toyota. I was driving a new, airbag equipped F-150. I’d have let her hit me, if I’d known it was her.

Cops were called several times (I wasn’t the only one being stalked). All they did was take reports.

Of course, most of this happened in the pre-concealed carry days. I’m sure she’d be carrying now.

(My favorite part of the stalker story…..stalker took to following out female scheduler home. First time it happens, she called the local cops.

Cop met her, bummed some cigarettes and had the following exchange with her:

Cop: “Do you have a husband/boyfriend”

Pxxx: “No”

Cop: “Then you need to go to (insert name of local cowboy/$hitkicker bar here), and get one…..”

Stalking continued for a week or two. She started getting worried. Me, being Mr Common Sense says “Hey, let’s call the company security guys…….they must know some guys with the local PD/Sheriffs office that they can call; have them do an “off the record” check on her record, and see if she’s just venting, or if there is some reason to be concerned.

So far, so good.

Couple of hours later, the call comes back………the woman is on work release from the mental ward at the local VA Hospital.

“Oh yeah…….we all feel better now.”

To protect yourself in today’s world, where just about everything is against the law and everyone is watching, I would make sure you are not the instigator in any combative situation…that’s all.

What makes sense in rural areas may not apply in urban/suburban environments. Never been in a neighborhood watch, because it’s pointless……all of the neighborhoods I’ve been in are ghost towns between 7am-4pm (when everyone is at work, and when the break ins happen)

What cracks me up are the 3-4000 population towns, white bread, 95% Catholic (or Lutheran, Mennonite, etc) towns out here in BFE with ZERO crime to speak of, but everyone has a CC permit, and post neighborhood watch signs all over the place.

In these towns, if you are anything other than an At church every Sunday, Rush-listening, Fox News watching, never been out of the county, inbred NBK, you are immediately considered a “suspicious person”.

They can run their towns however they want. Including making it uncomfortable for “suspicious” persons. But there is a reason all of the best/brightest move to the big cities.

Absolutely true, gulfie, and within is the lesson. In my experience, “suspicious” outliers (like me) in these communities are willingly accepted if they make the small effort to introduce themselves — and then mind their own business. Color or ethnicity has little-to-nothing to do with it. You may not be invited to dinner, but you’ll certainly be welcomed in the local diner. (In fact our local diner is owned and operated by a flamboyant 6′4″ transexual.)

It can be something as simple as knocking on your neighbor’s door and saying “Hello, I’m new to the community and just wanted to let you know I’m here. Here’s my phone number if you need anything from me.” Or volunteering an afternoon at a community event. Or showing up after a Sunday church service and shaking hands with the minister. Or dropping into the sheriff’s substation and introducing yourself.

Word spreads fast.

PS. Neighborhood Watch volunteers are generally the homebound/retired/marginally-employed folks who are actually THERE between 7 and 4 to…watch.

Well there you go…..didn’t have no homebound/retired/marginally employed types where I lived.

We were all “producers” with day jobs :).

Of course, I have a bias against “neighborhood watch”-types. When I was in high school, our neighbor did a “neighborhood watch” before it became popular.

Since there was no crime, he spent all of his time monitoring the comings and goings of all of us kids, and narced us to our parents.

My brother mooned him one day, on his way out to his car. Of course, to rat him out, he would have had to admit he was spying on us.

“What cracks me up are the 3-4000 population towns, white bread, 95% Catholic (or Lutheran, Mennonite, etc) towns out here in BFE with ZERO crime to speak of, but everyone has a CC permit, and post neighborhood watch signs all over the place.”

I can top that. My SIL is a resident of Spring City, UT:

Small Utah town makes gun in every home a top priority
Published January 09, 2013
Associated Press

Officials in a small Utah town want to make sure every head of household has a firearm and knows how to use it, and they want to give school teachers training with guns too.

Spring City Councilman Neil Sorensen first proposed an ordinance requiring a gun in every household in the town of 1,000. The rest of the council scoffed at making it a requirement, but they unanimously agreed to move forward with an ordinance “recommending” the idea.

The council also approved funding to offer concealed firearms training Friday to the 20 teachers and administrators at the local elementary school.

“It sends a statement that criminals better think twice,” Sorensen told The Associated Press on Tuesday. “If a teacher would have had a concealed weapon in Sandy Hook, I think the death loss would have been fewer. If sane, trained people had guns, they could have shot back.”

The measure, which will go before the full council in February for further review, seems to have the support of the council’s five members and many residents in the farming community about 90 miles south of Salt Lake City.

But school administrators don’t think arming teachers is wise, and they are not encouraging teachers to participate in Friday’s training.

“The more guns you have in the school, the more dangerous it is,” said Leslie Keisel, superintendent of the North Sanpete School District.
…

“In these towns, if you are anything other than an At church every Sunday, Rush-listening, Fox News watching, never been out of the county, inbred NBK, you are immediately considered a “suspicious person”. They can run their towns however they want. Including making it uncomfortable for “suspicious” persons.

From Elton John’s “Texan Love Song”

I heard from a friend you been messing around
With a cute little thing I’d been dating uptown
Well I don’t know if I like that idea much
Well you’d better stay clear I might start acting rough
You out of town guys sure think you’re real keen
Think all of us boys here are homespun and green
But that’s wrong my friend so get this through your head
We’re tough and we’re Texan with necks good and red

So it’s Ki yi yippie yi yi
You long hairs are sure gonna die
Our American home was clean till you came
And kids still respected the president’s name
And the eagle still flew in the sky
Hearts filled with national pride
Then you came along with your drug-crazy songs
Goddamit you’re all gonna die

How dare you sit there and drink all our beer
Oh it’s made for us workers who sweat spit and swear
The minds of our daughters are poisoned by you
With your communistic politics and them negro blues
Well I’m gonna quit talking and take action now
Run all of you fairies clean out of this town
Oh I’m dog tired of watching you mess up our lives
Spending the summertime naturally high

Exactly. He’s not being paid for his DISability, he’s being paid for his ability, sorry if I made a sweeping generalization, I didn’t mean to.

I’m thinking about becoming a white collar criminal.

So shoot me.

Nah, the existing white-collar gang wouldn’t let you in. You don’t have the right aura about you.

The “kid” was, at the time, sitting on top of Zimmerman, punching him in the face and slamming his head against the sidewalk

It amazes me the first-hand knowledge people have of this case.

Quite revelatory!

It amazes me what people will say who apparently have not read a single article about this case.

Revelatory, indeed!

News Analysis
In Zimmerman Case, Self-Defense Was Hard to Topple
George Zimmerman leaving court after his acquittal on Saturday of all charges in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
By LIZETTE ALVAREZ
Published: July 14, 2013

SANFORD, Fla. — From the moment George Zimmerman held up his arms and told the police that he had shot Trayvon Martin, one fact was undisputed: an unarmed black teenager lay dead.

But as one top Florida defense lawyer, Michael Band, said on Sunday, “Trials, for better or worse, are not morality plays.”

From the start, prosecutors faced a difficult case — weak on evidence and long on outrage. Mr. Zimmerman had the power of self-defense laws on his side, and was helped by a spotty police investigation and prosecutorial missteps. The initial investigation foundered when the local prosecutor balked at bringing charges, convinced that overcoming the self-defense claims would prove impossible.

But six weeks after the killing, his replacement, Angela B. Corey, from the Jacksonville area, charged Mr. Zimmerman with second-degree murder, a tall order.

At the trial, the fight between Mr. Martin and Mr. Zimmerman that preceded the shooting produced a muddle of testimony — and grist for reasonable doubt. It remained unclear who had thrown the first punch and at what point Mr. Zimmerman drew his gun. There were no witnesses to the shooting and no definitive determination of which man could be heard yelling for help in the background of a 911 call.

The only version of events came from Mr. Zimmerman, who did not take the stand, denying prosecutors a chance to cross-examine him. His statements to the police spoke for him at the trial. Defense lawyers also had a powerful piece of evidence in photographs of Mr. Zimmerman’s injuries: a bloody nose and cuts and lumps on the back of his head.

Mr. Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, claimed that he shot Mr. Martin only after the teenager knocked him to the ground, punched him, straddled him and slammed his head into the concrete — “a weapon,” as his lawyer, Mark O’Mara, called it. The murder charge required a showing that Mr. Zimmerman was full of ill will, hatred, spite or evil intent when he shot Mr. Martin. But prosecutors had little evidence to back up that claim, legal experts said.
…

Revelatory, indeed!

Here ya go:

“Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360, and Cutcher stated that she believes that “there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling” just prior to the shooting but admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation.[148][149][150] Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a “very young voice” whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground.[148][150] Mary Cutcher phoned police after the fatal shooting and said the black man was standing over another man, although Trayvon Martin was already dead.[35] According to the Orlando Sentinel article, “Police spokesman Sgt. Dave Morgenstern [on March 15] issued a statement disputing Cutcher’s version of events, calling her statements to WFTV “inconsistent with her sworn testimony to police.”[151] However, Cutcher and her roommate maintain that their account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman’s, and they demanded the police issue a retraction.[149]

On March 29, 2012, an eyewitness referred to as a male said that he saw two men on the ground scuffling, then heard the shooting, and saw Zimmerman walk away with no blood on him.[152][153] The witness later appeared on CNN AC360 referred to as a female, giving more details on her account. She pointed out that she heard an argument between a younger and an older voice. During the time that she witnessed the incident, the scuffling happened on the grass. She said that the larger man, who walked away after the gunshot, was on top and that it was too dark to see blood on his face”
wikipedia

I’m still not clear how our resident experts know so much more about what happened than the witnesses.

It remained unclear who had thrown the first punch and at what point Mr. Zimmerman drew his gun. There were no witnesses to the shooting and no definitive determination of which man could be heard yelling for help in the background of a 911 call.

Which was my point. And yet we have experts here who seem to know exactly what happened.

The evidence speaks to his character, not sure if it was admissible, but it should have been disclosed. Paints an entirely different picture than the photo of him at 12 years old.

This x 1000. Maybe if Treyvon’s parents had been better at raising a well adjusted kid instead of a wannabe gangsta, they’d still have their son alive with them.

Mrs. Travon put him up for adoption when he was three years old. She reclaimed him after his death, however, and copyrighted his name….

Maybe the reason the prosecuters had no case is because the cops blew the case from the get-go.

“…because the cops blew the case from the get-go.”

That was my takehome from the OJ Simpson trial.

“This is what they used to do to people back in England. If the authorities had it out for you, they would charge you with endless crimes until you were somehow found guilty of something, anything. If you were never found guilty, then at least your resources would be drained and you would be powerless against the political will of the PTB.”

Luckily our Constitution put an end to this practice.

It’s funny how people decide who’s guilty or innocent based on skin color.

You mean like all the outsiders, not on the jury, who verbally convicted George Zimmerman of racially-motivated murder or manslaughter because the guy who got shot was black and he was not?

George Zimmerman verdict: DOJ to revive probe into
Trayvon Martin civil rights violation as protesters take to streets
The jury may have found George Zimmerman not guilty of murdering Trayvon Martin, but onlookers are not so convinced. The former neighborhood watchman has years of hiding ahead of him as the death threats and potential civil suits pour in.
By Adam Edelman , Lisa Lucas In Sanford, Fla. AND Stephen Rex Brown / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Published: Sunday, July 14, 2013, 10:30 AM
Updated: Monday, July 15, 2013, 12:21 AM

George Zimmerman stands when the jury arrives to deliver the verdict as his attorneys Mark O’Mara (L) and co-counsel, Don West (2nd L) and Lorna Truett (2nd R) await for the verdict announcement for Zimmerman’s murder trial in the 2012 shooting death of Trayvon Martin at the Seminole County Criminal Justice Center in Sanford, Florida, July 13, 2013. Zimmerman was acquitted of all charges on Saturday for the fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in this central Florida town in February of last year.

As protesters took to the streets Sunday to condemn George Zimmerman’s acquittal, the U.S. Department of Justice said it would review the case for possible violations of Trayvon Martin’s civil rights.

Attorney General Eric Holder had begun the investigation last year into whether the deadly confrontation between Zimmerman, 29, and Trayvon, 17, was motivated by racial profiling, but he stepped aside to let the trial in a Florida court proceed.

A six-member jury found Zimmerman not guilty on counts of second-degree murder and lesser charges Saturday, setting off widespread outrage.
…

So in short, aside from the vigilantism theme, the situations bear few similarities.

Yeah, aside from the vigilantism. And one person attacking another. Did the person attacked have a right to be there? Could he have been justifiably in fear for his life when his collarbone was broken? Then he should have shot the attacker- or is it different when your kids are involved?

Like Zimmerman was?

Zimmerman Arrested On Murder Charge In Martin Case; Will Plead Not Guilty
by April 11, 2012 6:06 PM

State Attorney Angela Corey announces that George Zimmerman has been arrested and charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Florida.
…

The shooter would have been arrested.

at the time of the shooting.

Same here in Manhattan.

Where we are at?

-The government/Fed/banks want high housing prices, so the housing they have on their books can be sold off at break even, at minimum.

-While at the same time, the same government is pursuing various policies that are reducing the number of families that can own a home. Tough to have real inflation, without inflation in payscales.

This would make no sense, if we were in a “free market”. But we aren’t. It’s always been about figuring out a way to bail out the banksters. In this particular case, it will be a decades long project.

They make money off the spread between the rate they borrow money at, and what they charge the wretched refuse. They make money off manipulating commodities prices. The just steal it (MF Global). They demand a 8% ROI, or they take their balls and go home.

The poor, w-2/1099 working schlub will pick up the tab, thru higher costs, inflation, reduced retirement income, reductions in benefits they’ve been paying into for a lifetime.

All the politicians want/need from the schlubs is their vote, which they can buy with campaign contributions. So they will continue to promote the interests of the banksters and their friends, as long as they continue to get the campaign contributions to buy J6Ps vote.

The rest of the world recognizes the United States as the banana republic that it has become. Shouldn’t be a surprise that our global leadership is being questioned.

“The government/Fed/banks want high housing prices, so the housing they have on their books can be sold off at break even, at minimum.”

For how many more years will this justification be used to prop up housing prices?

Who know?

Back when I was a free market propaganda believer, I might have said 5-6 years.

But now, with the PTB doing all they can to keep the roosting chickens away? Long enough to make the purchase of a house in what remains of my lifetime a losing proposition.

We were in a depression 10 years before historians/economists say that WWII arms spending ended it.

The 1%ers have too much money invested in China, Russia, etc. for the US to ever get into an actual shooting war with any 1st World country/economy of consequence. You will need several Syrias/Libyas to create the broad based demand that a major war creates, unlike our current situation, where there are as many contractors as boots on the ground. And the “fight them over there before we fight them over here” meme is getting old pretty quick.

We were in a depression 10 years before historians/economists say that WWII arms spending ended it.

No, no, no! The rest of the world was “bombed flat”. That’s the only way Keynes’ theories work!

And now, unless we start launching Conestogas to the Moon or Mars, all of the land in the “New World” is owned by someone.

At least all of the land worth owning.

Such drivel you post. The founding fathers were influenced by John Locke. Every human has the right to life. Property rights are a corollary to the right to life. As is liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Rio if you favor equal outcome, I will be happy if you provide me with a better car.

Rio if you favor equal outcome, I will be happy if you provide me with a better car.

My taxes pay your salary, not vice versa. LOL

Such drivel you post. The founding fathers were influenced by John Locke

No. Prove this wrong:

“Revolutionary leaders censured the political system of aristocracy as an enemy of the republican distribution of wealth. In Europe, through policies such as an onerous tax system that funded a bloated and corrupt government bureaucracy, an established church, government-bestowed special privileges, and paper money, the aristocracy appropriated the fruits of others’ labor. In removing these props of aristocracy, Americans had created a naturally equitable distribution.”

no longer Rio. For one thing, you are not in America. What taxes?

For another, I’m working purely commercial.

You read from a Marxist revisionist. Because you tend to be Marxist (why should I be surprised?)