December 28, 2016

The Good News Is You Can Get A Deal Now

A report from MarketWatch. “The number of investors who flipped a house in the first nine months of 2016 reached the highest level since 2007. About one-third of the deals were financed with debt, a percentage not seen in eight years. Now Wall Street, which was nearly felled by real-estate forays almost a decade ago, is getting back into the action. A number of banks are arranging financing vehicles for house-flippers, who buy and sell homes in a matter of months. ‘The floodgates have opened,’ says Eduardo Axtle, a 35-year-old former telecom entrepreneur in Oakland, Calif., who has taken out about 50 home loans over the past five years. These days, he is bombarded with unsolicited emails from brokers offering him access to financing, and fellow flippers invite him to get-togethers.”

“Some borrowers say they have been offered debt in excess of the value of the home, also known as the loan-to-value ratio. Others say some lenders are requiring bank statements to get a loan, but not standard documentation such as a W-2 tax earnings statement. George Geronsin, 36, a Southern California real-estate agent and house-flipper who has been in the business since 2008, said he recently sold the majority of the homes he was working on and is sitting on cash ‘until the next big correction’ in the housing market. ‘Anybody and everybody is getting into the business of house-flipping — that’s when you know it’s the end of the rope,’ said Mr. Geronsin.”

The Citizen Times in North Carolina. “Local renters weary from hunting for an apartment they can afford may now get some relief. Asheville and Buncombe County have eased out of a housing crisis, according to a newly released report commissioned by the city. The main change has come in market-rate apartments. While the area had a severe shortage on its hands in 2014, there are now 4,722 units proposed or under construction in the county. That could actually tip the scales to the point the vacancy rate exceeds 10 percent, said Patrick Bowen, whose Ohio-based company Bowen National Research recently updated its 2014 apartment report for the city.”

“If that happens, rents will go down, but apartment complexes may start failing. ‘Wouldn’t a renter like to see rents go down? Yeah, they would,’ Bowen said, but failing apartment buildings could cause a spiral of bad things, including loss of home values.”

From Bloomberg on New York. “The luxury Manhattan co-op, a longtime sign of real estate prestige and exclusivity in New York, may be losing its appeal. Blame a glut of newly built high-end condos. Contracts for co-op apartments priced at $4 million or more fell 25 percent this year from 2015, as buyers with means opted for newer homes with more amenities and fewer restrictive rules, according to a report published by luxury brokerage Olshan Realty Inc. It was the biggest annual decline since the firm started tracking luxury co-op contracts a decade ago.”

“‘The data right now has a big, red circle on it that says this sector is in trouble,’ Donna Olshan, president of the firm that bears her name, said in an interview. Next week, Jacky Teplitzky, a luxury broker with Douglas Elliman Real Estate, plans to list an Upper East Side co-op with an asking price that’s slightly below its market value — a way to stand out in a sea of other co-op apartments competing against the wave of shiny new condos. ‘The good news,’ Teplitzky said, ‘is that you can get a very good deal in a co-op now.’”

From The Rapidian in Michigan. “‘I’m watching strangers go in and out of my home,’ said Yvonne Johnson, looking out the window. While we talked at a neighbor’s house, Johnson’s home was filled with realtors and prospective buyers, there for a typical Sunday open house. It’s been a common sight on her block in the last ten months. The home, located near the newly desirable Wealthy Street corridor, is being sold to avoid foreclosure. Yet Johnson thought she was part of a protected low-income housing program.”

“‘I was under the impression that I was part of a home ownership program,’ Johnson said. ‘The house that I live in was built in 1998 by a grant through HUD. The city of Grand Rapids built homes in certain areas to raise the property values. At that time I understood that I would pay my part of it in ten years, because of the HUD grant involved.’ When the ten years passed, she didn’t receive notice, and so she kept paying. She’s been paying for 18 years total.”

“A look at Johnson’s documents reveals that the Grand Rapids Housing Commission (GRHC) applied a $19,000 down payment for the $65,000 home, contingent upon Johnson living in the home for a number of years. What wasn’t clear to Johnson was that the rest of the loan would be a typical mortgage with Mercantile Bank at the current interest rate, around eight percent in the late 1990s.”

“Most of all, though Johnson had been paying for years and hoped that would ensure her home ownership, that wasn’t to be the case. The bank said her home’s entire loan was over $150,000, and she still owed almost $30,000. Johnson said she was never told that the loan was going to amount to that much. Though she used to pay ahead on her mortgage, now that she’s struggling with a recent job loss and less reliable transportation, her options are running out.”

“She would like to move on her terms, and to a comparable place. ‘Now I’ve had such a bad experience, I just want to move. If all this hadn’t happened, I would have liked to stay. I raised my kids here. But after two years of trying to get answers, I’m just so drained and tired.’”

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Comment by Ben Jones
2016-12-28 09:21:19

A comment to the last article:

‘How did a 65,000 home end up with a 150,000 mortgage?’

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 09:23:27

The power of stupid people acting in large groups?

Comment by 2banana
2016-12-28 09:33:02

Because taxpayers guarantee almost all loans and today’s banks don’t eat their bad loans…?

Comment by Ben Jones
2016-12-28 09:36:30

Speaking of that, from the MarketWatch article:

‘In recent months, big banks, including Wells Fargo & Co., Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. have started extending credit lines to companies that specialize in lending to home-flippers. Earlier this month, J.P. Morgan agreed to lend $60 million to 5Arch Funding, an Irvine, Calif., company that caters to flippers, according to people familiar with the deal.’

‘Trying to win business, big banks in the past few weeks have flown executives to Southern California — where much of the house-flipping activity is occurring — to organize funding deals, people familiar with the meetings say.’

‘Home prices across the country are rising, reaching records not seen since before the 2008 financial crisis.’

‘Big banks are offering lenders credit lines ranging from $5 million to $150 million, with interest rates between 3.5% and 6%, say the people familiar with the deals.’

‘The banks say they are shielded from major losses because their loan deals are backed by pools of securitized loans, sheltering them from a potential bankruptcy of the lender. In the 5Arch deal with J.P. Morgan, for example, the bank securitized 150 5Arch loans in the $60 million bond, and then lent out a portion of that amount back to 5Arch in what operates like a credit line. The bank can also sell pieces of the resulting bond to other investors if it chooses.’

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2016-12-28 09:52:04

“The banks say they are shielded from major losses because their loan deals are backed by pools of securitized loans…”

Where do we go to short the market for this go-round? (The Bigger Short)

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Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 13:33:27

Gotta love Too Big To FAIL!

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 07:44:25

As long as the loans are federally guaranteed and the banks are too-big-to-fail, why not extend credit lines to flippers?

Heads-we-win, tails-you-lose…

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Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 15:05:24

Serious questions:

1) Is Uncle Sam handing out federally guaranteed loans that enable flippers to drive housing U.S. residential housing prices to levels that Joe6pack can’t afford?

2) Is this even legal?

Comment by rms
2016-12-28 18:17:39

“The people moving in [usually white] are getting the jobs at the coffee shops and other businesses on Wealthy Street. The residents who were already here [people of color] — they’re not getting those jobs.”

Jim Crow, or is someone else more punctual and pleasant?

Comment by oxide
2016-12-28 12:38:54

A $65K house with a $19K down payment at 8% interest is a total of $120K not including taxes and insurance. So there’s something wonky about the docs. The article also laments the $70K in profit that the bank made. Yes, ma’am, that’s what a mortgage is, especially at 8%. Instead of refinancing, she should have sold the house and bought another at the lower interest rates.

Comment by junior_kai
2016-12-28 15:50:54

Same way kids are charged 150K for a college education worth, at best - if STEM, 65K. To quote the legendary hd74man, the whole world has gone fookin’ mad.

Comment by In Colorado
2016-12-28 17:00:38

Only if they go to a private school. It can still be done for as little as 20K at a State U.

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 17:58:28

All students enrolling at the CSU pay the systemwide Tuition Fee which is currently $5,472 per academic year for undergraduate students enrolling in more than 6 units per term and $3,174 for undergraduates enrolling in 6 or fewer units.Oct 24, 2016

grants for poor kids

city college is free if you are poor.

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Comment by Ben Jones
2016-12-28 09:25:46

‘there are now 4,722 units proposed or under construction in the county. That could actually tip the scales to the point the vacancy rate exceeds 10 percent, said Patrick Bowen, whose Ohio-based company Bowen National Research recently updated its 2014 apartment report for the city.’

‘If that happens, rents will go down, but apartment complexes may start failing. ‘Wouldn’t a renter like to see rents go down? Yeah, they would,’ Bowen said, but failing apartment buildings could cause a spiral of bad things, including loss of home values.’

Here’s the thing Patrick: it doesn’t matter what anybody wants. If they over did it, and we’re there, prices are gonna fall. Not only that but pensions that bought into your hype will lose money.

Another one bites the dust. How many SHORTAGE alarms have we heard about Asheville the past few years?

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 09:54:31

“How many SHORTAGE alarms have we heard about Asheville the past few years?”

A lot. From time to time I follow real estate in that area, having given some consideration to moving there at some point. But then I began to notice a lot of complaints about congestion, and cost of living in the area. It is true that there were a lot of mournful comments from locals being priced out of their own area if they were renters. Couldn’t find work that would allow them to pay the rents that were being asked. And you should have seen what was being asked for some real crap shacks.

This was followed by announcements of new apartment complexes being planned and built. It seemed to me they already had a number of these complexes, what I call rabbit warren apartments. Blank faced three and four story buildings, cookie cutter apartments. You can live in one of those apartments in Florida. Or Connecticut. They are not conducive to life in Western North Carolina. Not even a porch or patio, in some case.

Anyway the capper for me was the wildfire situation this past autumn. A formerly lush area (subtropical rainforest) was having drought problems. Lots of complaints about air quality. Gives new meaning to “Smoky Mountains”.

I also saw some online comment exchanges between newcomers and locals. Lots of resentment from the locals, and smug, cat-that-ate-the-canary responses from newcomers. “We’re here, get used to it, sorry you can’t find a place to live”.

Anyway, most people who couldn’t hang on, have moved on. And THEN they ratchet up the “workforce” housing construction.

Comment by whirlyite
2016-12-28 11:04:43

Sounds a lot like the nation’s soon to be third largest city!

Comment by Sean
2016-12-28 13:21:07

IMO, Asheville has the most smug baby boomers I’ve ever ran across. The “I live here and you wished you lived here” mentality. Very entitled, very stuck up. Beautiful place, but it’s like living in a pharmaceutical commercial with all of those active seniors.

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 14:24:28

I will be curious to find out if this past autumn’s wildfires were an anomaly or if they return next year. If so, the bloom will really be off the rose for that area. And of course you will hear “Global Warming, Global Warming!”

Uh-uh. Like Florida, too many people in a sensitive environment. Way too many people. And not only that, they jammed ‘em in without doing anything about the roads and infrastructure.

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Comment by taxpayer
2016-12-28 09:59:14

3 miles from asheville it’s teeth optional- central florida action

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 10:20:54

It was teeth optional BEFORE the halfback Floridians moved there. These are hardened Appalachian natives, the sort of people the libs in the area like to pizz on, while fawning over their pet illegals. They live in the “hollers”.

These are the people who actually materialize from the woods when some lib is stuck in a ditch by the side of the road after sliding off the black ice. The libs find it ever so quaint.

What they don’t find so quaint is that the locals work on God’s time. Are ya snowed in with yer fancy house on the side of the mountain? Well, we’ll git to it, sooner or later.

Lol, I think I posted about this before, I ran into some folks who thought they’d do the Florida halfback thing and moved to Murphy. And then they moved back here when they realized that it wasn’t so easy to get around. One thing they told me, if you move to Western North Carolina, DO NOT live in a house with a sloped asphalt driveway.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 10:34:39

Many of those halfbacks are probably not at all liberal. I doubt that the halfback Republicans are less likely to make fun of the toothless natives. In fact, they’re probably more likely to blame them for their poverty because they’re believers in the Just World Hypothesis.

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Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 11:20:54

At first I wuz gonna disagree with you, but I have to admit, you are probably right on this one. The retiree halfbacks tend to cluster outside of Asheville in the Hendersonville-Flat Rock area. Whether they’re more likely to blame them for their poverty, I’m not sure. They blame them for not getting their butts in gear when they want their driveways plowed, though.

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 11:40:42

Judging from the reactions of the media and Hillary voters, the Just World Hypothesis is not unique to Republicans or conservatives.

They may have found out it’s not a Just World, but they can’t accept it. Cognitive diss.

Comment by 2banana
2016-12-28 09:31:55



Pending Home Sales Tumble As Surging Mortgage Rates Paralyze Housing Market
Zero hedge - December 28, 2016

According to the NAR’s perpetually cheerful chief economist, Lawrence Yun, the ongoing supply shortages and the surge in mortgage rates took a small bite out of pending sales in November. “The budget of many prospective buyers last month was dealt an abrupt hit by the quick ascension of rates immediately after the election,” he said. “Already faced with climbing home prices and minimal listings in the affordable price range, fewer home shoppers in most of the country were successfully able to sign a contract.”

It gets worse: with 2017 at the doorstep, Yun says higher borrowing costs somewhat cloud the outlook for the housing market. This was evident in NAR’s most recent HOME survey, which found that confidence amongst renters about now being a good time to buy has diminished since the beginning of the year1. The good news, according to Yun, is that the impact of higher rates will be partly neutralized by stronger wage growth as a result of the 2 million net new job additions expected next year.

“Healthy local job markets amidst tight supply means many areas will remain competitive with prices on the rise. Those rushing to lock in a rate before they advance even higher will probably have few listings to choose from,” said Yun. “Some buyers will have to expand the area of their home search or be forced to delay in order to save a little more money for their down payment.”

Comment by Apartment 401
2016-12-28 09:34:51

Don’t move to Denver, you’ll be really disappointed if you do.

Comment by 2banana
2016-12-28 09:42:42

You will be…

If you have an average income and try to buy a house…

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2016-12-28 09:45:54

What is the current population of the Denver metro area these days?

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 10:00:52

US Population growth is at all time record lows and falling.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 10:11:34

The record lows were in the 1930s.

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Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 10:26:04


Comment by phony scandals
2016-12-28 11:36:05


Are you sure?

I think Mighty got his degree from Drexel University where I believe he was mentored by George Ciccariello-Maher.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 13:07:42
Comment by The Enrager
Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 19:07:52

You wrote about population growth. The birth rate is something else.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 19:17:06

A distinction without a difference my friend.

Read and learn.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 19:25:18

No, there’s a difference. You need to do some reading.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 19:40:03


Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 20:03:24

Population growth is the birth rate minus the death rate plus immigration minus emigration.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 20:14:34

And it’s a record lows and falling.

Comment by somedewd
2016-12-29 05:05:55

Besides 1918 (-0.06%), 2010 (0.44%) was lowest growth rate on record.

1930s — 0.59-1.08% growth rate
2010s — 0.44-0.8% growth rate

Avg growth rate for the 1930s — 0.724%
Avg growth rate for the 2010s — 0.726%

Absolute numbers mean dick. Trends show growth at the end of the 30s, while the 2010s have been stagnant. Demographics rule economics, so watch out in 20-40 years if these trends continue.

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 07:52:37

“Population growth is the birth rate minus the death rate plus immigration minus emigration.”

Where is immigration headed under the incoming Trump administration?

What the immigration battle could look like under Trump
By Tal Kopan, CNN
Updated 2:54 PM ET, Tue December 27, 2016

Washington (CNN)The high stakes battle over immigration policy has politicians and thinkers on all sides of the spectrum preparing for battles that could last years — leaving millions of people in the US unsure of whether they’ll be able to stay in the country.

The President-elect has made immigration a focal point throughout his campaign, from his first announcement that he was running in the 2016 race — where he immediately sparked controversy with accusations that some Mexican immigrants were criminals and rapists.

From pledging to build a wall along the Mexican border to saying he would mass-deport millions of immigrants living in the US illegally and saying he would block foreign Muslims from entering the country (a position he later moderated), Trump has repeatedly pledged a hard-line stance on immigration as one of the key reasons to vote for him.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-29 08:44:52

Besides 1918 (-0.06%), 2010 (0.44%) was lowest growth rate on record.

If that’s correct, the current rate is much larger than the record low growth rate.

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 07:48:07

Just wait until Donald Trump puts an end to the steady flood of immigrants into the U.S. during eight years of Obama. That, plus the low birth rate due to young families that can’t afford to start a family in the face of astronomical bubble-valued housing prices, will stick another fork in the Housing Bubble.

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Comment by somedewd
2016-12-29 08:23:38

Interestingly, the birth rate of immigrants has dropped dramatically, putting a fork in the oft-repeated meme that immigrants will save our economic future.

Thought experiment: If the asset bubble corrected enough to make housing attainable, would family creation actually increase? would attainable child care also be necessary? would men or women jump off the rat-race wheel to stay home? or have we produced a society too narcissistic and selfish to reverse a steady decline in birth rate?

Whatever the answer, I think importing cheap labor in hopes they’ll produce lots of consumer babies that further drive our economy is the wrong answer. Smart, sustainable growth might be a better focus.

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 12:04:47

“If the asset bubble corrected enough to make housing attainable, would family creation actually increase?”

There are plenty of other headwinds to starting a family, including the lack of jobs that pay enough to cover the high cost of raising kids, dissolution of the marriage institution, and a $1+ trillion student debt overhang. Lower housing prices won’t erase these factors.

Comment by Apartment 401
2016-12-28 12:04:00

I think the Metropolitan Statistical Area is about 2.5 million, but if you include all of the Front Range blob from Fort Collins to Pueblo, over 4 million.

Comment by In Colorado
2016-12-28 17:04:55

For all practical purposes it’s become one metro area from Fort Collins to Colorado Springs. Pueblo is still a bit separate.

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Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2016-12-28 09:53:27

81,000+ people moved to Oregon so far this year, a new record. Don’t know how many moved out, but you can feel it.

Comment by DinOR
2016-12-28 09:59:36

Seriously? Yeah you can def feel it. Working in the PDX metro area, countless younger co-workers are bemoaning the lack of affordability. Reloading the game was never more dangerous…

Comment by DinOR
2016-12-28 10:02:53

Seriously? 81K would represent like our 5th largest ‘city’! Course we never bother w/ how many threw in the towel…

Comment by Ben Jones
Comment by DinOR
2016-12-28 10:34:22

Yes, spiraling rents have driven younger, newer arrivals into ever greater levels of irrational, magical ‘thinking’. A GRAND to ‘live’ in less than 500 s/f? With no PARKING? Believe it…

Good to see you Ben, haven’t had time to post for awhile, but the way things are going at work, I’ll have LOTS of leisure here shortly?

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 10:52:49

By the looks of those links a house can be rented for $1000/month in Portland.

Comment by DinOR
2016-12-28 11:14:26

Portland’s urban myth of being ‘affordable’ is one that just has to DIE. For a grand you’ll get a ROOF and that’s about it. The (1) home I saw was $2,600. Apts. in iffy neighborhoods run $1,500 give or take. I don’t think you can even find a home in SALEM for a grand?

Which is insane b/c married filing joint your deduction caps out at what, $13 grand give or take? You’re forking out over $31K of which, $18,200 would NOT be tax deductible.

But it appeared to have really nice wood floors.

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 11:34:23

momma and dadda both must make $75k each

Comment by rms
2016-12-28 18:59:25

“momma and dadda both must make $75k each”

A $150k household means hefty income taxes. Slaves.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2016-12-28 21:38:49

DinOR! Good to see you. Where ya been?

The affordability myth left years ago. Why, we (not me) just elected a city commissioner who ran on the solo issue of “the rent is too damn high” and won. Unfortunately her solution is rent control. It sounds like the libertarian voice is coming out to oppose that noise, fortunately.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2016-12-28 21:40:38

Oh, and I still think of your comments back in the day every time a new festival springs up. Fest Fest is, I think, what you called that nonsense.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2016-12-28 21:57:56

In regard to concessions given on rentals, I drove by The Yard, profiled in a recent article here on the HBB, the other night. Very dark. I notice it’s listed in Ben’s link above. Two months free, then $1770 per month for 600 Sq ft. OMFG, that’s insane and has nouveau Portlander all over it. That gets a BWAHAHAHAHA!

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-29 18:27:14

And don’t forget cratering rental rates in Seattle.

Comment by AbsoluteBeginner
2016-12-28 10:17:31

‘Don’t move to Denver, you’ll be really disappointed if you do.’

Thank goodness round-trip flights from Maine to Denver are cheap the time of year I like to hike out there. Hard to get jaded if you visit a place and are heading out to the backcountry and only staying on the peripheries in the city.

Comment by Senior Housing Analyst
2016-12-28 10:16:19

Waldport, OR Housing Prices Crater 5% YoY

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 10:20:37

I am sure glad we are cutting free money to Isreal.

Comment by 2banana
2016-12-28 11:22:08

It’s the joooosss fault again! Just like the Russians.

Math is hard sometimes..

Jews - $2.9B
Muslims - $13.9B

Top 25 Recipient Countries of U.S. Foreign Aid FY 2013 Reported in $US millions
Afghanistan 4533.51
Israel 2961.04
Egypt 1566.24
Jordan 1211.83
West Bank/Gaza 1007.73
Ethiopia 686.53
South Sudan 618.74
Malawi 571.18
Uganda 541.93
South Africa 526.19
Nigeria 518.84
Russia 465.16
Iraq 444.81

Comment by Jesus Navas is my Lord Savior
2016-12-28 11:43:51

AKA subsidies for MIC.

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 12:04:11

CUT IT ALL! But it looks like Trump wont .NO MOOOCHIONG!

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 13:00:40

Gee, I never thought of breaking that down by religion. Which category does South Africa go into?

Comment by taxpayer
2016-12-28 14:45:15

better get trumpf on that
no free sht for any on em

Comment by Jesus Navas is my Lord Savior
2016-12-28 11:45:41

Trump’s gonna be the most pro-Israel president ever.

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 12:34:38

And what better pretext to withdraw from the UN?

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 07:54:39

That’s not going to happen.

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Comment by aNYCdj
2016-12-28 10:26:52

a little OT but very enlightening…..

How a Generation Lost Its Common Culture
February 2, 2016 Patrick Deneen 192 Comments

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 10:40:58

Reagan was a serial tax raiser. As governor of California, Reagan “signed into law the largest tax increase in the history of any state up till then.” Meanwhile, state spending nearly doubled. As president, Reagan “raised taxes in seven of his eight years in office,” including four times in just two years. As former GOP Senator Alan Simpson, who called Reagan “a dear friend,” told NPR, “Ronald Reagan raised taxes 11 times in his administration — I was there.” “Reagan was never afraid to raise taxes,” said historian Douglas Brinkley, who edited Reagan’s memoir. Reagan the anti-tax zealot is “false mythology,” Brinkley said.

watch what they do, not what they say.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 11:13:03

Big Ron lives in your empty skull rent free.

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 12:06:26

He shares a studio with DT, $666 a mo.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 12:16:50

That’s right about your budget.

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Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 13:37:21

income, dummy

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 18:53:00

And I doubt you can even afford that much.

Comment by new attitude
Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 11:15:13

Israel’s continued occupation of territory
china building islands
Russia in Ukraine

what is your favorite\?

Comment by 2banana
2016-12-28 11:43:28

DJT continued occupation in your skull of mush.

My favorite?

Not starting WWIII with cankles.

Not having a president who brags he is pretty good at killing people.

And DJT NOT winning a Noble Peace Prize just for being elected.

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 12:05:23

stomp those little feet when King DT cons you.

should we be getting bids for the wall?

Comment by TheCentralScrutinizer
2016-12-28 15:00:26

Hope and change, 2.0… soon the trumplings will show their boo boo faces when they can no longer ignore the fact that they were lied to.

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Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 15:54:58

Right now, I’m just glad he knocked Cankles out. That right there is a yuuuge plus. And people are keeping and getting jobs, so that’s good. Defcon level dropped to its safest level after he was elected.

If that’s lying, he can lie to me some more. All. Day. Long.

Charles and Eddie: Would I Lie To You?

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 16:28:41

You probably never heard of these Defcon people before.

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 16:38:48

Of course I have. I saw Wargames!

Don’t take everything so seriously. Do the 45 and shake it!

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 16:42:31

I got no boo-boo face. I’m a smilin’, stylin’ and profilin’!

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 16:53:42

It’s a private organization. Was that mentioned in the movie?

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 17:27:22

“It’s a private organization.”


Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 18:25:17

So some group that you never heard of before said some nice, but nonsensical, thing about Trump. You voted to make America great again, but you’re very easily satisfied.

Comment by Ben Jones
2016-12-28 18:29:29

I voted to keep a bloodthirsty war criminal out of power and I’m satisfied. Plus I don’t have to listen to ->Her screech anymore. And the crying videos.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 18:32:59

Trump will commit war crimes, as every president has done since 1945.

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 18:56:04

“So some group that you never heard of before said some nice, but nonsensical, thing about Trump. You voted to make America great again, but you’re very easily satisfied.”

I heard of them before and told you so.

Don’t be a dreary Stiffy Stifferson. Do the 45 and shake it! He isn’t even in office yet and I’ve got a spring in my step and a song in my heart! Haven’t felt this good about the future in 16 years. I’m smilin’, stylin’ and profilin’!

Comment by Ben Jones
2016-12-28 18:56:55

It’s 6:45 Mike. Still rent free? Gonna sit up and talk about Trump on the HBB for another couple of hours? And do it again tomorrow? It’s going to be a long 8 years for you.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 19:10:07

It’s sort of fun. Plus I’m educating people. It probably won’t be 8 years. It might not even be four.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 19:35:07

A very long 8 years.

Comment by redmondjp
2016-12-28 21:53:38

How about 12 years? Pence is very presidential; probably the best potential candidate for the top spot that I’ve seen in the past 20 years.

Comment by Jesus Navas is my Lord Savior
2016-12-28 11:47:29

My favorite is US in afghani/iraqi/yemeni/sudani/libya/syria/ukraine/somali.

Comment by Rental Watch
2016-12-28 12:06:25

The following anecdote is for anyone who thinks rent control is a good idea:

I saw a friend over the holiday. He used to work in SF, but now works in a neighboring city. Rather than move closer to his job, he has kept his apartment in SF. Why?

He’s been protected from higher rents over the past 10+ years due to rent control. So, the market is distorted…rather than moving closer to their job (isn’t that why you rent anyway? to be more mobile), they stay in their cheap apartment, and commute.

But that’s not the bad part.

The bad part is that when he moved into his apartment, it was him plus others renting a 3+ bedroom flat. Well, over the years, the others have moved out, and he’s now living alone…in a flat with 3+ bedrooms.

Why? Because his rent is so low, he’s happy to pay the below market rent and live in all the extra space. This has effectively pulled 2+ bedrooms off the market…contributing to higher rents.

Comment by Justme
2016-12-28 22:56:40

One could also tell equal anecdotes of aging widows that refuse to move out of their giant houses, nor to fill the house with roommate, because (in California) she is paying much below market rate property tax.

Now THAT is a real market distortion that ought to be fixed.

Comment by Young Deezy
2016-12-29 08:43:38

Keep on shilling to kill prop 13, I guarantee it’ll cause YUGE unintended consequences in CA.

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 07:59:36

Friends of mine in the SF Bay Area had a rent controlled apartment in SF back when we lived there. They paid a modest fraction of the market rate for comparable housing. He is a multi-millionaire rock band manager, so I assume they were not there because they somehow qualified for low-income housing…go figure!

Comment by Apartment 401
2016-12-28 12:13:50

Real journalists ask where does Chicago go after 750 homicides?

Straight back to the voting booth to vote Democrat Party for life.

And because there’s only 3 weeks left of it, Forward.


Comment by 2banana
2016-12-28 13:05:55

2banana’s Rule:

Long term democratic rule + insane public unions + huge free sh*t army = misery, ruin and bankruptcy

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 13:34:30

Red states mooch!

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 14:13:24

Ya cracked the code, brother. When it all comes crashing down, you’ll want to be as far away from these urban dystopias as possible.

Comment by Apartment 401
2016-12-28 12:20:29

Real journalists report on how California is the most impoverished state in the country:


Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 12:48:10

if we were all middle class we would be socialists. yuk!

haves and the have nots.

Comment by 2banana
2016-12-28 13:20:13

Like Pravda in the times of the Soviets…

You have to read what they don’t say.


Do they have jobs?

Do they pay anything for the schooling for their kids?

Zoning violations?

Drug issues? Gang issues?

I would love to live in midtown NYC. I can’t afford it. So I live somewhere else.

How come no sad panda articles about me?

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 14:20:37

NYC is nasty!! too many rats in a small cage of filth. think outside the box sometimes. Missoula has a higher quality of life.

Comment by Jesus Navas is my Lord Savior
2016-12-28 15:38:19

But NYC has higher quality of women…looks wise anyway.

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Comment by Rental Watch
2016-12-28 15:09:53

I used to live in East Palo Alto. Contrary to popular belief, the border between EPA and PA is NOT the 101 freeway, but a creek that runs to the west of the freeway.

In any event, I lived there because it was cheap. My wife lived there because it was cheap. And yes, there are drugs. My wife’s building was once taped off due to the hazmat team dealing with a meth lab.

EPA on the West side of 101 was once home to “Whisky Gulch”, which was as classy as it sounded…a source of gang violence, drugs, etc. that was torn down to build offices and a Four Seasons hotel.

That activity moved east of the 101.

EPA has become somewhat more safe over the years (it used to have the highest homicide rate in the country) and certainly less affordable.

Comment by Jesus Navas is my Lord Savior
2016-12-28 15:42:04

Kick the blacks and latinos out and gentrify for suburban whites. How come nobody’s doing this? LOL

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Comment by rms
2016-12-28 19:10:41

Actually the Asians and India Indians are doing exactly that, and the gang’stas realize it too.

Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 16:08:40

I thought Santa Cruz,CA was the murder capital of the world — see Lost Boys.

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Comment by Apartment 401
Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 15:20:52

Related: the so-called Alt-Right will revolt if Trump “eschews white supremacy” - implying that Trump has somehow embraced white supremacy, when it’s very clear that his campaign and agenda are a lot more inclusive and broad-based than what The Narrative propagators would have us believe. There are maybe a few hundred hardcore white nationalist types around this Richard Spensor character who supported Trump, so of course the MSM is acting like they exemplify all 61 million Trump supporters.

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-28 16:49:26

Did someone say “Alt Right”? Lol. They’re gettin’ into it with each other, and no one knows WTF the “Alt-Right” even is. Hilarious.

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 17:06:36

Buzzfeed had a good article on the ill-defined “Alt-Right” although in actual usage the term is being applied to anyone who is conservative, nationalist, disdains Establishment (globalist) cucks and neocons.

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Comment by Young Deezy
2016-12-29 08:50:37

LOL all the people in the ZH article are what are referred to as the “Alt-Lite” by people in the movement. Mostly because they’re viewed as too moderate, not intellectually substantive enough or as hucksters looking to make a quick buck.

Cernovich and MIlo are definitely lumped into the last category. Cernie seems to be a sort of self-help guru shilling his book “The Baboon Mindframe” and Milo may or may not be a fraudster re: his white scholarship fund.

I’m not a huge fan of Spencer but guys like him, Andrew Anglin, Kevin MacDonald, Jared Taylor etc are definitely better representatives of the Alt Right.

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Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-29 10:22:38

I think that Palmetto actually has a good point above - “They’re gettin’ into it with each other, and no one knows WTF the “Alt-Right” even is.” They sound like a motley crew of sc–bags, similar to the degenerate losers drawn to Hitler in his early days.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-29 13:51:01

Hitlery lost. Trump won a landslide victory.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-29 15:11:56

It was very close. There was no landslide.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-29 16:41:02


Comment by azdude
2016-12-28 13:04:05

I love bull markets!

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 15:29:01

I love seeing bagholders who foolishly “invested” in a Ponzi market getting their heads handed to them.

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 14:26:23

Oh dear…the wave of panic-buying FBs trying to lock in low interest rates has failed to materialize….

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 14:33:33

As I predicted…DOW 20,000 looks as illusury as Moscow’s gates did to Napoleon’s army before General Winter and a reinvigorated Russian Army onslaught forced them into a long, bloody, ignoble retreat all the way back to Paris.

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 15:10:11

The “golden years” (read: era of insanely overpriced bubble market) of NYC’s luxury apartment era is over. Forgive my misty eyes.

Comment by Big Fat Ugly Bubble
2016-12-28 16:11:37

It’s been several years, but every time I’ve been to San Francisco, it’s always been a physically disgusting place. I have no idea why people pay so much money to live in a toilet.

“* Property crime runs amok
* An online map is needed to track human feces on city streets
* Discarded syringes are common sightings
* Public urination is so widespread it has damaged subway elevators and escalators, building walls and power poles”

Comment by Apartment 401
2016-12-28 16:46:34

Re-re-post of a classic, as reported by real journalists:

Sigh, Forward…

Comment by Big Fat Ugly Bubble
2016-12-28 17:29:03

I guess they can’t have restrooms in the BART stations because even worse things would happen, so instead the whole station becomes the bathroom. As well as the rest of the city.

Comment by azdude
2016-12-28 17:32:30

I went to santa rosa and homeless were everywhere.

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Comment by new attitude
2016-12-28 18:01:38

I was in South Orange County, CA….. not a big homeless issue, but >50% Chinese, lots of bad Persian drivers too

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 08:01:37

You have to walk from the BART station to the Target store across the street if you want to pee indoors. But it might be hard to gain access to the Target restroom if you look like a homeless person.

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Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 19:26:44

Yeah, but the suburbs aren’t paradise either. Those darn kids won’t stay off my lawn!

Comment by phony scandals
2016-12-28 20:26:20

* An online map is needed to track human feces on city streets

Google Turd?

Comment by azdude
2016-12-28 16:41:36

centrally planned markets will drive u insane!

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 17:14:59

It’s quite a trick, staying sane inside insanity.

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 08:02:37

That right there is the challenge!

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 08:09:42

Insanity is the exception in individuals – but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs, it is the rule.

– Friedrich Nietzsche

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
Comment by azdude
2016-12-28 17:30:07

all these markets live and die by central banks.

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 17:13:27

Oh dear…luxury condo contracts in NYC just collapsed by 25%. This is not bullish despite what that blow-on-her-nails Barbie at CNBC keeps telling me.

Comment by aNYCdj
2016-12-28 18:18:32

Boise’s lays off at least 90 workers in pre-Christmas downsizing

Comment by rms
2016-12-28 19:19:55

After people pay for shelter there is nothing left. New normal.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 19:02:05

“More Bad News For NYC Real Estate As Luxury Co-Op Contracts Collapse 25%”

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 19:16:51

The Republican plot to devour retirees’ nest eggs

Perhaps the most monstrous thing about the American medical system — and the bar for that title is high indeed — is predatory billing.

A great many medical providers adjust their prices based on how defenseless the patient is, and bleed the weakest ones for every last red cent, often with preposterously inflated charges for things like aspirin and bandages. A 2015 study looked at the worst price gougers in the country and found 50 hospitals that charged uninsured people roughly 10 times the actual cost of care.

Key to this practice is something called “balance billing,” and it’s why the American Medical Association is strongly supporting Donald Trump’s pick of Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.) to lead the Department of Health and Human Services, which oversees Medicare. Balance billing is forbidden for Medicare enrollees, but Price wants to allow it — thus allowing doctors and hospitals to devour the nest eggs of thousands of American seniors.

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-28 19:27:57

Privatizing the VA would be almost as bad an idea as privatizing social security. Look how barbaric privatized prisons turned out to be.

Comment by 2banana
2016-12-28 19:41:30

The democrats,

who passed obamacare without one republican vote

Which has had 30%+ rate increases year after year

Now care about how much health care costs.

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-28 20:05:53

Which has had 30%+ rate increases year after year

You may be referring to the exchanges, which are just one part of the law. In any case, 30% sounds like a fabrication.

Comment by somedewd
2016-12-29 06:15:36

“First, unlike Adler and Ginsburg’s approach, Brookings 2014 study used actual data and found that “enrollment-weighted premiums in the individual health insurance market increased by 24.4 percent beyond what they would have had they simply followed…trends.” Second, S&P Global Institute found that average individual market medical costs increased substantially between 2013 and 2015, up an estimated 69%. ”

“The Manhattan Institute compared the average of the five least expensive pre-ACA plans in 2013 with the least expensive plans available on exchanges in 2014. Manhattan’s researchers adjusted the pre-ACA plan premiums upward to account for the population facing surcharges or denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition. Manhattan estimated that the average state individual market premium increased 41% between 2013 and 2014. A county-level analysis suggested that premiums increased by 49%.”

“The 2014 Brookings study on this same subject by Amanda Kowalski—and unaddressed by Adler and Ginsburg—used actual pre-ACA individual market premium data, finding that “[a]cross all states, from before the reform to the first half of 2014, enrollment-weighted premiums in the individual health insurance market increased by 24.4 percent beyond what they would have had they simply followed state-level seasonally adjusted trends.” According to Kowalski, the Manhattan Institute estimates are higher likely because they were not enrollment-weighted, and individuals in areas with high premiums likely selected cheaper plans.”

“Economists at the University of Pennsylvania, also using actual pre-ACA individual market data, estimated that the total expected price of individual market coverage (premiums plus out-of-pocket payments) increased by 14% to 28% as a result of the ACA.”

“The data shows a huge increase in PMPM costs in the individual market between 2013 and 2015. According to S&P, PMPM costs increased 38% between 2013 and 2014, and another 23% between 2014 and 2015. The two-year increase (69%) is the product of the two single-year increases.”

– There’s no doubt ACA has caused individual costs to skyrocket. For anyone paying attention during debate this was inevitable.

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Comment by DELurker
2016-12-29 12:10:22

I was not impressed by the Forbes article. I would have to analyze these conflicting studies to make a definitive conclusion. Like most people, I do not have time for that. But - I must say that most states’ regulations permitted cherry picking in varying ways. In other words, adding people with pre-existing conditions to the pool adds significant costs to the average premium. Comparisons of pre-ACA and post-ACA premiums are very difficult and require a lot of adjustments that may not be realistic.

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 12:15:32

Dumb question of the day: Why do government programs with “affordable” in their descriptions inevitably make things less affordable?

Comment by phony scandals
2016-12-28 20:29:42

“who passed obamacare without one republican vote”

and a good Grubering it was.

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-28 19:29:16

I had a meeting today with a colleague at his home in Rancho Santa Fe. I was struck by the number of For Sale signs on the lawns of nearby homes. I must have seen ten places for sale within a quarter mile of his place. Could be due in part to the new Pardee Homes McMansion tract home development at the top of the hill just to the south. The billboard in front of the construction site says, “From the $1.8 millions.”

This area is about two miles due east of Del Mar.

Del Mar home sales show how San Diego luxury market is cooling
By Wendy Forsythe
Published: Nov 8, 2016 9:10 a.m. ET

The greater San Diego area remains a seller’s market, led by significant price growth and low inventories. Although prices keep going up, the number of available properties keeps going down. One market segment is starting to slow down somewhat, however: luxury homes. According to the Greater San Diego Association of Realtors, properties priced at $1.25 million and above were the only sector to see an increase in inventory from August 2015 to this past August.

The beach side community of Del Mar reflects this slowdown, as the majority of its properties list for well over $1 million. In fact, the median listing price in Del Mar was $2,148,000 this past August, a stark contrast to the median listing price of $598,000 for San Diego itself.

As further evidence of a seller’s market in San Diego, this past June, the S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller Indices reported that San Diego County and San Francisco each had a 6.4% home-price increase during the previous 12 months, the largest increases in California. While this past August, housing inventory in San Diego County was down 15.9% year over year, according to the Greater San Diego Association of Realtors.

Luxury homes sit the longest on the market, with an average of 57 days until sale this past August, compared with just 34 days for all properties. This inventory is putting downward pressure on the percentage of the original listing prices these properties are receiving. This past August, the segment averaged 93.1% of original list price, which seems relatively healthy until compared with the 97.1% that overall properties received.

A popular community because of its numerous beaches, multiple attractions and excellent schools, Del Mar is currently trending toward a buyer’s market because of increasing inventory. This past August, the town had a 5.6-month supply of inventory for single-family homes, a 21.7% increase over August 2015. Although the condominium/townhouse supply was just three months this past August, that represented a whopping 57.9% increase over August 2015.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 19:33:51

“Pending Home Sales Tumble As Surging Mortgage Rates Paralyze Housing Market”

There is no end to cratering housing demand.

Comment by phony scandals
2016-12-28 20:39:12

As America’s first family enjoys its eighth and final vacation in Hawaii…

Trump says Sprint will bring 5,000 jobs back to the US; OneWeb will create 3,000 jobs

Jacob Pramuk | @jacobpramuk
5 Hours Ago

President-elect Donald Trump said Wednesday that Sprint will bring 5,000 jobs back to the United States from overseas, while another company OneWeb will add 3,000 jobs in the U.S.

Comment by The Enrager
2016-12-28 20:54:07

Proud to be an American once again.

May God bless Mr. President Trump. May God bless America.

Comment by phony scandals
2016-12-28 20:53:11

George Soros Conjures Hitler In Attack On ‘Ascendant Populists’, Warns “Democracy Is Now In Crisis”

by Tyler Durden
Dec 28, 2016 7:45 PM

James Stafford • 2 hours ago

This is firstly a desperate bid for sympathy because the new internet media is damaging the Soros Brand. He can see that the world now can find out easily what a shmuck this guy is. Secondly this is a last ditch attempt to rally Global government sympathy. And tell everyone that Freedom, Boarders, Language and Culture are racist Ideologies. (”But the US will be preoccupied with internal struggles in the near future, and targeted minorities will suffer.”) He stated this because HE is Organizing and Funding the “Internal Struggles” inside the US. Whipping up Anarchy. And HE will be the one saying that the backlash to it is targeting Minorities. He will play and pay both ends to ruin America! He KNOWS a lot of Corruption is about to brought into the light.. a lot of it connected to him through very Corrupt People. He KNOWS the Russians have every one of the 650,000 emails on Weiners Laptop, and they know every Corrupt thing Hillary, Obama, and George Soros has done since Hillary became Secretary of Stae. He’s just trying to get ahead of it. Thats all this was.. Getting ahead of the Mountain of Corruption The Russians have on them. And Trump will have on them and Globalism in general. Every Proof of corruption is going to be beaten to death with “Its Fake News!” Every email showing corruption written by Hillary’s own hand.. “Fake News! Russia forged it, so its Fake!” Every bit of Criminal evidence to Indict Hillary’s circle and put them in Jail will be called Fake News as well. The whole sudden Fake News Construct from the left is to Inoculate the coming FLOOD of Criminal Evidence of a lot of people ON the left.

Comment by phony scandals
2016-12-29 07:53:01


Billionaire globalist pens panicked rant

Paul Joseph Watson | - DECEMBER 29, 2016

Soros writes that in voting for Trump, Americans “elected a con artist and would-be dictator as its president,” and that his defeat of Hillary Clinton means America will be “unable to protect and promote democracy in the rest of the world” (because that policy worked so well in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya).

The irony of an ultra-rich elitist who has bankrolled the overthrow of innumerable governments insisting he cares about “democracy” and the will of the people is particularly rich.

The whole tone of the piece is clearly fraught with concern that the populist movement sweeping the west poses a direct threat to the plutocratic new world order that Soros has spent his entire life helping to build.

He concludes by warning that “the EU is on the verge of breakdown” due to stagnant economic growth and the out of control refugee crisis (that Soros himself again helped create in the first place as a way to obtain political power).

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-29 08:43:10

What a joke. What a complete, seething joke this person’s existence is. Doesn’t it strike anyone as odd that he admitted to having been a Nazi collaborator on 60 minutes and yet he has never been hunted down, arrested and put on trial like others have? I find that fascinating. Nary a peep from the Simon Wiesenthal Center?

Comment by rms
2016-12-29 08:36:03

Is Soros losing money these days?

Comment by phony scandals
2016-12-29 16:45:57

“Is Soros losing money these days?”

He’s losing control.

Comment by azdude
2016-12-29 06:04:32

dow 20k someday?

Comment by palmetto
2016-12-29 07:56:41

end the fed someday?

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-29 08:04:05

I don’t think the Fed will survive the coming (Fed-caused) financial crash. And 61 million Trump voters won’t be inclined to bend over for the Wall Street-Federal Reserve Looting Syndicate like the Obama Zombies and McCain Mutants did in 2008.

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-29 07:55:23

Oh dear…the Chicago Teacher’s Pension Plan is significantly less well funded than what its trustees claim; hence Chicago homeowners could see a signifcant drop in the value of their homes. Repeat after me: houses represent large, illiquid assets for the extraction of wealth to feed the insatiable appetites of Democrat patronage and graft party machines.

Comment by Professor Bear
2016-12-29 08:13:03

Would it be wiser to buy a used car now, or to wait for prices to stop falling before buying?

If you really want to save money, my advice is to wait for the onset of the next recession before buying.

The time is right to buy a used car
Russ Mitchell
December 27, 2016

Looking for a deal on a used car? Now’s a good time to buy.

After years of climbing higher, used-car prices have been heading down. This year used-car prices declined about 4% on average compared with 2015, and the trend may continue for another year or two, industry watchers said.

This is the first material decline we’ve seen since the recession,” said Jonathan Banks, an analyst at J.D. Power.

The company’s Used Car Guide looks at the prices of pre-owned cars up to 8 years old. This year, when it tracked the prices of 2008-16 model year cars, it found that prices had fallen in 14 out of 16 categories when compared with 2015, when the guide tracked the prices of 2007-15 model year cars.

In the two other categories — mainstream midsize vans and mainstream large utility vehicles — there was no change.

The reason for the price drops? Simple supply and demand, with heavy emphasis on the “supply” side. Used cars and trucks are flooding the market, for two big reasons.

First, when the recession hit in 2008, new-car sales were hit hard. Consumers held on to their cars longer, and as a result, fewer cars trickled down into the used-car market. Continuing demand for used cars pushed prices higher. Now that dynamic has reversed.

Second, auto companies have pushed low-monthly-payment auto leasing in a big way. In 2011 leasing accounted for about 20% of the new-car market; now, it’s approaching 35%, according to Experian Automotive.

Leases typically run one to three years, after which the vehicles are returned and resold. More cars and trucks coming off lease means more late-model vehicles available for sale on used-car lots: 3.1 million of them this year, about 570,000 more than in 2015, according to Manheim Consulting.

Prices fell more dramatically for cars than they did for sport utility vehicles and trucks — subcompact cars most of all, according to J.D. Power’s used-car guide. That means if you want a smaller car, you’ll find good deals.

Comment by somedewd
2016-12-29 08:32:46

Recently sold my 4 year old, paid-off luxury sports sedan to get into a cheaper compact that better fit my needs. Sold the car private party because none of the 20 dealers I talked to wanted to cut a check for the difference in value. That single factor tipped me off that the used-car boom was over.

It was also nice getting a new car at triple net, 27% off MSRP out the door with all TTL, etc. included. Would’ve done a used car deal but couldn’t find a good-condition, late model manual transmission anywhere that wanted to negotiate using manheim pricing.

Comment by rms
2016-12-29 08:53:32

“…getting a new car at triple net…”

Buying or leasing the payee is responsible for all the taxes; auto rentals are different being short term. Or am I missing something?

Comment by somedewd
2016-12-29 09:59:28

Triple net is what dealer actually pays for a vehicle, not the BS “invoice” pricing advertised.

“net” == invoice - dealer holdback
“net net” == invoice - dealer holdback - advertising
“net net net” == invoice - dealer holdback - advertising - rebates/dealer cash/other manufacturer incentives

At model year end, dealers are happy to move metal for a measly $50 because volume numbers, customer satisfaction, non-carry charges for interest, etc. will help the bottom line.

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Comment by rms
2016-12-29 13:04:00

Thanks for the detailed reply. Saved.

Comment by Michael Viking
2016-12-29 19:18:40

Triple net is what dealer actually pays for a vehicle, not the BS “invoice” pricing advertised.

How do you know you got triple net and weren’t BS’d? I’m very curious since I’m interested in purchasing a new car soon.

Comment by Raymond K Hessel
2016-12-29 08:13:20

Well look here - a budget check nominee who is a goldbug who believes in sound money. Are the deranged money printers at the Fed going to be reined in at long last?

Comment by MightyMike
2016-12-29 08:57:30

A Year in the Life of Detroit: How the Auto Industry Won 2016

Barring an unexpected, December surprise, 2016 will go out like a lion for the U.S. auto industry, with automakers collectively racking up their third consecutive year of record sales.

That’s an all the more massive achievement considering the decade began with the worst downturn the U.S. car market had suffered since the Great Depression.

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