‘We Can Pretty Much Live Anywhere, Can’t We?’
A couple of readers suggest regional price comparisons for a topic. “Why would $325K get you a crack shack in grimy SoCal, while the same money will get you this in North Dakota?”
A reply, “You see in that ad where it says ‘WINDY’?? That may give you a clue….. On a serious note, your point is well taken…If you reduce it down to basic quality of life issues; food, health, family & friends we can pretty much live anywhere can’t we ??”
Another said, “Brrrrrr. I’d like to see some pics around January. Of course, with global warming, it could be like Phoenix real soon.”
One considers amenities. “Dang…sweet! But (there is always a ‘but’ right) you would really have to enjoy isolation to live in this house. I want my kids to have lots of friends to hang out with, good restaurants to enjoy, and entertainment, so I’m destined to be in the suburbs of a major city.”
And another said, “Or, spend just a little more (or low ball) and live safe as a hobbit in this dwelling ’secretly’ secured in Durango, Co.”
That ultimate secure home has been on the market for over a year. Low-ball anyone?
We called it “the bear cave” since it would appeal to the world is ending crowd.
Housing for the truly paranoid…
Subkommander Dred
That is so funny! A few years ago, I seriously considered that Colorado place. Appealed to me for some reason.
Also we lived in a log house very briefly while waiting for the one we were really going to occupy to open up. My husband called it “The Ponderosa.” It wasn’t bad but very bad for heating and cooling.
Okay, so the North Dakota property chills you out. How about a place in a warmer area, like the southern border of Kansas. This nice looking house in a small town looks well worth the asking price of $52,000. What would it sell for in Orange County?
http://tinyurl.com/fzv2v
Kansas looks interesting…but what happens when the 27 blue hair residents in the picture die off? Is that the end of the town?
J/k’ing
I lived in Wichita for a couple of years ‘80 - ‘82. Kansas really isn’t that bad of a place overall. It does stay windy there and it’s flat but the country is beautiful.
Thats alot of house for the money ,but , I can’t get the WIZARD OF OZ out of my mind .
lol…actually the picture of the local bank cracked me up. It looks like the same bank Bonnie and Clyde knocked off. Like a snapshot out of time. What do these residents do if they want sushi, or need a cardiologist? I can picture these sort of places where the older waitress at the diner calls everyone “Honey”…
Don’t let the flippers see these listings , they will run fast to buy them up and ruin the towns .
The flippers are out of gas. Besides, if you really wanted to live there they would probably give you a house.
If you want to live in Ellsworth, KA you can get free land here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9058504/
There are many other places like this across the country. Yes, you truly have a choice where you live and they will welcome you with open arms.
I get bored having to drive through Kansas; I can’t imagine living there. ‘Modern living’ spoils you a bit, your expectations, your attention span, your idea of a good time. As a youngster, we’d visit a great uncle of mine once every few years. He and his wife lived in a small house/farm in po-dunk, rural Missouri, with the nearest home being about a mile away.
No TV. A radio. But most of the time they weren’t working on the farm, they’d sit outside and talk, or just sit there, or whiddle. Not much else to do.
That looks overpriced at $52K. Prolly a $45K house at most.
Sounds like the broker is desparate? Give then a low ball offer of $49k ? heheheheheh
100 years old! Talk about your bubble price!
Try these. Beautiful areas too.
http://halifax.craigslist.org/rfs/172124458.html
http://halifax.craigslist.org/rfs/171450047.html
http://halifax.craigslist.org/rfs/169973497.html
http://halifax.craigslist.org/rfs/170083707.html
http://halifax.craigslist.org/rfs/167855695.html
How did you find these? You’re right, the areas are beautiful.
I have a house of my own in that area.
Nice. Are those Canadian dollars?
Yes. Canadian clownbux.
Here’s a deal in North Carolina. Nice house that needs redecorating, and almost five acres. Looks a lot like Atlanta.
http://tinyurl.com/z972t
Yes. Canadian clownbux.
Gonna be worth more than yours by the time the clown goes back to his ranch.
Heheheh, good one!
do you live in the area?
If not, I was wondering how you maintain the house while not be close by to care for it.
It’s rented out to a family member who takes care of it.
Nice houses, too bad the winters in the Canadian east are hellish…
Or you can just rent this for the summer at $1300/month
http://halifax.craigslist.org/vac/172548228.html
Seriously, Nova Scotia could be hot real estate soon. Lots of babyboomer Upper Canadians (what we call Ontario people) will be looking at this place as a retirement spot. This is Canada’s Florida with much less hurricanes and crazily overpriced condos.
That is not far from my place.
Here’s an article in today’s local paper about what a million (Canadian) dollars will get you in Nova Scotia:
http://www.herald.ns.ca/Front/507883.html
Quote from article:
The only thing more varied than the size of the properties is the people who buy them. They’re Swiss, German, American and Australian. They were born in Nova Scotia but they’ve been away, living in Calgary, Edmonton or Toronto — and now they’re back.
“They’re not usually local,” says Joan Harris-Reid, an agent for Tradewinds Realty in Lunenburg. She advertises in Britain, which she says has the latest big tide of buyers.
Lunenburg is a really cool little place. About 5 miles from my house.
I considered just moving into the house a couple of times but spending the Christmas of 1988 there did me in. It was one of those Noreaster blizzards. Took almost two hours to get from the house to the Halifax airport to fly back to LA (talk about culture shock!) - getting on the plane in a blizzard in Halifax and off at LAX. I wish it wasn’t so damn cold in Maritime Canada because I just love it there.
OMG! I love the place on Hammond Lake Drive! Awesome colors! Those would get you sued and your house burned down in Dallas.
Go there on January 15th, any year. It’s only -10F with a 25 mph wind. Don’t breath the air or you’ll freeze your lungs.
> Don’t breath the air or you’ll freeze your lungs
You big baby!
Nix that North Dakota house. No grainte counter tops. What a rip!
I gotta put this here so you all will be sure to see it. I hope SoCal Mortgage Guy is still around to see this one:
http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/rfs/171922348.html
Great program, adding over a half of a million dollars to your mortgage every five years is a great idea
That is if rates stay flat. What is the bank going to do when this guy forecloses, and the house is only worth 2 Mil. I sure hope they are requiring a ton of verified reserves.
I would also like to know who is buying these loans on the secondary market, so I can short them.
I found some amazing vintage films from the 1930’s and 1940’s at Myvesta
I especially recommend watching “Using The BanK”, among the many other interesting films.
It gives perspective of how people percieved banks, loans, money, credit etc just after the “Great Depression”
Or buy a cheap lot in KS, ND or NE and slap one of these babies on it: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2006/06/16/carollloyd.DTL
“He only owed 3.4 mill, so we got him out almost 2 million cash in less then fifteen days. His payments are a low $20,400 as opposed to the $30,208 he has on his original amount of $5mill. He’s saving $9,808 a month, $117,696 a year, and $588,480 in five years!”
WOW!!
Dear fellow bloggers,
We have a chance to expose a predatory lender giving an insider Q&A interview with Lansner for the OCregister. You should contribute to help others from commiting financial misery. Here’s the link: http://blogs.ocregister.com/lansner/
Wow, there are some truly clueless people posting on the that blog. Anyone catch LHM posting over there? He has no idea how many people the OC mortgage companies have layed off already.
The old “there’s only so much land…” routine.
Same old tired stuff!
to help others from commiting financial misery
___________________________________________________
Screw them, let them learn the hard way. LHM is annoying.. I will return to that blog once the OC has YOY declines.
I second that. They are just in the beggining stages of denial. A few of my co-workers are going through that same stage. Some of them bought houses here in SD, others in FL, and AZ.
Give it a couple of months. I predicted YOY price declines in June ( a month ago) in SD. I think we have a shot.
Boycott Lansner’s blog, his heavy edits of reasonable bear postings and posting of nutcase loon bear postings are painting an innacurate picture.
OK tommy trojan ….I went over to the Lansner link and I posted a comment but I got this statement that they will have to approve my post ,so I don’t know if it got in or not .
Housing Wizard:
In all likelihood you will be edited.
You might want to post here or in the bits bucket.
There is a post in the Bits Bucket where I make my feeble case that Lansner is painting an inaccurate picture of bears with his heavy handed edits.
What I want to know is how did he get predatory lending from that article or post.
Lots of GREAT new pics. I Love “flipper alley” .
After reading that article posted here about 4S ranch, we had to do some recon. I simply am awestruck by how much they are asking for these fairly mundane houses in a crowded area.
That North Dakota place is awesome. I’d love it, and I could barely afford it if I was willing to really stretch my budget (on fixed 30 yr of course).
But I don’t think that part of ND is going to have the same jobs as DC, so I stay, at least until I get permission to fly a supersonic VTOL plane into DC, land on top of my building, and commute that way.
If I were retiring now? Lets see, spend 325K on a 1 BR condo in DC, the same amount on a 2 BR condo close to the beach (but at that price probably a mile off the shore) or the ranch in ND? Easy choice.
I like the hobbit house too but at 6′3″ I’d have to wear a football helmet inside.
I liked it too. Never cared for privacy until I lived in the Stepford town and got stung by the Gladys Kravitz’s who never cared too much for accuracy. Right now, privacy and a property large enough to enjoy with my friends would suit me just fine. Loved that tax bill too.
And the answer is that there IS a difference. Yes, you can live in the middle of nowhere, but quality of like is more than just access to food and shelter.
-There may not be any employers in the area that need your particular skillset, leaving you with either no job or having to change careers.
-Your family may decline to leave where they are currently settled, which means either a bunch of added expense to travel to see them or becoming estranged from your family.
-Access to a range of quality health-care may or may not be convenient.
-If you don’t like the local schools you may not have any other options aside from home-schooling.
-If you’re not a member of the “majority” religion, there might be only a handful of your co-religionists in the area.
All or none of those issues might matter to you. The point is, availability of cheap housing is only one of many issues related to quality of life.
I have tought a long time about leaving San Diego and returning to the middle of the country. Some thoughts on your concerns:
On Employers One of the fun things about this country is that its fairly easy to become your own employer, you will also find that you will work longer hours, but if you are doing what you love there will likely be less stress.
On Health Care I thought this might be true as well. The reality of what I have seen might not bear that out though. Seems there are a good percentage of doctors who don’t want to live in places like Las Vegas, Dallas or San Diego. They don’t like the traffic, the crime or the rest of that either. True you won’t get cutting edge UCLA medical center techniques, but when your kid breaks his arm falling out of a tree, it hardly matters. If you get Ebola, they are going to fly you to someplace like UCLA anyhow.
On Relgion Interestingly enough, the core foundation of folks that settled middle america in the 1800s and early 1900s were folks escaping Europe. At least in the parts of the Midwest I have lived in, most folks tend to mind their own business and don’t hassle anyone else. There are a few people that dont’, but generally nobody likes them anyhow.
Properties like these are best geared towards the well-prepared retiree, or the misanthropic novel writer… while they beat the stuffing out of the suburban homes I’ve seen lately, they’re not your average family move-in for sure. Cheaper housing IS available though… you just won’t be near the beach.
Don’t know if this was posted yet…sorry I’m in a hurry today not much time to read thru everything…good article from the LA Times
Sellers’ New Math
The number of days it’s taking houses to sell is adding up. So some prices are coming down.
http://tinyurl.com/l9sbs
Why would anyone want to live in ND with space, clean air and a simple life when you can live in LA. Before long you’d be very homesick for the bad air, commutes, road rage, gang violence, 24/7 hustle, and stress that you’ve known all your life. For 320K you can have a fantastic shithole in a shithole “hood” in LA. There’s just no comparison.
Also ,regarding the wonderful cabin house for 325K ,it wouldn’t be fun getting snow bound or getting caught in a blizzard . The same house would be over a million in Big Bear and Lake Arrowhead I’m sure .
Oh I don’t know — yet once again much of the crowd is looking down on “flyover” country. I would buy the place in North Dakota in a heartbeat, and be very proud of it. If I could afford it, I would have that place for a spring/summer/early fall home, and fly down to AZ for the winter. I don’t need to live in a McMansion — for the price of one North Virginia or N.J. McMansion, I could have the best of both worlds…..in 2 delightful homes. Frankly, as retirement approaches ever nearer and my husband nears the end of pharmacy school, we are looking much more closely at location — where it would be easy for us as we got older. Small town living can be great. I wouldn’t mind tooling along in a pickup truck to go into town to get groceries. Besides, in these smaller areas, there is always some honest couple that can be recommended by the local minister as people who can look after your property, schlep in groceries, clean a little, etc. as a way to supplement their Social Security checks. I’d rather pay $ 325,000 for that beautiful ranch and fly out to a rental apartment in the winters, or a small home we owned, then put up with OC bullsh—t.
Folks, I lived 5 years in a place very similar to the ND property in my 40s. And then it was time to return to the marketplace of ideas. We romanticize about these wide open spaces/Mayberry doo dah….tooling around getting groceries, friendly people, don’t have to lock the doors, etc. Trust me, if this situation were so idyllic, we would all be living there already. There are significant downsides - even for the laid back. But nice place to visit.
I spent a week in a very nice house on Hilton Head. Unfortunately, I don’t play golf. A week was great, two weeks would have been a long time.
That ND place looks absolutely awesome, but then the awesomeness wears off and the snow flurries start. I would guess that average time on market for a place like that could range 2-5 years. Then you’d have to hope it occupied pretty much the whole time it was for sale.
“A couple of readers suggest regional price comparisons for a topic. ‘Why would $325K get you a crack shack in grimy SoCal, while the same money will get you this in North Dakota?’ ”
I would love to be able to live in another state where the cost of living is not as high. I think the weather in SD is over rated. All of my family lives here, so it would be tough to justify moving to another state in order to buy a home.
My wife and I make good money, and can afford to buy a home right now. It would be a stretch, but we could. Once homes that are currently listed for 850K, start listing for 500K I will buy.
My goal is to spend 450K (after low balling those listed at 500K). 450K still is a lot of money. At that point in time, it would probably be possible to be able to buy a house in other desireable areas of the country for under 250K. The questions is can I justify spending an extra 200K for a home here in SD.
Just to compare monthly payments, and the total price paid for the home here are some calculations.
450K home with 10% down. Finance 405K at say 8% payment is $2,971 P and I for thirty years. Total paid for the home after thirty years of payments is $1,069,560.
Same house somewhere else 250K with the same down payment of 45K. P and I come to $1,504 a month. After 30 years of payments you would have paid $541,440 for that home.
An extra $528,120 is a lot of money to live closer to family and friends. That is not including taxes, because those are variable in most states except CA. Insurance is also not included for the same reason.
Couple of side notes…. since I am only putting 10% down I plan on have a year worth of reserves rotating in 6 month CD’s or longer terms if I foresee rates decreasing. Also I plan on making bi-weekly payments, so that my mortgage will be paid off within 22-23 years. I will probably refinance at some point to lock in a lower rate on a 15 year fixed.
“450K still is a lot of money.”
That is the fundamental truth that will drive this market down and down and down. It was talked about like chump change when prices were red-hot. Imagine trying to save up that much money from just your work and how long it would take.
There are a lot of advantages to living close to family. I don’t, but I often wish I did. It would be really nice to have the grandparents take the kids once in awhile - or even regularly the way they can for my sister. Plus, as my folks get older I expect I’ll need to fly out to visit them due to health concerns more and more often. Some of the advantages of living close to family can be assigned a monetary value and some can’t. Of course, same goes for the drawbacks.
Here’s all you need to know about Carrington, ND….from the ad:
Carrington, ND: A full service center with a population of approx. 3,010. Airport with jet capable landing strip, new 18 hole golf course with 5 mile paved bike trail, 25 private bed health facility and just 16 miles south of the North American Bison Processing and Sausage Plant in New Rockford, ND. Fargo, Minot, Bismarck, and Grand Forks, ND are all a two-hour drive away.
Just a mere two hours from the big doin’s in Fargo and slaughterhouse convenient… In the words of Homer Simpson “Mmmm, Bison”
Ted Kazinsky would feel overly isolated in that house.
Or, you can rent! Like this guy:
http://tinyurl.com/jht5o
I think Mark Kiesel’s explanation of the unsustainability of the rise in current pricing in housing is the most succinct, yet easy-to-understand articles on the subject I’ve ever read. Figures, from a bond guy. I’ve bookmarked it and will print it off in case anyone I know is interested. Most people I know aren’t. However, my people/family/friends are more financially conservative than most of the other associates that posters here refer to, so most of them aren’t in the trouble that plagues this country.
I was actually tempted by the North Dakota home (another case of a Californian thinking the price was fair because of CA fundamentals and not local area fundamentals.) I could care less about SD weather and hate the idea of paying such a huge “sunshine tax.” However, I did do some local research and decided the potential -38 degrees in January a bit more frigid than even I can take.
Two questions: 1.) On propane use I am figuring about $2.30/gallon which would mean about $4,600/year to heat this place? and
2.) Are property taxes of only $1,272/year realistic? Any ND’ers who would know?
Thanks!
It’s easy not to care about year-round nice weather until you no longer are in it. My friend from San Diego was considering a move to either Rochester, NY or Chapel Hill, SC. He went to Rochester in the dead of winter and it was so cold that the car froze solid and they broke the key off in the door and had to crawl through the hatchback. Then in South Carolina they got off the plane on a 98 degree day with 98% humidity. It was like getting punched in the stomach. As my buddy from SC says about the summers there: “It’s like rolling yourself up in a hot, damp steamy comforter from the dryer and then lying down in the driveway.”
On the bright side, you’ll have plenty of time to do the propane and tax math while you are snowed in for three months next winter!
I’ve lived in Denver and Indiana so I’ve shovelled snow and dealt with humidity. But not this extreme cold. I actually love winter, strange considering I grew up in Orange County, but I don’t think Denver compares to ND or even New York. On the other hand in my two years in Denver I never had a real winter coat - cold has never bothered me much. Has anyone had a GOOD experience moving to an extreme climate from a mellow one?
Well, I once had to move from a tropical country (similar climate to Jamaica, let’s say) to Zurich, Switzerland due to work. Zurich doesn’t go much below zero, but when travelling and skiing I’ve experienced -30 degrees C and it was not too bothersome. Black ice on roads was dangerous, though.
The winters can be so long, cold, and depressing that people have been known to resort to cannibalism…
But seriously, I think the isolation of this place is more it’s downside than the weather.
Is that cannibalism due to extreme hunger? Or that the kids finally drove them over the edge after being cooped up all winter and they had to find a way to get rid of the bodies.
By snow-belt standards, like midwest or NE, Denver only has a few weeks of “winter” scattered through the months of Nov-Mar. The climate there is really pretty nice. Summers are pleasant, and the mountains are very closeby if you want some cooler temps on the weekends.
Albany NY where I live has a similar climate to Madison WI (but twice the rain/snow). It is cold here. Most years the Hudson River freezes over. I lived in Boston and thought that was cold and here is 5C/9F colder in January. So imagine ND which is so much North of Madison. I moved here from Canberra Australia. Great climate there. Born in London (like Seattle) no real cold there either.
Um, Chapel Hill’s in NORTH Carolina. And there is a difference.
http://tinyurl.com/opsf5 See you in Altoona Pa my new favorite place!!! Those $412.00 dollar payments are killers!!! I might have to get a job.
Re: The ND house.. Do a realtor.com search. You can get many similar places for way under the $325k price. If you’re going to sacrifice convenience, buy that increadibly cheap place ,and get out once winter sets in. Use the difference you save and write your memoirs on the beach in Hawaii….
Here’s another place in the same town…..4/2 1920’s rancher
http://tinyurl.com/f2qsq
…..
I would blow my brains out in that place.
the purchase price is right, but what kind of money is needed to do maintenance on a place like that?
“Two questions: 1.) On propane use I am figuring about $2.30/gallon which would mean about $4,600/year to heat this place? and
2.) Are property taxes of only $1,272/year realistic? Any ND’ers who would know?”
I don’t live in ND but I’ve been there several times and I bought and sold a farmhouse there.
A lot of people heat with coal since it’s relatively cheap, especially in the central and western part of the state. But the cost of heating that mansion could be what’s driving the couple out after owning it for only 2 years. With ever increasing energy costs it just doesn’t make sense to live in a huge McMansion like that in a cold climate, especially if you have to rely on propane or electricity.
Interestingly, quite a few people from Minnesota are retiring to North Dakota because of cheap housing. Also, it helps if you have a Norweigan accent.
The tax rate in ND is very low, so the $1272 might be right.
After living in ND for one year you will have this house on the market for whatever price you can get. There are many places with good weather and reasonable prices that are better than the upper midwest. Try Cloudcroft, NM for one.
Ooooh, I like that area (throw in Ruidoso, too). And there are some decent government/tourism related jobs.
Don’t move just for cheap house/land prices. Forget about prices, think about the exact lifestyle you want, and go where you need to go to have the lifestyle that you really want. There are fantastic bubblesitting/rental opportunities all over the place right now.
Okay, how about this place in Cloudcroft, NM $39,900:
http://tinyurl.com/rzjan
Oops, it’s sold.
Or this in Santa Fe (my dream town) . . .
http://tinyurl.com/hn9np
Oh man . . .
also my favorite city in North America.
That’s a nice house I like that, I’d own that.
Me too. I put three more links to other Santa Fe houses here, but the post didn’t take, and I’m too lazy to track them down again.
Santa Fe has to be one of the most beautiful places on Earth with spectacular architecture and vistas. And it never gets too hot or humid!!! Yeah! It’s supposed to get to 82 today, but so far hasn’t. The low for today is 53.
The jobs there (professional) pay suprisingly well given that it’s such a small city. I was surprised when I looked.
And so many artists. How could you ever be bored there? The food, the scenery, the perfect climate! It’s maybe a little more liberal than I am, but so what? I do dislike the fact that it’s a sanctuary city (it protects illegal immigrants) and that it occasionally has a case of bubonic plague, but hey, come to Tampa if you want to experience real horror. What a dump.
I considered taking a job there as a gallery manager. It would pay 1/10th of what I make but how interesting and fun.
Being a gallery manager would be wonderful. The art there is astonishing. And the architecture!!!
http://santafe.org/Image_Library/index.html
You know, Jon Bon Jovi’s vampire movie was filmed there (it was pretty good, too).
Most of my relatives live in Santa Fe. You can get bored there. It’s gotten overpriced and has lost some of the hip, young vibe. Many of the artists in my generation and younger are choosing to live and work elsewhere, in large part due to the affordability issue, but also out of boredom and lack of opportunity.
The pay in Santa Fe is not great for most people, and jobs are hard to find. It is becoming a boomer resort town as retiring CA ex-hippie RE locusts have descended, and it will probably continue to lose a lot of its local character and charm.
Worst of all, there is no water in Santa Fe, and they are in a stage 3 drought. This keeps business development away, which also keeps young families away.
I say all of this as someone who really likes Santa Fe. I just hate seeing what it has become, which is almost like a Dinseyfied version of what it once was.
Antoine Predock has a number of cool places built there of course. But he also does in Venice CA and Phoenix. I’ve seen some absolutely stunning modern houses in Santa Fe and some horrendous Vail style McMansions as well. In truth, I like the traditional adobe and Territorial style houses. They are right for the terrain. You see a lot of them done right in Taos too.
It depends on what you like to do. I’m all into the outdoors, river kayaking, rock climbing, hiking, etc. I won’t live long enough to do it all in the Santa Fe and Four Corners areas.
“It depends on what you like to do. I’m all into the outdoors,”
river kayaking, rock climbing, hiking, etc. I won’t live long enough to do it all in the Santa Fe and Four Corners areas.”
Exactly, thats what I liked about the Tucson area. The biking there is excellent. You have to be an outside person to enjoy area’s like this.
and Tucson is where I am. Couldn’t find anyone to get real in Northern AZ which was my first choice.
Wow. What a nice property.
This has been a great thread — my favorite for the past month or two. An interesting diversion and it left me with a lot to think about.
Man, could I love that Santa Fe place.
Here chip. Some Santa Fe links. The second site will send you a nice CD/DVD thingy you can run on your computer to see what Santa Fe has to offer. You have to use your mouse and click on things.
http://www.santafenm.gov/
http://www.santafe.org/
Incredulous — thanks.
My post vanished. Try this link, Chip, and request the CD/DVD, which is free.
http://www.santafe.org/
One irritation:
why is it always put as the question of:
Rural North Dakota vs. San Diego
Nowhere Wyoming vs Manhattan
Why can’t we compare places like:
San Diego vs. Houston.
Houston has basically all of the cultural activities that SD does (I would argue MORE than SD does actually), and yet Houston will cost you about 75% less for comparable housing. Sure, there’s no ocean (but the Gulf is not far away). Otherwise, SD has little to offer that Houston doesn’t have.
Or what about
Washington DC vs Chicago.
Chicago is by no means cheap, and it has it’s own bubble. But it can be up to 30-50% cheaper to live in Chicago than in DC. And I assure you that Chicago has FAR more going on than does DC (with the exception of gov’t stuff)
Or even
Phoenix vs Minneapolis
Phoenix has NOTHING going for it. It is a suburban sprawl in the middle of the desert. It’s summers are as bad as MN winters are bad. At least MN has good theatre, arts, museums, high paying salaries, and so on.
Sure, when it’s 0 here, and 75 there, do I think about Phoenix? You betcha. But when it’s 120 there with a duststorm, and 85 here, I would never switch. And then after visiting Phoenix… It’s nice enough, in a suburb sort of way but that’s really about it. Unless you are an avid golfer, I just don’t get Phoenix. Same with Las Vegas.
My point:
Many of the cities with 1-4 million folk like Minneapolis, St. Louis, Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Portland, Seattle, Denver, Charlotte, Kansas City, etc have a lot to offer. They are not cultural wastelands, and I believe that the “culture” spread has narrowed considerably between them and the big places like NYC or Boston or SF, where you can’t get tickets to the cultural things anyway.
Thus, I would argue, that the above cities have MORE than enough to offer for 99% of all of us.
Put it this way, how often do you Manhattanites REALLY go to Broadway? I bet you that I go to broadway plays more often than most New Yorkers do. Because I can afford to hop on a plane and in a few short hours be at the play, and stay for a weekend. I bet that I go to the ACT theatre in SF more than 90% of Bay Area folk, because I can afford to.
When I need something that MN doesn’t have (like warmth in winter), I simply hop on a plane for a weekend. Which is why I go to San Diego, San Francisco, Miami, Puerto Vallarta every year. (all of them, at least once)
many people are making the realization that “coastal living” is more hype than fact, and “flyover living” is more maligned than real. When I got to MN, I thought it was gonna be like the movie “fargo”. Then I realized that there is so much to do here, and I LOVE this city (in the summer), and am learning to deal with winters (still hard, but taking a week every month off makes it easier). I would NEVER go back to SF or SD again and live like I had to there. Never. If I win the lottery, sure why not. Otherwise, I’m exiled by choice.
clouseau
“San Diego vs. Houston.
Houston has basically all of the cultural activities that SD does (I would argue MORE than SD does actually), and yet Houston will cost you about 75% less for comparable housing. Sure, there’s no ocean (but the Gulf is not far away). Otherwise, SD has little to offer that Houston doesn’t have.”
I would say that San Diego deserves a premium for the weather, Houston deserves a penalty for the miserable summer weather. San Diego also has hills (desert scrub), Houston is utterly flat (but covered with trees). Both Houston and San Diego have a lot of Mexicans, but Houston doesn’t have “Illegal Alien Xing” signs.
I think SD prices should cost more. But not 5x more. That’s just stupid. It shouldn’t be even 3x more.
I’ll take that one on too having lived significant amounts of time in both places.
No, actually I won’t. You’ve heard it all before. There is no comparison. It’s more than what Lou has said, which is somewhat true. The biggest difference to me is the “attitude” of the Texans vs. the Californians. Now mind you, I was in San Diego, LA and San Fran, not in in the OC, which I agree should be severed from the rest of the state and nuked. My frame of reference is in the large law firms of California vs. TX. The ones in California were actually fun to work in. The people were funny, they were laid back, even the senior partners were “quirky.” One guy in charge of our litigation section had long hair in a ponytail and surfed every morning before coming to work. The managing partner of that firm was gay and out, and had swinging pool parties at his million dollar mansion that anyone could come to, no matter who you were in th firm.
In the Houston and Dallas firms, everyone is so tightassed and status conscious, I’m surprised they can sit down. There is unbelieveable pressure to conform to some stupid unwritten code of appearance, values, belief systems, whatever, in order to fit in.
Yes, house prices in Cali are beyond insane which is why we don’t live there anymore. Even the rents are too high. But you pay a big price to avoid that. Some days I wonder if it’s worth it.
I’ll agree that you can enjoy cultural activites in flyover country. You can also easily hop on a plane and go somewhere warm, fun etc and still be saving money.
But- I have to remind myself that it’s not just about money. Sure, we could live in Oregon for a third of the price of Orange County. The weather wouldn’t be bad, we could do plenty of hip stuff in Portland, and even travel with the money we would save. But it would take us away from our families, our kids would grow up and not know their grandparents (Like I did) and we would be sacrificing life for more money in the bank.
I understand that we could do the same thing here, spend hours on the commute, always be trying to make more money to buy a bigger house, but we choose to live simply.
Maybe one day we’ll finally leave, but I would just encourage people to think about the nonmaterial costs of packing up and moving.
It’s just a house. Don’t throw away your life for one.
I can tell you about NYC to Portland, Maine.
Been here five years and can’t believe we waited so long. We have all the culture we want in Portland by virtue of the fact that Portland has a tremendous amount for a small city and we have only a moderate appetite for culture.
If we can’t satify our cultural appetite in Portland, Boston is an hour an a half drive and NYC is an hour away on Jet Blue for $123 round trip.
The medical facilities at Maine Med are superb and many of the docs used to work in the best hospitals in NY and Boston but came up here for quality of life.
Comparable housing costs three times as much in NY. Also, many services are less expensive hear than in NY, such as a plumber, an electrician or having your lawn mowed. I’d guess about 30% cheaper than in NY.
The number of outdoor things one can do within a 30 minute radius of Portland is mind boggling.
The city is very sophisticated and has been named on “Top 10″ lists of places to live many times.
Real Estate has gone up in the last few years, but not as crazily as in places like NY.
The biggest negative is jobs, or lack thereof. But the big trend up here these days is people simply bring their own. Not so much telecommuters working for corporations, but rather entrepreneurs who have cashed in on say their 15+ years experience acquired in the rat race by starting their own home based businesses. All those years they were making say $200,000 annually in a corporation, they were also making a tidy sum for their employers. Now software allows such experts to cut out the corporation and go direct to customers with a better price. So at the end of the day, the person may be making the same $200,000 which means the customer is now getting the service at a greatly reduced price and having it rendered by a real pro, not some inexperienced person whom the corporation delegates the task to. And its this price advantage that allows the 15″ year expert to get customers - along with the network of connections that have been carefully cultivated.
Well, Portland - and I suspect many of the other desirable areas are now filling up with these ex-rat racers. They’ve given up the shot at being CEO one day, but getting to kayak at lunch or fly fish right after work can make you forget such things.
The world has changed due to the Internet and related technology and people have only started to truly absorb the implications.
Will the last person in NY please turn off the lights?
My husband does that (brings his own job). He’s a patent/trademark atty and can do it anywhere via the computer/internet. I can trade stocks from anywhere. It’s a great life.
I have a friend who is a patent attorney. I didn’t know there were that many around. He’s also an engineer, which gives him an advantage.
Great post. The gentleman who delivered my sofa a few weeks ago lives in Kansas City, and said he loves it there. He was going on and on about how much there is to do, the architecture and culture, friendly the people, etc. This is an educated guy who runs his own business and gets contracts for deliveries all over the country, so I figure he’s traveled enough to know what’s out there. I happen to love spending time in Chicago and Atlanta more than the coasts, but I like people and I find midwesterners and southerners more friendly and open to lively conversation.
I lived in the KC area for 5 years (Lawrence, actually). Compared to KC, DC is a cultural wasteland. Not a damned thing to do here, traffic is a nightmare, and housing is outrageous. I would never want to raise a kid here. In contrast, Overland Park (KC suburb) is often named one of the best places to raise kids. In fact, the KC metro area was the best place I have ever lived — I loved it there and would love to go back.
Kansas City? Talk about an overgrown cow-town. My observations were that people from Lawrence/Johnson County were some of the most uptight, snobby people I’ve ever met.
Compared to NoVa, Lawrence is a hippy commune. I can’t speak for Johnson County.
You have good points about comparing apples to apples. You compare Phoenix to Minneapolis, but I compare Phoenix to San Diego and Phoenix to LA. I like hot weather of Phoenix, but sometimes it’s nice to be where it’s cool. I go to a hotel in Hermosa Beach with an Ocean view. A clean hotel, and enjoy the environs. And I get to be among million dollar homes for a small fee. You are right in your analogies. I am the one who moves from city to city every year or so and have lived in Tucson, New Jersey, Phoenix, and Los Angeles. As for Phoenix, I am in an air conditioned apartment. We don’t seem to have the energy problems that California has. There would be a revolution if we had brownouts in the summer (maybe power will go out shortly after I finish this post, with my luck). I work 52 hour weeks and usually condense 44 hours in 4 days. So I’m walking from my car to the office way early in the morning at a bearable 89 degree temperature. I’m walking to my car from my air conditioned office at 7:30 pm when most of the heat is gone for the day. What’s to quibble about? When I take vacations, I go for the gusto. My last great vacation was in Alaska. I think we agree: You don’t have to live in Manhattan (in New York) or Manhattan Beach (In CA) to enjoy it. I lived in the south Bay in LA within 2 miles of the beach for 3 years and only went to the beach about 10 times. Too busy earning $.
Well said Clouseau1
Yes, there are many decent places to live without withering away. The coasts are so self-satisfied it is nauseating. There are great people and ideas in many places. Pri@#$! are just as common on the coasts. Why, then do homes cost 2-3 times as much there? Climate is not everything for everyone.
I grew up in rural mid-America. It was a 2-hour drive to any city bigger than about 50,000 people. During the winter we would occasionally have an entire week when the temperature never got above zero degrees (Fahrenheit). As an adult, I remember flying into Minneapolis for family Christmas one particularly cold December… my father met me at the airport and exclaimed, with a wry smile, that “we finally got a nice day.” I think it was about -15F, and that was at 2pm. It would be hard to go back to that!
Nonetheless, I agree with your point of view, clouseau. The cost of living differential among various cities is enormous, and at least in my line of work, there is little if any pay differential based on geography. In fact, I’ve been offered a few jobs where I could choose to live between two or more cities with radically different housing costs, and the salary was the same regardless of the location I selected. Given this choice, I’ll go with the lower cost of living and have more disposable income, instead of spending half of my paycheck on housing costs.
I’m also Bill in Phoenix. I chose to live here over S Cal for my current job. Yes, there are a few summer months that are unpleasant, and the air quality can be pretty marginal at times. I won’t retire here, but I’m here for work now and it’s not bad. I can go for a bike ride or a hike nearly any day of the year, although during some parts of the year I have to be careful of the *time* I choose! There’s plenty of pro and college sports available, plenty of nightlife for me, and the airport is very convienent for the times I want to take off for a weekend or a week.
if you’re gonna dream, go big…
http://www.urbandecay.ca/Files/Content/Baltimore/Baltimore/Decay/baltimore8.jpg
Wow, cereal. Where’d you get that? Scary.
There does seem to be a general bias against “flyover country” amongst the posters here. I’ve lived in rural and urban areas(currently I’m in suburban commuter hell!). The amenities of the city are nice but when the cost of living is so high it’s not easy to afford them. That combined with the traffic, long lines, and rudeness puts a lot of frustration into your day. When I was living in the middle of nowhere I wasn’t making as good a salary as I am now, yet in many ways my life was a lot easier and more fulfilling.
The problem of course is that no perfect place exists. It’s up to all of us individually to decide how to weigh the various tradeoffs inherent to each location.
Well, I live in an entirely different area than any mentioned so far. Mobile, Ala. It is a great place FOR ME. Not for everyone though. Great beaches an hour or so away. In the opposite direction, casino’s. The weather is beautiful 9-10 months of the year. Do get the edge of hurricanes occasionally (the only drawback). And there are airports close by to get away when the mood strikes.
Yes, the political and religious aspects do get kind of boring at times although Dems won in the last mayor election. We don’t have children in school here, best I understand the private ones are the way to go. I’m not a fan of UA or Auburn (went elsewhere to college) or for football either (there are some rabid fans here). Culture? My wife and I spend time every year in London and usually NY but there are a few things going on here.
Housing here - yes, there are bubbles here but prices appear to be maybe 1/4th of those in LA. My house makes those I’ve seen in LA look like hovels. Even the one shown above is not particularly impressive compared to my place. I know, sounds like bragging but really, I’m not. The LA prices are so preposterous, they’ve simply lost touch with reality.
There are nice places all over the country, you just have to take time to find them.
I’ll have to put my (possibly lone) vote for the California Coast (at least from Pismo on south to SD). I like the people (as TChic said, more ‘laid back’), the weather (I tend to like it warm and dry), and the beaches (I feel a *need* to be within a moderate drive of the ocean).
Take the Los Angeles area for instance. I know it’s cliché to say you could be surfing in the morning and skiing in the afternoon, but we *did* often play in the snow at Ice House Canyon, and on the same day take the kids to the park in sunny 75 degree weather. During the summer, the beaches were a 40-minute drive away. There is also so much to do, be it symphonies, Broadway shows, movie screenings, street festivals, museums, farmer’s markets, trips (San Diego 2-3 hours, Las Vegas 4 hours, Santa Barbara 1 1/2 hours), parks, restaurants, (dance) clubs, shopping, theme parks, etc. And let us not forget that SocCal is the ONLY place to get an authentic Tomy’s Burger (insert homer Simpson’s drooling “Auuuuuugugggghghghghghgh” here).
If you want it a little warmer and even more laid back, go south to SD. If you want it a bit cooler, and more “small town”, go north to Pismo/Arroyo Grande.
And if you want it EXPENSIVE (housing wise), you’ve come to the right place.
How about these:
http://tinyurl.com/orh7m
3221 sq ft, excluding basement for $350k
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/ocuq5
When I lived there, the town had a population of 70k and 3 brewpubs. No problems finding sushi. If there is something that you really can’t find, it’s a 30 mile drive (uncongested highway) to KC.
Well, if any of you decide to move to KC, let me know. My sister in law is realtor there. LOL