October 4, 2015

Getting Their Money Out

Continuing a discussion on the role of money-laundering and the housing bubble. LA Biz Journal. “Economists at UCLA Anderson School of Management foresee healthy growth for the nation’s economy over the next two years, but California will likely experience a slowdown in employment growth. In another essay, Economist William Yu looks at the turmoil in China’s economy and the potential implications for Los Angeles’ economy. Yu says that China’s economy is more volatile than suggested by official numbers and its economy, housing market, stock market, and currency are all in trouble.”

“The implication for Los Angeles is that China’s turmoil might reduce the growth of Los Angeles’ exports and tourism, but Chinese investment in Los Angeles real estate will persist due to better and safer expected returns in the U.S., Yu says. However, Los Angeles’ housing market, despite becoming more expensive and unaffordable, is not in a bubble and its housing prices are highly unlikely to bust this year or next.”

From CNBC. “The address 520 Park Ave. is still mostly a hole in the ground, but the sales office is now open for business and redefining the luxury price point in New York City. Luxury condominium prices already hit a record this year, according to several report on the Manhattan market. This as more units go up, but global financial markets fall. ‘Everything concerns me, but, very funny, we think we’ve seen more Chinese buyers in the last 60 days than ever before,’ said William Lie Zeckendorf, the developer behind 520 Park. ‘I think, frankly, what’s unsettled China has made the U.S. that much more appealing.’”

“‘Probably more likely now than ever. We are seeing more and more interest in New York City from across the world, we’re also seeing record-breaking prices being paid by New Yorkers,’ said Zeckendorf, who claims that the majority of his buyers are still from the tri-state area.”

“In the new development market, the price per square foot reached a record, up nearly 17 percent from a year ago, and sales surged 61 percent. ‘The sky is the limit. I was once asked could we exceed a hundred million and I think we can keep on going up,’ said Wendy Sarasohn, a real estate agent with Brown Harris Stevens in Manhattan, adding, ‘My prime buyers are from the metropolitan tri-state area, California and then international buyers.’”

From Realty Today. “‘Everything is selling fast, I don’t see how there could be a bubble. I think to some degree real estate follows the stock market, but people buy real estate to live in also, not just to invest in,’ said Howard Lorber, chairman of Douglas Elliman.”

“Also, foreign investors are still continuing to flock in Manhattan and occupy its real estate properties. One example of strong foreign investors are the Chinese. Lorber said. ‘When the Chinese stock market went down, when their real estate market went down, that didn’t stop them from buying here. It actually made them more interested in getting their money out of there and buying in New York City.’”

From Forbes. “With the crisis in Ukraine growing, it does seem that Russian investors are trying to extend their reach into many properties of London. It appears that one reason for this interest is an attempt to avoid heavy taxation on their assets by extending them overseas to London where they can invest in properties. It is projected that this new Russian invasion could last for quite a while as the flight from Russia of major investors is expected to increase over the next few years.”

“In an interesting turn of events, a London home right next to 221B Baker Street was used to launder what was estimated to be over $200 million in wrongly acquired cash. If the address sounds familiar, it was the one used for the address of literature’s most famous detective, Sherlock Holmes. In fact, the actual Baker Street address as well as much of the surrounding property was owned by someone linked to Rakhat Aliyev who is a notorious international money launderer.”

“His presence in the London area for years is an indication of foreign money being laundered in the billions of dollars which in some cases may have been turned into investment capital. A large influx of questionable money that is now thoroughly mixed with good money has managed to pump up the London property markets to the point where it is very difficult for common residents of the city to find affordable housing.”

“What’s even more interesting is that there are vast luxury apartment blocks that are mostly empty as a result. It is estimated that upwards of 75% of the new apartment blocks are totally unoccupied and that it is simply acting as a hiding place for all sorts of dirty money, money launderers, tax dodgers and even drug dealers which has helped to create an artificial residential shortage in luxury apartments.”

“It is this influx of money and new properties which is fueling further investments in new properties that will arguably sit mostly empty as well that is pushing upwards the housing bubble by creating a lack of proper housing in the city.”

The Financial Post. “A recent report by Washington think tank Global Financial Integrity reveals the fatal flaw in the world’s globalized financial architecture: It has not been accompanied by a globalized governance and regulation system. The failure to apply controls across the global economy represents a serious threat to all and is quantified in the report, sponsored by the Ford Foundation, entitled ‘Illicit Financial Flows: The Most Damaging Economic Condition Facing the Developing World.’”

“I have written extensively about the fact that Toronto and Vancouver condo markets are driven by hot money flows, that have increased housing prices for all residents to excessive levels. The same has happened in London, Sydney, Melbourne, New York and Miami.”

“In Canada, banks operating in Hong Kong. London and tax havens facilitate flows out of China and elsewhere. Compounding this is the fact that our governments — like those in Europe and the U.S. — represent gigantic secrecy havens because they don’t require disclosure of beneficial ownership.”

“The U.S. and Europe are studying laws to publish central registries of beneficial owners for public and/or law enforcement access. The G20 and G7 have each paid lip service to cracking down on tax havens but nothing substantive has occurred.”

“‘There remain powerful segments of 
the business community that want to retain abusive transfer pricing as a mechanism for shifting revenues across borders’ wrote GFI’s founder Raymond Baker ‘and some actors in the banking community that want to continue accepting suspect deposits out of other countries via weak legislation and enforcement.’”

From The Speaker. “Mansion owners in Vancouver are claiming poverty at the same levels as those suffered by the city’s homeless struggling in the Downtown Eastside. A recent study by University of B.C. geographer Dan Hiebert has revealed that wealthy business-investor immigrants to Canada — hundreds of thousands of whom have chosen to relocate to Vancouver — are ‘poor’ enough to receive social welfare.”

“The neighborhoods that report the most poverty, according to Hiebert’s report, which is based on Statistics Canada data, are the upscale Metro neighborhoods with high proportions of immigrants — mostly Chinese. In these areas over 30 percent of adults claim poverty. The houses in these areas, including Shaughnessy-Arbutus, south of Oakridge Shopping Center, and north-central Richmond — sell in the range of $2 million to $6 million Canadian.”

“Several north Richmond neighborhoods are ‘low-income’ according to tax stats. These neighborhoods are also approximately 60 percent Chinese. Hiebert’s data echoes another recent study conducted by Vancouver mathematician Jens Von Bergmann which found that 1 in 10 households declare less income than they spent on housing costs — mostly in Vancouver’s West Side.”

“Canada’s business investor program allowed foreign nationals to obtain a Canadian passport in exchange for a temporary investment of $800,000 Canadian — an amount much lower than similar programs in other countries popular with wealthy immigrants. The program was cancelled last year but the Quebec business investor program remains in use, allowing thousands to land in Quebec before relocating to Vancouver.”

“Just those immigrants who have relocated to Vancouver (current population under 2.5 million for Greater Vancouver Area) using this program amount to approximately 200,000 in the last generation. However, the number of new immigrants to Vancouver is estimated to be over 30,000 per year.”

“Critics such as Immigration Watch Canada’s Dan Murray have pointed out the political nature of the problem. Despite the breadth of the issue and the cost to Canadian taxpayers, no Canadian political party has said a word about it, despite the current federal election.”

“‘So far, none of our five major political parties has even uttered a peep about this matter,’ Murray told The Speaker. ‘The point is that several million immigrants — particularly hundreds of thousands of Investor Immigrants — have been taking huge amounts of economic and social benefits from Canada, but have been contributing next to nothing. And they have been getting away with it because the Canada Revenue Agency has not pursued these hundreds of thousands or millions of cheats.’”




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82 Comments »

Comment by Senior Housing Analyst
2015-10-03 08:55:45

Have you observed the residential towers in Manhattan at night?

Pitch black.

Comment by Ben Jones
2015-10-03 09:10:25

The New York Times said as much about a year ago. Yet somehow, there’s no problem here. Empty streets in Vancouver, suitcases full of money coming into airports. La-de-dah! I’m telling you, something or a lot of things are being distorted by all this and the PTB aren’t doing anything about it.

Comment by BKlawyer
2015-10-04 17:49:08

I feel like I woke up from a 10 year slumber and we’re back at ‘05 Everything!!!!!!!!!!! I must have dozed off or somethin

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2015-10-03 17:13:18

yes even in queens hunterspoint kondozes 7 train they have lights on but no one is home….they even put furniture out on the “patio” to fool people

Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 09:59:32

Potemkin Condos

Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 10:01:08

P.S. I saw something similar this summer in Madison, WI during a visit there for a family wedding. There were recently built luxury condo developments which, by all appearances, sat largely unoccupied. The size of the units was astonishingly large for a modest-sized college town.

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Comment by Ben Jones
2015-10-03 08:56:23

To be clear; I don’t care if Canada wants to allow immigration. I don’t care if these immigrants are collecting benefits. I don’t care if people in London can’t afford to live there. That’s those people and countries problems. What this blog is about is the housing bubble and this is where it hits the road:

‘My prime buyers are from the metropolitan tri-state area, California and then international buyers’

Yesterday posters were saying stuff like, “they’ll be OK, they own the house outright.” Who gives a crap about these foreign house buyers? It’s the rest of the market that’s at risk. We really didn’t need this group to pile into housing, but it’s happened. Like I said yesterday, money-laundering is going into real estate because the laws make it easy, appealing even.

‘I have written extensively about the fact that Toronto and Vancouver condo markets are driven by hot money flows, that have increased housing prices for all residents to excessive levels. The same has happened in London, Sydney, Melbourne, New York and Miami.’

‘In Canada, banks operating in Hong Kong. London and tax havens facilitate flows out of China and elsewhere. Compounding this is the fact that our governments — like those in Europe and the U.S. — represent gigantic secrecy havens because they don’t require disclosure of beneficial ownership.’

‘The U.S. and Europe are studying laws to publish central registries of beneficial owners for public and/or law enforcement access. The G20 and G7 have each paid lip service to cracking down on tax havens but nothing substantive has occurred.’

Comment by In Colorado
2015-10-03 09:58:15

‘The U.S. and Europe are studying laws to publish central registries of beneficial owners for public and/or law enforcement access. The G20 and G7 have each paid lip service to cracking down on tax havens but nothing substantive has occurred.’

Well, we can’t interrupt those juicy incoming cash flows, can we?

 
Comment by inchbyinch
2015-10-03 15:08:27

Downtown Los Angeles has 97 future and in process building projects, mostly Chinese and S. Korean investment money. That concerns me. While DTLA is being transformed, the market share of foreign investment isn’t good for the USA in the long run. Friends argue that it’s creating jobs for Americans. I reply, but the big $ that will be made, isn’t ours. The USA is renting from foreigners on our soil.

Comment by redmondjp
2015-10-04 00:24:29

Exactly as our global overlords want it. Blame Henry Kissinger - he’s good buddies with both The Chez (Chinese President) and Putin as well. Putin has been to Kissinger’s house several times. It’s all a big chess game with these guys.

If something happens, it’s because they either want it to or allow it.

This is all part of the plan.

Comment by inchbyinch
2015-10-04 11:01:29

redmondjp
For now, the hipsters starting careers will rent in DTLA, but eventually they will move to the suburbs, when their nesting desires kick in. An awful lot of night life venues are going to have ring up registers on less patrons. A disaster in the making. Asian $ sucking what is left of the American dream. Scary.

Kissinger was/is fingernails on a chalk board to me.

What I love about Ben’s HHB, is the great article links, that expose me to the world’s central bank shenanigans.

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Comment by Mafia Blocks
2015-10-04 11:14:47

lying.through.her.teeth.the.whole.time.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2015-10-04 12:48:21

For now, the hipsters starting careers will rent in DTLA, but eventually they will move to the suburbs, when their nesting desires kick in.

That’s a big if, considering how the marriage and birth rates for that demographic are in nose dives.

 
Comment by inchbyinch
2015-10-04 14:53:30

In Colorado
I didn’t know that. Where did you get that data point from? Interesting.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 16:41:22

Wonkblog
144 years of marriage and divorce in the United States, in one chart
By Ana Swanson
June 23, 2015

We often hear that marriage rates in the U.S. are declining. But what do trends in marriage and divorce really look like over the long run, and why?

In a new post, data tinkerer Randy Olson provides some clarity on those trends by pain-stakingly assembling and analyzing data on marriage and divorce rates going back to before 1870 from the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics.

Here is Olson’s graph of the number of marriages and divorces per every 1,000 people in America since 1867:

First, you can see that the common generalizations are true. As the chart shows, marriage rates have declined steadily since the 1980s. Today they are lower than any other time since 1870, including during the Great Depression.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 16:46:20

US births are up, ending ‘baby recession’
Jun. 17, 2015 at 5:36 AM
Mike Stobbe
AP (Associated Press)
by Taboola

It appears the baby recession really is over: Preliminary figures show U.S. births were up last year for the first time in seven years.

About 53,000 more babies were born in 2014 than the year before - a 1 percent increase. Births were up for nearly every racial and ethnic group, and there were improvements in several other key measures. Teen births hit another historic low and there were fewer cesarean sections and preterm deliveries.

“It looks like perhaps we’re seeing the turnaround that many experts have been anticipating,” said Gretchen Livingston, a birth trends expert at Pew Research Center. She was not involved in the report.

The nation has been in a baby recession since 2007 - a decline in births that experts have blamed mainly on the nation’s economy. It looked like it might have ended in 2013, with preliminary figures showing the number of births rising slightly.

But the final tally showed yet another decline.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2015-10-03 09:15:03

‘The Dalian Wanda Group, China’s largest commercial real estate developer, is closing its New York office by November 30 and will run its U.S. operations from Beijing.’

‘It wasn’t immediately clear why the Beijing-based company is leaving the Big Apple, or whether the step has any impact on its investments here. Sean Muellers, Wanda’s chief U.S. representative, will leave the firm after three years at the end of November, according to an email sent out to colleagues and business partners, a copy of which TRD obtained. “Due to a corporate reorganization, Wanda’s New York Representative Office will be closing by November 30th,” Muellers wrote. “Please note that all US investment activity going forward will be managed directly from Beijing.”

‘Wanda has $85.6 billion in assets under management and is owned by China’s richest man, Wang Jianlin. Like other major Chinese developers, the firm was hit by the recent slump in the Chinese housing market.’

Comment by scdave
2015-10-03 09:18:39

Nice research Ben….The Chinese are the poster boy for all this but I really believe it goes much deeper than just the Chinese…

“more interest in New York City from across the world”…..

Comment by Ben Jones
2015-10-03 09:30:49

Of course. The Russians have been huge in it. In London, you’ll probably find more speculators from Singapore than China. But Singapore has been over-run by Chinese speculators, so it’s all interconnected.

Comment by scdave
2015-10-03 09:40:34

so it’s all interconnected ??

Yep….And feeding on itself….

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Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-03 09:41:41

“all US investment activity going forward will be managed directly from Beijing”

bj needs to slow the outflow of money.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2015-10-03 09:17:36

‘International companies that listed shares in Hong Kong to highlight their ties with China are finding what once was a bragging right is now a burden.’

‘The city’s 20 biggest firms domiciled outside Hong Kong and the mainland dropped an average 27 percent this year through Wednesday, versus a 12 percent decline in the Hang Seng Index. Macau casino operators and Prada SpA, an Italian handbag maker, have tumbled as China’s economy slowed and the government discouraged extravagant spending. Glencore Plc, the Swiss commodities group run by Ivan Glasenberg, was down 72 percent even after a record rally on Wednesday.’

‘Prada and Glencore both gained Hong Kong listings in 2011, when a flurry of overseas companies sold shares in the city to tap investor enthusiasm for what was then the world’s fastest-growing major economy. These days, connections with China are a liability as the country heads for its weakest expansion since 1990.’

‘Prada’s slide has dragged shares of the Milan-based firm 25 percent below the initial public offering price. Sales of high-end items including jewelry dropped in 17 of the 18 months through July in Hong Kong as a Communist Party campaign against graft and largesse put a damper on cross-border shopping sprees. The six biggest listed Macau casino operators lost half their market value this year through Wednesday, with Wynn Macau Ltd. sinking 60 percent.’

“With the economy weakening and the anti-corruption clampdown in China, people aren’t spending as much,” said Andrew Clarke, director of trading at Mirabaud Asia Ltd., a Hong Kong brokerage. “Macau casinos and luxury-goods businesses have both been affected.”

Remember this one:

‘what once was a bragging right is now a burden’

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2015-10-03 09:21:53

‘A Communist party theme park built to celebrate the anniversary of the Red Army’s takeover of China has sparked scorn and ridicule among Chinese internet users.’

‘The 300,000 sq m attraction opened on Monday in the city of Wuhan before Thursday’s national day holiday marking the foundation of the People’s Republic of China on 1 October 1949.’

“What a waste of good land,” one critic wrote on Weibo, the Twitter-like social media site.’

“They don’t believe in it themselves and yet they want the public to believe it,” complained another.’

“It should be called the brainwashing theme park,” wrote a third.’

‘So-called “red tourism” has made a comeback under Xi with towns and cities across China seeking to cash in on their role in the Communist party’s history. Wuhan authorities are planning to build five theme parks in tribute to Xi’s 85 million-member party, the local government website says.’

‘Online critics have vowed to vote with their feet. “These kind of brainwashing projects are a complete waste of taxpayers’ money,” vented one angry Weibo user.’

Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-03 09:44:12

“…Xi’s 85 million-member party,…”

That’s a lot of party insiders!

Comment by rms
2015-10-03 17:27:56

A guy could drain a lot of phasers, and they’d keep coming.

Comment by aqius
2015-10-05 00:02:48

all those “cones” advancing on the “yanks” . . .
I demand you recite the “E. Plebnista” to prove your loyalty!

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Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-03 09:44:40

ghost theme parks?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-03 09:47:51

“These kind of brainwashing projects are a complete waste of taxpayers’ money,”

That comment recalls to mind AlbqDan’s abject failure to brainwash HBB readers into believing the hogwash he posted about the supposedly ever robust Chinese economy.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2015-10-03 10:03:55

What that theme park needs are some rides!

Pirates of the Central Committee
The Haunted Stock Exchange
The Toxic Water Jungle Cruise
It’s A Communist World After All

feel free to add to the list

Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-03 10:36:43

Fangnuland

Comment by In Colorado
2015-10-04 12:49:21

The Fang Nu Tiki Room?

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Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 08:48:49

“The implication for Los Angeles is that China’s turmoil might reduce the growth of Los Angeles’ exports and tourism, but Chinese investment in Los Angeles real estate will persist due to better and safer expected returns in the U.S., Yu says.”

With 82 million party insiders trying to leave China like rats jumping off a sinking ship, it’s reasonable to expect the all-cash Chinese investor mania to continue on the West Coast for a while longer. However, eventually Stein’s Law will apply:

Anything that cannot continue forever will end.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-03 09:29:22

Housing bubble denial is deja vu all over again.

Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-03 09:36:41

BloombergBusiness
Fed’s Fischer Sees Few Obvious Bubbles in U.S. Economy
Christopher Condon & Craig Torres
October 2, 2015 — 10:30 AM PDT
Updated on October 2, 2015 — 11:56 AM PDT
U.S. Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Stanley Fischer.
Photographer: Andrew Harrer/Bloomberg

Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Stanley Fischer said he doesn’t see immediate risks of financial bubbles in the U.S., while raising concerns that the central bank’s policy tool kit to deal with such occurrences is limited and untested.

“Banks are well capitalized and have sizable liquidity buffers, the housing market is not overheated and borrowing by households and businesses has only begun to pick up after years of decline or very slow growth,” the Fed’s No. 2 policy maker said in a speech Friday in Boston. Still, he warned that “potential shifts of activity away from more regulated to less regulated institutions could lead to new risks.”

Fischer, 71, who leads a committee at the U.S. central bank charged with identifying asset-price bubbles and other risks to financial stability, also said he sees some scope for using interest-rate policy to combat potential threats, but doing so could come with “significant costs.”

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-03 09:46:20

“However, Los Angeles’ housing market, despite becoming more expensive and unaffordable, is not in a bubble…”

Just keep saying that over and over.

Comment by Rental Watch
2015-10-03 11:27:06

Housing affordability (yes, I know it is skewed by low interest rates) in LA County:

Hit a low of 18% in May 1991, then housing downturn
Hit a high of 41% in Feb 1994, then housing started back up
Was primarily in the 30’s and occasionally hit low 40’s until 2003, when it dipped into the 20’s.
Hit a low of 9% during the bubble in 2007, then the housing crash occurred.
Hit a high of 51% in 2012,then housing started back up.
Is now at 30%.

I know it sounds insane, but the average in LA County from 1991 to 2015 is 32%.

Clearly interest rates going up would change these calculations, but if this is a “bubble” it’s not nearly as extreme as 2007.

Comment by Mafia Blocks
2015-10-03 11:37:02

“Affordability” is a Realtor marketing metric.

The reality is LA county housing prices are 300% higher than long term historic trend.

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Comment by Shrimpsaladsandwich
2015-10-03 17:33:41

And the definition of affordability keeps changing so comparisons are invalid.

 
 
Comment by taxpayers
2015-10-04 09:44:32

No one here thinks the echo is as intense as 06

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Comment by Mafia Blocks
2015-10-04 18:06:29

crushing.housing.losses.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-03 11:38:38

Speaking of housing bubbles…

Markets & Economy
China’s key risk: It’s housing, not stocks
September 18, 2015
Part of Vanguard’s Global Macro Matters research series

Understanding the current—and potentially future—state of the global economy helps investors put market movements into context. To promote that understanding, researchers from Vanguard’s Investment Strategy Group examine the economic trends that impact the investing environment in this new series. Below is their latest insights into Global Macro Matters. Download a copy.

The stock market isn’t most concerning

Much of the recent volatility in China’s stock market stems from renewed concerns about an economic hard landing (growth below 4%). In our view, a hard-landing scenario is less worrisome than an outright recession (negative growth). The probability of a recession is not trivial, because of the long-term and structural nature of the slowdown. Given this, we expect that China will marginally miss its stated 2015 growth target of 7%.

This is a pivotal time for the country as it transitions from a manufacturing-based economy to a service-based one. As such, concerns over China’s economy should persist for years. Policy actions that address economic fundamentals should be more effective—and welcomed by long-term investors—than ones that react to stock market activity.

Housing is a bigger economic risk

Despite elevated volatility in China’s stock market, only about 9% of household wealth is invested in equities, versus 36% in the United States. The real estate market, on the other hand, is the largest single source of Chinese household wealth. Home values across China have risen 279% since 2002 and, by some measures, seem inflated in more than a few cities, as illustrated by a 457% home-value increase in Shanghai. For China to improve its economic outlook, the housing market needs to stabilize.

Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-03 12:44:25

China GDP is totally useless as it is a made up number.

One thing to note about GDP in general though is that it does not go down as prices collapse. “Same prices” is the trick. We are reading that China’s raw material producers can not even pay the interest on their loans and there are massive layoffs. It is not growth, it is something else.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-03 09:31:16

“Economists at UCLA Anderson School of Management foresee healthy growth for the nation’s economy over the next two years, but California will likely experience a slowdown in employment growth. In another essay, Economist William Yu looks at the turmoil in China’s economy and the potential implications for Los Angeles’ economy. Yu says that China’s economy is more volatile than suggested by official numbers and its economy, housing market, stock market, and currency are all in trouble.”

It’s great to see the experts catching on to what we have been discussing here for years already.

Comment by Senior Housing Analyst
2015-10-03 09:36:56

And to think people pay for their flawed methodology driven analysis.

 
 
Comment by Hargert
2015-10-03 09:55:52

Lets see property is selling quickly for every higher prices with nothing causing such a rise other than the fact that prices are rising. Nope no bubble nothing to see here.

Comment by Senior Housing Analyst
2015-10-03 10:04:48

Are these mouthpieces to be believed?

 
Comment by scdave
2015-10-03 10:33:34

with nothing causing such a rise other than the fact that prices are rising ??

Supply/Demand….I really does revert back to that simple equation every time…Now with that said, the demand side is being “goosed” with extremely low borrowing cost and deflation in other asset categories…

Comment by Mafia Blocks
2015-10-03 11:07:55

Remember…. there are 25 million excess, empty and defaulted houses and housing demand is at 20 year lows. See for yourself.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qRBemWyulY0/VNGrDCBXzOI/AAAAAAAAiMA/jdA2RQkiNDc/s1600/MBAFeb42014.PNG

Comment by Rental Watch
2015-10-03 16:42:46

I’m confused, has the demand side been “goosed”? It doesn’t look like low borrowing costs have resulted in more people borrowing than pre-bubble times.

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Comment by scdave
2015-10-04 08:55:48

I’m confused, has the demand side been “goosed” ??

These long term rates we have had for the last couple of years are big time fuel…Not just for housing but also for all the development you & I see here in the valley…Thats what I mean by “goosed”…

 
 
 
Comment by Hargert
2015-10-03 11:21:30

My point being that there is no demand other than the demand from a mania. It is not that there are not enough houses for people to buy or that costs are increasing for materials or labor. It is not that there are lots of new good paying jobs so people can afford the higher prices. When you have to game the system to let 3-4 families pool their money to quallify for a loan and keep adding programs to let people with low credit and no money down get in to keep numbers up that is a bubble. When people are finding crowd scource funding to “invest” in properties to make a easy 7-20 percent return when rates are at all time lows that is a bubble.
I know lots of people want to think it will be different this time. The truth is unless wages come up there is a limit to what games you can play to keep these markets going every up. It will end at some point, the only question is when.

Comment by Mafia Blocks
2015-10-03 11:35:03

Understood but to clarify…

-Materials cost today are what they were in 2001

-Organic housing demand is at 20 year lows

-wages are what they were in 2001

It’s quite simply really. Deflation is raging and demand for all materials is collapsing.

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Comment by scdave
2015-10-03 11:36:27

When you have to game the system to let 3-4 families pool their money to qualify for a loan ??

How is that “gaming the system”….

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Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-03 12:47:45

It is the GSEs that are gaming, to levitate the market.

 
Comment by scdave
2015-10-03 12:58:48

It is the GSEs that are gaming, to levitate the market ??

You could make the argument that the GSE’s have lending policies that allow a broader pool of potential buyers but “gaming”….”Levitating” ??

The levitating is coming for many reasons but I would think that the GSE lending standards are a small part of it….They are in the business of lending money…Wether the prices are up or down they are still just lenders…Prices are set by willing buyers and willing sellers…

Gaming ?? Please explain how the GSE’s game the system…

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-03 15:16:35

We’ve read on here that they are including income from Grandma and Junior to let people qualify. I think Grandma and Junior will not stick around to see the 30 year loan paid off.

I think they are stuffing the mortgage pipeline with time bombs. If that isn’t a game, what do we call it? A joke? Slow motion terrorism? You and I would be paying for this travesty down the line, if we were younger.

 
Comment by scdave
2015-10-04 09:02:34

including income from Grandma and Junior to let people qualify
??

Nothing new here…This type of underwriting has be in place for many, many decades….I bought my first piece of real estate with my mother and father on title and the loan with me…If I defaulted, my mother & father would have to step in or their credit would be dragged through the mud which they would never have allowed….

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-04 09:26:01

I know about co-signing. This is different. Did the bank add your dad’s income to yours to see if you could afford the payments?

 
Comment by scdave
2015-10-04 09:39:05

Did the bank add your dad’s income to yours to see if you could afford the payments ??

Yes….

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-04 09:53:59

Interesting.

It is nevertheless a subprime time bomb, sponsored by the FedGov.

 
Comment by scdave
2015-10-04 10:06:15

It is nevertheless a subprime time bomb ??

Maybe but it will not be because of underwriting…Underwriting standards are very tough….There is a criminal aspect to skirting the guidelines now (Dodd/Frank)…Even by a tiny bit…Just ask a mortgage broker thats been around for awhile how the underwriting guidelines compare to 10 years ago…

If there is a time bomb, IMO it will be with valuations…They have been and continue to be set on the cost of funds that are historically low…Their could be a reset coming if we get back to rates that are significantly higher…

 
Comment by Mafia Blocks
2015-10-04 11:12:36

3% down payments aren’t “tough”. 3% down is sub-prime by definition.

 
Comment by aqius
2015-10-05 00:18:25

your comparing apples to oranges regarding the whole
co-signer thing:

I agree that today’s underwriting standards are playing with dynamite because prior co-signers were considered a backup to the primary, that had to qualify based on separate incomes, not joint.

if the original maker defaulted, the co- signer had to be able to carry the loan on their own income, w/established credit confirming ability & stability.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 10:04:40

Hargert, many thanks for your reality-based posts. Keep ‘em coming!

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Comment by inchbyinch
2015-10-04 15:36:06

“Goosed” with Blackstone and Colony holding properties off the market as rentals, which I believe has another 2 years out of the 5 total years, the banks, FRB, and other PTB, made a deal with them. Supply is being goosed in that way as well. Those homes were the REOs the banks had on their books. I’ve seen a few trickle into the MLS, when their rental market rate wasn’t being met. Nicely renovated, might I add.

Comment by Mafia Blocks
2015-10-04 16:06:58

Turning over a new leaf are we?

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Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 16:47:22

Sounds like collusion. Is it legal?

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Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 16:50:01

Speaking of the legality of government operations…

Economy Central Banks
WSJ PRO
Questions About Leak at Federal Reserve Escalate to Insider-Trading Probe
Firm at center of probe says it is a media organization with special legal protections
An investigation into a leak of sensitive information focuses on a confidential 2012 meeting of senior Fed officials. Here, the Marriner S. Eccles Federal Reserve building in Washington, D.C.
Photo: Andrew Harrer/Bloomberg News
By Aruna Viswanatha, Kate Davidson, Brody Mullins and Christopher M. Matthews
Updated Oct. 1, 2015 10:57 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON—A high-profile investigation into a leak of sensitive information from the Federal Reserve in 2012 has escalated into an insider-trading probe led by a key market surveillance agency and federal prosecutors in Manhattan, according to people familiar with the matter.

But the firm at the center of the probe, Medley Global Advisors, has thrown up a roadblock by claiming a novel defense: It says it is a media organization entitled to special protections under the law, the people said.

Federal prosecutors in the Southern District of New York are focusing on the information leak, while the Commodity Futures Trading Commission is looking into whether anyone violated insider-trading rules in 2012, when Medley disclosed to its clients details about the Fed’s plans for further economic stimulus, according to people familiar with the matter.

A spokesman for Medley said the firm “reserves complete editorial freedom in its newsletters, an integral principle for any serious news-gathering organization.” He said, “Medley’s journalists are focused on providing their readers deep insight,” and that the firm’s work is “made available to all subscribers and has a global audience from Kansas City to Madrid to Tokyo.”

The Fed declined to comment on the investigation and insider-trading probe.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2015-10-03 12:53:17

There will be hell to pay in China someday when the screwed-over masses turn on their oligarch betters who didn’t manage to flee the country with their ill-gotten loot.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/why-china-is-an-la-827975

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2015-10-04 06:39:28

A reader sent this in:

‘Property rises might be taking a breather after a year of superheated growth, but one investment banker has bad news for most aspiring home owners: Australian house prices will keep getting higher and the government will do nothing to prick the bubble because the country simply can’t afford it.’

‘And any hint of instability in China could send a wave of new money into the Australian market, says Saxo Capital Asia macro strategist Kay Van-Petersen. “There is a lot of talk about Chinese money, but you guys haven’t seen anything yet.”

“The government has to try and talk it down and say it’s inflated, but at the same time all they can try and do is control the ongoing growth as best they can,” Mr Van-Petersen said. “If they wanted to prick it, they could, but Australia simply cannot afford to.”

‘New Zealand and Singapore have enacted strong policies to force adjustments in housing markets and Mr Van-Petersen said Australia could easily deflate the bubble by pulling the stamp duty tax charged to foreign buyers from properties of more than $15 million to, say, $1.5 million. But the property market is one of the few areas of the economy that is growing adequately as terms of trade plummet and mining companies shed value because commodity prices are falling in light of a slowing China.’

“Australia can’t afford for property to have a hard landing. If housing prices bust, the banks will get hit hard. And then what is there? It’s in everyone’s interests right now.”

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/australia-cant-afford-to-burst-housing-bubble-as-wave-of-chinese-money-looms-20151001-gjysne.html#ixzz3nbeAQEd1

Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 08:52:40

‘New Zealand and Singapore have enacted strong policies to force adjustments in housing markets and Mr Van-Petersen said Australia could easily deflate the bubble by pulling the stamp duty tax charged to foreign buyers from properties of more than $15 million to, say, $1.5 million. But the property market is one of the few areas of the economy that is growing adequately as terms of trade plummet and mining companies shed value because commodity prices are falling in light of a slowing China.’

This most surely will eventually bite them in the ass.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-04 09:22:38

“It’s in everyone’s interests right now”

Only in the interest of speculators and bankers. That isn’t “everyone”.

In a way, the Chinese are exporting their ghost cities.

Comment by inchbyinch
2015-10-04 12:27:07

DTLA (Downtown Los Angeles)might just become one of those ghost cities. 97 in process or completed building projects is a lot of building. Sure it’s nice to see a cleaned up DTLA, but the future is my concern.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 09:01:01

“His presence in the London area for years is an indication of foreign money being laundered in the billions of dollars which in some cases may have been turned into investment capital. A large influx of questionable money that is now thoroughly mixed with good money has managed to pump up the London property markets to the point where it is very difficult for common residents of the city to find affordable housing.”

Housing in the financial capital of the world is inflated by dirty money representing the proceeds of intentional criminal activity. Is this a recent development, and is the British government turning a blind eye?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 09:06:55

“The neighborhoods that report the most poverty, according to Hiebert’s report, which is based on Statistics Canada data, are the upscale Metro neighborhoods with high proportions of immigrants — mostly Chinese. In these areas over 30 percent of adults claim poverty. The houses in these areas, including Shaughnessy-Arbutus, south of Oakridge Shopping Center, and north-central Richmond — sell in the range of $2 million to $6 million Canadian.”

How can impoverished families afford $2+ million dollar houses? Makes no sense whatever!

Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-04 10:02:10

“Poverty” is usually taken as a measure of income insufficient to live in a certain level of comfort. It has nothing to do with how much money you might have arrived with or sunk into a RE investment.

Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 10:09:16

I was a little confused by the story; are the new Chinese residents truly impoverished because they sank all of their liquid wealth into a $2+ million real estate investment, or have they merely figured out how to feign poverty in order to qualify for Canadian government welfare assistance?

Comment by Blue Skye
2015-10-04 10:48:27

The author thinks it is mansion owners.

“Mansion owners in Vancouver are claiming poverty at the same levels as those suffered by the city’s homeless struggling in the Downtown Eastside.”

“Many of these families actually do have high incomes — a phenomenon in Canada known as “astronauts” because the husband usually works overseas while the wife and children live in Canada — but these incomes are not reported…”

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Comment by Professor Bear
2015-10-04 10:58:48

“Many of these families actually do have high incomes — a phenomenon in Canada known as “astronauts” because the husband usually works overseas while the wife and children live in Canada — but these incomes are not reported…”

You’d think it would be easy enough for the Canadian government to root out this kind of fraud. How about prison time for Chinese immigrant scam artists who defraud the system?

 
Comment by aqius
2015-10-05 00:35:02

Professor: seriously, THINK about your question. Why would Canadian Govt Officials eagerly jail the golden geese…?

It’s not like the American Govt has led the way by prosecuting any Wall Street bankers from 2008.

face it: It’s not going to happen.

Big money buys Big government. You can’t fix a corrupt system by changing out a few Senators/Congressmen / Presidents every so often. There are just too many aggressive evil greedy people pushing so much damn money it can’t be stopped.

won’t play ball? I’d suggest watching out for that grassy knoll.

 
Comment by rms
2015-10-05 01:19:40

“won’t play ball? I’d suggest watching out for that grassy knoll.”

Just imagine drug-addled JFK in the digital age. No need to be taken-out when his e-mails, tweets, visa purchases and web surfing habits could be used to leverage him.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Senior Housing Analyst
2015-10-04 15:21:22

McKinney, TX Housing Prices Crater 7% YoY; 2008 Housing Bust Resumes

http://www.movoto.com/mckinney-tx/market-trends/

 
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