Nothing Much Except The Price Has Changed
News 1130 reports from Canada. “No one is talking about a market crash anymore as concerns swing back to unaffordability for much of the Lower Mainland. Comparing major cities across the country, the latest RBC Housing Trends and Affordability Report finds it now takes more than 84.2 per cent of pre-tax household income to service the cost of owning a bungalow in Vancouver, a jump of 2.0 percentage points from the previous quarter of this year. Toronto is a distant second at 55.6 per cent. Montreal is third at just 38.3 per cent. RBC Economics calls affordability in Vancouver ‘uncomfortably strained.’”
From Global News. “Vancouver-based website Pricey Pads found a 76-year-old home in Point Grey on 1.197 acres, listed for $22.8 million. The home does have a fantastic view, but it’s not waterfront. However, the home is currently boarded-up and the value is primarily in the land. The creator of Pricey Pads, Mitchell Owsanski, wanted to see how many authentic chateâus in France you could buy for the same price as the Point Grey home. The answer? Nine.”
“Owsanski says many of the chateaus are on large plots of land. ‘They are in the countryside but regardless, some of them are on 400 acres,’ he said.”
“It would cost $22,606,270 to buy all nine French chateâus, $193,730 less than the single Vancouver tear down — enough savings to pay for hundreds of flights between Vancouver and Paris. The Point Grey property is also still on the market.”
The Financial Post. “At the age of 38, Lisa, as we’ll call her, finds herself in the vise of wage compression and rising living costs. Her salary has declined in the last year and mortgage payments, fees and taxes for her downtown Vancouver condo now cost her $2,149 a month, which works out to more than half of her $3,758 monthly take home income.”
“‘Buying my condo was a big risk,’ Lisa explains. ‘I want to work toward paying it off. Is it possible for me to retire at 65 or maybe a little later after I have paid off the condo?’”
“Family Finance asked Graeme Egan, a financial planner and portfolio manager with KCM Wealth Management Inc. in Vancouver, to work with Lisa. He sees the condo, which has an estimated market value of $335,000, as a foot in the door of the Vancouver housing market. Lisa could sell the condo, pay off her loans, and walk away. She would be free to rent equivalent space and save perhaps $500 a month. She would be mobile, could easily take jobs in other cities and would be free of debt. However, she would have given up a good asset in valuable real estate.”
“Frugalness has given Lisa an opportunity to have what will be an unencumbered asset, her condo, after it is paid off by age 49 or 50. If the condo, with a present market price of $335,000, appreciates at just 2% a year over inflation, it will have a theoretical market price of $595,000 in 2013 dollars at her age 67. Every year she pays down the mortgage, her equity will grow.”
The Globe & Mail. “There are signs that rents in Toronto’s condo market are on the verge of decreasing, at a time when new landlords are already dealing with low returns, a report by Veritas Investment Research analyst Ohad Lederer says. This comes at a time when someone buying a condo in Toronto as an investment stands a one-in-two chance of enduring negative cash flows each month of more than $200, according to the report. Shaun Hildebrand, senior VP at condo research firm Urbanation, expects upwards of 20,000 new condo units to come on stream annually over the next three years.”
“The report illustrates the potential implications of these factors in one worrisome chain of events: ‘In one possible scenario, the Toronto rental market may no longer absorb supply as it comes on-stream, resulting in lower rents and increasing cash outflows for landlords, who then decide to sell, at first in a trickle and then in a thunderous herd. In this scenario, condo prices could drop dramatically, given relatively small unit sizes that do not attract a wide segment of potential buyers and the already weak underlying fundamentals.’”
“Toronto condo developer Barry Fenton, CEO of Lanterra Developments, says the industry remains confident in the condo rental market. For one thing, he noted that he and many other developers are now offering investors rental guarantees when they buy units in buildings that haven’t been built. At the Britt condos, Lanterra sold 100 units to investors with a guarantee that they’d obtain more than $3 per square foot in rent for two years, or Lanterra will pay it, Fenton said. ‘We’re not here to lose money,’ he said.”
“Construction now represents 7.1 per cent of Canadian economic output, a sharp increase from the 5.2 per cent in 2000, Fitch Ratings said in a report to be released Tuesday. The high level of employment and individual wealth tied to housing means that a ‘housing downturn could have serious consequences for the overall economy,’ the ratings agency said.”
“Separately, the country’s mortgage brokers are warning that the market is on the verge of a drop in housing starts. ‘If what’s happening in Toronto is at all representative of the rest of the country, there is a big correction coming in construction starting about now and proceeding through the coming year,’ said Will Dunning, chief economist of the Canadian Association of Accredited Mortgage Professionals. ‘If we see a reduction of 30- or 40- or 50,000 housing starts, we’re talking close to 100,000 jobs directly being impacted, and then ancillary jobs as well.’”
“Fitch noted that ‘across the country, but particularly in Vancouver and Toronto, high, or even record numbers of units, are currently under construction’ and said that construction activity is often a response to higher real estate prices than to a population boom.”
From Reuters. “Housing markets are booming again in parts of the U.S. and Britain and they haven’t stopped doing so in Canada for the better part of a generation. What is most striking about the latest round, at least when you listen to those who ought to know, is how nothing much except the price has changed.”
“Scanning through the results of the latest Reuters surveys of property market analysts and economists would leave any reader with a memory stretching back before 2008 with a sense of déjà vu. After all, interest rates are even lower, stock markets are soaring to record highs, and a rapid expansion in household debt in all three countries is driving the property market higher, leading what one economist in Britain, lamenting poor trade performance, has called the ‘estate agent-led’ recovery.”
“Asked if prime London property is an example of an asset price bubble, Stephen Lewis of Monument Securities says: ‘A ‘bubble’ would imply that prices might fall suddenly and steeply, but there seem to be enough international cash purchasers to prevent that happening.’”
“Despite the fact that it has had no correction even while the U.S. market has fallen by more than a third and started to recover, the Canadian market is taking off again. And analysts do not sound worried. Property analyst Will Dunning says: ‘The government continues to mis-characterize the housing market as overheated, when it is barely in balance. If you look at the price indexes… they’re all showing price increases somewhere in the range of 3 percent. A 3 percent price increase is pretty moderate. It’s reasonable. There have been a few places in the country that have been hot lately, particularly Toronto and Vancouver. I think that’s a very short-term response to interest rate changes.’”
“Even those who think there could be a correction cling to wild beliefs, not expressed very clearly, of why this time it would be different. Dana Peterson at Citi says: ‘Prices and activity could fall dramatically, but it would not be a U.S.-style, global credit market event since much of the impact could be absorbed by domestic factors.’”
‘the latest RBC Housing Trends and Affordability Report finds it now takes more than 84.2 per cent of pre-tax household income to service the cost of owning a bungalow in Vancouver’
Taxes must be really low in Canada!
No, it’s just different here. They’re not making anymore land you know.
$92 oil not helping
can need $110 to keep this party going
That’s one of the crazier real estate statistics the Housing Bubble has generated to date. What percentage of Vancouverites pay more than 84.2 per cent of their pre-tax household income to own a bungalow?
Some comments to this article:
‘There ain’t no bubble. This bubble concept is hope for dreamers who cannot afford to buy in the city. The only thing which may bring vancouvers housing prices down is a significant earthquake or rising ocean levels. Let’s not hope for that anytime soon.’
‘No wonder child povery in BC is so high when people have to pay so much for housing. Of course this drives up rents as well.’
‘If the word “bubble” doesn’t come into your mind driving around this construction site pretending to be a city with a tower going up on every corner then I’d advise you to go buy some property in Dubai. Statistics are showing an exodus of Canadian born residents to other provinces and Hong Kong immigrants. The Taiwan, Korean and mainland Chinese waves are over. Vancouver continues to lose businesses left and right. Robson Street is a third vacancies (don’t believe me? go look). So why hasn’t the bubble popped despite predictions? Simple, interest rates are still close to zero. Once interest rates start to rise, this bizarre condo bubble will come down like a house of cards.’
‘What this city needs is a riot that isn’t related to Hockey.’
Simple, interest rates are still close to zero. Once interest rates start to rise, this bizarre condo bubble will come down like a house of cards ??
I agree…As you have shown Ben this is a world wide Phenomenon as regard interest rates and money seeking safety or yield and much outright speculation…When the interest rate metric changes, particularly in any significant way it is going to have world wide implications…
“Once interest rates start to rise, this bizarre condo bubble will come down like a house of cards ??”
That’s one reason I expect the central bankers to do everything in their power to prevent interest rates from rising any time soon.
That’s one reason I expect the central bankers to do everything in their power to prevent interest rates from rising any time soon.
Governments, will do everything too. IMHO the more important reason for interest rates to stay low is that governments couldn’t begin to service their debts at “normal” interest rates.
These bubbles are not only in the stock, bond, and real estate markets, but also within businesses - particularly manufacturers.
They are currently making good profits based on being able to over economize staff and cheap interest rates. About a half of their profits seem to be coming from this.
As well, several have been using their cash reserves to repurchase their shares and their gross margins are not as good as historically.
“That’s one of the crazier real estate statistics the Housing Bubble has generated to date.”
Canada is absolutely batsh((t insane, that’s my only explanation. Their prices don’t even closely resemble the replacement cost of the structure. 300-500/sq/ft is “normal” in suburbia Canada. All of this in one of the least densely populated countries in the world.
Canada’s collapse is going to make FL/NV look like total child’s play. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a drop of 75% in some markets in Canada; most of the country needs to drop at least 40-50% to get anywhere back close to normal affordability.
I wonder if the Canadians have the “everyone wants to live here” mantra beaten into the heads like we did in FL. If so, it would be pretty funny; let me let you Canada RE agents in on something. Most people who live in Canada don’t want to live there. Let alone the rest of the world!
“I wonder if the Canadians have the “everyone wants to live here” mantra beaten into the heads like we did in FL.”
Are you kidding? The “we’re special” attitude is pervasive. Mere talk of a bubble is immediately met with denial, and often anger.
“The “we’re special” attitude is pervasive.”
Oh yeah, Canada is special, but I’m not sure it’s in exactly the way that they are thinking.
We’re more special than they are, and I’m more special than we are. Lets leave it at that.
“The Great Realtor RipOff”
http://www.economist.com/node/21554204
‘Veritas suggests that such a scenario would have implications for Canada’s banks. “Banks with large relative exposures could endure higher loan losses,” the report says. “[Bank of Nova Scotia], for instance, and [Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce] have slightly larger uninsured condo balances relative to common equity.’
“Concurrently, or independently, buyers of unfinished condos may have trouble closing, for a variety of reasons,” the report adds. “Depending on market conditions, private developers may absorb significant losses, and banks that lend at high [loan-to-values] can be expected to share in those losses.”
‘The researchers found that mortgage pre-approvals were not needed to buy condos, adding to the risk that some buyers who have bought condos that have not yet been built will not close on the deal.’
Wait a minute. I’ve seen this movie before.
janet yellen is going to get interest rates back down to 3% so home prices can go up more.
Given that low interest rates were insufficient to stop a 2-decades long home price slide in Japan, why do you think they would prevent one in America?
its been working here buddy. I’m spending some equity today on xmas gifts. are you going to call the landlord for a loan?
$hitHouse Poet,
It’s now working in the opposite direction.
keep brown nosing buddy.
You sound angry today $hitHouse Poet.
“…are you going to call the landlord for a loan?”
So far as I can tell, they’re broke. They came by yesterday to do a five-minute kludge repair job on a bathroom sink. They aren’t really qualified to do plumber’s work.
We did have a plumber over last week to repair the leak in the water line from the last time the landlords did a do-it-yourself job (on the same sink). The plumber said the entire sink needs to be replaced. But apparently the landlords don’t have enough cash on hand to pay for that.
I don’t call anybody for a loan. I have enough cash to rent for 75 years if I want to.
I agree Pbear…Arn’t we tracking just like Japan ??
“Wait a minute. I’ve seen this movie before.”
Wasn’t it different before? Warmer climate or perhaps sand, I believe…
This reminds me of something. The other day I watched the first Hunger Games on Netflix. I realized it is a total knock off of an Asian film I watched before. (It was Japanese or Korean, I can’t remember). The Asian movie was better.
There’s this theme. It can’t be a bubble, it’s not exactly like it was before. China doesn’t have a bubble, they don’t have low down payments. Canada isn’t a bubble, because it doesn’t look like the US in 2006.
From the Reuters piece:
‘London independent property market analyst Jonathan Davis had this to say: ‘If it walks like a duck…Yes. UK housing has been in a bubble for 10 years. All bubbles eventually burst, although with massive political intervention, they can (last) longer than usual.’
Battle Royale.
The movie will be looped so that it plays continuously.
From the point of view of someone living in a Western country, I would characterize this century so far as one of absolutely unprecedented propaganda triumphs. Citzenship means the freedom to act like a big, dumb sheep, sheared for the benefit of entities and people who don’t care what country they’re from.
“It would cost $22,606,270 to buy all nine French chateâus, $193,730 less than the single Vancouver tear down — enough savings to pay for hundreds of flights between Vancouver and Paris. The Point Grey property is also still on the market.”
I’m guessing the Chinese oligarchs find it more convenient to invest in Vancouver than in Paris. Otherwise, how could such a large anomaly persist between the prices of Vancouver tear downs and French chateâus?
The vancouver teardowns are closer to nightlife and the airport .
The French seem to stick up for themselves more. They might have a problem with a big chunk of the native population being driven from a major city by foreigners.
We North Americans seem to suffer from the blind spot that lost the first batch of native Americans their land.
“He sees the condo, which has an estimated market value of $335,000, as a foot in the door of the Vancouver housing market.”
If Lisa isn’t careful, she may end up with a broken foot.
“Frugalness has given Lisa an opportunity to have what will be an unencumbered asset, her condo, after it is paid off by age 49 or 50. If the condo, with a present market price of $335,000, appreciates at just 2% a year over inflation, it will have a theoretical market price of $595,000 in 2013 dollars at her age 67. Every year she pays down the mortgage, her equity will grow.”
Vancouver housing always goes up!
“She does have a way out. Lisa could sell the condo, pay off her loans, and walk away.”
The RE peeps push that “exit gate” strategy as if a sucker will always be ready buy your albatross for top dollar. LOL!
“Asked if prime London property is an example of an asset price bubble, Stephen Lewis of Monument Securities says: ‘A ‘bubble’ would imply that prices might fall suddenly and steeply, but there seem to be enough international cash purchasers to prevent that happening.’”
We’ll know it was a bubble when the international cash purchasers vanish.
“We’ll know it was a bubble when the international cash purchasers vanish.”
I miss those street corner sign twirlers. In San Jose, CA there was a twirler wearing a gorilla costume; a metaphor of the excitement.
A acquaintance said, “When the water cooler disappears it’s over.”
‘Prices and activity could fall dramatically, but it would not be a U.S.-style, global credit market event since much of the impact could be absorbed by domestic factors.’
Tell that to the all-cash Chinese investors who drove Canada bungalow costs up to 84.2 per cent of pre-tax household income.
I guess the channel stuffing at GM is getting crazy again. they cant sell cars at these ridiculous prices. I guess they are leasing the dodge dart with 0 down.
I saw a 2011 gmc truck with 25k miles and ll the bells and whistles for 45 grand on craigslist the other day. Had to laugh at that one. How many homes in detroit could you buy with 45,000 ?
“How many homes in detroit could you buy with 45,000 ?”
The same number you can buy in Phoenix or Vegas and parts of California….. eventually all of California.
Remember….Houses depreciate rapidly.
how many years have you been saying that same bs buddy? you have no credibility here.
12 months or so?
I didn’t know that housing depreciation is a new phenomenon.
Dude, you talk like a babe in the woods. The industry of these places is building houses, so you can leverage up and HELOC your way to a pink Cadillac. When you stop borrowing, the whole house comes down. We’ve got our eyes on you.
I’m pretty sure he’s a realtor shill trying to do a false flag HBB discrediting thing. His grammar is too good for him to be as dumb as he reads.
Read it again knucklehead.
It was even dumber the second time.
No. Not your post.
“I saw a 2011 gmc truck with 25k miles and ll the bells and whistles for 45 grand on craigslist the other day.”
At work, a new pickup truck, 3/4-ton 4×4, turbo-diesel w/service bed is $60k, and that’s a fleet purchase! Damned thing will be auctioned three years later with over 100k miles on it. Fuel, summer and winter tires, insurance, scheduled maintenance, etc., no wonder the fed propped up the big three.
DirtyMax or PowerJoke?
Likely both or all three. I’m a civil engineer, so I don’t get one, but the technical guys live in them and rack up the miles. Heck, I thought I drove a lot when I was a repo-man, but that was the Metro SF bay area. Everything in flyover is no less than 30-minutes away, and usually 90-minutes for something real.
jeeez i didn’t know you were a civy….. What’s your latest gig?
http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Shiller-Bubble-Housing-Stocks/2013/12/01/id/539329
‘economist Robert Shiller and DoubleLine Capital CEO Jeffrey Gundlach see no bubble in the housing market even though the index has soared 13.3 percent this year through September.’
“We went through the biggest housing bubble in U.S. history in the 2000s, and there is a knee-jerk reaction among some people who think maybe we are doing that again,” Shiller told Barron’s.’
“But you have to consider that these are very rare phenomena, and it was such a decisive break at the end of the last housing bubble that we might not be psychologically ready for another bubble.”
This is sorta what Orr in Arizona says. It’s too soon for another bubble. What if it’s the same bubble? Look at US stocks from 1926 to 1933.
‘Shiller’s questionnaire of home buyers shows that expectations for home-price increases have fallen faster than mortgage rates since 2004. “So, people’s views must be less and less sanguine,” he said. “The latest survey we did, in May and June of this year, found that long-term expectations are picking up a little bit, but only incrementally. To be sure, some cities are seeing booms, such as Las Vegas, Shiller said. “But I don’t know where it is going.”
Thousands of people leave ownership and start renting every month, so of course they aren’t driving these prices. Why don’t you poll the investors that are?
“Marc Faber, publisher of the Gloom Boom & Doom Report, is convinced that bubbles already are full blown. “You have to say that we are again in a massive financial bubble in bonds, in equities, in [other] asset prices that have gone up dramatically,” he told CNBC. “Farmland is up 10 times over the last 10 years. Bitcoins are up now, and who knows what will go up next. We are in a gigantic speculative bubble.”
The housing finance system in this country is totally artificial. Without government insuring or buying nearly 100% of mortgages for the past five years, the system would reach equilibrium at much lower price points. No one would be willing to buy Mortgage Backed Securities without government insurance. What does that tell you about the market, and prices?
This is central planning at its finest. I hear about some popular economic commentators (Krugman, Summers) preaching about the benefit of bubbles. And by implication how the government should then encourage them.
But government should not be picking sectors to win and lose. The “Invisible Hand” is scary and chaotic, but it works when there is well-considered REGULATION. Not active government intervention in the markets to pick winners and losers.
Encouraging bubbles is pure picking sectors to win and lose.
How about just a strong regulatory framework instead of having the government and central bank actually wading into the market to pick winners and losers?
I would not be surprised to see 2% loans directly from the govt to stop the next leg down.
“we might not be psychologically ready for another bubble…”
He hits on something here but misses the bull’s eye. Those whose foolishness got them a brutal crushing are not ready for another go, they never will be. There is no “we” though and various other mobs are still eager to grab the brass ring. This is why sucker’s rallies are part of a bubble anatomy. It’s turtles all the way down.
‘various other mobs are still eager to grab the brass ring’
Good point. And on this:
‘these are very rare phenomena’
Yes, super-very rare, like every couple centuries or so. Yet did Mr Shiller not say yesterday that US stocks were in a bubble, even though the last bubble was just a few years ago? My my, it almost makes one think there is something at play here that didn’t happen before. And if that’s the case, all this reliance on historical recurrences of bubbles is out the window.
When I was studying economics, bubbles would be mentioned. There was no theory of manias. No predictors. They happened too seldom, too isolated and too long ago to bother with. In economic terms, it would be a one page deal, saying “WTF was that?” Long story short, we’re dealing with a phenomenon that is unusual, and there are no real experts on mass financial insanity.
“experts”
You can’t apply logic to an illogical situation.
“U.S. homeownership rate at 18-year low in 3Q”
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-78057961/
This is what happens when prices are massively inflated for……… drum roll please……… 18 years.
But don’t be troubled because the rate will exceed historic highs as this collapse gains strength.
Always the understatement. The roots of this go back further.
I know I know but the brutal truth is too much take for most people. Gotta start with small pieces of truth.
“Realtor accused of $50 million fraud scheme, own parents allegedly victims”
http://agbeat.com/housing-news/realtor-accused-of-50-million-fraud-scheme-targeting-own-parents/
“Miss. realtor accused of poisoning, killing dogs”
http://www.wmctv.com/story/20715827/miss-realtor-accused-of-poisoning-killing-dogs
California Most Impoverish State In The US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate
(geography adjusted)
DC actually tops the list but that particular nest of corruption isn’t a state…. thank God.
Sacramento CA Housing Inventory up a Whopping 83% as Prices Crater
With 4.4 MILLION excess empty and defaulted houses in California alone, this shouldn’t be any surprise.
http://www.movoto.com/statistics/ca/sacramento.htm#city=&time=6M&metric=Median%20List%20Price&type=0
Tampa Florida Housing Inventory Skyrockets 50%
A sea of excess empty housing units.
http://www.movoto.com/statistics/fl/tampa.htm#city=&time=1Y&metric=Median%20List%20Price&type=0
Her salary has declined in the last year and mortgage payments, fees and taxes for her downtown Vancouver condo now cost her $2,149 a month, which works out to more than half of her $3,758 monthly take home income.”
Wait. I thought that getting locked in for 30 years and not having to deal with any increases was the best possible course of action?
Canada doesn’t have 30 year fixed rate mortgages. The interest rates reset every five years.
So is her mortgage payment more likely to go down or up? If it goes up while her wages are going down she’s even more screwed.
If you read the article you’ll see she’s underwater right now.
Mortgage $321K (25 years)
Home Buyers Plan $25K <— Canadian equiv of a piggyback loan?
Total owed: $346K
Condo worth: $335K
The article gives her a choice to
1. Sell now.
2. Stop contributing to retirement and use the cash to pay down the loan and save interest.
It will be a tough decision for her, but from what I can tell.
1. Vancouver is in a bubble for sure, and she would be blind not to see it.
2. She’s in a condo and those are much more poised to drop than an SFH.
3. She’s already maxed, there’s no way to refinance.
4. Her income is going down, not up, so she’s obviously not in a stable job. She needs instant mobility.
5. The financial advisor had to dismiss the idea of selling out with a misleading statement like “she will lose a valuable asset.”
6. The financial advisor had to go through a LOT of gymnastics to make staying there pencil out. If it’s that complex it’s probably not a good idea.
Lisa needs to sell and rent.
” a LOT of gymnastics…”
Well, you get a calculated answer based on the assumptions. He lied to her that housing will keep going up ahead of inflation for the next couple of decades. Wanting to believe makes you blind.
” interest rates reset every five years….”
That may be the common, but other terms are negotiable.
“Lisa could sell the condo, pay off her loans, and walk away. She would be free….”
There it is! Choose freedom.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-02/most-autos-on-u-s-lots-since-05-has-ford-leading-cuts.html?cmpid=yhoo
car inventory backing up on lots
‘Not long ago, before the financial crisis and the global recession it triggered, economists referred to Americans as the consumers of last resort. When the U.S. grew at a healthy pace, its citizens were buyers, fueling demand for the goods China and other nations produced. They kept the world economy humming.’
‘It may not work that way anymore, Bloomberg Markets magazine will report in its January issue. A rebounding U.S. is giving less support to global growth than in the past. Homegrown demand and production are more important drivers of the world’s biggest economy than they were a decade ago.’
“Are we worried? Of course,” Reserve Bank of India Governor Raghuram Rajan said at the IMF’s annual meeting in Washington in October. “Everyone is worried about a global storm.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-02/america-s-role-as-consumer-of-last-resort-goes-missing.html